Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-11, 12:44

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
As for the women- other countries are starting to develop their women's programs that were neglected forever. We just used the same development process for women that we did for men. They didn't do anything on the same level for women as they did for men for a long time. We'll see how long our "being awesome" lasts once other countries programs take hold. Hunch- it's not going to. But if it does then we can have that conversation in 20 years.
Forgot to come back to Dwags comment on the women's game. Just to expand on what Travis said here, some of the other best countries in the world for women's soccer are Canada, Sweden, Japan, Australia and England, none of which have a very strong men's team. You do have Germany, France, and Brazil, which have good women's teams with good men's teams. There's a definite correlation between how progressive a country is culturally with regards to women and the strength of their women's team.

lol!

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-10-11, 12:50

DWags wrote:I'm interested in knowing why, a country like ours, who loves sports to a fault, who throws their kids into soccer at 3 years and younger, who fund raise and spend all kids of money, who travel with their pre-teens and teens to all kinds of fuck places to play other pre-teens and teens, and stay at packed hotels full of soccer enthusiasts just can't get the ball rolling.
Sorry, don't mean to keep making new posts to argue with Dwags, and Travis touched on the pay to play problem that the above entails. But I just wanted to point out that you answered your own question with the above. All of that is a large reason why we can't get the ball rolling. It's too organized, too manufactured. Did Magic, Jordan, and LeBron join travel teams at 7 years old and go stay in hotels with a bunch of other families, and have their coaches tell them the "right" and "fundamental" way to pass and shoot?

Is that how you learn creativity?
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-10-11, 12:56

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Forgot to come back to Dwags comment on the women's game. Just to expand on what Travis said here, some of the other best countries in the world for women's soccer are Canada, Sweden, Japan, Australia and England, none of which have a very strong men's team. You do have Germany, France, and Brazil, which have good women's teams with good men's teams. There's a definite correlation between how progressive a country is culturally with regards to women and the strength of their women's team.

lol!
Well, I mean, facts are facts, in this decade, the US has done better in major tournaments, which is what counts. The US won the WC group that included England in 2010. In WC 2014, the US advanced out of the group stages, while England didn't (different groups). And last summer, England shit the bed in the Euros while the US went to the semi-finals of Copa America (an equivalent, perhaps even tougher tournament).
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-11, 12:57

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

lol!
Well, I mean, facts are facts, in this decade, the US has done better in major tournaments, which is what counts. The US won the WC group that included England in 2010. In WC 2014, the US advanced out of the group stages, while England didn't (different groups). And last summer, England shit the bed in the Euros while the US went to the semi-finals of Copa America (an equivalent, perhaps even tougher tournament).

Haha no I know. I actually was just laughing. ROLF style

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by DWags on 2017-10-12, 07:24


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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2017-10-13, 11:08

I don't know why I'm getting a bunch of soccer updates on my phone but the USA coach quit. Out of respect for the tough time team USA is having I won't call the game kickball, even though that is much more descriptive than soccer.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 07:01

And to add on guys take a look into what Iceland did a few years back and all of a sudden they did very well in Euros and have qualified for the WC they have invested heavily into their national academies and school systems, they didn't just sit on their hands. Sunil Gulati doesn't have the creativity as a leader for USA soccer and needs to get got gone, in 2006 he took over when we were on the brink of a top 10 contender and now here we are. I don't claim to have the answers but when I see what we've become in 12 years I know what I see.

Anyway, today...

Trav, hopefully you fed the pit dwellers and have had your coffee, 30 mins till kick off against that shit eater Jose Mo and scum ManU
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 08:04

Let's fuckin gooooloooo Matty

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 08:04

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Let's fuckin goooooooooo Matty

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 08:05

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO should of been 1-0

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 08:07

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 08:07

how was Lukaku not booked, some horse shit there

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 08:43

Emre................... dammmmmmmmmm should have scored there son

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 08:45


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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 08:46

Wait if my new phone is having an issue with posting gifs then I'm going to put it in the garbage. Fuck.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 08:48

That's a fuckin penalty matty

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 08:52

We've been kicking there ass so bad, yet I have a bad feeling...

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 08:53

MattyFresh wrote:We've been kicking there ass so bad, yet I have a bad feeling...

Well you've got to put Swansea away when you have the chance

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 08:59

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 09:04

Well that doesn't make me more confident that we'll find that breakthrough

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 09:06

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Well that doesn't make me more confident that we'll find that breakthrough
taking Phillip and Mo out?

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 09:09

MattyFresh wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Well that doesn't make me more confident that we'll find that breakthrough
taking Phillip and Mo out?

Yeah. I mean they're prolly tired.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 09:20

damn. You know, the thing is, with that park the bus style they play against the big clubs, sometimes you end up with draws against Swansea. It happens. On to the next one.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 09:22



De Gea is friggin world class keeper for Swansea

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-14, 09:24

I don't know if they'll be able to spend the money to keep him

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MattyFresh on 2017-10-14, 09:28

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I don't know if they'll be able to spend the money to keep him

That and he's wanted to go to Madrid for years.

Next up for Reds, some club named Maribor in the CL on tuesday
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by DWags on 2017-10-16, 01:52


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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-16, 07:50


Dwags im sorry but we did go over this the other day. It really isn't "a valid point" like the article describes. It's an amateurish point. It's an easy hot take. Please consider it this way- Imagine two football teams. One you have to play against in July and the other you have to play against at the Super Bowl. One just started practicing a week ago and the other is at top form. That's the difference between the level of preparation we're talking about when you look at what the men are facing vs what the women are facing. Our women have an inherent advantage that our do men not have in that they are one of a very small group of teams made up of women that are actually professional soccer players and are not there for a hobby.

I'm not defending what the men did this week. They are the friggin worst and I hate them. But pump the brakes on the super easy go to hot take. It doesn't actually make sense.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by DWags on 2017-10-16, 09:16

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Dwags im sorry but we did go over this the other day. It really isn't "a valid point" like the article describes. It's an amateurish point. It's an easy hot take. Please consider it this way- Imagine two football teams. One you have to play against in July and the other you have to play against at the Super Bowl. One just started practicing a week ago and the other is at top form. That's the difference between the level of preparation we're talking about when you look at what the men are facing vs what the women are facing. Our women have an inherent advantage that our do men not have in that they are one of a very small group of teams made up of women that are actually professional soccer players and are not there for a hobby.

I'm not defending what the men did this week. They are the friggin worst and I hate them. But pump the brakes on the super easy go to hot take. It doesn't actually make sense.

Sorry Travis, I'm not suggesting any answers, I'm just trying to add to this conversation. Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight. But I do know this, something has to be done. If we don't syrematically make changes, we'll always suck. If we continue to just hire coaches and think they're the answer but don't change the structure underneath, I think we'll have more of the same. And as a non follower that's fine.

But it does seem like we should do something systematically and not just cosmetically

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-10-16, 11:15

I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by DWags on 2017-10-16, 11:22

MiamiSpartan wrote:I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by NigelUno on 2017-10-16, 14:40


Goose won't go for that.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-16, 15:00

DWags wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.

I was reading an article last week that I thought was pretty interesting about the total lack of any good American soccer players born from 1990-94 and that that's the result that you're seeing now. Back when they were in U17, U21, etc leagues they were doing poorly on a national level. Now they're expected to be running the big boy leagues but we're having to rely on old ass old guys instead. The upside is that our younger kids are performing pretty well right now (apparently) so it's possible that the answer really is that we don't actually need some massive uprooting of everything.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-10-16, 15:43

DWags wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:I love the rational. Similarly, any college who's women's basketball team is higher ranked than their men's basketball team, should have the women take over the basketball program. For that matter, North Carolina's basketball program should really take over for their football program. Clearly the basketball program is doing something right. They just won the Natty. The football team is 1-6. Let basketball run football.

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.
Not a false equivalent of what the article said. The article was saying, "Well, the women are good, so they should take over." Different level of play, different competition, countries with different social structures. But the article doesn't mention any of that, because it's an article based on tweets.

No one with half a brain (or a definite agenda) is saying that we only need a coaching change. Not sure who you're hearing that from. It was touched on a little in this thread, and a LOT in tRCMB thread, but it starts at the youth level. Coaching at that level, the overly structured leagues, the pay to play system. It all needs to change. Getting that change to happen is the hard part.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-16, 15:49

MiamiSpartan wrote:
DWags wrote:

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.
Not a false equivalent of what the article said. The article was saying, "Well, the women are good, so they should take over." Different level of play, different competition, countries with different social structures. But the article doesn't mention any of that, because it's an article based on tweets.

No one with half a brain (or a definite agenda) is saying that we only need a coaching change. Not sure who you're hearing that from. It was touched on a little in this thread, and a LOT in tRCMB thread, but it starts at the youth level. Coaching at that level, the overly structured leagues, the pay to play system. It all needs to change. Getting that change to happen is the hard part.

Miami I was talking to my brother who coaches my nephews 10 year old soccer team about what you were talking about regarding just letting kids play pick up games and stuff like that and structure. He told me that he intentionally just lays off in practice and let's them try to do their own things, mostly just offering positive reinforcement when they do, or try to do, something well. Also never correcting a kid when they try to do something but fuck it up. He told me the most noticeable result has been that his team beats defenders off the dribble, even in their own half in spots that other kids are too scared to try. They fuck up sometimes, cause they're 10, but they believe in their own ability enough to actually try stuff like that. I dunno, anyway I thought it was interesting talking to him about it and for his response to be "yeah pretty much exactly what Miami said."

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by DWags on 2017-10-16, 16:19

MiamiSpartan wrote:
DWags wrote:

I think that's a false equivalent. A national program vs sub regional programs.

Point is, something has to be done other than "just wait, we'll get better". This might be a dumb idea, but we need something more than a change of coaches. Or maybe that's all we need. Who knows.
Not a false equivalent of what the article said. The article was saying, "Well, the women are good, so they should take over." Different level of play, different competition, countries with different social structures. But the article doesn't mention any of that, because it's an article based on tweets.

No one with half a brain (or a definite agenda) is saying that we only need a coaching change. Not sure who you're hearing that from. It was touched on a little in this thread, and a LOT in tRCMB thread, but it starts at the youth level. Coaching at that level, the overly structured leagues, the pay to play system. It all needs to change. Getting that change to happen is the hard part.

So you're talking 20 good years. 15? Well shit Miami, I'm 56 next month, I do t have that kind of time.

Serious question, are our guys that far behind in skill level at the World Cup or is it Soccer IQ in your opinion.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Herbie Green on 2017-10-16, 17:44

It is the athletes.  If the US has 3,000 elite athletes but none of them play soccer and Germany has 500 elite athletes and 50 of them play soccer, then the USA will never beat Germany.
The US ends up about even with a country 1/50th of the size like Honduras which puts about all of its best athletes in soccer.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by MiamiSpartan on 2017-10-16, 19:14

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Not a false equivalent of what the article said. The article was saying, "Well, the women are good, so they should take over."  Different level of play, different competition, countries with different social structures. But the article doesn't mention any of that, because it's an article based on tweets.

No one with half a brain (or a definite agenda) is saying that we only need a coaching change. Not sure who you're hearing that from.  It was touched on a little in this thread, and a LOT in tRCMB thread, but it starts at the youth level. Coaching at that level, the overly structured leagues, the pay to play system. It all needs to change.  Getting that change to happen is the hard part.  

Miami I was talking to my brother who coaches my nephews 10 year old soccer team about what you were talking about regarding just letting kids play pick up games and stuff like that and structure. He told me that he intentionally just lays off in practice and let's them try to do their own things, mostly just offering positive reinforcement when they do, or try to do, something well. Also never correcting a kid when they try to do something but fuck it up. He told me the most noticeable result has been that his team beats defenders off the dribble, even in their own half in spots that other kids are too scared to try. They fuck up sometimes, cause they're 10, but they believe in their own ability enough to actually try stuff like that. I dunno, anyway I thought it was interesting talking to him about it and for his response to be "yeah pretty much exactly what Miami said."
That's good to hear Travis.  Some coaches do that.  But not enough.  I was at my daughter's game (middle school, not real serious, but this dad kept yelling--to not only his own kid, but to others, as well--"Stop dribbling!!!"). Anyway, I think it should be mandated that for every hour of drills, coaches need to let their teams time for free play. 11v11, 7v7, 5v5, whatever the kids want. Coach should go sit in his car during this, so the kids don't feel pressure about messing up. Your brother sounds like he's doing a good job.
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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-16, 19:29

Herbie Green wrote:It is the athletes.  If the US has 3,000 elite athletes but none of them play soccer and Germany has 500 elite athletes and 50 of them play soccer, then the USA will never beat Germany.
The US ends up about even with a country 1/50th of the size like Honduras which puts about all of its best athletes in soccer.

*makes up random numbers then tries to apply analysis to them

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-10-16, 19:33

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Miami I was talking to my brother who coaches my nephews 10 year old soccer team about what you were talking about regarding just letting kids play pick up games and stuff like that and structure. He told me that he intentionally just lays off in practice and let's them try to do their own things, mostly just offering positive reinforcement when they do, or try to do, something well. Also never correcting a kid when they try to do something but fuck it up. He told me the most noticeable result has been that his team beats defenders off the dribble, even in their own half in spots that other kids are too scared to try. They fuck up sometimes, cause they're 10, but they believe in their own ability enough to actually try stuff like that. I dunno, anyway I thought it was interesting talking to him about it and for his response to be "yeah pretty much exactly what Miami said."
That's good to hear Travis.  Some coaches do that.  But not enough.  I was at my daughter's game (middle school, not real serious, but this dad kept yelling--to not only his own kid, but to others, as well--"Stop dribbling!!!"). Anyway, I think it should be mandated that for every hour of drills, coaches need to let their teams time for free play. 11v11, 7v7, 5v5, whatever the kids want. Coach should go sit in his car during this, so the kids don't feel pressure about messing up. Your brother sounds like he's doing a good job.

Parents too. Get the fuck outta there. Man, I could tell you some stories of growing up in soccer and the crazy shit adults did.

But yeah. I'm really starting to believe that structure is a big part of our problem. Not only creativity but our problems with defense. I mean. Let's say you're a super good young defender in America. Where do you even go to learn your craft? I guess Europe like Yedlin. That's about it.

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Re: Warning, this thread is for soccer (more like Travis and Matty Liverpool chat)

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