More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-04-28, 13:36

DWags wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Michigan State‏ @Michigan_State 34m34 minutes ago
More
MSU gives suspended Curtis Blackwell another 1-month contract extension http://bit.ly/2qfko2E #Spartans

WTF? We need an attorney to tell us why.

Maybe they think he's going to get cleared? Seems like that's not it.

Do we want to run 2 threads? One on the FB situations and one on the gymnastics?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by DWags on 2017-04-28, 14:02

LooseGoose wrote:
DWags wrote:

WTF? We need an attorney to tell us why.

Maybe they think he's going to get cleared? Seems like that's not it.

Do we want to run 2 threads? One on the FB situations and one on the gymnastics?

Sure I'm good with that. I'd like an answer or thought by one of the legal guys on this board. What could MSU be thinking here?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by CORNER BLITZ on 2017-04-28, 14:03

LooseGoose wrote:
DWags wrote:

WTF? We need an attorney to tell us why.

Maybe they think he's going to get cleared?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-04-28, 15:12

DWags wrote:Sure I'm good with that. I'd like an answer or thought by one of the legal guys on this board.  What could MSU be thinking here?
I am not an attorney.  I am, however, in a supervisory role where I work and we occasionally suspend people.  I assume Blackwell has an employment contract.  I have no idea what that contract says about termination for just cause and severance amounts if not renewed.  That said, here are my thoughts:

Blackwell is an exempt employee (meaning salaried, not hourly).  In general, you cannot suspend a salaried (exempt) employee without pay while you investigate misconduct.

In general you should not terminate a person until an investigation is complete.  The investigation is not complete and he has not been charged with a crime.

Not renewing his contract would likely be considered termination.

MSU is in the awkward position of having to extend his contract on a monthly basis because they cannot fire him while they investigate him and they cannot suspend him without pay.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by DWags on 2017-04-28, 15:29

MSU addict wrote:
DWags wrote:Sure I'm good with that. I'd like an answer or thought by one of the legal guys on this board.  What could MSU be thinking here?
I am not an attorney.  I am, however, in a supervisory role where I work and we occasionally suspend people.  I assume Blackwell has an employment contract.  I have no idea what that contract says about termination for just cause and severance amounts if not renewed.  That said, here are my thoughts:

Blackwell is an exempt employee (meaning salaried, not hourly).  In general, you cannot suspend a salaried (exempt) employee without pay while you investigate misconduct.

In general you should not terminate a person until an investigation is complete.  The investigation is not complete and he has not been charged with a crime.

Not renewing his contract would likely be considered termination.

MSU is in the awkward position of having to extend his contract on a monthly basis because they cannot fire him while they investigate him and they cannot suspend him without pay.

Because if he is cleared and they terminate him he'd have a big suit perhaps?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Death Roe on 2017-04-28, 15:33

Yes. They'd rather take the hit paying him now instead of firing him and him being cleared, and paving the way for the massive lawsuit.

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Where to start?
I mean, the first thing with pea soup is the texture, okay?
I've had watery pea soup, it's AWFUL.
Uh, I've had gelatinous, thick pea soup, it's TERRIBLE.
Pea soup, much like clam chowder, needs to have that consistency first, that you can stand the spoon up in it, but the spoon soon tilts, that's the consistency you want.
Number two: Uh, pea soup on it's own can be a little bland. It wants, uh, a fairly aggressive peppering and salting.
Number three: Pea soup needs a fine dice of ham. Not bacon, not any other meat, not turkey. It needs a fine dice of ham.
Uh, number four: Uh, pea soup scorches easily. You don't wanna heat it on a high heat. You wanna heat it on medium low, just until it's warmed through.
Uh, number five: Pea soup is best made, uh, by hand, not out of a Campbell's can. And the key to pea soup, you want a ham bone, uh, for the stock you make, uh, to, to boil your peas.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-04-28, 15:41

DWags wrote:Because if he is cleared and they terminate him he'd have a big suit perhaps?

Again, you would have to look at his contact, but I doubt that MSU would be looking at really big money.  I assume he would certainly get back pay, severance amounts he is due and attorney fees.

That said, the rules are pretty clear and you don't want to flaunt them just to make a stand.

Why on earth do you want to be sued when you can avoid it so easily (by extending his contract monthly and paying him)?  They will end up paying him, one way or another.  

Lawsuits suck.  The Dept of Labor does not like it when you knowingly violate their rules and it can have ramifications in other labor suits.

The best approach is to follow the rules and do what you need to do, even if it is contrary to the desires of message board posters.

EDIT: They may also save some money on severance if they can fire him for just cause (which they cannot do until everything is complete).
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by InTenSity on 2017-04-28, 16:20

Because if he is cleared and they terminate him he'd have a big suit perhaps?
Yes, unlawful termination.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Wally Fairway on 2017-04-30, 17:00

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Gaining steam....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-colleges-willful-blindness-to-a-sexual-assault-scandal/2017/04/27/7084a808-2b78-11e7-b605-33413c691853_story.html?utm_term=.113d4be906e2

Here is anther WP article, that puts a bulls-eye on Klage

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/doctor-at-center-of-usa-gymnastics-scandal-left-warning-signs-at-michigan-state/2017/04/25/eed48834-2530-11e7-a1b3-faff0034e2de_story.html?utm_term=.122969ed121a

(not sure why the football issue is in the Nassar thread)

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-05-01, 22:40

Deadspin weighs in with a pretty well researched article.

The U.S. Gymnastics System Wanted More Medals, And Created A Culture Of Abuse To Get Them

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Wally Fairway on 2017-05-03, 09:21

Rachael Denhollander has written open letters to Lou Anna Simon (President, MSU) and William Strampel (Dean of the College of Human Medicine, MSU).

From the letter to President Simon
I am disturbed by the statement you made
when you told the MSU Board of Trustees, “I have been told it is virtually impossible to stop a
determined sexual predator and pedophile, that they will go to incomprehensible lengths to keep
what they do in the shadows.”
“Virtually impossible to stop a determined predator and pedophile?” President Simon, if this is
what you have been told, you need new advisors.
and
President Simon, you had some very strong and very appropriate words for officials at Penn State
who allowed an abuser like Jerry Sandusky to walk free. I had hoped that same commitment to
protecting children would be present when it came to light that some of those same mistakes were
made under your watch. Children don’t need more authority figures who absolve themselves by
claiming that it is “virtually impossible” to prevent child abuse. They need leaders who have
integrity and passion to defend them

the letter to Simon
http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/michigan/files/open_letters_to_msu_president_lou_anna_k_simon.pdf?_ga=2.39544419.1787903416.1493748056-1282647051.1440964267

the letter to Strampel
http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/michigan/files/an_open_letter_to_william_strampel.pdf?_ga=2.126538830.2113033349.1493748114-1282647051.1440964267

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-05-03, 09:29

I'm pretty sure I'll get torched for this but - Denhollander's letter of outrage to them don't mean much to me.

First she's taking shots at defenseless people, that's not very courageous. Their lawyers aren't going to let them respond and even if they did the media would kill them.

Second - where was Ms Courageous for the last 17 years? She left this monster free to molest for that long by not pressing her issue back in 2000. Where is the criticism of her for THAT?

The second gymnast, Rachael Denhollander of Louisville, Kentucky, told the Indianapolis Star that Nassar sexually abused her in 2000 while she underwent treatment for lower back pain at Michigan State University, where Nassar is a faculty member.

Denhollander, who was 15 at the time, told the Star that Nassar became gradually more abusive over the course of five treatments, including massaging her breasts and penetrating her. She said she filed a complaint last month with university police.

Denhollander said her mother was at the therapy sessions, but that Nassar positioned himself in such a way that she couldn’t see what was happening.

Two gymnasts allege sex abuse by doctor for USA Gymnastics

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 09:38

LooseGoose wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll get torched for this but - Denhollander's letter of outrage to them don't mean much to me.

First she's taking shots at defenseless people, that's not very courageous. Their lawyers aren't going to let them respond and even if they did the media would kill them.

Second - where was Ms Courageous for the last 17 years? She left this monster free to molest for that long by not pressing her issue back in 2000. Where is the criticism of her for THAT?

The second gymnast, Rachael Denhollander of Louisville, Kentucky, told the Indianapolis Star that Nassar sexually abused her in 2000 while she underwent treatment for lower back pain at Michigan State University, where Nassar is a faculty member.

Denhollander, who was 15 at the time, told the Star that Nassar became gradually more abusive over the course of five treatments, including massaging her breasts and penetrating her. She said she filed a complaint last month with university police.

Denhollander said her mother was at the therapy sessions, but that Nassar positioned himself in such a way that she couldn’t see what was happening.

Two gymnasts allege sex abuse by doctor for USA Gymnastics

Are you for real?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-05-03, 09:41

In her coaching stops prior to MSU Klages coached Spring Lake HS for 2 years than went to Blue Lake Gymnastics in Muskegon for another 2 years before moving to the Lansing area to be the head coach at Great Lakes Gymnastics.

She was a high profile club coach and we know Nassar was already "volunteering" as a trainer/doctor back then. The only surprise is MSU's athletic department is so disorganized Klages full bio listing her as the HC of women's gymnastics is still up.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-05-03, 09:45

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll get torched for this but - Denhollander's letter of outrage to them don't mean much to me.

First she's taking shots at defenseless people, that's not very courageous. Their lawyers aren't going to let them respond and even if they did the media would kill them.

Second - where was Ms Courageous for the last 17 years? She left this monster free to molest for that long by not pressing her issue back in 2000. Where is the criticism of her for THAT?



Two gymnasts allege sex abuse by doctor for USA Gymnastics

Are you for real?


Yes, I am. She was 15 years old and felt she had been molested by this guy. Did very little to nothing about about it for 17 years while he ran rampant molesting hundreds of other girls and somehow SHE'S a hero? Her mother was in the room with her as she was being molested yet she said nothing to her mother?? Is that "for real" your definition of courageous?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Wally Fairway on 2017-05-03, 09:46

LooseGoose wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll get torched for this but - Denhollander's letter of outrage to them don't mean much to me.

First she's taking shots at defenseless people, that's not very courageous. Their lawyers aren't going to let them respond and even if they did the media would kill them.

Second - where was Ms Courageous for the last 17 years? She left this monster free to molest for that long by not pressing her issue back in 2000. Where is the criticism of her for THAT?

The second gymnast, Rachael Denhollander of Louisville, Kentucky, told the Indianapolis Star that Nassar sexually abused her in 2000 while she underwent treatment for lower back pain at Michigan State University, where Nassar is a faculty member.

Denhollander, who was 15 at the time, told the Star that Nassar became gradually more abusive over the course of five treatments, including massaging her breasts and penetrating her. She said she filed a complaint last month with university police.

Denhollander said her mother was at the therapy sessions, but that Nassar positioned himself in such a way that she couldn’t see what was happening.

Two gymnasts allege sex abuse by doctor for USA Gymnastics
Looks like Goose is going the PedoState route and accusing the victim.

Hey Goose - Fuck off if you think that has adds any value or somehow defends MSU


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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on 2017-05-03, 09:56

Yeah. That's a very narrow lens to try to look through. Try to open your mind to the possibility that a child or a teen or even a young adult who has been the victim of sexual assault may not see things "rationally" the way a 60 year old adult male does.

Empathy.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 10:01

LooseGoose wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Are you for real?


Yes, I am. She was 15 years old and felt she had been molested by this guy. Did very little to nothing about about it for 17 years while he ran rampant molesting hundreds of other girls and somehow SHE'S a hero? Her mother was in the room with her as she was being molested yet she said nothing to her mother?? Is that "for real" your definition of courageous?

You're doubling down on this?

Geezuz.

It's cute that you're trying to deflect by questioning my definition of courageous. Attacking her is cowardly. Not sure what stance you're trying to take, but it's laughable. You should probably drop it. It's making you look incredibly stupid, insensitive, and biased against victims.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 10:11

So this girl didn't report something until 17 years later and then writes a letter lambasting Simon for what should have been done to stop it?
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Death Roe on 2017-05-03, 10:16

Oh boy. Here we go.

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Where to start?
I mean, the first thing with pea soup is the texture, okay?
I've had watery pea soup, it's AWFUL.
Uh, I've had gelatinous, thick pea soup, it's TERRIBLE.
Pea soup, much like clam chowder, needs to have that consistency first, that you can stand the spoon up in it, but the spoon soon tilts, that's the consistency you want.
Number two: Uh, pea soup on it's own can be a little bland. It wants, uh, a fairly aggressive peppering and salting.
Number three: Pea soup needs a fine dice of ham. Not bacon, not any other meat, not turkey. It needs a fine dice of ham.
Uh, number four: Uh, pea soup scorches easily. You don't wanna heat it on a high heat. You wanna heat it on medium low, just until it's warmed through.
Uh, number five: Pea soup is best made, uh, by hand, not out of a Campbell's can. And the key to pea soup, you want a ham bone, uh, for the stock you make, uh, to, to boil your peas.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-03, 10:23

LooseGoose wrote:Yes, I am.   She was 15 years old and felt she had been molested by this guy.   Did very little to nothing about about it for 17 years while he ran rampant molesting hundreds of other girls and somehow SHE'S a hero?   Her mother was in the room with her as she was being molested yet she said nothing to her mother??  Is that "for real" your definition of courageous?
I am not going to torch you, but I do feel you are wrong.

She was fifteen when she was sexually assaulted by a pedophile.  Pedophiles often get away with their crimes for so long in part because children (she was a child) lack the self confidence, knowledge and wherewithal to report the crime properly.  Often when they do, they are advised by an adult to keep silent.  I would be willing to wager that Nassar did not sexually abuse every one of his patients, but chose vulnerable targets as an experienced pedophile.

That is why it is essential that when such crimes are communicated to adults like coaches and trainers that those reports are not only taken seriously but thoroughly investigated.  We know that a victim complained to MSU (Klages) in 1997, the first year of Nassar's employment.  

Saying the victim should have come forward as child really is blaming the victim.

I would also be willing wager that Ms. Denhollander feels worse about her previous silence than you can imagine.  You have the right to feel her actions are less than courageous.  That said, she is identifying herself as a person and a victim (not Jane Doe #104) in hopes that other children who are being victimized will speak up.  Putting a real face to a victim, instead of some abstract concept of a victim.  I think that takes some level of courage.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Death Roe on 2017-05-03, 10:28

MSU addict wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Yes, I am.   She was 15 years old and felt she had been molested by this guy.   Did very little to nothing about about it for 17 years while he ran rampant molesting hundreds of other girls and somehow SHE'S a hero?   Her mother was in the room with her as she was being molested yet she said nothing to her mother??  Is that "for real" your definition of courageous?
I am not going to torch you, but I do feel you are wrong.

She was fifteen when she was sexually assaulted by a pedophile.  Pedophiles often get away with their crimes for so long in part because children (she was a child) lack the self confidence, knowledge and wherewithal to report the crime properly.  Often when they do, they are advised by an adult to keep silent.  I would be willing to wager that Nassar did not sexually abuse every one of his patients, but chose vulnerable targets as an experienced pedophile.

That is why it is essential that when such crimes are communicate to adults like coaches and trainers that those reports are not only taken seriously but thoroughly investigated.  We know that a victim complained to MSU (Klages) in 1997, the first year of Nassar's employment.  

Saying the victim should have come forward as child really is blaming the victim.

I would also be willing wager that Ms. Denhollander feels worse about her previous silence than you can imagine.  You have the right to feel her actions are less than courageous.  That said, she is identifying herself as a person and a victim (not Jane Doe #104) in hopes that other children who are being victimized will speak up.  Putting a real face to a victim, instead of some abstract concept of a victim.  I think that takes some level of courage.

This is how I feel. Well done.

Not trying to hate on Goose at all.

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SHOCKULAR:
Where to start?
I mean, the first thing with pea soup is the texture, okay?
I've had watery pea soup, it's AWFUL.
Uh, I've had gelatinous, thick pea soup, it's TERRIBLE.
Pea soup, much like clam chowder, needs to have that consistency first, that you can stand the spoon up in it, but the spoon soon tilts, that's the consistency you want.
Number two: Uh, pea soup on it's own can be a little bland. It wants, uh, a fairly aggressive peppering and salting.
Number three: Pea soup needs a fine dice of ham. Not bacon, not any other meat, not turkey. It needs a fine dice of ham.
Uh, number four: Uh, pea soup scorches easily. You don't wanna heat it on a high heat. You wanna heat it on medium low, just until it's warmed through.
Uh, number five: Pea soup is best made, uh, by hand, not out of a Campbell's can. And the key to pea soup, you want a ham bone, uh, for the stock you make, uh, to, to boil your peas.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 10:30

Herbie Green wrote:So this girl didn't report something until 17 years later and then writes a letter lambasting Simon for what should have been done to stop it?

Geezuz (part 2).

Read her letter.  

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Death Roe on 2017-05-03, 10:33

You know you're on the wrong side when Herbie is with you.

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SHOCKULAR:
Where to start?
I mean, the first thing with pea soup is the texture, okay?
I've had watery pea soup, it's AWFUL.
Uh, I've had gelatinous, thick pea soup, it's TERRIBLE.
Pea soup, much like clam chowder, needs to have that consistency first, that you can stand the spoon up in it, but the spoon soon tilts, that's the consistency you want.
Number two: Uh, pea soup on it's own can be a little bland. It wants, uh, a fairly aggressive peppering and salting.
Number three: Pea soup needs a fine dice of ham. Not bacon, not any other meat, not turkey. It needs a fine dice of ham.
Uh, number four: Uh, pea soup scorches easily. You don't wanna heat it on a high heat. You wanna heat it on medium low, just until it's warmed through.
Uh, number five: Pea soup is best made, uh, by hand, not out of a Campbell's can. And the key to pea soup, you want a ham bone, uh, for the stock you make, uh, to, to boil your peas.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-05-03, 10:35

Although I know from other arguments on here that "you're blaming the victim" is supposed to shame me into shutting up I'd rather discuss it.

I don't see myself blaming the victim for anything to do with her getting molested.

I am questioning her moral ground to lambaste President Simon and others for not doing anything.

I see it as a rather simple point that had President Simon known he was molesting girls 17 years ago something would have been done by now.

President Simon didn't know that because a 15 year old girl didn't report him as molesting her.

Defining a 15 year as a "child" is silly. 15 year olds are not children.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-05-03, 10:38

Wally Fairway wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll get torched for this but - Denhollander's letter of outrage to them don't mean much to me.

First she's taking shots at defenseless people, that's not very courageous. Their lawyers aren't going to let them respond and even if they did the media would kill them.

Second - where was Ms Courageous for the last 17 years? She left this monster free to molest for that long by not pressing her issue back in 2000. Where is the criticism of her for THAT?



Two gymnasts allege sex abuse by doctor for USA Gymnastics
Looks like Goose is going the PedoState route and accusing the victim.

Hey Goose - Fuck off if you think that has adds any value or somehow defends MSU


Good to see a rational discussion.

Throw Pedo State out and now you "win". In the Pedo state case the administration knew and hid it, are you inferring that President Simon knew about this for a decade or more and did nothing?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 10:39

LooseGoose wrote:Although I know from other arguments on here that "you're blaming the victim" is supposed to shame me into shutting up I'd rather discuss it.

I don't see myself blaming the victim for anything to do with her getting molested.

I am questioning her moral ground to lambaste President Simon and others for not doing anything.

I see it as a rather simple point that had President Simon known he was molesting girls 17 years ago something would have been done by now.

President Simon didn't know that because a 15 year old girl didn't report him as molesting her.

Defining a 15 year as a "child" is silly. 15 year olds are not children.

You're attacking the victim now, and as a 15 year old?

You have no shame.



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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 10:40

MSU addict wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Yes, I am.   She was 15 years old and felt she had been molested by this guy.   Did very little to nothing about about it for 17 years while he ran rampant molesting hundreds of other girls and somehow SHE'S a hero?   Her mother was in the room with her as she was being molested yet she said nothing to her mother??  Is that "for real" your definition of courageous?
I am not going to torch you, but I do feel you are wrong.

She was fifteen when she was sexually assaulted by a pedophile.  Pedophiles often get away with their crimes for so long in part because children (she was a child) lack the self confidence, knowledge and wherewithal to report the crime properly.  Often when they do, they are advised by an adult to keep silent.  I would be willing to wager that Nassar did not sexually abuse every one of his patients, but chose vulnerable targets as an experienced pedophile.

That is why it is essential that when such crimes are communicated to adults like coaches and trainers that those reports are not only taken seriously but thoroughly investigated.  We know that a victim complained to MSU (Klages) in 1997, the first year of Nassar's employment.  

Saying the victim should have come forward as child really is blaming the victim.

I would also be willing wager that Ms. Denhollander feels worse about her previous silence than you can imagine.  You have the right to feel her actions are less than courageous.  That said, she is identifying herself as a person and a victim (not Jane Doe #104) in hopes that other children who are being victimized will speak up.  Putting a real face to a victim, instead of some abstract concept of a victim.  I think that takes some level of courage.

I don't disagree with anything you say here, but doesn't it actually support the point of how difficult they are to stop?

It makes it especially difficult to stop if it is not reported in the first place. I am disturbed by the adults that did fail to report. Yet even in the case (s) where it was reported he was cleared by the legal system.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-03, 10:50

Herbie Green wrote:I don't disagree with anything you say here, but doesn't it actually support the point of how difficult they are to stop?

It makes it especially difficult to stop if it is not reported in the first place.  I am disturbed by the adults that did fail to report.  Yet even in the case (s) where it was reported he was cleared by the legal system.

I have no disagreement that pedophiles are difficult to stop.

A few pages back in this thread, well prior to Ms. Denhollander letter, I also took exception to President Simon's remarks.

MSU clearly made some mistakes.  I do not think you can dismiss our mistakes by saying “I have been told it is virtually impossible to stop a determined sexual predator and pedophile, that they will go to incomprehensible lengths to keep what they do in the shadows.” as President Simon did.

I think Ms. Denhollander has the right to take President Simon to task for her remarks, remarks that I also found quite offensive.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by InTenSity on 2017-05-03, 10:57

Just read one of the letters. No
Loose, have you read them yet?

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-03, 11:01

LooseGoose wrote:Although I know from other arguments on here that "you're blaming the victim" is supposed to shame me into shutting up I'd rather discuss it.  

I don't see myself blaming the victim for anything to do with her getting molested.

I am questioning her moral ground to lambaste President Simon and others for not doing anything.

I see it as a rather simple point that had President Simon known he was molesting girls 17 years ago something would have been done by now.  

President Simon didn't know that because a 15 year old girl didn't report him as molesting her.  

Defining a 15 year as a "child" is silly.  15 year olds are not children.
I am personally not trying to shut anyone up and appreciate the opportunity to express my views.

Is it fair to say you are blaming an adolescent victim of a pedophile for not speaking up sooner?

Is it also fair to say that even though this victim did not come forward at 15 years of age, that others did - and that MSU did not respond as it should have?

Personally, I do not think those clarifications put you on much higher moral ground.


Last edited by MSU addict on 2017-05-03, 18:17; edited 3 times in total
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 11:03

Herbie Green wrote:
MSU addict wrote:
I am not going to torch you, but I do feel you are wrong.

She was fifteen when she was sexually assaulted by a pedophile.  Pedophiles often get away with their crimes for so long in part because children (she was a child) lack the self confidence, knowledge and wherewithal to report the crime properly.  Often when they do, they are advised by an adult to keep silent.  I would be willing to wager that Nassar did not sexually abuse every one of his patients, but chose vulnerable targets as an experienced pedophile.

That is why it is essential that when such crimes are communicated to adults like coaches and trainers that those reports are not only taken seriously but thoroughly investigated.  We know that a victim complained to MSU (Klages) in 1997, the first year of Nassar's employment.  

Saying the victim should have come forward as child really is blaming the victim.

I would also be willing wager that Ms. Denhollander feels worse about her previous silence than you can imagine.  You have the right to feel her actions are less than courageous.  That said, she is identifying herself as a person and a victim (not Jane Doe #104) in hopes that other children who are being victimized will speak up.  Putting a real face to a victim, instead of some abstract concept of a victim.  I think that takes some level of courage.

I don't disagree with anything you say here, but doesn't it actually support the point of how difficult they are to stop?

It makes it especially difficult to stop if it is not reported in the first place. I am disturbed by the adults that did fail to report. Yet even in the case (s) where it was reported he was cleared by the legal system.


He was cleared in an internal investigation (which seems to have been a little shady).

Ex-MSU doc Larry Nassar suggested expert who helped clear him in 2014



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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 11:10

InTenSity wrote:Just read one of the letters. No
Loose, have you read them yet?

I don't know how anyone could read those letters and attack the victim (now or as a 15 year old).

The comments that Simon and Strampel made in 2014 deserve criticism.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 11:24

MSU addict wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:I don't disagree with anything you say here, but doesn't it actually support the point of how difficult they are to stop?

It makes it especially difficult to stop if it is not reported in the first place.  I am disturbed by the adults that did fail to report.  Yet even in the case (s) where it was reported he was cleared by the legal system.

I have no disagreement that pedophiles are difficult to stop.

A few pages back in this thread, well prior to Ms. Denhollander letter, I also took exception to President Simon's remarks.

MSU clearly made some mistakes.  I do not think you can dismiss our mistakes by saying “I have been told it is virtually impossible to stop a determined sexual predator and pedophile, that they will go to incomprehensible lengths to keep what they do in the shadows.” as President Simon did.

I think Ms. Denhollander has the right to take President Simon to task for her remarks, remarks that I also found quite offensive.

I think Simon's comments are offensive. Then again sometimes the truth is offensive. If I say the woman could have done more to stop him by reporting it at the time then that is offensive - I am blaming the victim. But it is true is it not?

I agree, MSU made mistakes. But has "MSU" grown beyond a couple of individual coaches and trainers that were employed by MSU? She wants Simon to read all these books and become an expert on child molestors, but actually the coaches, trainers and parents would have had to have read them 20 years ago if not also change human nature.
The letter does make the good point that adults need to take accusations seriously and report, but considering she didn't report herself and Simon was never someone that we know was reoorted to, the outrage seems a bit misguided.
I guess in a sense Simon is "MSU" whether she was involved or not. But as MSU, she is getting sued for not reporting. Should she admit that "MSU" failed? Perhaps she could have come across better but she is put in a position where she might have to be a little offensive unless she wants to throw her own school under the bus
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by duffy munn on 2017-05-03, 11:26

15 year olds are definitely children, Loose.

I'm not sure how you could classify them as anything else.

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 11:55

Here are the actual remarks that this letter and associated outrage are based on. Are you still outraged when you take the entire letter and context of the statement into account?

"As victims continue to come forward to police regarding former MSU doctor Larry Nassar, I want to provide an update on our response to this critical situation.

During the past few months, much of our focus has necessarily been on the criminal investigation and ensuring justice is served for all victims. This will continue unabated. As you know, the MSU Police Department continues to aggressively investigate all allegations, dedicating more resources to this investigation than any other while working closely with the Michigan Attorney General and federal law enforcement officials in a case that spans jurisdictions, state lines and even international borders.

Yet even as we examine--through both criminal investigations and a thorough internal review--how something so abhorrent happened here and went on for so long, we are taking action.

Already, we have completed an initial review of MSU HeathTeam policies and practices and have strengthened policies regarding informed consent and the role of chaperones. We are now engaging a comprehensive third-party quality and safety assurance review as we continue our commitment to achieving the highest patient care and safety standards across all MSU clinics, which are being consolidated administratively and financially under the MSU HealthTeam.

Second, I have been told it is virtually impossible to stop a determined sexual predator and pedophile, that they will go to incomprehensible lengths to keep what they do in the shadows. That may be true, but we at MSU must do all we can not only to ensure the safety of our patients but to protect youth who come to our campus in all capacities. As part of a broader programmatic effort that began in 2013, we recently held a workshop for all MSU youth program directors that focused on promoting the safety of minors at MSU, and we will roll out an enhanced youth protection policy and additional education within the next 30 days.

Finally, we must continue to be resolute in our commitment that sexual violence has no place in the MSU community. As many of you know, we have dedicated significant resources to that commitment over the past few years, from introducing and revising our Relationship Violence and Sexual Misconduct policy to creating a new office to oversee Title IX and investigate cases to devoting more resources and personnel to our Sexual Assault Program. And just as important, our campus community has stepped up and is contributing greatly to these efforts. The Sexual Violence Advisory Committee and student leaders such as ASMSU and COGS are playing key roles, and we are grateful for their commitment.

While I take solace in the strong collective work of our community, this is no time to rest. Our progress is simply a reason to redouble our efforts. Sexual assault still plagues our campus and society at large. When we began the process of revamping our Title IX program in 2014, with guidance from both the federal government and external experts, we planned on revisiting our efforts once the program was running for a couple of years to gauge our progress and look at how we could continue to improve. Given all the issues surrounding sexual assault we face as a society and as a campus community, I feel it is prudent to move forward with this review on an expedited schedule. That’s why I will be engaging independent experts to conduct a top-to-bottom review of our Title IX program this fall to accelerate our progress here at MSU.

In closing, I want to once again recognize the courage of each woman who has come forward in the Nassar investigation to share her story with police. On behalf of Michigan State University, I want to acknowledge the pain his actions caused and express how deeply we regret any time someone in our community is a victim.

People come to MSU for a valuable and positive experience, whether for a degree, a summer program, or medical care. Sexual assault must not be part of that experience. While we may recognize that sexual assault and child abuse are societal issues, we cannot ever dismiss them as insurmountable. I am committed to making sure we do everything in our power to work together try to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future, both in our community and the greater society."

--President Lou Anna K. Simon

http://cabs.msu.edu/news/key-issues/issue-docs/nassar-investigation/president-remarks-April2017.html
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-03, 11:57

Herbie Green wrote:I think Simon's comments are offensive.  Then again sometimes the truth is offensive.  If I say the woman could have done more to stop him by reporting it at the time then that is offensive - I am blaming the victim.  But it is true is it not?

I agree, MSU made mistakes.  But has "MSU" grown beyond a couple of individual coaches and trainers that were employed by MSU?  She wants Simon to read all these books and become an expert on child molestors, but actually the coaches, trainers and parents would have had to have read them 20 years ago if not also change human nature.  
The letter does make the good point that adults need to take accusations seriously and report, but considering she didn't report herself and Simon was never someone that we know was reoorted to, the outrage seems a bit misguided.
I guess in a sense Simon is "MSU" whether she was involved or not.  But as MSU, she is getting sued for not reporting.  Should she admit that "MSU" failed?  Perhaps she could have come across better but she is put in a position where she might have to be a little offensive unless she wants to throw her own school under the bus
Yes, the truth can be offensive.

The problem is, Dr. Simon's remarks are not really the truth.  As I said earlier, it is difficult to stop a pedophile - but lets not label it "virtually impossible," to do so is disingenuous.  

MSU could have done more, MSU should have done more.  Under Dr. Simon's watch in 2014 MSU conducted an investigation of Dr. Nassar and found he had not committed any crimes, when in fact he did commit the alleged crimes.

Dr. Simon's remarks were made to the Board of Trustees.  To tell her bosses that essentially that nothing more could have been done was not a statement she was required to make, nor should she have made.  Again, I find that statement offensive.

Leaders set a tone and a culture.  I personally feel it is time for MSU to seek new leadership.
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by MSU addict on 2017-05-03, 11:59

Herbie Green wrote:Here are the actual remarks that this letter and associated outrage are based on. Are you still outraged when you take the entire letter and context of the statement into account?

Yes. (I read the entire statement previously)
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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-05-03, 12:01

Herbie Green wrote:Here are the actual remarks that this letter and associated outrage are based on. Are you still outraged when you take the entire letter and context of the statement into account?

"As victims continue to come forward to police regarding former MSU doctor Larry Nassar, I want to provide an update on our response to this critical situation.

During the past few months, much of our focus has necessarily been on the criminal investigation and ensuring justice is served for all victims. This will continue unabated. As you know, the MSU Police Department continues to aggressively investigate all allegations, dedicating more resources to this investigation than any other while working closely with the Michigan Attorney General and federal law enforcement officials in a case that spans jurisdictions, state lines and even international borders.

Yet even as we examine--through both criminal investigations and a thorough internal review--how something so abhorrent happened here and went on for so long, we are taking action.

Already, we have completed an initial review of MSU HeathTeam policies and practices and have strengthened policies regarding informed consent and the role of chaperones. We are now engaging a comprehensive third-party quality and safety assurance review as we continue our commitment to achieving the highest patient care and safety standards across all MSU clinics, which are being consolidated administratively and financially under the MSU HealthTeam.

Second, I have been told it is virtually impossible to stop a determined sexual predator and pedophile, that they will go to incomprehensible lengths to keep what they do in the shadows. That may be true, but we at MSU must do all we can not only to ensure the safety of our patients but to protect youth who come to our campus in all capacities. As part of a broader programmatic effort that began in 2013, we recently held a workshop for all MSU youth program directors that focused on promoting the safety of minors at MSU, and we will roll out an enhanced youth protection policy and additional education within the next 30 days.

Finally, we must continue to be resolute in our commitment that sexual violence has no place in the MSU community. As many of you know, we have dedicated significant resources to that commitment over the past few years, from introducing and revising our Relationship Violence and Sexual Misconduct policy to creating a new office to oversee Title IX and investigate cases to devoting more resources and personnel to our Sexual Assault Program. And just as important, our campus community has stepped up and is contributing greatly to these efforts. The Sexual Violence Advisory Committee and student leaders such as ASMSU and COGS are playing key roles, and we are grateful for their commitment.

While I take solace in the strong collective work of our community, this is no time to rest. Our progress is simply a reason to redouble our efforts. Sexual assault still plagues our campus and society at large. When we began the process of revamping our Title IX program in 2014, with guidance from both the federal government and external experts, we planned on revisiting our efforts once the program was running for a couple of years to gauge our progress and look at how we could continue to improve. Given all the issues surrounding sexual assault we face as a society and as a campus community, I feel it is prudent to move forward with this review on an expedited schedule. That’s why I will be engaging independent experts to conduct a top-to-bottom review of our Title IX program this fall to accelerate our progress here at MSU.

In closing, I want to once again recognize the courage of each woman who has come forward in the Nassar investigation to share her story with police. On behalf of Michigan State University, I want to acknowledge the pain his actions caused and express how deeply we regret any time someone in our community is a victim.

People come to MSU for a valuable and positive experience, whether for a degree, a summer program, or medical care. Sexual assault must not be part of that experience. While we may recognize that sexual assault and child abuse are societal issues, we cannot ever dismiss them as insurmountable. I am committed to making sure we do everything in our power to work together try to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future, both in our community and the greater society."

--President Lou Anna K. Simon

http://cabs.msu.edu/news/key-issues/issue-docs/nassar-investigation/president-remarks-April2017.html

You can't talk about context without taking into account what happened (and what was said) in 2014 (regarding the internal investigation).

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Re: More bad news for MSU: 16 gymnasts suing Dr. Nasser AND MSU (updated)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-05-03, 12:20

MSU addict wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:Here are the actual remarks that this letter and associated outrage are based on. Are you still outraged when you take the entire letter and context of the statement into account?

Yes. (I read the entire statement previously)

And you are still outraged?!

Note that the letter to Simon was in response to the Washington post article that only took this one sentence from the entire letter.

http://michiganradio.org/post/alleged-nassar-victim-msu-president-our-voices-counted-nothing

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/doctor-at-center-of-usa-gymnastics-scandal-left-warning-signs-at-michigan-state/2017/04/25/eed48834-2530-11e7-a1b3-faff0034e2de_story.html?utm_term=.01f43ef05a3e




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