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Student vs. teacher debate

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Post by Tim Wakefield 2017-01-07, 17:09

Teacher debates students and takes the side of a debunked wage gap statistic. Students should be learning how to think critically. Instead, the teacher talks over the students when they try to make a point. Pretty sad when a teacher says that using statistics is "bullcrap"...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NluJBVgq12w


Last edited by Tim Wakefield on 2017-01-07, 17:12; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Tim Wakefield 2017-01-07, 17:11

Can't link anything for some reason. Article debunking the wage gap:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#70e1b7fa4766
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Post by DWags 2017-01-07, 18:27

Tim Wakefield wrote:Teacher debates students and takes the side of a debunked wage gap statistic. Students should be learning how to think critically. Instead, the teacher talks over the students when they try to make a point. Pretty sad when a teacher says that using statistics is "bullcrap"...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NluJBVgq12w

Cool class. We must be watching that film differently. Kids in the end were using hours worked in a salaried job. But the class was great. I wish more kids were taking part in it. He obviously inspired about five of them to do some great research. It's hard not to say if the rest of the class did or didn't but they were listening for the most part. My guess is that teacher inspires more of those kids to do research when it's their turn to share out. My other guess is that kid speaking the most doesn't get much pussy.


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Post by xsanguine 2017-01-07, 18:31

Good stuff, Tim. This thread is different but Turtleneck and I had a discussion on the wage gap some time ago...

https://spartanswill.forumotion.com/t7301-mapping-the-wage-gap?highlight=wage+gap#289559
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Post by Guest 2017-01-08, 11:44

And most teachers know not to vote against their interests.....

MITT ROMNEY: Trump Has Made A Smart Choice For Education Secretary. “In 1970, it cost $56,903 to educate a child from K-12. By 2010, adjusting for inflation, we had raised that spending to $164,426 — almost three times as much. Further, the number of people employed in our schools had nearly doubled. But despite the enormous investment, the performance of our kids has shown virtually no improvement. The establishment predictably calls for more spending and smaller classrooms — in other words, more teachers and more pay. But more of the same is demonstrably not the answer.” Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money. Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.
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Post by DWags 2017-01-08, 11:50

LooseGoose wrote:And most teachers know not to vote against their interests.....

MITT ROMNEY: Trump Has Made A Smart Choice For Education Secretary. “In 1970, it cost $56,903 to educate a child from K-12. By 2010, adjusting for inflation, we had raised that spending to $164,426 — almost three times as much. Further, the number of people employed in our schools had nearly doubled. But despite the enormous investment, the performance of our kids has shown virtually no improvement. The establishment predictably calls for more spending and smaller classrooms — in other words, more teachers and more pay. But more of the same is demonstrably not the answer.” Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money. Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.

Goose? What percentage of kids took the ACT your junior year in high school? Just take a guess. What percentage take it now?
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Post by Guest 2017-01-08, 12:04

DWags wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:And most teachers know not to vote against their interests.....


Goose?  What percentage of kids took the ACT your junior year in high school?  Just take a guess.  What percentage take it now?  

I really don't know Wags.   I went to a rural high school (Class C), my guess is that maybe 50%  Tops.  I sincerely doubt many more than that take it there now.  A LOT of farmers and a strong trades program had many of my classmates knowing where they were going right from school.

I should have typed more with that paragraph.   My sister just retired after 33 years in the classroom.  I have 2 nieces and a nephew that are teachers. I had 5 Aunts/Uncles that retired from teaching so I come from a family that's been pretty strong in the education field.   My point was nothing against teachers, my point was actually meant as a counter point to those that falsely claim over and over that we've "cut" education spending.   That's bullshit.

What we've done is diverted spending from the kids to buildings, administration and pet projects.   Schools today are almost always the nicest buildings by far in small towns, that's done very little to help the kids in them.   By far most new schools today don't have wood shops, metal shops, kitchens, etc for kids to learn good paying jobs that don't require college.   ALL of the focus is on college prep which means nearly 100% of the budget goes to serving 50-70% of the students.

Yes, I support college prep but I also know that many kids are not well suited for college.  We're leaving them behind in education and then lament when they don't become productive adults.
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Post by DWags 2017-01-08, 12:11

Point is, you're correct. About 50% of us did. Now, if 95% or more don't take it, the republicans put you down as not making the grade. Do that enough, your district can be sanctioned or controlled by the state. Force the kids not interested in taking the test to do it, scores drop. Show the country how fucked up the nea is by data. It's a beautiful thing Goose. Brilliant politicians.

Then let's charter schools. Charters don't have to take everyone. Special needs emotionally impaired etc. they aren't as scrutinized as public schools. They make a profit. It's beautiful again. I admire that type of politicking. Always have.
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Post by Cameron 2017-01-08, 13:22

LooseGoose wrote:And most teachers know not to vote against their interests.....

MITT ROMNEY: Trump Has Made A Smart Choice For Education Secretary. “In 1970, it cost $56,903 to educate a child from K-12. By 2010, adjusting for inflation, we had raised that spending to $164,426 — almost three times as much. Further, the number of people employed in our schools had nearly doubled. But despite the enormous investment, the performance of our kids has shown virtually no improvement. The establishment predictably calls for more spending and smaller classrooms — in other words, more teachers and more pay. But more of the same is demonstrably not the answer.” Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money. Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.

Can we talk about how absurdly stupid the bolded part is?
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Post by Tim Wakefield 2017-01-08, 13:26

DWags wrote:
Tim Wakefield wrote:Teacher debates students and takes the side of a debunked wage gap statistic. Students should be learning how to think critically. Instead, the teacher talks over the students when they try to make a point. Pretty sad when a teacher says that using statistics is "bullcrap"...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NluJBVgq12w

Cool class. We must be watching that film differently. Kids in the end were using hours worked in a salaried job. But the class was great. I wish more kids were taking part in it. He obviously inspired about five of them to do some great research. It's hard not to say if the rest of the class did or didn't but they were listening for the most part. My guess is that teacher inspires more of those kids to do research when it's their turn to share out. My other guess is that kid speaking the most doesn't get much pussy.

The video where the teacher tells his students that statistics are a "bullcrap" way to make an argument? Suspect
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Post by DWags 2017-01-08, 14:46

Tim Wakefield wrote:
DWags wrote:

Cool class. We must be watching that film differently.   Kids in the end were using hours worked in a salaried job.  But the class was great. I wish more kids were taking part in it. He obviously inspired about five of them to do some great research. It's hard not to say if the rest of the class did or didn't but they were listening for the most part.  My guess is that teacher inspires more of those kids to do research when it's their turn to share out.  My other guess is that kid speaking the most doesn't get much pussy.

The video where the teacher tells his students that statistics are a "bullcrap" way to make an argument? Suspect

Th4 idea of a classroom is to get kids to think Tim.  I don't know anything about that teacher or that classroom, do you?  I used to have to evaluate teachers and coaches through observation.  I can't do it as well as all those people can in the comment section of that utube film.  I know I wouldn't want to be evaluated on 13 minutes of film, I don't know that you'd want that either, but I'm from the old generation.  It takes way more to evaluate properly than a sound bite.  However, in the day of social media, I get that it's done and it's done often, and then it's believed as being so.  I can't stop anyone from making an observation based on 13 minutes of film, but if you do, look at the limited evidence on it.

Are the kids fired up about the subject?  Are they passionate about it?  How did they get that way in a boring debate or social studies class?  Did they have to do any research to get that informations or the "statistics" you're talking about?  Why did they research it?  What lead to that passion about the inquiry?  Did the teacher allow their point to be made even if it was in a contrary manner?  Is he being a contrarian on purpose?  How many sophomores in high school or juniors do you know that get that passionate about the wage gap?  

I don't know what his lesson plan for the day was, but I'd like to be a student in his class.  I already said I didn't like that only about 5 people were involved, but I don't know if that was his intent and if other groups went on different days.  I would lie to see more people involved.  There is so much more I'd need to evaluate if it was a good lesson, if he was on target for standards being met etc.  What standards was he trying to meet.   We don't know, and I don't believe you know that.  It's why it's really unfair to that teacher to be labled as a SJW, but again, social media its easy to do that.  If you want to take it on face value, that's cool, he shouldn't say 'statistics are crap".  Unless you're Narduzzi talking to guys who want to be coaches.   But the comments about the class, ONLY IN MY OPINION, are from ignorance and those who are ignorant of what is trying to be done in that class. I would like anyone to convince me that the kids weren't enthused, weren't well prepared and didn't show a passion about their subject.  Every teacher should suck like that.  
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Post by Guest 2017-01-08, 15:41

Cameron wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:And most teachers know not to vote against their interests.....



Can we talk about how absurdly stupid the bolded part is?

This I think is close to the truth.
Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money.

This is a bit over the top.
Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.




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Post by DWags 2017-01-08, 15:58

LooseGoose wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Can we talk about how absurdly stupid the bolded part is?

This I think is close to the truth.
Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money.

This is a bit over the top.
Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.





Yep, and it's not even close to being true. Either one. do Teachers and Administrators want public schools treated differently than what they are being treated by the republican legislature? Sure do. Are they "teaching kids to be left wing"? Man, they are so busy hitting standards and teaching to the test and creating robot thinkers that they don't have time for to indoctrinate kids. It's a myth and it's funny. Especially in the light of my personal knowledge of how so many now vote and espouse a Trump mentality and frankly vote against their self interest in so doing.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! 2017-01-08, 16:24

LooseGoose wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Can we talk about how absurdly stupid the bolded part is?

This I think is close to the truth.
Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money.

This is a bit over the top.
Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.





This is why it's hard to anything you say on this board seriously.
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Post by Cameron 2017-01-08, 17:55

LooseGoose wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Can we talk about how absurdly stupid the bolded part is?

This I think is close to the truth.
Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money.

This is a bit over the top.
Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.





How close to the truth? I know you hate it when people put words in your mouth, so I'll try not to do that here. Is it "most teachers lean left and tend to vote Democrat" close, or is it "most teachers try to influence their students to vote Democrat once they're of age" close?
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Post by Tim Wakefield 2017-01-08, 18:28

As someone who was in high school fairly recently, it wasn't a blatant bias. But when someone mentioned politics, it was like a "Republicans are bad *wink wink*" type of thing.

On campus at MSU however, there's absolutely an outright liberal bias. In one of my friend's classes after Trump won, the professor cancelled class early because she kept bursting into tears and even compared him to Hitler (#triggered). I'm a pretty moderate guy in my opinion, but being on a college campus makes me feel like a right-wing extremist.
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Post by DWags 2017-01-08, 23:15

Fuck Wakes, if the Michigan school teachers and Professors are brain washing our kids into voting democrat, holy shit, they're doing a bad job of it. Have hou checked your local and state congress and city officials? Of course a bunch of North East and out west schools are liberal leaning colleges. IF you're angry somehow at that 13 minute film of that teacher, are yhou saying those three kids didn't espouse the right wing point of view in the wage gap debate? Why were they allowed to espouse it.

My problem with films like that is that often they content of the class is over looked. What exactly is it? What was he trying to get out of these kids? Did he stop them from bring in their facts and statistics? He's called names in the comment area, why? I'd love to have a teacher like that.

Are your liberal leaning teachers not teaching you the content you need in classes because they're spending too much time on trying to get you to vote democrat? If that's so, tape them and turn them in. I know my daughter can't tell me if her orgo chem class proff was left or right wing, and frankly she didn't give a shit. Now if the guy started indoctrination of political thought instead of content of class, there'd be problems. If they say "trump sucks" and deliver content and you're getting something out of the class, what's the problem? your boss someday might be of the opposite political persuasion. What will you do?

That teacher in that video is a decent teacher from the 13 minutes I've seen. He's called names. If he printed handouts, told the kids to read them, find the answers in the book and turn it in and be quiet, would he be filmed and called SJW? Fuck those assholes who judged him on the exchange of very passionate students in a class that, at first blush, seemed very lively and one I'd like to be in.
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Post by xsanguine 2017-01-08, 23:27

DWags wrote:are yhou saying those three kids didn't espouse the right wing point of view in the wage gap debate?

There aren't points of views in this debate. One side has access to more in-depth facts and the other side is content with one specific speculative statistic. With this specific issue it's the difference between fact and fiction.
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Post by DWags 2017-01-08, 23:29

Was it a good class?
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Post by xsanguine 2017-01-08, 23:54

DWags wrote:Was it a good class?

Got my first STD there. Need I say more?
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Post by Turtleneck 2017-01-09, 00:23

Tim Wakefield wrote:As someone who was in high school fairly recently, it wasn't a blatant bias. But when someone mentioned politics, it was like a "Republicans are bad *wink wink*" type of thing.

On campus at MSU however, there's absolutely an outright liberal bias. In one of my friend's classes after Trump won, the professor cancelled class early because she kept bursting into tears and even compared him to Hitler (#triggered). I'm a pretty moderate guy in my opinion, but being on a college campus makes me feel like a right-wing extremist.

Then pushback. Pushback with reasoned and logical arguments supported by quality information. Do not pushback with lazy arguments supported by anecdotal stories or poor information. Any decent professor is going to welcome your contribution because A) it shows you are learning, and B) it will probably draw other people into a high quality discussion.

DWags, I stopped watching that video after about 30 seconds. It is great the teacher is stirring up passion in his students, but his reply "it's more of a common sense phenomenon" was lazy and probably something he would not let his students get away with in a discussion. I did click ahead and watched for another minute. It looked like the class was pretty plugged into the discussion, which was cool.

I found the Forbes article interesting, especially in light on X's comments about "One side has access to more in-depth facts and the other side is content with one specific speculative statistic." Is the conclusion actually supported by the evidence? If the conclusion is that the wage gap does not exist, the article actually reads:

Using the statistic that women make 78 cents on the dollar as evidence of rampant discrimination has been debunked over and over again. That statistic doesn’t take into account a lot of choices that women and men make—education, years of experience and hours worked—that influence earnings. If we want to have a fruitful discussion about a gender wage gap, we should have it after the comparison is adjusted for those factors.

That passage does not imply the wage gap does not exist. In fact, it implies the wage gap does exist. However, it implies the wage gap exists for specific reasons. So that means the discussion is not whether or not the wage gap exists, but instead why the wage gap exists. Those are different discussions. That is also where the conversation gets really messy.


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Post by DWags 2017-01-09, 00:28

Turtleneck wrote:
Tim Wakefield wrote:As someone who was in high school fairly recently, it wasn't a blatant bias. But when someone mentioned politics, it was like a "Republicans are bad *wink wink*" type of thing.

On campus at MSU however, there's absolutely an outright liberal bias. In one of my friend's classes after Trump won, the professor cancelled class early because she kept bursting into tears and even compared him to Hitler (#triggered). I'm a pretty moderate guy in my opinion, but being on a college campus makes me feel like a right-wing extremist.

Then pushback. Pushback with reasoned and logical arguments supported by quality information. Do not pushback with lazy arguments supported by anecdotal stories or poor information. Any decent professor is going to welcome your contribution because A) it shows you are learning, and B) it will probably draw other people into a high quality discussion.

DWags, I stopped watching that video after about 30 seconds. It is great the teacher is stirring up passion in his students, but his reply "it's more of a common sense phenomenon" was a weak response and probably something he would not let his students get away with in discussion. I did click ahead and watch for another minute and it looked like the class was pretty plugged into the discussion, which was cool.

Using the statistic that women make 78 cents on the dollar as evidence of rampant discrimination has been debunked over and over again. That statistic doesn’t take into account a lot of choices that women and men make—education, years of experience and hours worked—that influence earnings. If we want to have a fruitful discussion about a gender wage gap, we should have it after the comparison is adjusted for those factors.

I found the Forbes article interesting, especially in light on X's comments about "One side has access to more in-depth facts and the other side is content with one specific speculative statistic." Is the conclusion actually supported by the evidence. If the conclusion is that the wage gap does not exist, the article actually reads:



That passage does not imply the wage gap does not exist. In fact, it implies the wage gap does exist. However, it implies it exists for specific reasons. So that means the discussion is not whether or not the wage gap exists, but instead why the wage gap exists. Those are different discussion. That is also where the conversation gets really messy.

There was also a study done by a husband wife team, in the back of my head, I think at Cornell, Harvard? I don't know, that put the real wage gap at about 92 cents for each dollar a guy earns.
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Post by xsanguine 2017-01-09, 00:53

The wage gap most certainly exists.
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Post by Tim Wakefield 2017-01-09, 10:08

DWags, it was more of the IAH/ISS type classes. I'm done with those. I just sat there with my mouth shut and got my 4.0. But it was absurd
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Post by Guest 2017-01-09, 12:16

Cameron wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

This I think is close to the truth.
Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money.

This is a bit over the top.
Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.





How close to the truth? I know you hate it when people put words in your mouth, so I'll try not to do that here. Is it "most teachers lean left and tend to vote Democrat" close, or is it "most teachers try to influence their students to vote Democrat once they're of age" close?

I think it's both. Most teachers vote Dem because that's been their Union's alignment for decades. I believe they then try to influence their students that "progressive" policies are more enlightened. That's human nature.
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Post by Guest 2017-01-09, 12:17

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

This I think is close to the truth.
Public schools nowadays are primarily Democratic Party vote farms maintained with taxpayer money.

This is a bit over the top.
Any actual education that goes on there is purely secondary.





This is why it's hard to anything you say on this board seriously.

I don't know why, it's what I believe. If you think it's not true why not get me surveys, polls ofr article refuting that?? something that show the overwhelming conservative bent of the education establishment in the US?? I'll wait. A loooooong time.
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Post by The_Dude 2017-01-09, 13:01

Tim Wakefield wrote:Can't link anything for some reason. Article debunking the wage gap:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#70e1b7fa4766

Since when do facts matter for political causes like gender pay gap or black lives matter?

Its all about victimizing people and then telling them you'll provide the solution if you vote for me.
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Post by The_Dude 2017-01-09, 13:08

Tim Wakefield wrote:DWags, it was more of the IAH/ISS type classes. I'm done with those. I just sat there with my mouth shut and got my 4.0. But it was absurd

Once you understand that the liberals or Democrats in control of whatever (newspaper editor, professor, etc) freak out about diversity of everything...except diversity of thought you'll be able to better understand.

College campuses outside of the NYT or WaPo newsrooms are probably the best reflection of that.
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Post by The_Dude 2017-01-09, 13:09



Once again, how come we dont see conservatives doing this?  Or conservatives in theatre or an awards show or on an airplane attacking liberals?

What the fuck are wrong with these people on the left?  Where did it all go wrong? Is it all the echo chamber education and news that they listen to that makes myths and delusions seem like its the truth in their minds? That their radical behavior is justified because the other sided is dehumanized?

Trying to figure out why one side acts like petulent children over and over and over...and over again.
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Post by Turtleneck 2017-01-09, 13:52

xsanguine wrote:The wage gap most certainly exists.

So when people call the wage gap "a myth," is that not misleading? It suggest the gap does not exist.
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Post by xsanguine 2017-01-09, 13:55

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:The wage gap most certainly exists.

So when people call the wage gap "a myth," is that not misleading? It suggest the gap does not exist.

The myth they're referring to is the reasons given for the wage gap; misogyny, white male privilege, etc.
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Post by Turtleneck 2017-01-09, 13:59

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

So when people call the wage gap "a myth," is that not misleading? It suggest the gap does not exist.

The myth they're referring to is the reasons given for the wage gap; misogyny, white male privilege, etc.

Yes. I already established that above and in other threads on this topic.
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Post by Cameron 2017-01-09, 14:04

LooseGoose wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

This is why it's hard to anything you say on this board seriously.

I don't know why, it's what I believe.  If you think it's not true why not get me surveys, polls ofr article refuting that??  something that show the overwhelming conservative bent of the education establishment in the US??   I'll wait.    A loooooong time.
You're asking for surveys to refute an assertion that you support without having first produced any evidence to prove that assertion. That's backwards. Support the assertion that a significant proportion of teachers try to politically influence their students, and do it with something other than anecdotal evidence and gut feelings, then we'll be having a productive conversation.
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Post by xsanguine 2017-01-09, 14:07

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

The myth they're referring to is the reasons given for the wage gap; misogyny, white male privilege, etc.

Yes. I already established that above and in other threads on this topic.


I guess I haven't seen anyone say there isn't a wage gap. Every time I've fired up a video regarding the topic they go right into the choices men and women make with regards to work/life balance.

Maybe they should expand upon what they mean when they refer to it as the "wage gap myth" (which can be difficult in an age of shortened sound bytes), but to incorrectly extrapolate what someone means by that isn't the fault of the individual(s) making the statement.
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Post by Tim Wakefield 2017-01-09, 14:16

The 79% figure is detrimental to the wage gap that DOES exist due to discrimination.
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Post by DWags 2017-01-09, 15:40

Here's the link from the Husband and wife from Cornell I was mentioning.  I think the gap is 92 cents per every dollar.  

I think in  20 years this won't be a thing.  So many more women are now going to college and entering the fields in every position.  It's just a matter of time.   I think we've experienced the first time where more women than men are now in college.  That happened this decade.  

It will happen.  Might even go the other way.  Women are very much gaining in every field.

I don't know about the hours, working thing,  but with the type of work that can be done remotely now, if there is some biological thing where a woman has to "nurture" more than a man, that will possibly be overcome by working remote in the future too.  

The pay gap, imo is nowhere near the 78 cent figure.   I do think there is one, but when factoring everything in, it's nothing outrageous.   Women will shorten it even more.  It's just a matter of time.

Husband wife form Cornell. Factor in many things.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano 2017-01-09, 15:48

Republicans know that if they are more likely to gain power when they keep the electorate uneducated.

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Post by xsanguine 2017-01-09, 15:59

DWags wrote:Here's the link from the Husband and wife from Cornell I was mentioning.  I think the gap is 92 cents per every dollar.  

I think in  20 years this won't be a thing.  So many more women are now going to college and entering the fields in every position.  It's just a matter of time.   I think we've experienced the first time where more women than men are now in college.  That happened this decade.  

It will happen.  Might even go the other way.  Women are very much gaining in every field.

I don't know about the hours, working thing,  but with the type of work that can be done remotely now, if there is some biological thing where a woman has to "nurture" more than a man, that will possibly be overcome by working remote in the future too.  

The pay gap, imo is nowhere near the 78 cent figure.   I do think there is one, but when factoring everything in, it's nothing outrageous.   Women will shorten it even more.  It's just a matter of time.

Husband wife form Cornell.  Factor in many things.  

Well the 77/78 cent thing is certainly legit as far as I've read. But like that study from Cornell, they're factoring in things to bring it to the 90+ cent figure.

Hazardous jobs pay more, jobs where you have to travel 3 1/2 out of 4 weeks pay more. You don't see a lot of women in fishing or in logging. There's a biological factor at play. If you read some of the studies, women excel at certain jobs moreso than men. It may be seen a misogynist these days but biology can explain why women are better at certain types of work than men, and why men are better at other types of work than women. It's not a bad thing and it's not evil... we're just built and wired a bit differently and it goes without saying that the sexes need each other equally as much. I don't think it's wrong to suggest that physically demanding jobs are going to be a better fit for men due to their build, muscle mass and testosterone... on average. Women seem to excel in positions where organizational skills are paramount. Men, on average, don't seem to enjoy that kind of work as much and aren't as good at it for whatever reason. Again.... we're talking about averages/generalities.
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Post by Turtleneck 2017-01-09, 16:35

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Yes. I already established that above and in other threads on this topic.


I guess I haven't seen anyone say there isn't a wage gap. Every time I've fired up a video regarding the topic they go right into the choices men and women make with regards to work/life balance.

Maybe they should expand upon what they mean when they refer to it as the "wage gap myth" (which can be difficult in an age of shortened sound bytes), but to incorrectly extrapolate what someone means by that isn't the fault of the individual(s) making the statement.

When you say something is a myth, by definition you are saying it is false or does not exist. It is a poor choice of words if not intellectually dishonest to purposively use the word myth. Those who call the wage gap a myth - it is one thing to say there is a myth about the wage gap and another to say the wage gap is a myth - are engaging in a bit of a fallacy. They assert one claim and then prove another. And yes, it is the fault of the author since the author makes the word choices.
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Post by DWags 2017-01-09, 16:36

xsanguine wrote:
DWags wrote:Here's the link from the Husband and wife from Cornell I was mentioning.  I think the gap is 92 cents per every dollar.  

I think in  20 years this won't be a thing.  So many more women are now going to college and entering the fields in every position.  It's just a matter of time.   I think we've experienced the first time where more women than men are now in college.  That happened this decade.  

It will happen.  Might even go the other way.  Women are very much gaining in every field.

I don't know about the hours, working thing,  but with the type of work that can be done remotely now, if there is some biological thing where a woman has to "nurture" more than a man, that will possibly be overcome by working remote in the future too.  

The pay gap, imo is nowhere near the 78 cent figure.   I do think there is one, but when factoring everything in, it's nothing outrageous.   Women will shorten it even more.  It's just a matter of time.

Husband wife form Cornell.  Factor in many things.  

Well the 77/78 cent thing is certainly legit as far as I've read. But like that study from Cornell, they're factoring in things to bring it to the 90+ cent figure.

Hazardous jobs pay more, jobs where you have to travel 3 1/2 out of 4 weeks pay more. You don't see a lot of women in fishing or in logging. There's a biological factor at play. If you read some of the studies, women excel at certain jobs moreso than men. It may be seen a misogynist these days but biology can explain why women are better at certain types of work than men, and why men are better at other types of work than women. It's not a bad thing and it's not evil... we're just built and wired a bit differently and it goes without saying that the sexes need each other equally as much. I don't think it's wrong to suggest that physically demanding jobs are going to be a better fit for men due to their build, muscle mass and testosterone... on average. Women seem to excel in positions where organizational skills are paramount. Men, on average, don't seem to enjoy that kind of work as much and aren't as good at it for whatever reason. Again.... we're talking about averages/generalities.

yeah, we're both walking a misogynistic line here, so I'll jump in deeper. My wife and I would drop our two kids off at daycare in a building down by the ren cen in detroit 16 years ago. Her office was in the building she was lobbying for a Natural Gas company that was based in the 500 tower. On days or weeks she was out of town, I'd drop the kids off and they'd cry a bit but I was out the door and knew I'd come back to get them. Well, when she dropped them off and they cried, it made her day miserable. Hated work etc. She would try to get out of travel more and more and would only really plan trips if she had to testify in court or various state legislatures. She was definitely cutting hours that I know males with or without kids weren't doing. Then, one day, I dropped the kids off, she said she was flying in from Atlanta and she'd pick them up. Well, I guess when the daycare worker handed the youngest to her, the youngest clinged to the daycare workers neck and didn't want to go. That was it. Wife hated her job. The Nurture part in her took over. She would do everythng she could to get out of entertaining clients at the Joe or the palace or going to dinner or the fox. My point is, I don't think she was doing the hours she had when we were childless. I don't know promotions or whatever would have followed as rapidly. Me? I'd have been bummed if the kid cried with the daycare worker but I wouldn't have blamed my job. Does't mean I don't love the kids dearly,but I think the biological thing you speak of is a real factor in this. Women are way better at nurturing than men are. (of course that isn't an absolute and I'm sure there are plenty of examples of the opposite.). Anyway, the study does take into account amount of working hours for companies. I believe that those figures follow a biological line but wouldn't ever defend it as I'm just guessing. So, besides the risk takers you bring up as far as biology, I think there is a "nurture" factor involved as to amount of work a woman will do. I'm not married to that and am only using my personal life example of why I believe it's so. I'm sure someone could destroy me on this.
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