More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 12:28

Herbie Green wrote:
MSU addict wrote:

Yes. (I read the entire statement previously)

And you are still outraged?!

Note that the letter to Simon was in response to the Washington post article that only took this one sentence from the entire letter.

http://michiganradio.org/post/alleged-nassar-victim-msu-president-our-voices-counted-nothing

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/doctor-at-center-of-usa-gymnastics-scandal-left-warning-signs-at-michigan-state/2017/04/25/eed48834-2530-11e7-a1b3-faff0034e2de_story.html?utm_term=.01f43ef05a3e





Again...you can't talk about context and not discuss the internal investigation and what was said in 2014.

If you read the victim's letters to Simon and Strampel, you would understand that.

As such, your refusal to discuss (that) context only shows that you're here just to troll (or to remain misinformed and uneducated).

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-03, 12:42

Herbie Green wrote:
MSU addict wrote:

Yes.  (I read the entire statement previously)

And you are still outraged?!

Note that the letter to Simon was in response to the Washington post article that only took this one sentence from the entire letter.

http://michiganradio.org/post/alleged-nassar-victim-msu-president-our-voices-counted-nothing

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/doctor-at-center-of-usa-gymnastics-scandal-left-warning-signs-at-michigan-state/2017/04/25/eed48834-2530-11e7-a1b3-faff0034e2de_story.html?utm_term=.01f43ef05a3e
Outraged is a little strong.  I labeled it offensive.

I view the whole statement basically as Dr. Simon saying MSU is doing a great job, and by extension, so its President.

In my opinion MSU has done a poor job.  Historically, our Title IX office is simply a joke (a long running really bad joke).

Ms. Denhollander, the Washington Post and even myself have simply pointed to the most egregious line in a poor statement overall.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 12:56

I love this place, where providing the full context of the discussion or having a difference of opinion is considered "trolling".
I think this is a great lesson for us all on taking quotes out of context, media sensationalism, and faux outrage.
Not to mention it points out why it is so difficult to have a discussion here.
I don't know about your secret 2014 information.  If this would somehow change my opinion then let me know.  Are you saying Simon was the mastermind of a plot to run a sham of an investigation to clear Nassar?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 13:12

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

You can't talk about context without taking into account what happened (and what was said) in 2014 (regarding the internal investigation).


I love this place, where providing the full context of the discussion or having a difference of opinion is considered "trolling".
I think this is a great lesson for us all on taking quotes out of context, media sensationalism, and faux outrage.
Not to mention it points out why it is so difficult to have a discussion here.
I don't know about your secret 2014 information
. If this would somehow change my opinion then let me know. Are you saying Simon was the mastermind of a plot to run a sham of an investigation to clear Nassar?

1. You didn't provide the full context.
2. It's not difficult to have a conversation. There is no secret information (I even linked an article, and have mentioned the victim's letters which refer to what happened in 2014). You can have an educated and informed discussion if you discuss the full context of what the victim referred to in her letters. Ignoring that doesn't provide (the full) context. This isn't difficult. You are trying to make it difficult. So, you can either have an informed discussion and acknowledge what was said in her letters (referring to the 2014 investigation), or you can ignore that...and make statements only relying on the 2017 Simon letter (and remain uniformed and unable/unwilling to understand the full context).
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 13:34

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

I love this place, where providing the full context of the discussion or having a difference of opinion is considered "trolling".
I think this is a great lesson for us all on taking quotes out of context, media sensationalism, and faux outrage.
Not to mention it points out why it is so difficult to have a discussion here.
I don't know about your secret 2014 information
. If this would somehow change my opinion then let me know. Are you saying Simon was the mastermind of a plot to run a sham of an investigation to clear Nassar?

1. You didn't provide the full context.
2. It's not difficult to have a conversation. There is no secret information (I even linked an article, and have mentioned the victim's letters which refer to what happened in 2014). You can have an educated and informed discussion if you discuss the full context of what the victim referred to in her letters. Ignoring that doesn't provide (the full) context. This isn't difficult. You are trying to make it difficult. So, you can either have an informed discussion and acknowledge what was said in her letters (referring to the 2014 investigation), or you can ignore that...and make statements only relying on the 2017 Simon letter (and remain uniformed and unable/unwilling to understand the full context).

I have read the Washington Post article, the link you provided that "Nassar suggested one doctor in the 2014 investigation", and the two letters from the victim. And I can only guess what you are referring to. Honestly I am completely confused about the 2014 reference. Isn't this Delhollander's case from like year 2000?

Do you think Delhollander herself even read Simon's full letter? It seems obvious to me that she did not and that she was reacting only to the Washington Post article, which in my opinion was a slam piece of irresponsible journalism.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 14:36

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

1.  You didn't provide the full context.  
2.  It's not difficult to have a conversation.  There is no secret information (I even linked an article, and have mentioned the victim's letters which refer to what happened in 2014).  You can have an educated and informed discussion if you discuss the full context of what the victim referred to in her letters.  Ignoring that doesn't provide (the full) context.  This isn't difficult.  You are trying to make it difficult.  So, you can either have an informed discussion and acknowledge what was said in her letters (referring to the 2014 investigation), or you can ignore that...and make statements only relying on the 2017 Simon letter (and remain uniformed and unable/unwilling to understand the full context).  

I have read the Washington Post article, the link you provided that "Nassar suggested one doctor in the 2014 investigation", and the two letters from the victim. And I can only guess what you are referring to.  Honestly I am completely confused about the 2014 reference.  Isn't this Delhollander's case from like year 2000?

Do you think Delhollander herself even read Simon's full letter?  It seems obvious to me that she did not and that she was reacting only to the Washington Post article, which in my opinion was a slam piece of irresponsible journalism.  

You are confused about a reference to a Title IX investigation in 2014...and statements made around that time that the victim directly addresses in her letters, and which is referred to in the article that you claim to have read?

And you're accusing the victim of not completely reading things?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 14:59

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

I have read the Washington Post article, the link you provided that "Nassar suggested one doctor in the 2014 investigation", and the two letters from the victim. And I can only guess what you are referring to.  Honestly I am completely confused about the 2014 reference.  Isn't this Delhollander's case from like year 2000?

Do you think Delhollander herself even read Simon's full letter?  It seems obvious to me that she did not and that she was reacting only to the Washington Post article, which in my opinion was a slam piece of irresponsible journalism.  

You are confused about a reference to a Title IX investigation in 2014...and statements made around that time that the victim directly addresses in her letters, and which is referred to in the article that you claim to have read?

And you're accusing the victim of not completely reading things?


I provided a link to the Washington Post article and Simon's statement to show that the Post only used one sentence from Simon's entire statement. Further, the letter from the victim to Simon opens with - "Dear President Simon, A few days ago I began receiving texts and email messages from family and friends asking if I had seen an article in the Washington Post". And then she never mentions anything from Simon's statement other than this one sentence. This is what I mean by "out of context" as the Post takes one sentence out of 30 to paint a completely different picture than was intended than when you include the other 29.
Do you understand that? Context isn't linking a completely different article or your vague references to play 20 questions with whatever point you are trying to make.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 15:06

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

You are confused about a reference to a Title IX investigation in 2014...and statements made around that time that the victim directly addresses in her letters, and which is referred to in the article that you claim to have read?

And you're accusing the victim of not completely reading things?


I provided a link to the Washington Post article and Simon's statement to show that the Post only used one sentence from Simon's entire statement. Further, the letter from the victim to Simon opens with - "Dear President Simon, A few days ago I began receiving texts and email messages from family and friends asking if I had seen an article in the Washington Post". And then she never mentions anything from Simon's statement other than this one sentence. This is what I mean by "out of context" as the Post takes one sentence out of 30 to paint a completely different picture than was intended than when you include the other 29.
Do you understand that? Context isn't linking a completely different article or your vague references to play 20 questions with whatever point you are trying to make.


Are you still confused by the references to 2014?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 15:35

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

I provided a link to the Washington Post article and Simon's statement to show that the Post only used one sentence from Simon's entire statement. Further, the letter from the victim to Simon opens with - "Dear President Simon, A few days ago I began receiving texts and email messages from family and friends asking if I had seen an article in the Washington Post". And then she never mentions anything from Simon's statement other than this one sentence. This is what I mean by "out of context" as the Post takes one sentence out of 30 to paint a completely different picture than was intended than when you include the other 29.
Do you understand that? Context isn't linking a completely different article or your vague references to play 20 questions with whatever point you are trying to make.


Are you still confused by the references to 2014?


Yes, can you pretty please tell me what your point is or do we have to play 20 questions? I already asked you two questions that you didn't answer - "Is Simon the mastermind behind running a sham of an investigation in 2014 and if so what was her motivation"
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 16:13

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Are you still confused by the references to 2014?


Yes, can you pretty please tell me what your point is or do we have to play 20 questions? I already asked you two questions that you didn't answer - "Is Simon the mastermind behind running a sham of an investigation in 2014 and if so what was her motivation"

2014? I'm confused. What happened in 2014?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 16:17

http://deadspin.com/gymnast-writes-open-letters-to-michigan-state-leaders-w-1794844898

"Denhollander wrote the letters after reading quotes from Simon and Strampel in the Washington Post, which did a report last week based on emails and other records from the university showing both leaders at times downplaying their responsibility for what happened. At one point, Stampel even tells Nassar “I am on your side.

I wonder if Stampel is still on Nassar's side. What do you think Herbie?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 16:26

NigelUno wrote:http://deadspin.com/gymnast-writes-open-letters-to-michigan-state-leaders-w-1794844898

"Denhollander wrote the letters after reading quotes from Simon and Strampel in the Washington Post, which did a report last week based on emails and other records from the university showing both leaders at times downplaying their responsibility for what happened. At one point, Stampel even tells Nassar “I am on your side.

I wonder if Stampel is still on Nassar's side. What do you think Herbie?


I don't think I have mentuoned Stampel once. Did he say that in 2014?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Wally Fairway on 2017-05-03, 16:32

are confused about a reference to a Title IX investigation in 2014...and statements made around that time that the victim directly addresses in her letters, and which is referred to in the article that you claim to have read?
If that is an honest statement, then you to have a better understanding of the background of the scope of the events that relate to Nassar.
There were allegations that came forward in 2014 which were investigated by the Ingham County Prosecutor (who has since be convicted of sex crimes, or plead so some lesser charge [maybe relevant, maybe not]); also Meridian PD did some sort of investigation and the result of those criminal investigation was that no charges were brought.
There are allegations that the investigations were flawed (some might say a whitewashing), in which people close to Nassar and/or MSU college of medicine were asked to review procedures performed and concluded that there was some obscure procedure that involved genital manipulation and possibly penetration and therefore his methods were not sexual abuse or inappropriate.
USA Gymnastics had not publicly announced they were investigating allegations, so there was no conspiracy to cover up. Just everyone was kind of doing it on their own because such a celebrated doctor was someone that they wanted affiliated with their group.
The weak link for MSU college of medicine is that there were procedures and/or practices that were implemented which dictated how Nassar was to deal with patient interactions. And although they were implemented on paper there was no follow up, and it is now alleged that he ignored the new policies and no one ever checked. This to me is most damning on Dean Strampel.
In some regards President Simon (and Hollis) are guilty by association and by being at the top of the organizational charts; for having someone like Klages who blew off the reports and bullied those who reported to think about the consequences, work directly or indirectly for one of their departments.

MSU was slow to reach out to athletes who were on teams that Nassar was affiliated with, and I have not heard of any contact that the College of Osteopathy has made to patients of Nassar. Sometimes it is what you do, some times it is what you say - and sometimes it is what you don't do or say that will get you in trouble.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 16:40

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:http://deadspin.com/gymnast-writes-open-letters-to-michigan-state-leaders-w-1794844898

"Denhollander wrote the letters after reading quotes from Simon and Strampel in the Washington Post, which did a report last week based on emails and other records from the university showing both leaders at times downplaying their responsibility for what happened. At one point, Stampel even tells Nassar “I am on your side.

I wonder if Stampel is still on Nassar's side. What do you think Herbie?


I don't think I have mentuoned Stampel once. Did he say that in 2014?

It would be worse if it was said last fall, right?

Given all that has surfaced, do you think Strampel is still on Nassar's side?

Do you think it's ridiculous that Strampel said that? Don't you think the victim has a right to be outraged by that statement? That Strampel picked a side? And picked the wrong side?

Or...are you still taking shots at the victim?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 16:42

Wally Fairway wrote:
are confused about a reference to a Title IX investigation in 2014...and statements made around that time that the victim directly addresses in her letters, and which is referred to in the article that you claim to have read?
If that is an honest statement, then you to have a better understanding of the background of the scope of the events that relate to Nassar.
There were allegations that came forward in 2014 which were investigated by the Ingham County Prosecutor (who has since be convicted of sex crimes, or plead so some lesser charge [maybe relevant, maybe not]); also Meridian PD did some sort of investigation and the result of those criminal investigation was that no charges were brought.
There are allegations that the investigations were flawed (some might say a whitewashing), in which people close to Nassar and/or MSU college of medicine were asked to review procedures performed and concluded that there was some obscure procedure that involved genital manipulation and possibly penetration and therefore his methods were not sexual abuse or inappropriate.
USA Gymnastics had not publicly announced they were investigating allegations, so there was no conspiracy to cover up. Just everyone was kind of doing it on their own because such a celebrated doctor was someone that they wanted affiliated with their group.
The weak link for MSU college of medicine is that there were procedures and/or practices that were implemented which dictated how Nassar was to deal with patient interactions. And although they were implemented on paper there was no follow up, and it is now alleged that he ignored the new policies and no one ever checked. This to me is most damning on Dean Strampel.
In some regards President Simon (and Hollis) are guilty by association and by being at the top of the organizational charts; for having someone like Klages who blew off the reports and bullied those who reported to think about the consequences, work directly or indirectly for one of their departments.

MSU was slow to reach out to athletes who were on teams that Nassar was affiliated with, and I have not heard of any contact that the College of Osteopathy has made to patients of Nassar. Sometimes it is what you do, some times it is what you say - and sometimes it is what you don't do or say that will get you in trouble.  

When the shit eventually hits the fan, Simon and/or Strampel might be in trouble.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 08:43

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

I don't think I have mentuoned Stampel once. Did he say that in 2014?

It would be worse if it was said last fall, right?

Given all that has surfaced, do you think Strampel is still on Nassar's side?

Do you think it's ridiculous that Strampel said that? Don't you think the victim has a right to be outraged by that statement? That Strampel picked a side? And picked the wrong side?

Or...are you still taking shots at the victim?


Maybe he is "not on his side" anymore. I know the dad of that babysitter in Holt was on Nassar's side against his own daughter. He committed suicide last year.

Maybe the anger should really be directed at the Washington Post. This was a personal email not intended for the victim to ever read. What purpose did it serve by publishing that?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-04, 09:08

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

It would be worse if it was said last fall, right?

Given all that has surfaced, do you think Strampel is still on Nassar's side?

Do you think it's ridiculous that Strampel said that? Don't you think the victim has a right to be outraged by that statement? That Strampel picked a side? And picked the wrong side?

Or...are you still taking shots at the victim?


Maybe he is "not on his side" anymore. I know the dad of that babysitter in Holt was on Nassar's side against his own daughter. He committed suicide last year.

Maybe the anger should really be directed at the Washington Post. This was a personal email not intended for the victim to ever read. What purpose did it serve by publishing that?

Whose anger? Yours?

You're upset the Washington Post published the emails?

(The purpose of publishing them is pretty clear. They are part of the story.)
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 09:12

Good post Wally. It is nice to have someone capable of adding to the discussion. You make some very good points although I still have trouble extending the faults up to Simon or Hollis.
I think it is obvious what kind of article the Post wanted to write. I have waited since the start of this whole story for these cover up emails and meetings with Simon and Hollis. I find it hard to believe that the MSU Title IX investigation and police investigation(s) were all elaborate cover ups. And these doctors that served as expert witnesses all knowingly lied about medical practice to enable a child molestor.
While procedures were put in place to have additional people in the room, I do think the apparent lack of follow up by MSU is one of the worst aspects, along with the gymnastics coach and anyone else at MSU that didn't report allegations. Perhaps this is enough to sue the crap out of MSU but I guess I still see those as failures of individuals rather than the institution. Saying Simon and Hollis are guilty because "you are responsible for employing someone" that failed to report allegations they heard in confidence seems beyond a stretch to me. Is every leader of an organization responsible for all actions of all those below them on the org chart? Or does that only apply at Universities? There would be no way one could survive as a leader if that is the standard.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 09:17

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

Maybe he is "not on his side" anymore. I know the dad of that babysitter in Holt was on Nassar's side against his own daughter. He committed suicide last year.

Maybe the anger should really be directed at the Washington Post. This was a personal email not intended for the victim to ever read. What purpose did it serve by publishing that?

Whose anger? Yours?

You're upset the Washington Post published the emails?

(The purpose of publishing them is pretty clear. They are part of the story.)

I had thought it upset one of the victims and that is what we were talking about these last two pages of this thread.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-04, 09:23

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Whose anger? Yours?

You're upset the Washington Post published the emails?

(The purpose of publishing them is pretty clear. They are part of the story.)

I had thought it upset one of the victims and that is what we were talking about these last two pages of this thread.

So, the victim should be mad at the Washington Post for publishing the emails?

Please. Try to make sense. Educate and inform yourself. Completely. Don't take shots at victims.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 10:11

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

I had thought it upset one of the victims and that is what we were talking about these last two pages of this thread.

So, the victim should be mad at the Washington Post for publishing the emails?

Please. Try to make sense. Educate and inform yourself. Completely. Don't take shots at victims.

I don't think taking one sentence from the Simon letter out of context or publishing this email accomplished anything but to sensationalize the story and upset the victim. In fact, the victim wrote two letters directly in response to these two items and was clearly upset. But perhaps you are not concerned about the victim's feelings.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-04, 10:18

Wally Fairway wrote:
are confused about a reference to a Title IX investigation in 2014...and statements made around that time that the victim directly addresses in her letters, and which is referred to in the article that you claim to have read?
If that is an honest statement, then you to have a better understanding of the background of the scope of the events that relate to Nassar.
There were allegations that came forward in 2014 which were investigated by the Ingham County Prosecutor (who has since be convicted of sex crimes, or plead so some lesser charge [maybe relevant, maybe not]); also Meridian PD did some sort of investigation and the result of those criminal investigation was that no charges were brought.
There are allegations that the investigations were flawed (some might say a whitewashing), in which people close to Nassar and/or MSU college of medicine were asked to review procedures performed and concluded that there was some obscure procedure that involved genital manipulation and possibly penetration and therefore his methods were not sexual abuse or inappropriate.
USA Gymnastics had not publicly announced they were investigating allegations, so there was no conspiracy to cover up. Just everyone was kind of doing it on their own because such a celebrated doctor was someone that they wanted affiliated with their group.
The weak link for MSU college of medicine is that there were procedures and/or practices that were implemented which dictated how Nassar was to deal with patient interactions. And although they were implemented on paper there was no follow up, and it is now alleged that he ignored the new policies and no one ever checked. This to me is most damning on Dean Strampel.
In some regards President Simon (and Hollis) are guilty by association and by being at the top of the organizational charts; for having someone like Klages who blew off the reports and bullied those who reported to think about the consequences, work directly or indirectly for one of their departments.

MSU was slow to reach out to athletes who were on teams that Nassar was affiliated with, and I have not heard of any contact that the College of Osteopathy has made to patients of Nassar. Sometimes it is what you do, some times it is what you say - and sometimes it is what you don't do or say that will get you in trouble.  
Please allow me a couple of clarifications.

The 2014 investigation was not handled by the Ingham County Prosecutor.  Prosecutors do not investigate.  Two investigations were done, one by the MSU Police Department, and another by MSU's Title IX Office.  Both cleared Nassar.  I should also point out that the Title IX office uses a lower standard of evidence (a preponderance) than a criminal investigation.

Also Brooke Lemmen (a doctor employed by MSU) knew of the investigation by USA gymnastics.  She was fired by MSU for not telling MSU of the investigation and I believe also removing some files related to the case.  FWIW, her attorney claims that a number of people at MSU knew of the USA gymnastics investigation.

Right now we are dealing with a limited number of known facts.


Last edited by MSU addict on 2017-05-04, 10:37; edited 2 times in total
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-04, 10:22

Herbie Green wrote:I don't think taking one sentence from the Simon letter out of context or publishing this email accomplished anything but to sensationalize the story and upset the victim. In fact, the victim wrote two letters directly in response to these two items and was clearly upset. But perhaps you are not concerned about the victim's feelings.
You do realize the Washington Post Article mentions Ms. Denhollander by name, right?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-04, 10:24

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

So, the victim should be mad at the Washington Post for publishing the emails?

Please. Try to make sense. Educate and inform yourself. Completely. Don't take shots at victims.

I don't think taking one sentence from the Simon letter out of context or publishing this email accomplished anything but to sensationalize the story and upset the victim. In fact, the victim wrote two letters directly in response to these two items and was clearly upset. But perhaps you are not concerned about the victim's feelings.

So...the victim should be angry at the Washington Post? And not Strampel for being on Nassar's side?

So...NOT publishing Strampel's email would have made this all better how? By hiding that Strampel was taking Nassar's side?



Thanks Herbie. Your insight is invaluable.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 10:43

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

I don't think taking one sentence from the Simon letter out of context or publishing this email accomplished anything but to sensationalize the story and upset the victim. In fact, the victim wrote two letters directly in response to these two items and was clearly upset. But perhaps you are not concerned about the victim's feelings.

So...the victim should be angry at the Washington Post? And not Strampel for being on Nassar's side?

So...NOT publishing Strampel's email would have made this all better how? By hiding that Strampel was taking Nassar's side?



Thanks Herbie. Your insight is invaluable.


You should be angry at the Washington Post for allowing yourself to be trolled.

Do you think the Washington Post could have possibly secured any other emails that they chose not, or even NOT to publish?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-05-04, 10:51

Herbie Green wrote:I love this place, where providing the full context of the discussion or having a difference of opinion is considered "trolling".
I think this is a great lesson for us all on taking quotes out of context, media sensationalism, and faux outrage.
Not to mention it points out why it is so difficult to have a discussion here.
I don't know about your secret 2014 information.  If this would somehow change my opinion then let me know.  Are you saying Simon was the mastermind of a plot to run a sham of an investigation to clear Nassar?

If you think anyone is holding a gun to your head forcing you to post on this board quit posting and call your local law enforcement.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Death Roe on 2017-05-04, 10:54

Herbie's inability to read and comprehend things makes my head hurt.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-04, 10:55

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

So...the victim should be angry at the Washington Post? And not Strampel for being on Nassar's side?

So...NOT publishing Strampel's email would have made this all better how? By hiding that Strampel was taking Nassar's side?



Thanks Herbie. Your insight is invaluable.


You should be angry at the Washington Post for allowing yourself to be trolled.

Do you think the Washington Post could have possibly secured any other emails that they chose not, or even NOT to publish?

So, now the Washington Post trolled me, and the victim? (And seemingly you)



Yeah...I'm sure they're sitting on a bunch of emails that are pertinent to the case. Should they publish those? Or not? It seemed to be your stance they shouldn't publish emails before...
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-05-04, 10:59

Many here including myself said this was going to get ugly for a lot of people in leadership positions throughout MSU.

LAKS getting the Super Conducting Cyclotron located on campus is probably going to save her. But people like the provost, people incharge of staffing for MSU's medical school and the athletic department are also in the crosshairs.

Kathie Klages is going to be at the center of a lot of bad news because of her association with USA Gymnastics and local gymnastic gyms that used Nassar prior to he joining MSU as the women's gymnatics coach.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2017-05-04, 11:14

GRR Spartan wrote:Many here including myself said this was going to get ugly for a lot of people in leadership positions  throughout MSU.

LAKS getting the Super Conducting Cyclotron located on campus is probably going to save her.  But people like the provost, people incharge of staffing for MSU's medical school and the athletic department are also in the crosshairs.

Kathie Klages is going to be at the center of a lot of bad news because of her association with USA Gymnastics and local gymnastic gyms that used Nassar prior to he joining MSU as the women's gymnatics coach.
I'm not sure LAKS will ultimately survive this - yes the cyclotron is a big deal, etc - but I don't even think the cyclotron itself is powerful enough to gloss over some of the very serious allegations involved with Nassar.

I do get the feeling that Klages - who seems to have been grossly negligent in many ways - is looking like she's being set up as a scapegoat. Though I don't think that will work out for the higher ups. As we all seem to know, this is a very big deal - totally overshadowing anything that ever happened with the horrifying Sandusky/Penn State situation. It simply involves a non-revenue sport which is at lot of people's saving grace - for now.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 11:18

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

You should be angry at the Washington Post for allowing yourself to be trolled.

Do you think the Washington Post could have possibly secured any other emails that they chose not, or even NOT to publish?

So, now the Washington Post trolled me, and the victim? (And seemingly you)



Yeah...I'm sure they're sitting on a bunch of emails that are pertinent to the case. Should they publish those? Or not? It seemed to be your stance they shouldn't publish emails before...

What if they have hundreds of emails and documentation demonstrating how MSU was on top of this? Or documents that show MSU is sympathetic to the victims (like as in the other 95% of Simon's letter)? Should they publish those? Or not? Why do you think they might not choose to report from that angle?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-04, 11:42

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

So, now the Washington Post trolled me, and the victim? (And seemingly you)



Yeah...I'm sure they're sitting on a bunch of emails that are pertinent to the case. Should they publish those? Or not? It seemed to be your stance they shouldn't publish emails before...

What if they have hundreds of emails and documentation demonstrating how MSU was on top of this? Or documents that show MSU is sympathetic to the victims (like as in the other 95% of Simon's letter)? Should they publish those? Or not? Why do you think they might not choose to report from that angle?

Are you seriously arguing that MSU was on top of this? (Even hypothetically)


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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Wally Fairway on 2017-05-04, 11:52

GRR Spartan wrote:Many here including myself said this was going to get ugly for a lot of people in leadership positions throughout MSU.

LAKS getting the Super Conducting Cyclotron located on campus is probably going to save her. But people like the provost, people incharge of staffing for MSU's medical school and the athletic department are also in the crosshairs.

Kathie Klages is going to be at the center of a lot of bad news because of her association with USA Gymnastics and local gymnastic gyms that used Nassar prior to he joining MSU as the women's gymnatics coach.

Since some want to make meaningless factual corrections, I figured I would too.
The National Superconducting Cyclotron Laboratory construction started in 1961, the K50 cyclotron which was upgraded in 1981 to the K500, again in 1988 to the K1200; all of which had nothing to do with LAKS.
What you meant to say is the FRIB that is a completely different which was approved in 2008 and is currently under construction on campus. As is set to begin operations in 2022, provided that there is continued funding.

http://www.nscl.msu.edu/about/history.html
{total dick post on my part - but whatever}

now back to your regularly scheduled programming

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-05-04, 12:06

Herbie Green wrote:Good post Wally. It is nice to have someone capable of adding to the discussion. You make some very good points although I still have trouble extending the faults up to Simon or Hollis.
I think it is obvious what kind of article the Post wanted to write. I have waited since the start of this whole story for these cover up emails and meetings with Simon and Hollis. I find it hard to believe that the MSU Title IX investigation and police investigation(s) were all elaborate cover ups. And these doctors that served as expert witnesses all knowingly lied about medical practice to enable a child molestor.
While procedures were put in place to have additional people in the room, I do think the apparent lack of follow up by MSU is one of the worst aspects, along with the gymnastics coach and anyone else at MSU that didn't report allegations. Perhaps this is enough to sue the crap out of MSU but I guess I still see those as failures of individuals rather than the institution. Saying Simon and Hollis are guilty because "you are responsible for employing someone" that failed to report allegations they heard in confidence seems beyond a stretch to me. Is every leader of an organization responsible for all actions of all those below them on the org chart? Or does that only apply at Universities? There would be no way one could survive as a leader if that is the standard.
Yes and no to the bolded part. I don't think the University, Hollis, Simon, etc. bear any responsibility for the CP that he had on his computer, nor for the molestation of girls in the pool. However, when he used University resources, and his position at the University, to repeatedly violate kids for 20 years, then there is a certain amount of responsibility that the University bears. If the people and processes that were in place to deal with something like this were careless, inept, and/or negligent in their handling of the accusations, then there is even more responsibility that the University bears.

Were Hollis and Simon personally careless, inept, or negligent with regard to this? Probably not. And unless they were, I doubt they will face criminal prosecution. However, as leaders of the organization that bears the responsibility mentioned in my above paragraph, they could be in hot water in terms of their positions with the University. It's not necessarily fair to them personally, but that comes with positions of power, and they have to know going in that they bear some responsibility for the actions of those underneath them. It happens in business, government, the military, etc., where higher ups lose their jobs because their underlings did something wrong.

Cynically, you may think Hollis and Simon are just scapegoats because a doctor, a coach, or a dean, all of whom few people had ever heard of, is not a big enough scalp for the outraged masses, and they want someone of power to pay a price just so they feel that "something was done". This may be the case to an extent, but right or wrong, it's the way of the world.

Hell, I don't know if Hollis and Simon should lose their jobs over this or not, but they do deserve to be in some hot water and face a lot of scrutiny over this.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 12:19

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Many here including myself said this was going to get ugly for a lot of people in leadership positions  throughout MSU.

LAKS getting the Super Conducting Cyclotron located on campus is probably going to save her.  But people like the provost, people incharge of staffing for MSU's medical school and the athletic department are also in the crosshairs.

Kathie Klages is going to be at the center of a lot of bad news because of her association with USA Gymnastics and local gymnastic gyms that used Nassar prior to he joining MSU as the women's gymnatics coach.
I'm not sure LAKS will ultimately survive this - yes the cyclotron is a big deal, etc - but I don't even think the cyclotron itself is powerful enough to gloss over some of the very serious allegations involved with Nassar.

I do get the feeling that Klages - who seems to have been grossly negligent in many ways - is looking like she's being set up as a scapegoat. Though I don't think that will work out for the higher ups. As we all seem to know, this is a very big deal - totally overshadowing anything that ever happened with the horrifying Sandusky/Penn State situation. It simply involves a non-revenue sport which is at lot of people's saving grace - for now.

Is she really a "scapegoat"? Or is she actually to blame?

The other major difference with PSU, besides it not involving revenue sports, is that a PSU assistant coach reported it to the head coach that reported it on up to the AD and President.

Now I can understand what you are saying as far as scapegoat in that it would make MSU look better to have an individual fall on the sword. But until they come up with evidence that she reported it to her superiors then I still give Hollis and Simon some benefit of the doubt. When evidence of their direct involvement in a cover-up comes to light I will jump in with my own pitchfork. ....I don't doubt they could go down over this whether that connection is ever made or not though

The only case we know the higher ups knew of came from an MSU police investigation and resulted in an actual Title IX investigation. Which brings up another question - weren't the Feds already breathing down MSU's neck about Title IX investigations by 2014? I don't remember the timing but it seemed to start somewhere around then which would have made it highly unlikely that MSU would have tried to pass off some bogus investigation.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-05-04, 12:57

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Many here including myself said this was going to get ugly for a lot of people in leadership positions  throughout MSU.

LAKS getting the Super Conducting Cyclotron located on campus is probably going to save her.  But people like the provost, people incharge of staffing for MSU's medical school and the athletic department are also in the crosshairs.

Kathie Klages is going to be at the center of a lot of bad news because of her association with USA Gymnastics and local gymnastic gyms that used Nassar prior to he joining MSU as the women's gymnatics coach.
I'm not sure LAKS will ultimately survive this - yes the cyclotron is a big deal, etc - but I don't even think the cyclotron itself is powerful enough to gloss over some of the very serious allegations involved with Nassar.

I do get the feeling that Klages - who seems to have been grossly negligent in many ways - is looking like she's being set up as a scapegoat. Though I don't think that will work out for the higher ups. As we all seem to know, this is a very big deal - totally overshadowing anything that ever happened with the horrifying Sandusky/Penn State situation. It simply involves a non-revenue sport which is at lot of people's saving grace - for now.
To be fair, saying that the difference is that it's a non-revenue sport(s) really over-simplifies it. I pointed this out earlier in the thread, but that alone makes it a significant difference in terms of the motive for any higher ups to cover it up, and the status of Paterno and the role of football at PSU makes that difference far greater than it would be if this involved football or even basketball at MSU.

Sandusky also had no professional reason to be alone and naked in the showers with young boys. He did not post a video to YouTube showing correct technique for a football coach to touch naked boys in the shower. He did not have other coaches testifying that touching naked boys is a legitimate coaching technique.

I do not point this out as any sort of justification for what Nasser did versus Sandusky, but there are big differences when it comes to any motivation that would cause the administrations to cover it up, and how each asshole got away with it for so long.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-04, 13:00

Herbie Green wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm not sure LAKS will ultimately survive this - yes the cyclotron is a big deal, etc - but I don't even think the cyclotron itself is powerful enough to gloss over some of the very serious allegations involved with Nassar.

I do get the feeling that Klages - who seems to have been grossly negligent in many ways - is looking like she's being set up as a scapegoat. Though I don't think that will work out for the higher ups. As we all seem to know, this is a very big deal - totally overshadowing anything that ever happened with the horrifying Sandusky/Penn State situation. It simply involves a non-revenue sport which is at lot of people's saving grace - for now.

Is she really a "scapegoat"? Or is she actually to blame?

The other major difference with PSU, besides it not involving revenue sports, is that a PSU assistant coach reported it to the head coach that reported it on up to the AD and President.

Now I can understand what you are saying as far as scapegoat in that it would make MSU look better to have an individual fall on the sword. But until they come up with evidence that she reported it to her superiors then I still give Hollis and Simon some benefit of the doubt. When evidence of their direct involvement in a cover-up comes to light I will jump in with my own pitchfork. ....I don't doubt they could go down over this whether that connection is ever made or not though

The only case we know the higher ups knew of came from an MSU police investigation and resulted in an actual Title IX investigation. Which brings up another question - weren't the Feds already breathing down MSU's neck about Title IX investigations by 2014? I don't remember the timing but it seemed to start somewhere around then which would have made it highly unlikely that MSU would have tried to pass off some bogus investigation.

Bogus? What would make it bogus? The fact that Nassar himself recommended a doctor who he was "very good friends" with, and who later removed patient files at his request? And then resigned before she was fired?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-05-04, 13:02

Klages isn't a "scapegoat".  She was a USA Gymnastics insider as an club coach and as a USA Gymnastics judge.  She parlayed her Great Lakes Gymnastics into her being selected to be MSU's coach.  A constant in Dr. Nassar's presence at USA Gymnastics regional and national events and at MSU was Kathie Klages.  Her undoing was defending Nassar to her team in 2016 after charges were brought.

I don't think LAKS is immune but I believe no one will find a direct denial from LAKS directly or show she was hiding things herself. This is touchy stuff and if people like the provost or a dean at the medical school or Hollis or one of his underlings wrote a report that soft peddled items for which Nassar is accused, LAKS has cover. So long ng as she has cover and support of the BOT she survives.  Badly bruised reputation but she's around to repair it.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-04, 13:41

NigelUno wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

Is she really a "scapegoat"? Or is she actually to blame?

The other major difference with PSU, besides it not involving revenue sports, is that a PSU assistant coach reported it to the head coach that reported it on up to the AD and President.

Now I can understand what you are saying as far as scapegoat in that it would make MSU look better to have an individual fall on the sword. But until they come up with evidence that she reported it to her superiors then I still give Hollis and Simon some benefit of the doubt. When evidence of their direct involvement in a cover-up comes to light I will jump in with my own pitchfork. ....I don't doubt they could go down over this whether that connection is ever made or not though

The only case we know the higher ups knew of came from an MSU police investigation and resulted in an actual Title IX investigation. Which brings up another question - weren't the Feds already breathing down MSU's neck about Title IX investigations by 2014? I don't remember the timing but it seemed to start somewhere around then which would have made it highly unlikely that MSU would have tried to pass off some bogus investigation.

Bogus? What would make it bogus? The fact that Nassar himself recommended a doctor who he was "very good friends" with, and who later removed patient files at his request? And then resigned before she was fired?

There were three other medical experts Nigel. And the MSU police did their own investigation that was forwarded to the Ingham County Prosecutor who declined to press charges, also claiming it as "legitimate medical procedure".
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-04, 13:52

Herbie Green wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Bogus? What would make it bogus? The fact that Nassar himself recommended a doctor who he was "very good friends" with, and who later removed patient files at his request? And then resigned before she was fired?

There were three other medical experts Nigel. And the MSU police did their own investigation that was forwarded to the Ingham County Prosecutor who declined to press charges, also claiming it as "legitimate medical procedure".



Geezuz, Herbie.

Did you know that investigation was re-opened? And then closed?

Do you know why?

Are you trying to set some sort of record for being uninformed, uneducated, and just downright idiotic in one thread?

You seem to be going out of you way to take the side of Nassar. Are you friends with the guy?
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