Is transgender a disease?

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-05-17, 16:31

Re: the grandma example, my sister doesn't have and doesn't want kids and has articulated as much at many family gatherings in the past in response to such questions (probably more from aunts than grandmas). Usually she gets some response about "oh, you just don't want kids yet but you will, once your clock starts ticking you'll want a baby." Not exactly mean spirited, but definitely obnoxious and condescending.
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-17, 16:45

I get it. I do.

I just don't know if something that's more of an annoyance should be considered a social harm.

I mean don't we all deal or dealt with those sorts of things from our parents? My mom would give me shit about things I'm socially supposed to be doing or not doing as a man. My mother in law is very traditional Roman Catholic Mexican woman from Mexico. She'll tell me what my role is and tells her daughter, my wife, what she's supposed to be doing as a wife. We simply just ignore it or give it a dismissive answer. And it's kind of a running joke when we're in the car heading home. I think most people deal with things like that and most people don't take offense.

Holy shit I'm chatty today, I apologize, Cam. Should lay off the sativa.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-17, 17:01

Also, we're talking about gender pronouns, not race.

It's the SAME THING as I stated before. read my other posts. I think they are clear. I won't just argue past each other. If you want to address the points I've made previously, please do so and we can discuss. Otherwise, I know your opinion by now because you continue to state it the same way without assimilating new information. As you usually do. I love you X, really. But damn.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-17, 17:19

Rocinante wrote:
Also, we're talking about gender pronouns, not race.

It's the SAME THING as I stated before. read my other posts. I think they are clear. I won't just argue past each other. If you want to address the points I've made previously, please do so and we can discuss. Otherwise, I know your opinion by now because you continue to state it the same way without assimilating new information. As you usually do. I love you X, really. But damn.

I did respond to your points. I've gone back through. There was no new information given. It has boiled down to, people feel this way, therefore they are. The last page or so I've been discussing it with Cam.

You came in today with a strawman assessment of what you believe my position is. Somehow, I guess I'm a racist because I don't believe transgendered individuals are anything but a statistical anomaly as opposed to the true pioneers of sociological without any falsifiable evidence or facts. I don't get that.

I don't hate, or bear any malice to people over differences of race, or gender or religion. But I don't hate myself either. So if you need me to hate myself so you can feel comfortable with my perspective, you are out of luck.

I also love and appreciate you, too.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-17, 17:28

You came in today with a strawman assessment of what you believe my position is. Somehow, I guess I'm a racist because I don't believe transgendered individuals are anything but a statistical anomaly as opposed to the true pioneers of sociological without any falsifiable evidence or facts. I don't get that.

I don't hate, or bear any malice to people over differences of race, or gender or religion. But I don't hate myself either. So if you need me to hate myself so you can feel comfortable with my perspective, you are out of luck.

This is how I know you don't read what I write. I have an idea. How about you argue my side and I'll argue yours. This is a real challenge. I will write a post explaining what I think are your points as if they are mine. I will not attempt to paint you in a negative light at all. You do the same. Please keep it to 100 words or less. I will write mine right now. Then the two of us can react to the other's post. This may help us understand each other.

Stand by:

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-17, 17:45

100 words or less? Do you know who you're dealing with?

I'll try.

Gender is a social construct meaning the characteristics of masculine and feminine are enforced through social norms and are not naturally occurring. They are harmful when manifested through social ostracization by parents, teachers, peers and media. This results in negative outcomes such as depression, self harm/medication and suicide.

Am I on the right track?

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-17, 17:52

My interpretation of X's perspective:

Why should I be forced to refer to a transgendered person by their preferred gender pronoun? When I am speaking to what is obviously a man, born with two X chromosomes, and call him "sir," why should I be worried that that will offend him? It only serves to legitimize as normal the clinically proven mental disorder that is gender dysphoria. It's like if someone had dissociative identity disorder and I was expected to call him by the name of whatever personality was currently manifesting itself. It's actually harmful to the person suffering from the disorder to entertain the delusion instead of treating it. People telling me that I have to acknowledge a disorder as normal, and further, that I have to think that what is a clinically proven disorder isn't a disorder at all, is thought policing and a dangerous slippery slope toward suppression of free speech.

-I could go on, but tell me how I did.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-17, 17:55

xsanguine wrote:100 words or less? Do you know who you're dealing with?

I'll try.

Gender is a social construct meaning the characteristics of masculine and feminine are enforced through social norms and are not naturally occurring. They are harmful when manifested through social ostracization by parents, teachers, peers and media. This results in negative outcomes such as depression, self harm/medication and suicide.

Am I on the right track?

Definitely on the right track, but it goes further, as in what the definition of oppression (or ostracizing) is.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-17, 18:00

I would change any reference to internalize, "i, me" to "someone, anyone". Believe it or not, I play along out of courtesy and respect. My issue is when situations like Jordan Peterson vs Canada's Bill C-16 comes up and by not reffering to someone as whatever pronoun they've come up with, you are then running afoul with the law.

I have a huge problem with that.

So it's not just a slippery slope yet to reveal itself... it is currently happening.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-17, 18:01

So, roc. Do you believe that by not referring to someone as zhe or ghu or xhe you (or me or whomever) are oppressing them?

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-05-17, 18:06

xsanguine wrote:I get it. I do.

I just don't know if something that's more of an annoyance should be considered a social harm.

I mean don't we all deal or dealt with those sorts of things from our parents? My mom would give me shit about things I'm socially supposed to be doing or not doing as a man. My mother in law is very traditional Roman Catholic Mexican woman from Mexico. She'll tell me what my role is and tells her daughter, my wife, what she's supposed to be doing as a wife. We simply just ignore it or give it a dismissive answer. And it's kind of a running joke when we're in the car heading home. I think most people deal with things like that and most people don't take offense.

Holy shit I'm chatty today, I apologize, Cam. Should lay off the sativa.

Yeah, the grandma example is probably more of an annoyance. I think the actual harm probably more often takes the form of bullying. Kids are shitty people, and they bully people who are different for pretty much any reason, so being different by not fitting stereotypes that kids have internalized from various sources could definitely make somebody a target of bullying.

I dunno, I'm somewhat struggling to come up with good concrete examples because I didn't really go through much of that growing up.
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-17, 19:28

So wait you never really answered whether I had your argument right or not.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-17, 19:29

I just read the Canadian proposed law. It doesn't seem to say what you think it says.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-20, 13:05

Rocinante wrote:I just read the Canadian proposed law. It doesn't seem to say what you think it says.

Sorry for the radio silence, Roc. Had some things come up that took my attention.

So I kind of came to a certain realization. It's not someone wanting to be called a he or she if they're biologically the other. Like I said before, I'll play along out of courtesy. It's no skin off my back and it's not worth the argument, frankly. There's certain situations where I would refuse to do so, such as a situation Ben Shapiro had with Zoey Tur. I won't humor someone like that. But in the course of normal day-to-day, I've no problem with he/she.

It's the post modern 23 or 124 genders (depending on who you ask). I'm not interested in humoring that. If there's some scientific basis for it, then I'm willing to change my stance.

Regarding bill C-16, the policy statements surrounding similar legislation (for example in Ontario's Human Rights Commission), is purposely vague. Similar to what's happening in New York;

You can be fined for not calling people ‘ze’ or ‘hir,’ if that’s the pronoun they demand that you use

Eugene Volokh, Washington Post wrote:Examples of Violations

a. Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear which pronouns and title she uses …

Covered entities may avoid violations of the NYCHRL by creating a policy of asking everyone what their preferred gender pronoun is so that no individual is singled out for such questions and by updating their systems to allow all individuals to self-identify their names and genders. They should not limit the options for identification to male and female only.

Eugene Volokh, Washington Post wrote:So people can basically force us — on pain of massive legal liability — to say what they want us to say, whether or not we want to endorse the political message associated with that term, and whether or not we think it’s a lie.

We have to use “ze,” a made-up word that carries an obvious political connotation (endorsement of the “non-binary” view of gender). We have to call people “him” and “her” even if we believe that people’s genders are determined by their biological sex and not by their self-perceptions — perceptions that, by the way, can rapidly change, for those who are “gender-fluid” — and that using terms tied to self-perception is basically a lie. (I myself am not sure whether people who are anatomically male, for example, but perceive themselves as female should be viewed as men or women; perhaps one day I’ll be persuaded that they should be viewed as women; my objection is to being forced to express that view.) We can’t be required to even display a license plate that says “Live Free or Die” on our car, if we object to the message; that’s what the court held in Wooley v. Maynard (1978). But New York is requiring people to actually say words that convey a message of approval of the view that gender is a matter of self-perception rather than anatomy, and that, as to “ze,” were deliberately created to convey that a message.

What’s more, according to the City, “refusal to use a transgender employee’s preferred name, pronoun, or title may constitute unlawful gender-based harassment.” The label “harassment” is important here because harassment law requires employers and businesses to prevent harassment by co-workers and patrons and not just by themselves or their own employees; this is particularly well established for harassment by co-workers, but it has also been accepted for harassment by fellow patrons. So an employer or business that learns that its employees or patrons are “refus[ing] to use a transgender employee’s preferred” pronoun or title would have to threaten to fire or eject such people unless they comply with the City’s demands. (The logic would also apply to landlords having to threaten to eject tenants who refuse to use co-tenants’ preferred pronouns or titles, but that’s less certain.)

As far as your assessment of my argument. I don't even care to go as far as to prove anything to anyone. That's certainly a variable in the broader conversation, but I'm more interested in individual freedom and not being forced by the state to adopt other's cultural norms. If you're transgendered, do your thing and I'll defend your right to do your thing... but don't use the state to force people into operating to your liking.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-05-24, 02:50

Cameron wrote:
xsanguine wrote:You watch Bill Nye now vs Bill Nye in the 90s when he talks about gender. The episode in the 90s, while dumbed down for it audience of children, explains the chromosomes and DNA and how that manifests itself into genitalia and reproduction. Now his story has changed. Okay, no biggie, whatcha got Billy... and he brings out someone trying to be funny whose message only boils down to "I can be whatever I want to be based on how I'm feeling at the moment", the music stops and he proclaims "the science is settled" without having introduced anything that could be considered scientific into the conversation.

I had his new Netflix show added to my queue but hadn't watched it. I saw a clip somewhere else of his gender rap or whatever, and I took the show out of my queue. For whatever good points he had, that shit was some of the most cringeworthy "entertainment" I have ever seen, and I don't want my fond childhood memories sullied. Some of my favorite memories from elementary school involve getting to watch Bill Nye in science class whenever we had a substitute teacher.
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-24, 03:03

Cameron wrote:
Cameron wrote:


I had his new Netflix show added to my queue but hadn't watched it. I saw a clip somewhere else of his gender rap or whatever, and I took the show out of my queue. For whatever good points he had, that shit was some of the most cringeworthy "entertainment" I have ever seen, and I don't want my fond childhood memories sullied. Some of my favorite memories from elementary school involve getting to watch Bill Nye in science class whenever we had a substitute teacher.

That just about sums up my attitude/view on it. That entire podcast is pretty good.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 08:31

So Bill Nye was cool until he started talking about stuff that made you uncomfortable. And I am so hot for Rachael Bloom.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 08:32

Crazy ex girlfriend is awesome.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 08:35

I agree, people should not be "forced" to use a gender pronoun. But we should look for one that doesn't have the inherent oppressive qualities of the binary gender labels that the currently used ones do. Because it's the right thing to do. I know it seems out there, but it really isn't.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-24, 11:22

Rocinante wrote:So Bill Nye was cool until he started talking about stuff that made you uncomfortable. And I am so hot for Rachael Bloom.

The only thing making anyone uncomfortable is the prospect that this post modern movement is starting to enact laws that criminalize not using made up pronouns.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-24, 11:23

Rocinante wrote:I agree, people should not be "forced" to use a gender pronoun. But we should look for one that doesn't have the inherent oppressive qualities of the binary gender labels that the currently used ones do. Because it's the right thing to do. I know it seems out there, but it really isn't.

Sex is binary. It is what it is. Until we discover a new genital... that's how we're divided, naturally. And I think nature knows what it's doing.

In one thread we're worried about being oppressive because someone's feelings are hurt when you don't verbally use a recently made up pronoun that they prefer with no basis in biology.

In another thread an ideology that has been actually oppressing people through institutional slavery, misogyny, genital mutilation, pedophilia and bigotry for a millenia and a half is defended.

That's some wild shit.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-05-24, 14:05

Rocinante wrote:So Bill Nye was cool until he started talking about stuff that made you uncomfortable. And I am so hot for Rachael Bloom.

I still think he's kind of cool, but that gender rap was painful to sit through. I mostly just posted the video because I came across it randomly on youtube and it made me think of this thread.

Rocinante wrote:I agree, people should not be "forced" to use a gender pronoun. But we should look for one that doesn't have the inherent oppressive qualities of the binary gender labels that the currently used ones do. Because it's the right thing to do. I know it seems out there, but it really isn't.

So are you saying we should stop using "he" and "she," even for people who feel that those are perfectly suitable?

Can we use "it?" If no, why not?
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by AnomanderRake on 2017-05-24, 14:54

Cameron wrote:
Rocinante wrote:So Bill Nye was cool until he started talking about stuff that made you uncomfortable. And I am so hot for Rachael Bloom.

I still think he's kind of cool, but that gender rap was painful to sit through. I mostly just posted the video because I came across it randomly on youtube and it made me think of this thread.

Rocinante wrote:I agree, people should not be "forced" to use a gender pronoun. But we should look for one that doesn't have the inherent oppressive qualities of the binary gender labels that the currently used ones do. Because it's the right thing to do. I know it seems out there, but it really isn't.

So are you saying we should stop using "he" and "she," even for people who feel that those are perfectly suitable?

Can we use "it?" If no, why not?

A lot of languages don't even have gender specific pronouns. English already has a few gender neutral pronouns such as it, one, and they.
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 16:07

xsanguine wrote:
Rocinante wrote:I agree, people should not be "forced" to use a gender pronoun. But we should look for one that doesn't have the inherent oppressive qualities of the binary gender labels that the currently used ones do. Because it's the right thing to do. I know it seems out there, but it really isn't.

Sex is binary. It is what it is. Until we discover a new genital... that's how we're divided, naturally. And I think nature knows what it's doing.

In one thread we're worried about being oppressive because someone's feelings are hurt when you don't verbally use a recently made up pronoun that they prefer with no basis in biology.

In another thread an ideology that has been actually oppressing people through institutional slavery, misogyny, genital mutilation, pedophilia and bigotry for a millenia and a half is defended.

That's some wild shit.

We've already had this conversation about gender vs sex. I'm not going to do it again. Christians and Jews mutilate genitals. It's called circumcision.
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 16:09

AnomanderRake wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I still think he's kind of cool, but that gender rap was painful to sit through. I mostly just posted the video because I came across it randomly on youtube and it made me think of this thread.



So are you saying we should stop using "he" and "she," even for people who feel that those are perfectly suitable?

Can we use "it?" If no, why not?

A lot of languages don't even have gender specific pronouns. English already has a few gender neutral pronouns such as it, one, and they.

English is a clunky language when it come to gender. "he or she" "his or her". It's weird. I feel like we could come up with something that was just general but not "it" that would satisfy everyone.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-05-24, 16:18

AnomanderRake wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I still think he's kind of cool, but that gender rap was painful to sit through. I mostly just posted the video because I came across it randomly on youtube and it made me think of this thread.



So are you saying we should stop using "he" and "she," even for people who feel that those are perfectly suitable?

Can we use "it?" If no, why not?

A lot of languages don't even have gender specific pronouns. English already has a few gender neutral pronouns such as it, one, and they.

Counterpoint, many languages have masculine and feminine verbs, adjectives, etc.
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-24, 17:00

Rocinante wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Sex is binary. It is what it is. Until we discover a new genital... that's how we're divided, naturally. And I think nature knows what it's doing.

In one thread we're worried about being oppressive because someone's feelings are hurt when you don't verbally use a recently made up pronoun that they prefer with no basis in biology.

In another thread an ideology that has been actually oppressing people through institutional slavery, misogyny, genital mutilation, pedophilia and bigotry for a millenia and a half is defended.

That's some wild shit.

We've already had this conversation about gender vs sex. I'm not going to do it again. Christians and Jews mutilate genitals. It's called circumcision.

I understand. And that's fair.

Do you want to see a side by side on the differences between the two types of genital mutilations practiced? Actually, that would probably violate the TOS here now that I think about it. We coulda got real kinky.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 18:37

Cool, so the way you mutilate a child's genitals is an important factor. Good to know.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-05-24, 18:40

Rocinante wrote:Cool, so the way you mutilate a child's genitals is an important factor. Good to know.

Roc can you jump in the "2nd test" thread? I've set up the "I don't give a shit, Wyoming and Montana are the same thing" joke twice and it's frustrating me that you haven't responded. Thx.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-24, 18:42

Rocinante wrote:Cool, so the way you mutilate a child's genitals is an important factor. Good to know.

The intent is the most important factor.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by xsanguine on 2017-05-24, 18:43

Shit, Roc. My bad... I was trying to make a different point but brought the other thread here. I genuinely apologize. Wasn't my intent.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-05-24, 18:45

Rocinante wrote:Cool, so the way you mutilate a child's genitals is an important factor. Good to know.

All genital mutilation is fucked up and should stop. But degree matters, and arguing that circumcision is an equivalent harm to many of the things that are done to little girls in the Muslim world is an untenable position.
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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 19:46

Cutting on a child's genitals is barbaric no matter what. I'm just saying let's not throw stones WASPS.

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-05-24, 19:48

I'll check it out X

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-06-07, 16:48

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Cameron on 2017-06-09, 12:45

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Re: Is transgender a disease?

Post by Rocinante on 2017-06-09, 13:07

Don't believe the hype. Here's a Canadian's take with lots of links.

In an interview with the Toronto Star, Kiaras Gharabaghi, director of Ryerson University's School of Child and Youth Care, said the bill is full of "weasel words."

"It is a bill that completely lacks courage," Gharabaghi said. "In every section it builds in limitations that suggest this is what we are hoping for, but it's OK if it doesn't happen. Everything is 'should be,' 'may be,' 'could be,' 'ought to be,' 'where appropriate,' 'if necessary.' "

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/heres-the-new-bill-canadas-far-right-is-freaking-out-about

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