More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-26, 18:35

MSU addict wrote:
DWags wrote:Yeah, at this point enough bad shit has come out where I don't see what information could now come out and make MSU look "good" in this.   I'm just wondering where the fire wall is that will stop people up the ladder from being fired.   Who "knew" enough and just blew it off to the point where they can be considered a contributor to his salvage behavior?  Who is real deniability in it that is both factual and believable.   Most important thing is that we keep the victims in mind first and foremost going forward.
There are situations where it is never acceptable to stick your head in the sand and claim you did not know.

If you do that when a player is smoking weed, maybe takes some money, I understand it.

But when you get wind of a child, or children, being sexually abused it is NEVER acceptable.  Ignoring the situation and seeking plausible deniability has one outcome - children continue to be abused and more children become victimized.

When you are in charge you set the tone and like it or not, you have a responsibility to ensure that you do everything in your power to investigate even the hint of child sexual abuse.
I agree. It's hard to wrap my head around it being malicious or intentional, like "I know this dude is touching these girls inappropriately, but oh well, I'll just pretend I don't know". That's pretty monstrous to think like that. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's just hard to imagine.

But I think it's very easy to let your own biases or disbelief impact how you look something. It's basically confirmation bias, you see what you want to see. You start thinking, "I know this guy and his family, have known him for years. He's one of the most respected in his field. Surely he couldn't be capable of this, right? The girls don't know the medical stuff like he did, they must have just misinterpreted something." It's how he could get away with it for so long, and how many molesters do. Child molesters aren't all anti-social freaks in a windowless van. They can be teachers, coaches, fathers, uncles, etc. They often have access to kids, and have earned trust from parents, friends, family, and the community which gives them the opportunities not only to do something, but to get away with it, sometimes for years.

It's natural to have these biases toward someone you know, but when it comes to something so abhorrent, especially involving children, you need to take precautions. Fine, you don't believe the kid making some accusations. But it should at least raise your antenna, make you more vigilant, etc. You may not believe it, but are you willing to bet the safety and well-being of children on that? At the very least, that's where Klages and others at MSU failed, and such carelessness/negligence should be punished.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 18:52

Clarett's Folly wrote:It's already costing us basketball recruits per Vlad!!

And football recruits, but that goes without saying I guess. Would you want to send your kid to play at a school that has multiple rape/assault investigations ongoing?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Blanch32 on 2017-04-26, 19:00

loose wouldn't have that problem....
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Clarett's Folly on 2017-04-26, 19:10

If my kid was a highly sought after football recruit I'd send him to ISIS University if they paid me enough.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 19:27

Clarett's Folly wrote:If my kid was a highly sought after football recruit I'd send him to ISIS University if they paid me enough.

Wow...I did not see that coming.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-26, 19:42

Vlad wrote:
Clarett's Folly wrote:It's already costing us basketball recruits per Vlad!!

And football recruits, but that goes without saying I guess. Would you want to send your kid  to play at a school that has multiple rape/assault investigations ongoing?
If your kid is a D1 level football/basketball player, why would you let that impact your decision?  Will your kid be raped, or turned into a rapist by going there?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 19:47

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Vlad wrote:

And football recruits, but that goes without saying I guess. Would you want to send your kid  to play at a school that has multiple rape/assault investigations ongoing?
If your kid is a D1 level football/basketball player, why would you let that impact your decision?  Will your kid be raped, or turned into a rapist by going there?

How can I know for sure? The doubt is certainly there. But it's more about the administration. Who's running this shit show where multiple athletes are raping fellow students or other young women?

In any case, if my DI athlete kid (yeah right!) has multiple offers from quality schools, and one of those schools is currently in the middle of multiple investigations of this ugly nature, I think I might just steer him towards some of those other schools. But that's just me. I understand if you would ignore all that stuff.


Last edited by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 19:50; edited 1 time in total

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-04-26, 19:49

MiamiSpartan wrote:I agree.  It's hard to wrap my head around it being malicious or intentional, like "I know this dude is touching these girls inappropriately, but oh well, I'll just pretend I don't know".  That's pretty monstrous to think like that.  Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's just hard to imagine.  

But I think it's very easy to let your own biases or disbelief impact how you look something.  It's basically confirmation bias, you see what you want to see.  You start thinking, "I know this guy and his family, have known him for years.  He's one of the most respected in his field.  Surely he couldn't be capable of this, right?  The girls don't know the medical stuff like he did, they must have just misinterpreted something."  It's how he could get away with it for so long, and how many molesters do.  Child molesters aren't all anti-social freaks in a windowless van.  They can be teachers, coaches, fathers, uncles, etc.  They often have access to kids, and have earned trust from parents, friends, family, and the community which gives them the opportunities not only to do something, but to get away with it, sometimes for years.  

It's natural to have these biases toward someone you know, but when it comes to something so abhorrent, especially involving children, you need to take precautions.  Fine, you don't believe the kid making some accusations.  But it should at least raise your antenna, make you more vigilant, etc.  You may not believe it, but are you willing to bet the safety and well-being of children on that?  At the very least, that's where Klages and others at MSU failed, and such carelessness/negligence should be punished.
I too have a hard time believing it is even fathomable. I just go back to the basics.  

He was hired in 1997, MSU reportedly received its first complaint (to Klages) in 1997.

Over 100 victims have come forward, I have to believe the actual number is many more than that.  I can't believe anyone doing a credible investigation would have a hard time finding multiple victims.

Complaints were made to multiple MSU coaches and trainers in at least different three sports.  

Investigations by MSU were handled internally and his medical procedures reviewed by MSU staff - his colleagues.

Investigations by MSU found no wrong doing when in fact crimes were committed.

Not to play Vlad, but I think there is a choice between labeling it "turning a blind eye" or stupidity.

It just makes me sad, and angry.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 19:53

MSU addict wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:I agree.  It's hard to wrap my head around it being malicious or intentional, like "I know this dude is touching these girls inappropriately, but oh well, I'll just pretend I don't know".  That's pretty monstrous to think like that.  Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's just hard to imagine.  

But I think it's very easy to let your own biases or disbelief impact how you look something.  It's basically confirmation bias, you see what you want to see.  You start thinking, "I know this guy and his family, have known him for years.  He's one of the most respected in his field.  Surely he couldn't be capable of this, right?  The girls don't know the medical stuff like he did, they must have just misinterpreted something."  It's how he could get away with it for so long, and how many molesters do.  Child molesters aren't all anti-social freaks in a windowless van.  They can be teachers, coaches, fathers, uncles, etc.  They often have access to kids, and have earned trust from parents, friends, family, and the community which gives them the opportunities not only to do something, but to get away with it, sometimes for years.  

It's natural to have these biases toward someone you know, but when it comes to something so abhorrent, especially involving children, you need to take precautions.  Fine, you don't believe the kid making some accusations.  But it should at least raise your antenna, make you more vigilant, etc.  You may not believe it, but are you willing to bet the safety and well-being of children on that?  At the very least, that's where Klages and others at MSU failed, and such carelessness/negligence should be punished.
I too have a hard time believing it is even fathomable. I just go back to the basics.  

He was hired in 1997, MSU reportedly received its first complaint (to Klages) in 1997.

Over 100 victims have come forward, I have to believe the actual number is many more than that.  I can't believe anyone doing a credible investigation would have a hard time finding multiple victims.

Complaints were made to multiple MSU coaches and trainers in at least different three sports.  

Investigations by MSU were handled internally and his medical procedures reviewed by MSU staff - his colleagues.

Investigations by MSU found no wrong doing when in fact crimes were committed.

Not to play Vlad, but I think there is a choice between labeling it "turning a blind eye" or stupidity.

It just makes me sad, and angry.

It's ok, I mostly just say what the nancies are thinking but are afraid to say out loud. (This ISN'T hurting recruiting?? Yeah, sure, tell me another story gramps!)

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Clarett's Folly on 2017-04-26, 20:13

Oh Vladimir... Sweet sweet Vladimir.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-26, 20:16

MSU addict wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:I agree.  It's hard to wrap my head around it being malicious or intentional, like "I know this dude is touching these girls inappropriately, but oh well, I'll just pretend I don't know".  That's pretty monstrous to think like that.  Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's just hard to imagine.  

But I think it's very easy to let your own biases or disbelief impact how you look something.  It's basically confirmation bias, you see what you want to see.  You start thinking, "I know this guy and his family, have known him for years.  He's one of the most respected in his field.  Surely he couldn't be capable of this, right?  The girls don't know the medical stuff like he did, they must have just misinterpreted something."  It's how he could get away with it for so long, and how many molesters do.  Child molesters aren't all anti-social freaks in a windowless van.  They can be teachers, coaches, fathers, uncles, etc.  They often have access to kids, and have earned trust from parents, friends, family, and the community which gives them the opportunities not only to do something, but to get away with it, sometimes for years.  

It's natural to have these biases toward someone you know, but when it comes to something so abhorrent, especially involving children, you need to take precautions.  Fine, you don't believe the kid making some accusations.  But it should at least raise your antenna, make you more vigilant, etc.  You may not believe it, but are you willing to bet the safety and well-being of children on that?  At the very least, that's where Klages and others at MSU failed, and such carelessness/negligence should be punished.
I too have a hard time believing it is even fathomable. I just go back to the basics.  

He was hired in 1997, MSU reportedly received its first complaint (to Klages) in 1997.

Over 100 victims have come forward, I have to believe the actual number is many more than that.  I can't believe anyone doing a credible investigation would have a hard time finding multiple victims.

Complaints were made to multiple MSU coaches and trainers in at least different three sports.  

Investigations by MSU were handled internally and his medical procedures reviewed by MSU staff - his colleagues.

Investigations by MSU found no wrong doing when in fact crimes were committed.

Not to play Vlad, but I think there is a choice between labeling it "turning a blind eye" or stupidity.

It just makes me sad, and angry.
Ok, but the 100+ victims are coming forward now, after it's out in the public. Knowing that others experienced the same thing will often embolden victims to come forward. We see this often, where once an accusation makes the news, others come forward (Bill Cosby, as another high profile example recently). In these Nasser cases, these 100+ victims likely knew something wasn't right, but were either told that it was legitimate, or were too afraid to really take a stand on it. Very few of them likely ever heard about the other allegations. So I think it could be hard to find multiple victims when you're not doing a public investigation, short of going to see every one of his patients (and maybe that's where the investigations failed, if they didn't really ask other patients).

Also, it wasn't just MSU doing internal investigations. There were at least two police investigations that did not result in anything. And as at least one of the MSU investigations was Title IX, I don't know if that would have been an investigation just for show. Title IX is serious business, and skirting that would have serious federal consequences that go well beyond the athletic department. Just doesn't seem like the kind of thing a school would fuck around with.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by InTenSity on 2017-04-26, 20:19

MSU addict wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:I agree.  It's hard to wrap my head around it being malicious or intentional, like "I know this dude is touching these girls inappropriately, but oh well, I'll just pretend I don't know".  That's pretty monstrous to think like that.  Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's just hard to imagine.  

But I think it's very easy to let your own biases or disbelief impact how you look something.  It's basically confirmation bias, you see what you want to see.  You start thinking, "I know this guy and his family, have known him for years.  He's one of the most respected in his field.  Surely he couldn't be capable of this, right?  The girls don't know the medical stuff like he did, they must have just misinterpreted something."  It's how he could get away with it for so long, and how many molesters do.  Child molesters aren't all anti-social freaks in a windowless van.  They can be teachers, coaches, fathers, uncles, etc.  They often have access to kids, and have earned trust from parents, friends, family, and the community which gives them the opportunities not only to do something, but to get away with it, sometimes for years.  

It's natural to have these biases toward someone you know, but when it comes to something so abhorrent, especially involving children, you need to take precautions.  Fine, you don't believe the kid making some accusations.  But it should at least raise your antenna, make you more vigilant, etc.  You may not believe it, but are you willing to bet the safety and well-being of children on that?  At the very least, that's where Klages and others at MSU failed, and such carelessness/negligence should be punished.
I too have a hard time believing it is even fathomable. I just go back to the basics.  

He was hired in 1997, MSU reportedly received its first complaint (to Klages) in 1997.

Over 100 victims have come forward, I have to believe the actual number is many more than that.  I can't believe anyone doing a credible investigation would have a hard time finding multiple victims.

Complaints were made to multiple MSU coaches and trainers in at least different three sports.  

Investigations by MSU were handled internally and his medical procedures reviewed by MSU staff - his colleagues.

Investigations by MSU found no wrong doing when in fact crimes were committed.

Not to play Vlad, but I think there is a choice between labeling it "turning a blind eye" or stupidity.

It just makes me sad, and angry.
In the story earlier in the thread, USA Gymnastics and MSU were not communicating. Hindsight is 20/20, but I don't think this is as easy as you guys want it to be. MSU will be raked through the coals, don't worry about that. I still don't think that its going to come out that MSU is part of a huge cover up. It is probably more of those that were in positions of power, were also friends and trusted each other. Because of that, and because of the procedures that were being used, its going to be a lot harder than a lot of you think to prove a cover up. At least not one that was done on purpose. Dr's. are given a lot of leeway and power, whatever, those of you who want MSU to burn to the ground will keep hoping for that, and those of you who want MSU to come through without any egg on the face will keep hoping for that. Its going to fall somewhere in the middle and most likely directly in the middle of guilty and not guilty.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-26, 20:39

Vlad wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
If your kid is a D1 level football/basketball player, why would you let that impact your decision?  Will your kid be raped, or turned into a rapist by going there?

How can I know for sure? The doubt is certainly there. But it's more about the administration. Who's running this shit show where multiple athletes are raping fellow students or other young women?

In any case, if my DI athlete kid (yeah right!) has multiple offers from quality schools, and one of those schools is currently in the middle of multiple investigations of this ugly nature, I think I might just steer him towards some of those other schools. But that's just me. I understand if you would ignore all that stuff.
Nasser was an MSU athlete? I mean, that's what this thread is about. You said that the Nasser case is hurting recruiting, but now you're talking about the other cases.

Now, try to set aside the fact that you're just saying all of this to troll and think logically for a second. Is it only rapes involving athletes that bother you? What about rape cases that don't make the news? When/if you look at colleges for your kids, are you asking them for a breakdown of rape charges against students? If so, how many colleges do you expect to find that haven't had any in the past year? You certainly didn't attend a rape free University. This is by no means a "it happens everywhere, no big deal" comment. This is simply to point out that if you're trying to avoid schools where students commit rape/get raped, good luck. The statistics are fucking horrible, and it's not just faceless statistics. I personally knew three rape victims while at MSU, and that's just that I know of. One was an athlete, if that makes it more important to you.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 20:57

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Vlad wrote:

How can I know for sure? The doubt is certainly there. But it's more about the administration. Who's running this shit show where multiple athletes are raping fellow students or other young women?

In any case, if my DI athlete kid (yeah right!) has multiple offers from quality schools, and one of those schools is currently in the middle of multiple investigations of this ugly nature, I think I might just steer him towards some of those other schools. But that's just me. I understand if you would ignore all that stuff.
Nasser was an MSU athlete?  I mean, that's what this thread is about.  You said that the Nasser case is hurting recruiting, but now you're talking about the other cases.  

Now, try to set aside the fact that you're just saying all of this to troll and think logically for a second.  Is it only rapes involving athletes that bother you?  What about rape cases that don't make the news?  When/if you look at colleges for your kids, are you asking them for a breakdown of rape charges against students?  If so, how many colleges do you expect to find that haven't had any in the past year?  You certainly didn't attend a rape free University.  This is by no means a "it happens everywhere, no big deal" comment.  This is simply to point out that if you're trying to avoid schools where students commit rape/get raped, good luck.  The statistics are fucking horrible, and it's not just faceless statistics.  I personally knew three rape victims while at MSU, and that's just that I know of.  One was an athlete, if that makes it more important to you.

I think you're overthinking this. These multiple cases (Nasser and the others) are very likely hurting recruiting. No way to prove it, but very likely. Agree or disagree?

Try to keep this to MSU's current recruiting struggles, not to all rape cases in all situations at every school in the world. Focus Miami, focus!

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Blanch32 on 2017-04-26, 20:59

LAKS just took my advice. smart woman!! lol
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-26, 21:20

Vlad wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Nasser was an MSU athlete?  I mean, that's what this thread is about.  You said that the Nasser case is hurting recruiting, but now you're talking about the other cases.  

Now, try to set aside the fact that you're just saying all of this to troll and think logically for a second.  Is it only rapes involving athletes that bother you?  What about rape cases that don't make the news?  When/if you look at colleges for your kids, are you asking them for a breakdown of rape charges against students?  If so, how many colleges do you expect to find that haven't had any in the past year?  You certainly didn't attend a rape free University.  This is by no means a "it happens everywhere, no big deal" comment.  This is simply to point out that if you're trying to avoid schools where students commit rape/get raped, good luck.  The statistics are fucking horrible, and it's not just faceless statistics.  I personally knew three rape victims while at MSU, and that's just that I know of.  One was an athlete, if that makes it more important to you.

I think you're overthinking this. These multiple cases (Nasser and the others) are very likely hurting recruiting. No way to prove it, but very likely. Agree or disagree?

Try to keep this to MSU's current recruiting struggles, not to all rape cases in all situations at every school in the world. Focus Miami, focus!
Disagree.

I'm sorry that you didn't like that your trolling, err logic, got shot down. You took this away from MSU recruiting by talking about other schools that you would send your kid to because of rape cases at MSU, but when the fallacy of that gets pointed out, you want me to "focus" on MSU recruiting (isn't there a thread for MSU recruiting?). But it sounds like, for the sake of your trolling, you would only be concerned about rape cases that make big headlines if you were looking at where to send your kid.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-04-26, 21:31

MiamiSpartan wrote:Ok, but the 100+ victims are coming forward now, after it's out in the public.  Knowing that others experienced the same thing will often embolden victims to come forward.  We see this often, where once an accusation makes the news, others come forward (Bill Cosby, as another high profile example recently).  In these Nasser cases, these 100+ victims likely knew something wasn't right, but were either told that it was legitimate, or were too afraid to really take a stand on it.  Very few of them likely ever heard about the other allegations.  So I think it could be hard to find multiple victims when you're not doing a public investigation, short of going to see every one of his patients (and maybe that's where the investigations failed, if they didn't really ask other patients).

Also, it wasn't just MSU doing internal investigations.  There were at least two police investigations that did not result in anything.  And as at least one of the MSU investigations was Title IX, I don't know if that would have been an investigation just for show.  Title IX is serious business, and skirting that would have serious federal consequences that go well beyond the athletic department.  Just doesn't seem like the kind of thing a school would fuck around with.
Not to beat a dead horse and please correct me if I am wrong - but:

The two police investigations you cite were MSU's own police department.  I know there was also a separate investigation by the Mason PD unrelated to MSU. 

The Title IX investigations were done by MSU's Title IX office which has been investigated by the US Department of Education.  I believe MSU's Title IX office has only ruled on one (March, 2017) of nine cases against Nassar finding him Guilty.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 21:31

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Vlad wrote:

I think you're overthinking this. These multiple cases (Nasser and the others) are very likely hurting recruiting. No way to prove it, but very likely. Agree or disagree?

Try to keep this to MSU's current recruiting struggles, not to all rape cases in all situations at every school in the world. Focus Miami, focus!
Disagree.  

I'm sorry that you didn't like that your trolling, err logic, got shot down.  You took this away from MSU recruiting by talking about other schools that you would send your kid to because of rape cases at MSU, but when the fallacy of that gets pointed out, you want me to "focus" on MSU recruiting (isn't there a thread for MSU recruiting?).  But it sounds like, for the sake of your trolling, you would only be concerned about rape cases that make big headlines if you were looking at where to send your kid.

You disagree with me?? A nancy disagrees with me?? Well there's a shocker!!  

I think you're underplaying the impact these investigations are having on our recruiting. We're striking out left and right man. It wasn't that long ago that we were selling results, now we can't even sell hope!

I HOPE we land a meaningful recruit soon, just to break out of this funk, but it's not looking good. Hopefully we get one tonight?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-04-26, 22:08

Vlad the lead shit bird lands again. His wingmen will appear shortly.

Football recruiting is suffering from a perfect storm of PSU and umma along with OSU making great use of the monies generated by their 100,000+ seat stadiums while MSU goes through a 3-9 season followed suspended players, an arrested player and Reschke's actions which blew open lockroom rancor.

Shit hapens. We know that because shitbirds like Vlad show up here everytime.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-26, 22:14

MSU addict wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:Ok, but the 100+ victims are coming forward now, after it's out in the public.  Knowing that others experienced the same thing will often embolden victims to come forward.  We see this often, where once an accusation makes the news, others come forward (Bill Cosby, as another high profile example recently).  In these Nasser cases, these 100+ victims likely knew something wasn't right, but were either told that it was legitimate, or were too afraid to really take a stand on it.  Very few of them likely ever heard about the other allegations.  So I think it could be hard to find multiple victims when you're not doing a public investigation, short of going to see every one of his patients (and maybe that's where the investigations failed, if they didn't really ask other patients).

Also, it wasn't just MSU doing internal investigations.  There were at least two police investigations that did not result in anything.  And as at least one of the MSU investigations was Title IX, I don't know if that would have been an investigation just for show.  Title IX is serious business, and skirting that would have serious federal consequences that go well beyond the athletic department.  Just doesn't seem like the kind of thing a school would fuck around with.
Not to beat a dead horse and please correct me if I am wrong - but:

The two police investigations you cite were MSU's own police department.  I know there was also a separate investigation by the Mason PD unrelated to MSU. 

The Title IX investigations were done by MSU's Title IX office which has been investigated by the US Department of Education.  I believe MSU's Title IX office has only ruled on one (March, 2017) of nine cases against Nassar finding him Guilty.
According to the Washington Post article on the previous page (which seems to be a good summary of everything), the 2004 police investigation was by Meridian Township. The 2014 investigation was MSU police.

Fair point that MSU has had issues with the DOE over Title IX. I think that's more recent than the 2014 Title IX investigation of Nasser, right? So while that's all the more reason for them to be very by the book now, that may not have been the case in 2014.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-26, 22:30

Vlad wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Disagree.  

I'm sorry that you didn't like that your trolling, err logic, got shot down.  You took this away from MSU recruiting by talking about other schools that you would send your kid to because of rape cases at MSU, but when the fallacy of that gets pointed out, you want me to "focus" on MSU recruiting (isn't there a thread for MSU recruiting?).  But it sounds like, for the sake of your trolling, you would only be concerned about rape cases that make big headlines if you were looking at where to send your kid.

You disagree with me?? A nancy disagrees with me?? Well there's a shocker!!  

I think you're underplaying the impact these investigations are having on our recruiting. We're striking out left and right man. It wasn't that long ago that we were selling results, now we can't even sell hope!

I HOPE we land a meaningful recruit soon, just to break out of this funk, but it's not looking good. Hopefully we get one tonight?
And here Vlad goes with the labels and name calling. I remember when your boy, Herbie said just a few days ago, that your "group" don't resort to that.

I think you're overplaying the impact these investigations are having on our recruiting. What do you have to base that on? Because we've missed on some recruits? I'm sure a 3-9 season has nothing to do with that.

But you're trolling, and that's pretty much been proven, so logic gets discarded.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Vlad on 2017-04-26, 22:59

What name did I call you? You object to being called a Nancy? That's pretty mild stuff Miami. Grow a pair.

In any case, you're trying too hard to disagree. Let it happen naturally, on issues where there really is some room for disagreement. Let the game come to you.

P.S., we just missed on Smith. He chose scenic Champaign Illinois.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-04-27, 00:04

MiamiSpartan wrote:According to the Washington Post article on the previous page (which seems to be a good summary of everything), the 2004 police investigation was by Meridian Township.  The 2014 investigation was MSU police.

Fair point that MSU has had issues with the DOE over Title IX.  I think that's more recent than the 2014 Title IX investigation of Nasser, right?  So while that's all the more reason for them to be very by the book now, that may not have been the case in 2014.
My bad on the Mason PD - I should have said Meridian Township.  I do not think that relates to an MSU student, but I may be wrong and cannot quickly find details.

Weird, but I just got an email from President Simon (not personal, one sent to every donor) in which she says:

When we began the process of revamping our Title IX program in 2014, we planned on assessing it once the program was running for a couple of years. Given all the issues surrounding sexual assault, I feel it is prudent to accelerate the timeline for this review. I will be engaging independent experts to conduct a top-to-bottom review of our Title IX program this fall. The review will allow us to assess our progress and identify opportunities to refine and build on this work for the future.

I think it is fair to say our Title IX office has had some problems, and I do know we have been sued multiple times related to Title IX issues.

Honestly I am not trying to bash MSU.  I just do not think it is appropriate for our president to go with "we did everything we could" argument.  We have some problems, we need to acknowledge our mistakes and we need to fix those problems.  Failing to do so is a failure in our leadership.

That was my original contention and it remains so.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by InTenSity on 2017-04-27, 00:56

I don't think you can acknowledge mistakes. As soon as you do that, you're open to lawsuits. It sucks, but it's reality, so making statements that try to do anything other than saying you done fucked up and are trying to correct mistakes, is the best you can do.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-27, 01:28

Vlad wrote:What name did I call you? You object to being called a Nancy? That's pretty mild stuff Miami. Grow a pair.

In any case, you're trying too hard to disagree. Let it happen naturally, on issues where there really is some room for disagreement. Let the game come to you.

P.S., we just missed on Smith. He chose scenic Champaign Illinois.
Oh, no, a 17 year old didn't choose us. Whatever will we do? And you call others Nancies. (BTW, swing and a miss if you think being called any name by some message board warrior bothers me, you missed the irony).

I don't know who Smith is. Should I be upset? Are we headed for more 3-9 seasons because he didn't choose us? Did he say that he didn't choose us because a gymnastics doctor is a sick piece of shit that touched little kids?

You're the one trolling about things that you don't even believe yourself, but I'm the one that's trying too hard to disagree? You get really frazzled when your argument falls apart.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-27, 01:41

MSU addict wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:According to the Washington Post article on the previous page (which seems to be a good summary of everything), the 2004 police investigation was by Meridian Township.  The 2014 investigation was MSU police.

Fair point that MSU has had issues with the DOE over Title IX.  I think that's more recent than the 2014 Title IX investigation of Nasser, right?  So while that's all the more reason for them to be very by the book now, that may not have been the case in 2014.
My bad on the Mason PD - I should have said Meridian Township.  I do not think that relates to an MSU student, but I may be wrong and cannot quickly find details.

Weird, but I just got an email from President Simon (not personal, one sent to every donor) in which she says:

When we began the process of revamping our Title IX program in 2014, we planned on assessing it once the program was running for a couple of years. Given all the issues surrounding sexual assault, I feel it is prudent to accelerate the timeline for this review. I will be engaging independent experts to conduct a top-to-bottom review of our Title IX program this fall. The review will allow us to assess our progress and identify opportunities to refine and build on this work for the future.

I think it is fair to say our Title IX office has had some problems, and I do know we have been sued multiple times related to Title IX issues.

Honestly I am not trying to bash MSU.  I just do not think it is appropriate for our president to go with "we did everything we could" argument.  We have some problems, we need to acknowledge our mistakes and we need to fix those problems.  Failing to do so is a failure in our leadership.

That was my original contention and it remains so.
I would never suggest that MSU did all it could (though, as InTenSity said, LAKS can't really come out and say that the University screwed up on Nasser with all of these lawsuits hanging out there). In fact, I had said that even if you don't believe something is possible, you still need to take precautions and be vigilant, especially when children are involved, so people absolutely did much less than they could.

My only point is that I don't think any of these coaches, assistants, or administrators acted maliciously in order to help him get away with this, but at least some were negligent and careless, and that deserves punishment. People go to jail all the time for negligence and carelessness, even if they didn't intend to do harm.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by DWags on 2017-04-27, 01:46

MiamiSpartan wrote:
MSU addict wrote:
My bad on the Mason PD - I should have said Meridian Township.  I do not think that relates to an MSU student, but I may be wrong and cannot quickly find details.

Weird, but I just got an email from President Simon (not personal, one sent to every donor) in which she says:



I think it is fair to say our Title IX office has had some problems, and I do know we have been sued multiple times related to Title IX issues.

Honestly I am not trying to bash MSU.  I just do not think it is appropriate for our president to go with "we did everything we could" argument.  We have some problems, we need to acknowledge our mistakes and we need to fix those problems.  Failing to do so is a failure in our leadership.

That was my original contention and it remains so.
I would never suggest that MSU did all it could (though, as InTenSity said, LAKS can't really come out and say that the University screwed up on Nasser with all of these lawsuits hanging out there). In fact, I had said that even if you don't believe something is possible, you still need to take precautions and be vigilant, especially when children are involved, so people absolutely did much less than they could.

My only point is that I don't think any of these coaches, assistants, or administrators acted maliciously in order to help him get away with this, but at least some were negligent and careless, and that deserves punishment. People go to jail all the time for negligence and carelessness, even if they didn't intend to do harm.

I think the head gymnastics coach might be complicit. Especially in her attempt to silence some girls by way of letting them know how great he was and lucky MSU was to have him

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-04-27, 01:57

InTenSity wrote:I don't think you can acknowledge mistakes. As soon as you do that, you're open to lawsuits. It sucks, but it's reality, so making statements that try to do anything other than saying you done fucked up and are trying to correct mistakes, is the best you can do.
I am not an attorney but it seems to me that regardless of what we acknowledge, we are going to be sued - a lot.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by InTenSity on 2017-04-27, 02:39

MSU addict wrote:
InTenSity wrote:I don't think you can acknowledge mistakes. As soon as you do that, you're open to lawsuits. It sucks, but it's reality, so making statements that try to do anything other than saying you done fucked up and are trying to correct mistakes, is the best you can do.
I am not an attorney but it seems to me that regardless of what we acknowledge, we are going to be sued - a lot.
You don't publicly admit guilt. That makes it a very easy car. Anyone can sue for anything, and no matter what the university believes, they can't publicly admit anything, making it easier to get sued.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-04-27, 15:49

DWags wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
I would never suggest that MSU did all it could (though, as InTenSity said, LAKS can't really come out and say that the University screwed up on Nasser with all of these lawsuits hanging out there). In fact, I had said that even if you don't believe something is possible, you still need to take precautions and be vigilant, especially when children are involved, so people absolutely did much less than they could.

My only point is that I don't think any of these coaches, assistants, or administrators acted maliciously in order to help him get away with this, but at least some were negligent and careless, and that deserves punishment. People go to jail all the time for negligence and carelessness, even if they didn't intend to do harm.

I think the head gymnastics coach might be complicit. Especially in her attempt to silence some girls by way of letting them know how great he was and lucky MSU was to have him
Maybe. She seems to have heard the most accusations. However, if it's a matter of his medical procedures crossing a line, and she was convinced early on that it was legit, then I would think that it could become real easy to think, "Well, this girl a couple of years ago misinterpreted it, so this new girl complaining must be misinterpreting, it too. Hundreds of others girl never mentioned anything wrong, so it must just be a few that misunderstood." Meanwhile, his work with USA gymnastics could also have served to set her mind at ease, thinking that they would have noticed if something was amiss. Again, this isn't a defense, as I think it's negligent and careless. Hypothetically, she could have told them not to talk about it and they're lucky to have him because she didn't believe it was anything, and didn't want what she believed to be false accusations drag him through the mud, or cause him to leave MSU.

Then again, maybe she did know, and figured that his name and association with USA Gymnastics was a great recruiting tool, so she let it slide. I think it was that Washington Post article, or maybe another one, that mentioned how she used him in a recruiting letter, saying something like "We have Nasser. Enough said." Fucked up in retrospect, and that recruiting aspect may mean that she is one person involved in this that did have a real stake in keeping it under wraps.

I could see her being either complicit/helpful, or negligent. I try to think the better of people, and want to think that there's no way she could have been ok with knowingly letting a guy fondle kids. But you never know.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-04-27, 16:36

When all this stuff gets filed I think we'll see former MSU gymnastics coach Kathy Klages as a significant connection between MSU gymnatics and Larry Nassar.

She knew the local gymnastics business and was working in it when she was hired as MSU's coach. She's the one who knew the folks at US Gymnastics, the local gyms where Nassar also acted as a trainer and gave him access to MSU gymnasts..
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Wally Fairway on 2017-04-27, 17:47


GRR Spartan wrote:When all this stuff gets filed I think we'll see former MSU gymnastics coach Kathy Klages as a significant connection between MSU gymnatics and Larry Nassar.

She knew the local gymnastics business and was working in it when she was hired as MSU's coach.  She's the one who knew the folks at US Gymnastics, the local gyms where Nassar also acted as a trainer and gave him access to MSU gymnasts..
CSB - I especially like how you glossed over the point of him being in medical practice associated with MSU.

As shit stormy as the whole affiliation with MSU athletics is, IMO the fact that he was a doctor who after graduating from MSU was then employed in the MSU College of Medicine medical practice and there were allegations they were made aware of and they did next to nothing is a huge problem. It doesn't get the coverage that USA Gymnastics bring to the headlines, or even the MSU gymnastics, softball, crew, etc.
But if there is a group in this who should have known that what he was alleged to be doing was not a typical, nor reasonable medical treatment, it is the College of Medicine.

And so that it is clear, and I had to look this up, he was employed by the MSU College of Human Medicine as a physician and associate professor.

And the one of the oddest aspects this situation is that Nassar, who had also served as team Dr for Holt High School, had filed to run for a seat on their Board of Education this past year, and even after the allegations had been made public, although at the time no charges had been filed, Larry Nassar still received over 20% of the votes for the school board election. Proving, at least to me, that there are many people who are just as happy to put their head in the sand and ignore what is happening around them.

tl:dr - MSU medical college is on the top of my list of people who should have stopped Nassar

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-04-27, 17:57

Wally Fairway wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:When all this stuff gets filed I think we'll see former MSU gymnastics coach Kathy Klages as a significant connection between MSU gymnatics and Larry Nassar.

She knew the local gymnastics business and was working in it when she was hired as MSU's coach.  She's the one who knew the folks at US Gymnastics, the local gyms where Nassar also acted as a trainer and gave him access to MSU gymnasts..
CSB - I especially like how you glossed over the point of him being in medical practice associated with MSU.

As shit stormy as the whole affiliation with MSU athletics is, IMO the fact that he was a doctor who after graduating from MSU was then employed in the MSU College of Medicine medical practice and there were allegations they were made aware of and they did next to nothing is a huge problem. It doesn't get the coverage that USA Gymnastics bring to the headlines, or even the MSU gymnastics, softball, crew, etc.
But if there is a group in this who should have known that what he was alleged to be doing was not a typical, nor reasonable medical treatment, it is the College of Medicine.

And so that it is clear, and I had to look this up, he was employed by the MSU College of Human Medicine as a physician and associate professor.

And the one of the oddest aspects this situation is that Nassar, who had also served as team Dr for Holt High School, had filed to run for a seat on their Board of Education this past year, and even after the allegations had been made public, although at the time no charges had been filed, Larry Nassar still received over 20% of the votes for the school board election. Proving, at least to me, that there are many people who are just as happy to put their head in the sand and ignore what is happening around them.

tl:dr - MSU medical college is on the top of my list of people who should have stopped Nassar

I need to go digging for this but I saw a link to a Duke University web site that argued for this digital penetration therapy to be legit and helpful. That had to confuse things too. This is all going to hurt but I have a hard time believing that Klages knew she was doing wrong. I'm thinking she liked him, had heard the procedure helped and from then on her mind was made up that he was in the right.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-04-27, 18:00

I'm saying Kathy Klages has been flying under the radar for a long time and it looks like more than coincedence that Nassar and Klages traveled in the same circle.

I was one who said Nassar's employment with MSU would have a long reach up the organizational chart and no one should be immune. Not the dean(s) who decided to hire him and keep him on staff, not the Provost, not the President's office.

MSU Medical school employed him but his connections n with Klages gave him entre to a host of victims.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-04-27, 18:10

Don't mistake me - I'm not forgiving him. No gloves, no parents, etc, etc - the guy is shady as hell. But it does seem as though the treatment itself if done "correctly" is an accepted procedure.

I can''t find the Duke link....but here's an article describing the treatment.
What was portrayed as medical treatment, alleged victims claim is sexual assault

Doctors interviewed for this story were hesitant to talk specifically about Nassar's medical techniques, since there are recognized forms of intravaginal manipulation that help relieve pain for patients. Some common ones include pelvic floor therapy and myofascial release, both of which focus on manually adjusting muscles inside the vagina.

Dr. Jamie Bartley, an osteopathic urologist for Beaumont Health Systems in metro Detroit, performs manual examinations of pelvic floor muscles inside the vagina, and sometimes refers patients with back, hip or pelvic pain to physical therapists for pelvic floor therapy.

She and Dr. J. Bryan Dixon, a sports-medicine doctor in Marquette, said it is important practitioners explain the procedure to patients and get their consent before performing intravaginal manipulations.

"In some patients, it's definitely indicated and very helpful, as long as it's performed with mutual consent," Bartley said.


A scientific paper published in the Journal of Obstetric Gynecology and Neonatal Nursing in 2012 describes treatment for Myofascial pelvic pain, or pain found in the pelvic floor. It's characterized by "trigger points," small areas in pelvic floor muscles that are painful and can refer pain to other locations as well.

Authors Elizabeth Anne Pastore and Wendy B. Katzman wrote that internal muscle assessment involves a practitioner using a glove to avoid contamination and palpitating a woman's pelvic floor. Initial entry may be painful, the authors note, and doctors should prepare the woman with what to expect, maintain eye contact with the patient, and use lubricant to ease the patient's discomfort.

Continued intravaginal physical therapy would involve releasing fascia - connective tissue -- using "gentle, slow sustained pressures," the article notes. A physical therapist can also elongate a contracted muscle by employing "a contract/relax technique followed by a prolonged stretch."

Dixon said he periodically refers patients to physical therapists who use intravaginal or anal treatments for conditions like chronic pain in the coccyx. He said he usually has a third-party in the room while performing the procedure, both to witness the doctor's actions and provide the patient some comfort.




And a web site advertising someone giving these treatments...

Eliminate Pelvic Pain With Myofascial Release

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Wally Fairway on 2017-04-28, 14:04

for the deniers, you should hope that this is just shitty reporting.

LSJ report - internal Title IX investigations have determined that Nassar violated university policy, but MSU isn't providing details.

Well no shit, sexually assaulting girls should be a violation of university policy. How tone deaf can they be in East Lansing?

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/27/3-more-msu-title-ix-inquires-find-nassar-violated-polices/100851350/

Oh and if you don't want to read all of it, they also report that the reopened 2014 investigation was reclosed as the victim did not reply. Part of the reason for no reply is they went to an old email address, and the victim didn't know about the investigation until the LSJ inquired.
Again no shit, the victim has filed suit and they will see you in court.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-04-28, 14:24

I don't think anyone is denying anything. It's going to be a long ugly process.

I think the only contention was over how much this would affect the other sports programs.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on 2017-04-28, 14:53


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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-04-28, 17:24

Michigan State‏ @Michigan_State 34m34 minutes ago
More
MSU gives suspended Curtis Blackwell another 1-month contract extension bit.ly 2qfko2E #Spartans

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by DWags on 2017-04-28, 17:33

LooseGoose wrote:Michigan State‏ @Michigan_State 34m34 minutes ago
More
MSU gives suspended Curtis Blackwell another 1-month contract extension bit.ly 2qfko2E #Spartans

WTF? We need an attorney to tell us why.

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