Warning, this thread is for soccer

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Wed 11 Oct - 11:36

Tim Wakefield wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

I just don't get the compulsion of weirdos like you that insist on telling everyone that they don't like soccer whenever the topic comes up. You know what I don't like Tim? Fantasy football. It's fucking awful. Am I popping off every time someone talks about fantasy football? No. I just ignore it. Because I don't like it.

You don't like soccer? Fucking neat wake. Don't click on the thread then just to be a douchebag.

I also hate fantasy football* Travis

*American football

Then make sure to check the fantasy football thread to tell them all about it.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Wed 11 Oct - 11:44

DWags wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Indoor soccer arenas hurt the development of "outdoor" soccer more than help it.  It's not the same game.  

What does your fundraising to pay for coaches get you?  What do you know about their qualifications?  What are they trying to accomplish with the team?

Travis is on the right track that youth coaching and development sucks.  Beyond the "Billy's Dad" factor, the kids are OVER-coached.  Youth soccer in this country is overly structured and overly organized.  Coaches drill fundamentals so much that kids never learn the technical skills.  They never learn to just play and be creative.  It's a creative sport.  Compare it to basketball?  Ever hear Magic or Jordan or LeBron credit their elementary school coach for working with them on those two handed bounce pass drills, which really upped their game?  No, basketball players by and large credit the playgrounds.  That's where they could be free to express themselves and try things.  

You don't get that with soccer.  You have soccer fields full on Saturdays with overly-structured leagues.  But do you ever see pick up games anywhere?  It's rare.  You need the fundamentals, but you need kids to be able to go out and to try new/different things in the game, without the coach benching them because they didn't listen to his rigid instructions.



I have no idea what the coaching got my kids.  It was somethjing they wanted to do, until they didn't.   It's not a sport for everyone.  You're right, we don't see a lot of "pick up" games of soccer in America.  I know why I think that is.   I also know that the only thing I can follow in that sport is what I've seen in my life.  I saw both nephews play pee wee and I also saw most of the best athletes on those teams end up joing middle school football and never looking back.   That, I guess, is not the case according to you guys, so I'll take your word for it.  Maybe it's because the coaches are rigid, or the game isn't exciting for them.  I have no idea, but the best athletes from my nephews pee wee teams, the ones who scored and defended and were fast, ended up playing football.   You guys tell me that's not so, I believe you.  So, I don't know what the answer is, but I do know we suck at that sport on a world wide basis.  I'll listen and read some of the experts reasons.  I'm interested in knowing why, a country like ours, who loves sports to a fault, who throws their kids into soccer at 3 years and younger, who fund raise and spend all kids of money, who travel with their pre-teens and teens to all kinds of fuck places to play other pre-teens and teens, and stay at packed hotels full of soccer enthusiasts just can't get the ball rolling.

Know why?   And this is the biggest thing why I think my theory is more right than any other....

Our women's teams kick fucking ass.  

Better coaching?
Better indoor facilities?
Better fund raising parents?
Better coordination of styles?
Less rigid coaches?
more pick up games?

I say it's just better athletes.  Our girls go into it cause nobody pays much attention to basketball or softball in this country.  

Maybe I'm wrong, but when our women have been kicking ass since we had the world cup here however long ago, and often are the best in the world and win gold medals, and yet our males don't.  You can tell me they have different coaches or different rigid styles or whatever, and you might be right.  But I think a huge factor is our best athletes gravitate to it.

You're onto something on the italicized part. That's not good either. Pay to play if you will.

But look, you're taking this stance that lebron james is Lebron James because he's lebron James and it was just a matter of which sport he chose- he was always going to be a star. That's not the case. To tag along to the pick up game, even more simple. Kid lebron walking to school- he's got a basketball in his hand. He's dribbling it, maybe bouncing it off of light post, whatever. He's always working on it just for fun. His whole life is basketball. A soccer player isn't dribbling a ball on their way to school (I'm just making this an example here, go with me.) they are going to practice on Tuesday. And playing a game Saturday. And that's it. They aren't constantly fucking around with a soccer ball and developing those skills.

As for the women- other countries are starting to develop their women's programs that were neglected forever. We just used the same development process for women that we did for men. They didn't do anything on the same level for women as they did for men for a long time. We'll see how long our "being awesome" lasts once other countries programs take hold. Hunch- it's not going to. But if it does then we can have that conversation in 20 years.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 11 Oct - 12:29

DWags wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Indoor soccer arenas hurt the development of "outdoor" soccer more than help it.  It's not the same game.  

What does your fundraising to pay for coaches get you?  What do you know about their qualifications?  What are they trying to accomplish with the team?

Travis is on the right track that youth coaching and development sucks.  Beyond the "Billy's Dad" factor, the kids are OVER-coached.  Youth soccer in this country is overly structured and overly organized.  Coaches drill fundamentals so much that kids never learn the technical skills.  They never learn to just play and be creative.  It's a creative sport.  Compare it to basketball?  Ever hear Magic or Jordan or LeBron credit their elementary school coach for working with them on those two handed bounce pass drills, which really upped their game?  No, basketball players by and large credit the playgrounds.  That's where they could be free to express themselves and try things.  

You don't get that with soccer.  You have soccer fields full on Saturdays with overly-structured leagues.  But do you ever see pick up games anywhere?  It's rare.  You need the fundamentals, but you need kids to be able to go out and to try new/different things in the game, without the coach benching them because they didn't listen to his rigid instructions.



I have no idea what the coaching got my kids.  It was somethjing they wanted to do, until they didn't.   It's not a sport for everyone.  You're right, we don't see a lot of "pick up" games of soccer in America.  I know why I think that is.   I also know that the only thing I can follow in that sport is what I've seen in my life.  I saw both nephews play pee wee and I also saw most of the best athletes on those teams end up joing middle school football and never looking back.   That, I guess, is not the case according to you guys, so I'll take your word for it.  Maybe it's because the coaches are rigid, or the game isn't exciting for them.  I have no idea, but the best athletes from my nephews pee wee teams, the ones who scored and defended and were fast, ended up playing football.   You guys tell me that's not so, I believe you.  So, I don't know what the answer is, but I do know we suck at that sport on a world wide basis.  I'll listen and read some of the experts reasons.  I'm interested in knowing why, a country like ours, who loves sports to a fault, who throws their kids into soccer at 3 years and younger, who fund raise and spend all kids of money, who travel with their pre-teens and teens to all kinds of fuck places to play other pre-teens and teens, and stay at packed hotels full of soccer enthusiasts just can't get the ball rolling.

Know why?   And this is the biggest thing why I think my theory is more right than any other....

Our women's teams kick fucking ass.  

Better coaching?
Better indoor facilities?
Better fund raising parents?
Better coordination of styles?
Less rigid coaches?
more pick up games?

I say it's just better athletes.  Our girls go into it cause nobody pays much attention to basketball or softball in this country.  

Maybe I'm wrong, but when our women have been kicking ass since we had the world cup here however long ago, and often are the best in the world and win gold medals, and yet our males don't.  You can tell me they have different coaches or different rigid styles or whatever, and you might be right.  But I think a huge factor is our best athletes gravitate to it.
That's a long diatribe for apparently misreading what was said. Let me try again. I'm not disagreeing at all that our best athletes gravitate to other sports. I'm saying that our US Men's National Team soccer players are as good of athletes as those that are on the national teams of every other country (on average), and far better athletes than Trinidad & Tobago's (who beat us last night), Honduras', Panama's, and Costa Rica's (all who finished above us in the standings for qualification).

So the point is that our failure in soccer at the national team level is NOT an athlete problem. Sure, if our best athletes played soccer, we'd probably have a better team. And it would be pretty crazy to see someone with the size and athleticism of LeBron on a soccer field if he developed even average technical skills (6'6" is usually about as tall as they come in soccer at a major level, and are typically gangly twigs (google "Peter Crouch" or "Marouane Fellaini", two guys with terrible technical ability, but who have carved out long careers just by being tall). But we wouldn't have a team capable of competing for a World Cup championship just because we had better athletes than everyone else.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Wed 11 Oct - 12:37

My ten year old nephews soccer game tonight is cancelled because of rain. That's not helping. Get out there and play.

I'm not even sure if I'm joking or serious right now. Half of both I guess.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 11 Oct - 12:41

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
As for the women- other countries are starting to develop their women's programs that were neglected forever. We just used the same development process for women that we did for men. They didn't do anything on the same level for women as they did for men for a long time. We'll see how long our "being awesome" lasts once other countries programs take hold. Hunch- it's not going to. But if it does then we can have that conversation in 20 years.
Forgot to come back to Dwags comment on the women's game. Just to expand on what Travis said here, some of the other best countries in the world for women's soccer are Canada, Sweden, Japan, Australia and England, none of which have a very strong men's team. You do have Germany, France, and Brazil, which have good women's teams with good men's teams. There's a definite correlation between how progressive a country is culturally with regards to women and the strength of their women's team.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Wed 11 Oct - 12:44

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
As for the women- other countries are starting to develop their women's programs that were neglected forever. We just used the same development process for women that we did for men. They didn't do anything on the same level for women as they did for men for a long time. We'll see how long our "being awesome" lasts once other countries programs take hold. Hunch- it's not going to. But if it does then we can have that conversation in 20 years.
Forgot to come back to Dwags comment on the women's game. Just to expand on what Travis said here, some of the other best countries in the world for women's soccer are Canada, Sweden, Japan, Australia and England, none of which have a very strong men's team. You do have Germany, France, and Brazil, which have good women's teams with good men's teams. There's a definite correlation between how progressive a country is culturally with regards to women and the strength of their women's team.

lol!

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 11 Oct - 12:50

DWags wrote:I'm interested in knowing why, a country like ours, who loves sports to a fault, who throws their kids into soccer at 3 years and younger, who fund raise and spend all kids of money, who travel with their pre-teens and teens to all kinds of fuck places to play other pre-teens and teens, and stay at packed hotels full of soccer enthusiasts just can't get the ball rolling.
Sorry, don't mean to keep making new posts to argue with Dwags, and Travis touched on the pay to play problem that the above entails. But I just wanted to point out that you answered your own question with the above. All of that is a large reason why we can't get the ball rolling. It's too organized, too manufactured. Did Magic, Jordan, and LeBron join travel teams at 7 years old and go stay in hotels with a bunch of other families, and have their coaches tell them the "right" and "fundamental" way to pass and shoot?

Is that how you learn creativity?
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 11 Oct - 12:56

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Forgot to come back to Dwags comment on the women's game. Just to expand on what Travis said here, some of the other best countries in the world for women's soccer are Canada, Sweden, Japan, Australia and England, none of which have a very strong men's team. You do have Germany, France, and Brazil, which have good women's teams with good men's teams. There's a definite correlation between how progressive a country is culturally with regards to women and the strength of their women's team.

lol!
Well, I mean, facts are facts, in this decade, the US has done better in major tournaments, which is what counts. The US won the WC group that included England in 2010. In WC 2014, the US advanced out of the group stages, while England didn't (different groups). And last summer, England shit the bed in the Euros while the US went to the semi-finals of Copa America (an equivalent, perhaps even tougher tournament).
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Wed 11 Oct - 12:57

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

lol!
Well, I mean, facts are facts, in this decade, the US has done better in major tournaments, which is what counts. The US won the WC group that included England in 2010. In WC 2014, the US advanced out of the group stages, while England didn't (different groups). And last summer, England shit the bed in the Euros while the US went to the semi-finals of Copa America (an equivalent, perhaps even tougher tournament).

Haha no I know. I actually was just laughing. ROLF style

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by DWags on Thu 12 Oct - 7:24


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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Watch Out Pylon! on Fri 13 Oct - 11:08

I don't know why I'm getting a bunch of soccer updates on my phone but the USA coach quit. Out of respect for the tough time team USA is having I won't call the game kickball, even though that is much more descriptive than soccer.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 7:01

And to add on guys take a look into what Iceland did a few years back and all of a sudden they did very well in Euros and have qualified for the WC they have invested heavily into their national academies and school systems, they didn't just sit on their hands. Sunil Gulati doesn't have the creativity as a leader for USA soccer and needs to get got gone, in 2006 he took over when we were on the brink of a top 10 contender and now here we are. I don't claim to have the answers but when I see what we've become in 12 years I know what I see.

Anyway, today...

Trav, hopefully you fed the pit dwellers and have had your coffee, 30 mins till kick off against that shit eater Jose Mo and scum ManU
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 8:04

Let's fuckin gooooloooo Matty

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 8:04

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Let's fuckin goooooooooo Matty

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 8:05

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO should of been 1-0
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 8:07

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 8:07

how was Lukaku not booked, some horse shit there
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 8:43

Emre................... dammmmmmmmmm should have scored there son
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 8:45


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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 8:46

Wait if my new phone is having an issue with posting gifs then I'm going to put it in the garbage. Fuck.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 8:48

That's a fuckin penalty matty

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 8:52

We've been kicking there ass so bad, yet I have a bad feeling...
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 8:53

MattyFresh wrote:We've been kicking there ass so bad, yet I have a bad feeling...

Well you've got to put Swansea away when you have the chance

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 8:59

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 9:04

Well that doesn't make me more confident that we'll find that breakthrough

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 9:06

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Well that doesn't make me more confident that we'll find that breakthrough
taking Phillip and Mo out?
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 9:09

MattyFresh wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Well that doesn't make me more confident that we'll find that breakthrough
taking Phillip and Mo out?

Yeah. I mean they're prolly tired.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 9:20

damn. You know, the thing is, with that park the bus style they play against the big clubs, sometimes you end up with draws against Swansea. It happens. On to the next one.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 9:22



De Gea is friggin world class keeper for Swansea
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Sat 14 Oct - 9:24

I don't know if they'll be able to spend the money to keep him

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MattyFresh on Sat 14 Oct - 9:28

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I don't know if they'll be able to spend the money to keep him

That and he's wanted to go to Madrid for years.

Next up for Reds, some club named Maribor in the CL on tuesday
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by DWags on Mon 16 Oct - 1:52


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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Mon 16 Oct - 7:50


Dwags im sorry but we did go over this the other day. It really isn't "a valid point" like the article describes. It's an amateurish point. It's an easy hot take. Please consider it this way- Imagine two football teams. One you have to play against in July and the other you have to play against at the Super Bowl. One just started practicing a week ago and the other is at top form. That's the difference between the level of preparation we're talking about when you look at what the men are facing vs what the women are facing. Our women have an inherent advantage that our do men not have in that they are one of a very small group of teams made up of women that are actually professional soccer players and are not there for a hobby.

I'm not defending what the men did this week. They are the friggin worst and I hate them. But pump the brakes on the super easy go to hot take. It doesn't actually make sense.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by DWags on Mon 16 Oct - 9:16

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Dwags im sorry but we did go over this the other day. It really isn't "a valid point" like the article describes. It's an amateurish point. It's an easy hot take. Please consider it this way- Imagine two football teams. One you have to play against in July and the other you have to play against at the Super Bowl. One just started practicing a week ago and the other is at top form. That's the difference between the level of preparation we're talking about when you look at what the men are facing vs what the women are facing. Our women have an inherent advantage that our do men not have in that they are one of a very small group of teams made up of women that are actually professional soccer players and are not there for a hobby.

I'm not defending what the men did this week. They are the friggin worst and I hate them. But pump the brakes on the super easy go to hot take. It doesn't actually make sense.

Sorry Travis, I'm not suggesting any answers, I'm just trying to add to this conversation. Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight. But I do know this, something has to be done. If we don't syrematically make changes, we'll always suck. If we continue to just hire coaches and think they're the answer but don't change the structure underneath, I think we'll have more of the same. And as a non follower that's fine.

But it does seem like we should do something systematically and not just cosmetically

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MiamiSpartan on Mon 16 Oct - 11:15

I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by DWags on Mon 16 Oct - 11:22

MiamiSpartan wrote:I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by NigelUno on Mon 16 Oct - 14:40


Goose won't go for that.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Mon 16 Oct - 15:00

DWags wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.

I was reading an article last week that I thought was pretty interesting about the total lack of any good American soccer players born from 1990-94 and that that's the result that you're seeing now. Back when they were in U17, U21, etc leagues they were doing poorly on a national level. Now they're expected to be running the big boy leagues but we're having to rely on old ass old guys instead. The upside is that our younger kids are performing pretty well right now (apparently) so it's possible that the answer really is that we don't actually need some massive uprooting of everything.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by MiamiSpartan on Mon 16 Oct - 15:43

DWags wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.
Not a false equivalent of what the article said. The article was saying, "Well, the women are good, so they should take over." Different level of play, different competition, countries with different social structures. But the article doesn't mention any of that, because it's an article based on tweets.

No one with half a brain (or a definite agenda) is saying that we only need a coaching change. Not sure who you're hearing that from. It was touched on a little in this thread, and a LOT in tRCMB thread, but it starts at the youth level. Coaching at that level, the overly structured leagues, the pay to play system. It all needs to change. Getting that change to happen is the hard part.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Mon 16 Oct - 15:49

MiamiSpartan wrote:
DWags wrote:

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.
Not a false equivalent of what the article said. The article was saying, "Well, the women are good, so they should take over." Different level of play, different competition, countries with different social structures. But the article doesn't mention any of that, because it's an article based on tweets.

No one with half a brain (or a definite agenda) is saying that we only need a coaching change. Not sure who you're hearing that from. It was touched on a little in this thread, and a LOT in tRCMB thread, but it starts at the youth level. Coaching at that level, the overly structured leagues, the pay to play system. It all needs to change. Getting that change to happen is the hard part.

Miami I was talking to my brother who coaches my nephews 10 year old soccer team about what you were talking about regarding just letting kids play pick up games and stuff like that and structure. He told me that he intentionally just lays off in practice and let's them try to do their own things, mostly just offering positive reinforcement when they do, or try to do, something well. Also never correcting a kid when they try to do something but fuck it up. He told me the most noticeable result has been that his team beats defenders off the dribble, even in their own half in spots that other kids are too scared to try. They fuck up sometimes, cause they're 10, but they believe in their own ability enough to actually try stuff like that. I dunno, anyway I thought it was interesting talking to him about it and for his response to be "yeah pretty much exactly what Miami said."

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