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State of Georgia bends over for the NFL

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Post by Dr. Strangelove 2016-03-28, 15:02

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25533691/georgia-governor-to-veto-anti-gay-bill-that-threatened-atlanta-super-bowl-bid

I wish The love that dare not speak its name would just shut up.
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Post by Ass Dan 2016-03-28, 15:20

Good.
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Post by Nordic 2016-03-28, 15:23

So the NFL did something positive. That's good.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! 2016-03-28, 15:40

I knew Georgia was a backwards state but fuck man. Kinda sad that bill made it this far.
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Post by Dr. Strangelove 2016-03-28, 15:43

The bill is not "anti-gay" specifically and there are laws on the books in 33 states just like this one.

Riddle me this Batman....should a Muslim t-shirt printer be forced to make a t-shirt with a picture of the Prophet Mohammad on it?

Should a Catholic high school be forced to hire a practicing homosexual teacher?

Should a Christian baker be forced to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple?


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Post by Travis of the Cosmos 2016-03-28, 15:58

No

Yes

Yes

One of those things actually has something to do with the practice of their actual religion. The other two are just an excuse to be a hateful monster, which is quite against their own religion.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos 2016-03-28, 16:01

Also, since that's the direction you want this thread to go, it's going to the bin.

I believe that that is the will of the people. I may be wrong. I can also move it back if I am. Relax spazzes. This is barely modding and it seems that's what people want. Shut up.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! 2016-03-28, 16:06

Dr. Strangelove wrote:The bill is not "anti-gay" specifically and there are laws on the books in 33 states just like this one.

Riddle me this Batman....should a Muslim t-shirt printer be forced to make a t-shirt with a picture of the Prophet Mohammad on it?

Should a Catholic high school be forced to hire a practicing homosexual teacher?

Should a Christian baker be forced to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple?



So this is where this thread went.

I'm sorry that you seem to be a homophobe. You should probably work on that.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos 2016-03-28, 16:10

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:The bill is not "anti-gay" specifically and there are laws on the books in 33 states just like this one.

Riddle me this Batman....should a Muslim t-shirt printer be forced to make a t-shirt with a picture of the Prophet Mohammad on it?

Should a Catholic high school be forced to hire a practicing homosexual teacher?

Should a Christian baker be forced to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple?



So this is where this thread went.

I'm sorry that you seem to be a homophobe. You should probably work on that.

It seems like that's what people want right? Personally I don't care. But all the other ones got moved last week. I'm really nervous about doing any modding. People seriously get pissy so freaking quick on this site it's crazy.
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Post by Nordic 2016-03-28, 16:11

Dr. Strangelove wrote:The bill is not "anti-gay" specifically and there are laws on the books in 33 states just like this one.

Riddle me this Batman....should a Muslim t-shirt printer be forced to make a t-shirt with a picture of the Prophet Mohammad on it?

Should a Catholic high school be forced to hire a practicing homosexual teacher?

Should a Christian baker be forced to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple?



I could be wrong, but if this bill doesn't pass I'm pretty sure no one will be "forced" to do any of the above.

But if it does, it sure give people of "faith" carte blanche to be bigots.
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Post by Dr. Strangelove 2016-03-28, 16:11

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:No

Yes

Yes

One of those things actually has something to do with the practice of their actual religion. The other two are just an excuse to be a hateful monster, which is quite against their own religion.

There is nothing in koran that forbids the depiction of Muhammad. All three are religious beliefs.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos 2016-03-28, 16:13

Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:No

Yes

Yes

One of those things actually has something to do with the practice of their actual religion. The other two are just an excuse to be a hateful monster, which is quite against their own religion.

There is nothing in koran that forbids the depiction of Muhammad. All three are religious beliefs.

I don't think baking a cake qualifies under religious belief. If people were trying to force them to gay fuck then that'd be different. And I'll have to take your word on that about Mohammed. Haven't read the Koran.
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Post by Dr. Strangelove 2016-03-28, 16:17

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:The bill is not "anti-gay" specifically and there are laws on the books in 33 states just like this one.

Riddle me this Batman....should a Muslim t-shirt printer be forced to make a t-shirt with a picture of the Prophet Mohammad on it?

Should a Catholic high school be forced to hire a practicing homosexual teacher?

Should a Christian baker be forced to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple?



So this is where this thread went.

I'm sorry that you seem to be a homophobe. You should probably work on that.

Homophobe is a stupid word - kind of like Native American.

Anyway I don't give a shit what anybody does to another consenting adult - have at it carpet munchers and pillow biters.

I don't even believe in God myself so there's that. But I do care when the Government forces people to violate their beliefs without even giving them some sort of opt out. There a numerous instances where opt outs have been written into laws.

Also The Bin is a scary place.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos 2016-03-28, 16:18

That's the problem. They've told you it's "their belief."

No it isn't. It's the OPPOSITE of their belief. They just think gay people are icky and want to be monsters.
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Post by Dr. Strangelove 2016-03-28, 16:19

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:

There is nothing in koran that forbids the depiction of Muhammad. All three are religious beliefs.

I don't think baking a cake qualifies under religious belief. If people were trying to force them to gay fuck then that'd be different. And I'll have to take your word on that about Mohammed. Haven't read the Koran.

The theory on the cake thing is the baker's religious beliefs are against homosexuality and by baking a wedding cake they are in fact condoning homosexual marriage. Cost some bakers about $150k in Oregon last year for not baking a lesbian wedding cake.
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Post by Dr. Strangelove 2016-03-28, 16:21

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:That's the problem. They've told you it's "their belief."

No it isn't. It's the OPPOSITE of their belief. They just think gay people are icky and want to be monsters.

Lots of references to homosexuality in the base religious texts and let's just say they're not very charitable to the practice of same sex physical love.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos 2016-03-28, 16:25

That's the thing. They a) aren't condoning shit. B) it still has nothing to do with them from the standpoint of their own religion.

Their religion says "don't be gay." Fine. It also says "be decent to those sinners and aide them and all of that." I think I probably paraphrased. It doesn't say anything about shutting them out of their lives and hiding from them and never being nice to them.

Well, I'm sure somewhere in there it probably says everything to justify everything. But in general the message seems to be "be nicer to everyone" rather than "don't bake a cake for sinners." Now that you mention it, but that logic you wouldn't be able to bake a cake for anybody.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! 2016-03-28, 16:28

Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

So this is where this thread went.

I'm sorry that you seem to be a homophobe. You should probably work on that.

Homophobe is a stupid word - kind of like Native American.

Anyway I don't give a shit what anybody does to another consenting adult - have at it carpet munchers and pillow biters.

I don't even believe in God myself so there's that. But I do care when the Government forces people to violate their beliefs without even giving them some sort of opt out. There a numerous instances where opt outs have been written into laws.

Also The Bin is a scary place.

But you're cool when the government allows people to be discriminated against? Pretty selective outrage you got there.
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Post by Nordic 2016-03-28, 16:36

Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

I don't think baking a cake qualifies under religious belief. If people were trying to force them to gay fuck then that'd be different. And I'll have to take your word on that about Mohammed. Haven't read the Koran.

The theory on the cake thing is the baker's religious beliefs are against homosexuality and by baking a wedding cake they are in fact condoning homosexual marriage. Cost some bakers about $150k in Oregon last year for not baking a lesbian wedding cake.

Why didn't they bake the cake? Because they wanted something offense on it?  If that was case (just like Muhammed's T-Shirts & Things), they have the right to refuse.

Refusing to sell something to someone because they think they are gay, have long hair, muslim or wear red shoes is a different story.

BTW this isn't a law for bake shop owners and t-shirt makers.  It is for giving faith based organizations the right to discriminate based on their beliefs and still receive gov't funding. The last part being the key.

Go ahead and be the most bigoted organization on Earth. But if that is the case, don't come looking for gov't handouts.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! 2016-03-28, 16:46

Let's get back to the core issue here. Bigots try to pass a bigoted law until corporate greed forces them to reverse their stance.

'Merica!
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Post by DWags 2016-03-28, 16:53

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Let's get back to the core issue here. Bigots try to pass a bigoted law until corporate greed forces them to reverse their stance.

'Merica!

In other words, they're like farmers cause they just hoe'd themselves.
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Post by Nordic 2016-03-28, 17:29

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Let's get back to the core issue here. Bigots try to pass a bigoted law until corporate greed forces them to reverse their stance.

'Merica!

Fuck yeah!
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-28, 18:56

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:

Homophobe is a stupid word - kind of like Native American.

Anyway I don't give a shit what anybody does to another consenting adult - have at it carpet munchers and pillow biters.

I don't even believe in God myself so there's that. But I do care when the Government forces people to violate their beliefs without even giving them some sort of opt out. There a numerous instances where opt outs have been written into laws.

Also The Bin is a scary place.

But you're cool when the government allows people to be discriminated against? Pretty selective outrage you got there.

Why should the government be involved in who you "discriminate" against?

If I don't want to do business with someone for any reason... Race, ethnicity, religion, etc... Why don't I have that freedom of association?

Are you really willing to give approval for violence to be initiated because an individual doesn't want to associate with someone else, for whatever reason?
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-28, 19:02

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

One of those things actually has something to do with the practice of their actual religion. The other two are just an excuse to be a hateful monster, which is quite against their own religion.

And that should be illegal (I.e., the individual should be extorted and/or locked in a cage)?
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Post by Turtleneck 2016-03-28, 19:18

xsanguine wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

But you're cool when the government allows people to be discriminated against? Pretty selective outrage you got there.

Why should the government be involved in who you "discriminate" against?

If I don't want to do business with someone for any reason... Race, ethnicity, religion, etc... Why don't I have that freedom of association?

Are you really willing to give approval for violence to be initiated because an individual doesn't want to associate with someone else, for whatever reason?

Nordic already touched on this. When the discussion turns to religious organizations it shifts to a discussion about organizations granted tax exempt status by the government. If you receive a direct benefit from the government in the form of tax exempt status, the government is in better position to regulate your behavior. Furthermore, religious organizations that benefit from faith-based initiatives in addition to being tax exempt are in an even greater position to be compelled by government to follow the law.
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-28, 19:48

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Why should the government be involved in who you "discriminate" against?

If I don't want to do business with someone for any reason... Race, ethnicity, religion, etc... Why don't I have that freedom of association?

Are you really willing to give approval for violence to be initiated because an individual doesn't want to associate with someone else, for whatever reason?

Nordic already touched on this. When the discussion turns to religious organizations it shifts to a discussion about organizations granted tax exempt status by the government. If you receive a direct benefit from the government in the form of tax exempt status, the government is in better position to regulate your behavior. Furthermore, religious organizations that benefit from faith-based initiatives in addition to being tax exempt are in an even greater position to be compelled by government to follow the law.

I get that and that certainly muddies the water, which is why I didn't respond to Nordic specifically because then it becomes an issue about taxation and all of that and I think everyone gets where I stand there.

From my perspective, the wrong is already made by creating a system based on this sort of extortion... Either you're going to pay your protection money or we get to tell you how to run your organization, you have no other choice.. I just don't agree with that after stripping away the onion that is statism.

I think it should be worth noting that anyone I've had a conversation with regarding religion knows how I feel about it. It's not that I agree with any special status... I don't think religion should be exempt from taxation and everyone else should be subject to it. It's that I believe all peoples shouldn't be subject to the violence. This "special tax exempt" status and convolutes the reality of what is occurring; "We're allowing you to be 'special' by not stealing from you like we are with everyone else... Therefore you will act how we tell you how to act."
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Post by Turtleneck 2016-03-28, 20:08

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Nordic already touched on this. When the discussion turns to religious organizations it shifts to a discussion about organizations granted tax exempt status by the government. If you receive a direct benefit from the government in the form of tax exempt status, the government is in better position to regulate your behavior. Furthermore, religious organizations that benefit from faith-based initiatives in addition to being tax exempt are in an even greater position to be compelled by government to follow the law.

I get that and that certainly muddies the water, which is why I didn't respond to Nordic specifically because then it becomes an issue about taxation and all of that and I think everyone gets where I stand there.

From my perspective, the wrong is already made by creating a system based on this sort of extortion... Either you're going to pay your protection money or we get to tell you how to run your organization, you have no other choice.. I just don't agree with that after stripping away the onion that is statism.

I think it should be worth noting that anyone I've had a conversation with regarding religion knows how I feel about it. It's not that I agree with any special status... I don't think religion should be exempt from taxation and everyone else should be subject to it. It's that I believe all peoples shouldn't be subject to the violence. This "special tax exempt" status and convolutes the reality of what is occurring; "We're allowing you to be 'special' by not stealing from you like we are with everyone else... Therefore you will act how we tell you how to act."

I don't even pay attention you your "state is bad" arguments anymore. You reject the state but then happily accept the state by embracing capitalism. So your points just fall on deaf ears with me.
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-28, 20:26

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

I get that and that certainly muddies the water, which is why I didn't respond to Nordic specifically because then it becomes an issue about taxation and all of that and I think everyone gets where I stand there.

From my perspective, the wrong is already made by creating a system based on this sort of extortion... Either you're going to pay your protection money or we get to tell you how to run your organization, you have no other choice.. I just don't agree with that after stripping away the onion that is statism.

I think it should be worth noting that anyone I've had a conversation with regarding religion knows how I feel about it. It's not that I agree with any special status... I don't think religion should be exempt from taxation and everyone else should be subject to it. It's that I believe all peoples shouldn't be subject to the violence. This "special tax exempt" status and convolutes the reality of what is occurring; "We're allowing you to be 'special' by not stealing from you like we are with everyone else... Therefore you will act how we tell you how to act."

I don't even pay attention you your "state is bad" arguments anymore. You reject the state but then happily accept the state by embracing capitalism. So your points just fall on deaf ears with me.

Out of curiosity, how am I "embracing" capitalism?
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-28, 20:34

I reject the state and point out where it involves itself when it clearly (at least as I see it) shouldn't.

How is being for private ownership of trade and industry acceptance of the state?
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Post by DWags 2016-03-28, 20:41

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

I don't even pay attention you your "state is bad" arguments anymore. You reject the state but then happily accept the state by embracing capitalism. So your points just fall on deaf ears with me.

Out of curiosity, how am I "embracing" capitalism?

By having a job, working for the man, paying taxes and joining corporate message boards. PM me when you want to start stock piling weapons and start the revolution
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Post by Turtleneck 2016-03-28, 20:45

xsanguine wrote:I reject the state and point out where it involves itself when it clearly (at least as I see it) shouldn't.

How is being for private ownership of trade and industry acceptance of the state?

Capitalism requires the state. You cannot separate the two. A pillar of capitalism is private property (not to be confused with personal property). Protecting private property requires a coercive power defined by its ability to credibly threaten the use of violence. The state is the only actor in society - because it has authority rooted in law - that can legitimately wield such power. While you carry on about the state, you ignore what protects a key pillar of capitalism. Unless you are arguing for a privatized security with no democratic accountability. If that is the case, just ignore what I said.

On another note, you went to a fully public land grant university. It's existence and continued operation depends on the state. I do not see you rejecting the existence of your alma mater. You should have thought in through and went to Hillsdale.
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-29, 08:28

DWags wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Out of curiosity, how am I "embracing" capitalism?

By having a job, working for the man, paying taxes and joining corporate message boards. PM me when you want to start stock piling weapons and start the revolution

You're confusing existing in the reality that is there and suicide.

I have no aspirations to become some Che Guevara character.
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Post by Turtleneck 2016-03-29, 08:32

xsanguine wrote:
DWags wrote:

By having a job, working for the man, paying taxes and joining corporate message boards. PM me when you want to start stock piling weapons and start the revolution

You're confusing existing in the reality that is there and suicide.

I have no aspirations to become some Che Guevara character.

That's unfortunate. Sometimes I read your posts in Che's voice. I am not always fully clothed when I do that.
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-29, 08:45

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:I reject the state and point out where it involves itself when it clearly (at least as I see it) shouldn't.

How is being for private ownership of trade and industry acceptance of the state?

Capitalism requires the state. You cannot separate the two. A pillar of capitalism is private property (not to be confused with personal property). Protecting private property requires a coercive power defined by its ability to credibly threaten the use of violence. The state is the only actor in society - because it has authority rooted in law - that can legitimately wield such power. While you carry on about the state, you ignore what protects a key pillar of capitalism. Unless you are arguing for a privatized security with no democratic accountability. If that is the case, just ignore what I said.

On another note, you went to a fully public land grant university. It's existence and continued operation depends on the state. I do not see you rejecting the existence of your alma mater. You should have thought in through and went to Hillsdale.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my opposition to the initiation of violence.

I'm aware the state has a monopoly on a great many facets of our society.

My alma mater exists. I can reject its existence all I want but it doesn't change that fact it exists so rejecting it does... What exactly? (Never mind the fact I was a liberal democrat at the time)

This is why I tend to lean towards you're out to "get me" is because this is a weak argument. If you disagree with my philosophy then disagree with it and we can go from there. But this "you use the roads therefore you're a statist. GOTCHA!" Stuff seems very flimsy.

Capitalism... I have no problem with people using whatever form of currency they want to use as a resource value in order to voluntarily trade goods between one another. I also have no problem with people who don't participate in that system or only participate when they want to.

But I, just like everyone else, has to live within the system that exists. I can't live in a system that doesn't exist. I suppose if you pay your Obamacare tax you support social health care? Is that how this is working now?
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-29, 08:45

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

You're confusing existing in the reality that is there and suicide.

I have no aspirations to become some Che Guevara character.

That's unfortunate. Sometimes I read your posts in Che's voice. I am not always fully clothed when I do that.

I always read yours in Gilbert Gottfieds. I'm always unclothed when I do that.
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Post by Rocinante 2016-03-29, 13:52

Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:No

Yes

Yes

One of those things actually has something to do with the practice of their actual religion. The other two are just an excuse to be a hateful monster, which is quite against their own religion.

There is nothing in koran that forbids the depiction of Muhammad. All three are religious beliefs.

Nope. This has been hashed out many times. Discrimination is against the law. The uptight bakers broke the Colorado Law against discrimination based on sexual orientation. They were not asked to engage in homosexual behavior. Their religious beliefs were not infringed upon in any way. As far as I know, there are quite a few catholic schools that have fired or refused to hire gay people and there's been no legal "forcing". They are private schools and as the law now stands, have the right to be bigots. I have no idea where you were going with the Muslim thing.

Thanks for moving this thread, Travis.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! 2016-03-29, 13:58

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

That's unfortunate. Sometimes I read your posts in Che's voice. I am not always fully clothed when I do that.

I always read yours in Gilbert Gottfieds. I'm always unclothed when I do that.

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Post by Turtleneck 2016-03-30, 16:01

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Capitalism requires the state. You cannot separate the two. A pillar of capitalism is private property (not to be confused with personal property). Protecting private property requires a coercive power defined by its ability to credibly threaten the use of violence. The state is the only actor in society - because it has authority rooted in law - that can legitimately wield such power. While you carry on about the state, you ignore what protects a key pillar of capitalism. Unless you are arguing for a privatized security with no democratic accountability. If that is the case, just ignore what I said.

On another note, you went to a fully public land grant university. It's existence and continued operation depends on the state. I do not see you rejecting the existence of your alma mater. You should have thought in through and went to Hillsdale.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my opposition to the initiation of violence.

I'm aware the state has a monopoly on a great many facets of our society.

My alma mater exists. I can reject its existence all I want but it doesn't change that fact it exists so rejecting it does... What exactly? (Never mind the fact I was a liberal democrat at the time)

This is why I tend to lean towards you're out to "get me" is because this is a weak argument. If you disagree with my philosophy then disagree with it and we can go from there. But this "you use the roads therefore you're a statist. GOTCHA!" Stuff seems very flimsy.

Capitalism... I have no problem with people using whatever form of currency they want to use as a resource value in order to voluntarily trade goods between one another. I also have no problem with people who don't participate in that system or only participate when they want to.

But I, just like everyone else, has to live within the system that exists. I can't live in a system that doesn't exist. I suppose if you pay your Obamacare tax you support social health care? Is that how this is working now?

I am arguing that capitalism and violence go hand-in-hand. Private property must be protected through the credible threat of violence. In a democratic society, those threats come from the state. Unless you are arguing for the dissolution of the state in favor of complete privatization, including the privatization of security, you cannot reject the violence of the state but at the same time embrace capitalism.

In regards to MSU, this it not a "gotcha" argument and is not the same as the "highways" argument you link it to. In the case of the highways, you do not have an alternative. In the case of a college or university, it could be argued that you do have an alternative. In fact, alternative is the very argument you have made time-and-time again when we discuss the marketization of education. The problem is you continue to support your alma mater - for example maybe you go to football games -  when you have the clear choice not to do so. Your alma mater exists because of the state.  Stop supporting it. By continuing to support it you give credence to the state. Get season ticket to Hillsdale. Muddy Waters coached there before SVSU and MSU.
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Post by xsanguine 2016-03-30, 16:51

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

I'm not sure what this has to do with my opposition to the initiation of violence.

I'm aware the state has a monopoly on a great many facets of our society.

My alma mater exists. I can reject its existence all I want but it doesn't change that fact it exists so rejecting it does... What exactly? (Never mind the fact I was a liberal democrat at the time)

This is why I tend to lean towards you're out to "get me" is because this is a weak argument. If you disagree with my philosophy then disagree with it and we can go from there. But this "you use the roads therefore you're a statist. GOTCHA!" Stuff seems very flimsy.

Capitalism... I have no problem with people using whatever form of currency they want to use as a resource value in order to voluntarily trade goods between one another. I also have no problem with people who don't participate in that system or only participate when they want to.

But I, just like everyone else, has to live within the system that exists. I can't live in a system that doesn't exist. I suppose if you pay your Obamacare tax you support social health care? Is that how this is working now?

I am arguing that capitalism and violence go hand-in-hand. Private property must be protected through the credible threat of violence. In a democratic society, those threats come from the state. Unless you are arguing for the dissolution of the state in favor of complete privatization, including the privatization of security, you cannot reject the violence of the state but at the same time embrace capitalism.

In regards to MSU, this it not a "gotcha" argument and is not the same as the "highways" argument you link it to. In the case of the highways, you do not have an alternative. In the case of a college or university, it could be argued that you do have an alternative. In fact, alternative is the very argument you have made time-and-time again when we discuss the marketization of education. The problem is you continue to support your alma mater - for example maybe you go to football games -  when you have the clear choice not to do so. Your alma mater exists because of the state.  Stop supporting it. By continuing to support it you give credence to the state. Get season ticket to Hillsdale. Muddy Waters coached there before SVSU and MSU.

Personal property has to be defended in the same manner, no? I guess I'm not seeing how that differs in either event with a dissolution of the state. I'm probably not understanding the concept which is why I'm asking.

There's always an alternative. There is an alternative to highways, side streets or walking/biking, etc. You can even indicate as such on Google maps for directions. I actually found bits and pieces I've seen you talk about regarding education. Not as a product of the state or a product of privatization. To be completely honest, Turtleneck, I'm a horrible capitalist. I don't particularly care for money. It's just I haven't seen violence demonstrated by capitalism alone, only when the state gets involved.. It's why I lean towards anarcho-capitalism rather than classical anarchism (this is ignoring the fact it'd be an easier transition from a statist society to a volunteerist one, as far as I can tell) because I just don't have a lot of concrete examples that are independent from the state.
You're point regarding MSU is a fair one. I've confronted these contradictions before... Particularly with regards to my love of backpacking (which involves having to visit national forests). But like I said... I'm not looking to be a martyr for my beliefs. Statism is going to be around long after I'm gone and will be the system that develops in the next humanoid species. I can put my opinions out there and maybe one or two people will jump on board... Maybe enough people can share the same ideals and maybe get a few laws changed (I still believe the drug war is defeat able within my lifetime). But I'm not going to shun a home built with corporate materials or try to find clothes that aren't made under a capitalist system or find a computer built on fair trade principles. I still have to live in the world that I was exist in.
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Post by Turtleneck 2016-03-30, 20:09

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

I am arguing that capitalism and violence go hand-in-hand. Private property must be protected through the credible threat of violence. In a democratic society, those threats come from the state. Unless you are arguing for the dissolution of the state in favor of complete privatization, including the privatization of security, you cannot reject the violence of the state but at the same time embrace capitalism.

In regards to MSU, this it not a "gotcha" argument and is not the same as the "highways" argument you link it to. In the case of the highways, you do not have an alternative. In the case of a college or university, it could be argued that you do have an alternative. In fact, alternative is the very argument you have made time-and-time again when we discuss the marketization of education. The problem is you continue to support your alma mater - for example maybe you go to football games -  when you have the clear choice not to do so. Your alma mater exists because of the state.  Stop supporting it. By continuing to support it you give credence to the state. Get season ticket to Hillsdale. Muddy Waters coached there before SVSU and MSU.

Personal property has to be defended in the same manner, no? I guess I'm not seeing how that differs in either event with a dissolution of the state. I'm probably not understanding the concept which is why I'm asking.

There's always an alternative. There is an alternative to highways, side streets or walking/biking, etc. You can even indicate as such on Google maps for directions. I actually found bits and pieces I've seen you talk about regarding education. Not as a product of the state or a product of privatization. To be completely honest, Turtleneck, I'm a horrible capitalist. I don't particularly care for money. It's just I haven't seen violence demonstrated by capitalism alone, only when the state gets involved.. It's why I lean towards anarcho-capitalism rather than classical anarchism (this is ignoring the fact it'd be an easier transition from a statist society to a volunteerist one, as far as I can tell) because I just don't have a lot of concrete examples that are independent from the state.
You're point regarding MSU is a fair one. I've confronted these contradictions before... Particularly with regards to my love of backpacking (which involves having to visit national forests). But like I said... I'm not looking to be a martyr for my beliefs. Statism is going to be around long after I'm gone and will be the system that develops in the next humanoid species. I can put my opinions out there and maybe one or two people will jump on board... Maybe enough people can share the same ideals and maybe get a few laws changed (I still believe the drug war is defeat able within my lifetime). But I'm not going to shun a home built with corporate materials or try to find clothes that aren't made under a capitalist system or find a computer built on fair trade principles. I still have to live in the world that I was exist in.

You are not confusing the concepts as much as you are confusing their connection to capitalist economies. Personal property can exist in any economic arrangement. Private property is exploitative property. To quote RATM, "Fuck the G-rides, I want the machines that are making them." The G-rides are personal property and the machines are private property. Private property is a pillar of capitalism. From my perspective, capitalism does not function without private property. Therefore, the state plays a role in propping up capitalism because it is the primary protector of private property.

As for alternatives, tell me how you would get from your home to a MSU football game and 100% avoid any contact with public roads? It's not going to happen.
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