Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Blanch32 on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 10:56

Giant Moose wrote:I think blanch would make a better attorney than a guy who dresses up in a super hero costume, but that's just me.

Attorneys are like trcmb. Spineless followers
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 10:57

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Blanch32 wrote:Fuck this prosecutor. Guarantee scum. Timing isn't a coincidence
this was my first thought..

SCum is directly responsible for this... probably Delaney too.




Agreed. UM boosters setting up a sting to get former MSU athletes. No
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Robert J Sakimano on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 10:59

The_Dude wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:this was my first thought..

SCum is directly responsible for this... probably Delaney too.




Agreed. UM boosters setting up a sting to get former MSU athletes. No
yeah - I don't think they take basketball and football quite as seriously as we do.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by xsanguine on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 10:59

kingstonlake wrote:I have a question though.  If the chick thought they were leaving from the bar to go back to the golf course (at 1am )...... And they end up at hotel instead, why did she go into the hotel room with him? Seems like there are multiple red flags here waaaay before you get into a motel room for an assault, if you're a chick

The deck is stacked against men in this regard. In most cases if both individuals are drunk, only the man suffers any legal consequences. In some states, women can even withdraw consent after consensual sex has taken place. It's an amazing time to be alive...

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:01

Blanch32 wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:this was my first thought..

SCum is directly responsible for this... probably Delaney too.




Bob, here's the imediate issues:

1. Not even the county prosecutor.
2. VolunteerEd for this case even though Wayne has enough work load.
3. High profile defendant, prosecutor notes that in the press release. Why does that even factor in?
4. Investigation took 6 months, and the timing of the charges are questionable. If the evident is there why wait 6 months? Why wait until after April so it isn't going to be front page news?
5. Prosecutor is a known sex assault crime advocate, what a better opportunity to advance her agenda?
6. Look at all the crimes he's being charged with. Explain to me how false imprisonment is in there if the victim escaped mere hour later.
7. Went to uofm and ND , cleaves is star at msu.


Want me to continue with the actual case now?


You sound like the UM nutjobs who think Hollis influenced the selection committee to screw everyone B1G team but MSU.

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:02

xsanguine wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:I have a question though.  If the chick thought they were leaving from the bar to go back to the golf course (at 1am )...... And they end up at hotel instead, why did she go into the hotel room with him? Seems like there are multiple red flags here waaaay before you get into a motel room for an assault, if you're a chick

The deck is stacked against men in this regard. In most cases if both individuals are drunk, only the man suffers any legal consequences. In some states, women can even withdraw consent after consensual sex has taken place. It's an amazing time to be alive...

Link?

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by xsanguine on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:13

The_Dude wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

The deck is stacked against men in this regard. In most cases if both individuals are drunk, only the man suffers any legal consequences. In some states, women can even withdraw consent after consensual sex has taken place. It's an amazing time to be alive...

Link?


Does the prospect turn you on?

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:14

http://www.wxyz.com/news/witness-says-she-saw-fmr-msu-spartan-star-mateen-cleaves-chase-woman-while-naked-on-day-of-assault

Waiting for apologists to say this woman was a Delaney or UM 'plant' as a witness..
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:17

xsanguine wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Link?


Does the prospect turn you on?


No, I just dont ever see how that defense works. Thats why I was wondering if you had some sort of proof that it held up in a court of law.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by xsanguine on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:22

The_Dude wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Does the prospect turn you on?


No, I just dont ever see how that defense works. Thats why I was wondering if you had some sort of proof that it held up in a court of law.

I don't. I'm referring to the consent laws in California... I'm exaggerating their reach, as usual. I'm referring to a case, and I'll try to look it up (on mobile), where two 18 year old kids had sex, she was texting her friends saying she was going to go have sex... Then she woke up, felt ashamed and claimed rape and the kid was kicked out of school. It's more a university thing than a California state law.

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:23

xsanguine wrote:
The_Dude wrote:


No, I just dont ever see how that defense works. Thats why I was wondering if you had some sort of proof that it held up in a court of law.

I don't. I'm referring to the consent laws in California... I'm exaggerating their reach, as usual. I'm referring to a case, and I'll try to look it up (on mobile), where two 18 year old kids had sex, she was texting her friends saying she was going to go have sex... Then she woke up, felt ashamed and claimed rape and the kid was kicked out of school. It's more a university thing than a California state law.


I believe that because universities don't have due process.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Robert J Sakimano on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:26

The_Dude wrote:http://www.wxyz.com/news/witness-says-she-saw-fmr-msu-spartan-star-mateen-cleaves-chase-woman-while-naked-on-day-of-assault

Waiting for apologists to say this woman was a Delaney or UM 'plant' as a witness..
The witness tells us the woman tried escaping Room 121 three times, running outside with little to no clothes, but was allegedly chased down by a naked Cleaves.The witness also claimed it was all caught on surveillance video.

We talked to the owner of the motel, who confirmed detectives looked at surveillance, but wouldn't say if it led to any evidence.

As with a lot of things, only two people know what really happened. It's going to be played out in the court of public opinion where a lot of people already have their minds made up either way, unfortunately.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by xsanguine on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:26

The_Dude wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

I don't. I'm referring to the consent laws in California... I'm exaggerating their reach, as usual. I'm referring to a case, and I'll try to look it up (on mobile), where two 18 year old kids had sex, she was texting her friends saying she was going to go have sex... Then she woke up, felt ashamed and claimed rape and the kid was kicked out of school. It's more a university thing than a California state law.


I believe that because universities don't have due process.

Yep. So two kids can get drunk and have sex... The only one is responsible for their actions because they have a penis.

Seems like we should apply that to drunk driving with women, too, while we're at it. What's the difference, ya know?

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:28

xsanguine wrote:
The_Dude wrote:


I believe that because universities don't have due process.

Yep. So two kids can get drunk and have sex... The only one is responsible for their actions because they have a penis.

Seems like we should apply that to drunk driving with women, too, while we're at it. What's the difference, ya know?

Isnt it funny how as a society people always scream about equal treatment for minorities and women...but when it 'benefits' the minority or female, they are held to different standards and treated like lesser people not capable of making their own decisions?

The hypocrisy and irony is astounding.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Robert J Sakimano on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:29

The_Dude wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Yep. So two kids can get drunk and have sex... The only one is responsible for their actions because they have a penis.

Seems like we should apply that to drunk driving with women, too, while we're at it. What's the difference, ya know?

Isnt it funny how as a society people always scream about equal treatment for minorities and women...but when it 'benefits' the minority or female, they are held to different standards and treated like lesser people not capable of making their own decisions?

The hypocrisy and irony is astounding.
I'm more worried about which football team prosecuting attorney's might pull for. Therein lies the key to actual discrimination.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by xsanguine on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 11:33

The_Dude wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Yep. So two kids can get drunk and have sex... The only one is responsible for their actions because they have a penis.

Seems like we should apply that to drunk driving with women, too, while we're at it. What's the difference, ya know?

Isnt it funny how as a society people always scream about equal treatment for minorities and women...but when it 'benefits' the minority or female, they are held to different standards and treated like lesser people not capable of making their own decisions?

The hypocrisy and irony is astounding.

I agree. It's why whenever I get a screaming feminist banshee in my face I tend to ask them which laws they're looking to change that discriminate against women but they refer to very vague things like "the patriarchy". There's a lot of parallels between neo-feminist and people like the BLM movement.

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Nordic on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 12:36

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
Blanch32 wrote:

Bob, here's the imediate issues:

1. Not even the county prosecutor.
2. VolunteerEd for this case even though Wayne has enough work load.
3. High profile defendant, prosecutor notes that in the press release. Why does that even factor in?
4. Investigation took 6 months, and the timing of the charges are questionable. If the evident is there why wait 6 months? Why wait until after April so it isn't going to be front page news?
5. Prosecutor is a known sex assault crime advocate, what a better opportunity to advance her agenda?
6. Look at all the crimes he's being charged with. Explain to me how false imprisonment is in there if the victim escaped mere hour later.
7. Went to uofm and ND , cleaves is star at msu.


Want me to continue with the actual case now?

Today... in a very special Blanch post, he talks like a human being with actual thought behind his words.

affraid
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Nordic on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 12:45

The_Dude wrote:http://www.wxyz.com/news/witness-says-she-saw-fmr-msu-spartan-star-mateen-cleaves-chase-woman-while-naked-on-day-of-assault

Waiting for apologists to say this woman was a Delaney or UM 'plant' as a witness..

Based on that article, sounds like there is video cameras. Those should be pretty telling either way.

Why didn't the witness call 911? That would be the first damn thing I did.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Death Roe on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 12:48

I didn't realize the Dude/Douche hated Mateen so much. Although it isn't surprising coming from a UM fan.

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I mean, the first thing with pea soup is the texture, okay?
I've had watery pea soup, it's AWFUL.
Uh, I've had gelatinous, thick pea soup, it's TERRIBLE.
Pea soup, much like clam chowder, needs to have that consistency first, that you can stand the spoon up in it, but the spoon soon tilts, that's the consistency you want.
Number two: Uh, pea soup on it's own can be a little bland. It wants, uh, a fairly aggressive peppering and salting.
Number three: Pea soup needs a fine dice of ham. Not bacon, not any other meat, not turkey. It needs a fine dice of ham.
Uh, number four: Uh, pea soup scorches easily. You don't wanna heat it on a high heat. You wanna heat it on medium low, just until it's warmed through.
Uh, number five: Pea soup is best made, uh, by hand, not out of a Campbell's can. And the key to pea soup, you want a ham bone, uh, for the stock you make, uh, to, to boil your peas.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 13:38

Death Roe wrote:I didn't realize the Dude/Douche hated Mateen so much. Although it isn't surprising coming from a UM fan.

I don't.

However, I don't give special treatment to him because he was an MSU athlete. Most people here are and it's kind of sick.

If Cleaves was a former UM player, every person here criticizing me would have buried the guy 6 feet under as soon as the news broke.

Too many people think sports are real life and its pathetic, really.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by NigelUno on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 13:40

The_Dude wrote:
Death Roe wrote:I didn't realize the Dude/Douche hated Mateen so much. Although it isn't surprising coming from a UM fan.

I don't.

However, I don't give special treatment to him because he was an MSU athlete. Most people here are and it's kind of sick.

If Cleaves was a former UM player, every person here criticizing me would have buried the guy 6 feet under as soon as the news broke.

Too many people think sports are real life and its pathetic, really.

But your "special treatment" is basically to convict him already.

Funny how that works.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 13:43

NigelUno wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

I don't.

However, I don't give special treatment to him because he was an MSU athlete. Most people here are and it's kind of sick.

If Cleaves was a former UM player, every person here criticizing me would have buried the guy 6 feet under as soon as the news broke.

Too many people think sports are real life and its pathetic, really.

But your "special treatment" is basically to convict him already.

Funny how that works.

Yep, Ive read the witness report and there is video evidence.

Did you also not convict Ray Rice after the video came out? Still waited for his day in court? Neutral
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by NigelUno on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 13:54

The_Dude wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

But your "special treatment" is basically to convict him already.

Funny how that works.

Yep, Ive read the witness report and there is video evidence.

Did you also not convict Ray Rice after the video came out? Still waited for his day in court? Neutral

Wow. I tried to give you an out. I thought you would argue that I said you basically convicted him. But you just doubled down. Congrats.

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Nordic on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 13:55

The_Dude wrote:
Yep, Ive read the witness report and there is video evidence.

Did you also not convict Ray Rice after the video came out? Still waited for his day in court? Neutral

Have you seen the video evidence or any other evidence?

(I asked this question on page 1 and was ignored, so I'm not expecting an answer this time around)?
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 14:01

NigelUno wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Yep, Ive read the witness report and there is video evidence.

Did you also not convict Ray Rice after the video came out? Still waited for his day in court? Neutral

Wow. I tried to give you an out. I thought you would argue that I said you basically convicted him. But you just doubled down. Congrats.


Tell me how everyone here including yourself would react if it was a UM player.

You won't answer, because you don't need to...it's an obvious answer.

I don't make exceptions for people based on where they played college ball. Others do. Oh well.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by NigelUno on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 14:03

The_Dude wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Wow.  I tried to give you an out.  I thought you would argue that I said you basically convicted him.  But you just doubled down.  Congrats.


Tell me how everyone here including yourself would react if it was a UM player.

You won't answer, because you don't need to...it's an obvious answer.

I don't make exceptions for people based on where they played college ball.  Others do.  Oh well.

Have you seen the video evidence or any other evidence?

And we're talking about how YOU are reacting. You convicted him already.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Nordic on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 15:05

Sounds like someone wanted to make this a big press event...

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2016/03/16/prosecutor-blasts-back-door-arraignment-cleaves/81863872/

Cleaves' arraignment was originally set for Thursday, but it happened this morning in 67th District Court in Flint instead... Worthy said in a statement issued after the hearing. “There was an agreement with all of the parties that the defendant would turn himself in and be arraigned in open court‎ tomorrow (Thursday) - not for him to have a back door arraignment. The public has a right to know and frankly, I am extremely disappointed that this was handled so clandestinely today.”... But Cleaves’ attorney, Frank Manley, fired back and said there was no agreement with anyone. “She (Worthy) doesn’t set the terms of this,” he said when reached by phone this afternoon, adding that a press release and charges were issued without calling him, saying that belies any sense of transparency... The prosecutor’s office sent out an e-mail alerting media to the change this morning and said its office had “just been informed” of the date change. Some reporters made it to the hearing held in open court; others did not.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Robert J Sakimano on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 15:07

The_Dude wrote:
Death Roe wrote:I didn't realize the Dude/Douche hated Mateen so much. Although it isn't surprising coming from a UM fan.

I don't.

However, I don't give special treatment to him because he was an MSU athlete. Most people here are and it's kind of sick.

If Cleaves was a former UM player, every person here criticizing me would have buried the guy 6 feet under as soon as the news broke.

Too many people think sports are real life and its pathetic, really.
I would say that nobody here takes MSU sports and the fine scholar athletes that play them as seriously as I do.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Death Roe on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 15:31

The_Dude's motto is "Guilty until proven innocent."

POS human being.

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Where to start?
I mean, the first thing with pea soup is the texture, okay?
I've had watery pea soup, it's AWFUL.
Uh, I've had gelatinous, thick pea soup, it's TERRIBLE.
Pea soup, much like clam chowder, needs to have that consistency first, that you can stand the spoon up in it, but the spoon soon tilts, that's the consistency you want.
Number two: Uh, pea soup on it's own can be a little bland. It wants, uh, a fairly aggressive peppering and salting.
Number three: Pea soup needs a fine dice of ham. Not bacon, not any other meat, not turkey. It needs a fine dice of ham.
Uh, number four: Uh, pea soup scorches easily. You don't wanna heat it on a high heat. You wanna heat it on medium low, just until it's warmed through.
Uh, number five: Pea soup is best made, uh, by hand, not out of a Campbell's can. And the key to pea soup, you want a ham bone, uh, for the stock you make, uh, to, to boil your peas.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 16:17

The_Dude wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

But your "special treatment" is basically to convict him already.

Funny how that works.

Yep, Ive read the witness report and there is video evidence.

Did you also not convict Ray Rice after the video came out? Still waited for his day in court? Neutral
The_Dude wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

But your "special treatment" is basically to convict him already.

Funny how that works.

Yep, Ive read the witness report and there is video evidence.

Did you also not convict Ray Rice after the video came out? Still waited for his day in court? Neutral
Have you read any statement from Mateen? Seen the video evidence? Or just taking what the accuser says as fact?

Who here is giving him special treatment? Saying to wait until this plays out is special treatment? Pretty much everyone except you is following THE most basic tenet of this country's justice system (innocent until proven guilty), but you threw that tenet out the window based on one side of the argument. YOU are the only giving special treatment here. YOU are the sick one. Everyone else thinks he should be treated like EVERYONE ELSE has a right to be treated under the low.

In your twisted, fucked up mind, you'll probably take the above comment to mean that I'm saying that he should be allowed to do anything he wants to women.

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 16:22

The_Dude wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Wow.  I tried to give you an out.  I thought you would argue that I said you basically convicted him.  But you just doubled down.  Congrats.


Tell me how everyone here including yourself would react if it was a UM player.

You won't answer, because you don't need to...it's an obvious answer.

I don't make exceptions for people based on where they played college ball.  Others do.  Oh well.

Gotcha, so you pretty much just convict everyone if they're arrested/charged at all?  You really are a fucked up son of a bitch.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by The_Dude on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 16:53

MiamiSpartan wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Tell me how everyone here including yourself would react if it was a UM player.

You won't answer, because you don't need to...it's an obvious answer.

I don't make exceptions for people based on where they played college ball.  Others do.  Oh well.

Gotcha, so you pretty much just convict everyone if they're arrested/charged at all?  You really are a fucked up son of a bitch.


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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Guest on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 16:58

MiamiSpartan wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Tell me how everyone here including yourself would react if it was a UM player.

You won't answer, because you don't need to...it's an obvious answer.

I don't make exceptions for people based on where they played college ball.  Others do.  Oh well.

Gotcha, so you pretty much just convict everyone if they're arrested/charged at all?  You really are a fucked up son of a bitch.

I can't handle the irony of this board.


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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by tGreenWay on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 17:02

Blanch32 wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:



Can someone give me a blanchlation, because I have no idea what this guy is asking me. TIA.

We are in agreement. I bashing tblude


Got it. That makes much more sense, even if The_Douche will never understand. He's too blinded by his hate for MSU and love of all things scum.

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by tGreenWay on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 17:04

duffy munn wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:


I don't think it. I know it. He's proven that repeatedly. But well-played tossing it back in that POS's lap.

tDude doesn't even try to hide it anymore.


He is not smart enough to hide it, which is why is was so easy to see even when he was trying to hide it. The _Douche is a racist POS; he should just embrace it.

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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Guest on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 17:06

I officially declare tDude winner of this thread. He put forth clear evidence supporting his claims while the losers threw unfounded insults towards him.  He is right, take off the green glasses. We have a couple bad apples, its not the end of the world.  Good job winning tDude!
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Watch Out Pylon! on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 17:33

SpartanDawgs265 wrote:I officially declare tDude winner of this thread. He put forth clear evidence supporting his claims while the losers threw unfounded insults towards him.  He is right, take off the green glasses. We have a couple bad apples, its not the end of the world.  Good job winning tDude!

You hang from Trump's nuts. Your opinion doesn't count.  Sorry, broheim.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by kingstonlake on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 17:37

So apparently she was getting a ride back to the golf course from Cleaves while her boyfriend gave someone else a ride home (huh, what?) Then ends up at a dumpy motel (that's not a golf course) and "escapes" no less than 3 times with hardly any clothes on......

1.) I don't think cleaves was known as a defensive stalwart at MSU but he he couldn't keep a female victim in a motel on three occasions?

2.) How did we go from getting a ride from a bar to a golf course from a guy you met less than 12 hours earlier when you boyfriend was with you

3.) How did we go from ride to the golf course to naked in a hotel room?

I don't know man. This doesn't seem like a hard case to defend. Albeit not all the information is available and public.
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Blanch32 on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 17:50

The_Dude wrote:
Blanch32 wrote:

Bob, here's the imediate issues:

1. Not even the county prosecutor.
2. VolunteerEd for this case even though Wayne has enough work load.
3. High profile defendant, prosecutor notes that in the press release. Why does that even factor in?
4. Investigation took 6 months, and the timing of the charges are questionable. If the evident is there why wait 6 months? Why wait until after April so it isn't going to be front page news?
5. Prosecutor is a known sex assault crime advocate, what a better opportunity to advance her agenda?
6. Look at all the crimes he's being charged with. Explain to me how false imprisonment is in there if the victim escaped mere hour later.
7. Went to uofm and ND , cleaves is star at msu.


Want me to continue with the actual case now?


You sound like the UM nutjobs who think Hollis influenced the selection committee to screw everyone B1G team but MSU.


So tinfoil hat is how you respond to each one of my points? Man uofm Dearborn is bad at making school
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Re: Mateen being charged w/sexual assault

Post by Blanch32 on Wed 16 Mar 2016 - 17:54

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
The_Dude wrote:http://www.wxyz.com/news/witness-says-she-saw-fmr-msu-spartan-star-mateen-cleaves-chase-woman-while-naked-on-day-of-assault

Waiting for apologists to say this woman was a Delaney or UM 'plant' as a witness..
The witness tells us the woman tried escaping Room 121 three times, running outside with little to no clothes, but was allegedly chased down by a naked Cleaves.The witness also claimed it was all caught on surveillance video.

We talked to the owner of the motel, who confirmed detectives looked at surveillance, but wouldn't say if it led to any evidence.

As with a lot of things, only two people know what really happened. It's going to be played out in the court of public opinion where a lot of people already have their minds made up either way, unfortunately.

How did this witness know she"escaped " 3 times? Was the witness inside the room?
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