Guaranteed Basic Income

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Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-06-04, 09:50

I would have sworn we had a discussion on this previously. Multiple searches tell me I'm wrong.

The "pure" form of this is simple. Eliminate ALL forms of aid - welfare, food stamps, home heating, etc.
Give everyone a check monthly to cover basic necessities. Let people decided where to spend that
money not government.

I'll dig some other articles up if there's any interest in this subject. Savings generated from cutting
spending programs and personnel pay for much if not all of this.

The Indestructible Idea of the Basic Income - Is this the only policy proposal Tom Paine, Huey Long, Milton Friedman, Timothy Leary, and Sam Altman can agree on?
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Cameron on 2017-06-04, 10:56

I love the basic income idea.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Floyd Robertson on 2017-06-04, 11:15

538 did an article on this last year.

What Would Happen If We Just Gave People Money?

I'm not sure everyone would properly manage their basic income and then we'd have basic income plus subsidies.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-06-04, 11:16

Couple more articles on it......there are 1000's taking both sides and various versions.
What happens if you replace every social program with a universal basic income?



Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-06-04, 11:18

Floyd Robertson wrote:538 did an article on this last year.

What Would Happen If We Just Gave People Money?

I'm not sure everyone would properly manage their basic income and then we'd have basic income plus subsidies.

And the counter argument would be that many would manage the $$ for their specific needs better than the government does.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Floyd Robertson on 2017-06-04, 11:21

LooseGoose wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:538 did an article on this last year.

What Would Happen If We Just Gave People Money?

I'm not sure everyone would properly manage their basic income and then we'd have basic income plus subsidies.

And the counter argument would be that many would manage the $$ for their specific needs better than the government does.

Yep, like the 538 piece says, we won't know unless we try.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by DWags on 2017-06-04, 11:27

Floyd Robertson wrote:538 did an article on this last year.

What Would Happen If We Just Gave People Money?

I'm not sure everyone would properly manage their basic income and then we'd have basic income plus subsidies.

This. As unfortunate as it is we live in a country that has those not capable of helping themselves no matter what. So, how do we handle them? Say, look we gave you a check deal with it.

Mental illness, drug addiction, low iq, whatever, all play a roll in this. If SCOTUS says no more right to choose, do you think those numbers go up or down?

I'm not even a great Christian, but I think at least a little about being my brothers keeper. And save your examples of fraud and abuse. They exist and I wish all those bastards jail terms.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-06-04, 11:53

DWags wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:538 did an article on this last year.

What Would Happen If We Just Gave People Money?

I'm not sure everyone would properly manage their basic income and then we'd have basic income plus subsidies.

This. As unfortunate as it is we live in a country that has those not capable of helping themselves no matter what. So, how do we handle them? Say, look we gave you a check deal with it.

Mental illness, drug addiction, low iq, whatever, all play a roll in this. If SCOTUS says no more right to choose, do you think those numbers go up or down?

I'm not even a great Christian, but I think at least a little about being my brothers keeper. And save your examples of fraud and abuse. They exist and I wish all those bastards jail terms.

This isn't a debate about fraud since you eliminate all fraud with this proposal. Everyone gets a check so no one is gaming the system. It IS a debate over whether people will take care of themselves or not.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Cameron on 2017-06-04, 12:50

DWags wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:538 did an article on this last year.

What Would Happen If We Just Gave People Money?

I'm not sure everyone would properly manage their basic income and then we'd have basic income plus subsidies.

This. As unfortunate as it is we live in a country that has those not capable of helping themselves no matter what. So, how do we handle them? Say, look we gave you a check deal with it.

Mental illness, drug addiction, low iq, whatever, all play a roll in this. If SCOTUS says no more right to choose, do you think those numbers go up or down?

I'm not even a great Christian, but I think at least a little about being my brothers keeper. And save your examples of fraud and abuse. They exist and I wish all those bastards jail terms.

You're sounding Ben Carson-ish. "Poverty is a state of mind," that whole deal.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Rocinante on 2017-06-04, 12:51

This is a discussion I've had with friends for a long time. It depends on what programs are eliminated along with it. If we're talking about replacing food stamps , and housing assistance only, that's one thing. If we start saying you also have to buy your own healthcare through the capitalist market, or it's part of a voucher for public schools program, we're in a completely different place.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-06-04, 13:19

Rocinante wrote:This is a discussion I've had with friends for a long time. It depends on what programs are eliminated along with it. If we're talking about replacing food stamps , and housing assistance only, that's one thing. If we start saying you also have to buy your own healthcare through the capitalist market, or it's part of a voucher for public schools program, we're in a completely different place.

In my mind the school issue would be completely separate since the need for education wouldn't be universal or equal.

I wouldn't require the purchase of health insurance but wouldn't forbid it either. Perhaps a very basic universal coverage then you decide if you want to buy insurance that covers more?
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Rocinante on 2017-06-04, 15:55

LooseGoose wrote:
Rocinante wrote:This is a discussion I've had with friends for a long time. It depends on what programs are eliminated along with it. If we're talking about replacing food stamps , and housing assistance only, that's one thing. If we start saying you also have to buy your own healthcare through the capitalist market, or it's part of a voucher for public schools program, we're in a completely different place.

In my mind the school issue would be completely separate since the need for education wouldn't be universal or equal.

I wouldn't require the purchase of health insurance but wouldn't forbid it either. Perhaps a very basic universal coverage then you decide if you want to buy insurance that covers more?

Now you're starting to speak my language.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by DWags on 2017-06-04, 17:01

Cameron wrote:
DWags wrote:

This. As unfortunate as it is we live in a country that has those not capable of helping themselves no matter what. So, how do we handle them? Say, look we gave you a check deal with it.

Mental illness, drug addiction, low iq, whatever, all play a roll in this. If SCOTUS says no more right to choose, do you think those numbers go up or down?

I'm not even a great Christian, but I think at least a little about being my brothers keeper. And save your examples of fraud and abuse. They exist and I wish all those bastards jail terms.

You're sounding Ben Carson-ish. "Poverty is a state of mind," that whole deal.

The fuck? Addiction and mental illness are states of mind? Holy shit.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Cameron on 2017-06-04, 19:37

DWags wrote:
Cameron wrote:

You're sounding Ben Carson-ish. "Poverty is a state of mind," that whole deal.

The fuck? Addiction and mental illness are states of mind? Holy shit.

Your jimmies are so easy to rustle.

And I would say that mental illness is, by definition, a state of mind.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Rocinante on 2017-06-04, 19:46

How about eliminating social security along with this? I say absolutely.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Floyd Robertson on 2017-06-04, 20:16

Rocinante wrote:How about eliminating social security along with this?  I say absolutely.

I have no problem if you want to phase it out after I collect all my benefits and I'm ashes.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on 2017-06-04, 20:21

The owners of the 3 casinos in Detroit would love this plan.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-06-04, 20:39

Rocinante wrote:How about eliminating social security along with this? I say absolutely.

It would have the political benefit of not having to "fix" it. Obviously it would also free an enormous pot of $$ to raise the GBI

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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-06-06, 09:30

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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2017-06-06, 10:42


I'm not sure if you're for or against this Goose, but guaranteed jobs is textbook communism. Are you a communist now? If so, that makes zombie Reagan sad. :(
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Rocinante on 2017-06-06, 11:49

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

I'm not sure if you're for or against this Goose, but guaranteed jobs is textbook communism. Are you a communist now? If so, that makes zombie Reagan sad. :(

Don't question it. Just try to hold on to the places where agreement can be reached.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Floyd Robertson on 2017-06-10, 07:14

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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Rocinante on 2017-06-10, 12:27

More like "job-free" future, amirite?

#videogames247
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2017-08-14, 08:46

Rocinante wrote:More like "job-free" future, amirite?

#videogames247

This guy thinks so...

Why a Universal Basic Income Would Be a Calamity
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by msugolfguy on 2017-08-14, 09:10

LooseGoose wrote:I would have sworn we had a discussion on this previously. Multiple searches tell me I'm wrong.

The "pure" form of this is simple. Eliminate ALL forms of aid - welfare, food stamps, home heating, etc.
Give everyone a check monthly to cover basic necessities. Let people decided where to spend that
money not government.

I'll dig some other articles up if there's any interest in this subject. Savings generated from cutting
spending programs and personnel pay for much if not all of this.

The Indestructible Idea of the Basic Income - Is this the only policy proposal Tom Paine, Huey Long, Milton Friedman, Timothy Leary, and Sam Altman can agree on?

This idea I'm ok with. I would also throw in means based testing as well.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by LooseGoose on 2018-01-11, 07:59

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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2018-01-11, 09:09


I hope Skynet takes care of us like this when it takes over. Probably more like Terminator though.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by kingstonlake on 2018-01-11, 09:40

Unfortunately this is where capitalism sucks. Providers of needs will look at that basic income as disposable income Verizon and their ilk will increase fees and make people choose their services over another basic necessity. You will see price increases across the board on a lot of things.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by I.B. Fine on 2018-01-11, 11:34

kingstonlake wrote:Unfortunately this is where capitalism sucks. Providers of needs will look at that basic income as disposable income Verizon and their ilk will increase fees and make people choose their services over another basic necessity. You will see price increases across the board on a lot of things.
I think getting agreement on what is "basic" would be the first stumbling block. Are cell phones a "basic"? how about TVs?
What about no antibiotic, free range chicken vs generic chicken, non GMO corn? the list goes on.
Meanwhile, a large portion of the world would be thrilled to have clean water, a roof and a bowl of rice.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Rocinante on 2018-01-11, 12:03

I.B. Fine wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:Unfortunately this is where capitalism sucks. Providers of needs will look at that basic income as disposable income Verizon and their ilk will increase fees and make people choose their services over another basic necessity. You will see price increases across the board on a lot of things.
I think getting agreement on what is "basic" would be the first stumbling block. Are cell phones a "basic"? how about TVs?
What about no antibiotic, free range chicken vs generic chicken, non GMO corn? the list goes on.
Meanwhile, a large portion of the world would be thrilled to have clean water, a roof and a bowl of rice.

Including Flint Michigan.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Cameron on 2018-01-11, 14:45

I.B. Fine wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:Unfortunately this is where capitalism sucks. Providers of needs will look at that basic income as disposable income Verizon and their ilk will increase fees and make people choose their services over another basic necessity. You will see price increases across the board on a lot of things.
I think getting agreement on what is "basic" would be the first stumbling block. Are cell phones a "basic"? how about TVs?
What about no antibiotic, free range chicken vs generic chicken, non GMO corn? the list goes on.
Meanwhile, a large portion of the world would be thrilled to have clean water, a roof and a bowl of rice.

I think you're missing the point. The point is to give people money and trust that they know what they need better than anyone else does. Evidence suggests that most of the money will be spent on actual literal necessities, with a small percentage going to vice and extravagance. Your line of thinking seems more akin to drug testing welfare recipients, which is a total waste of resources.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by steveschneider on 2018-01-11, 14:56

Cameron wrote:
I.B. Fine wrote:
I think getting agreement on what is "basic" would be the first stumbling block. Are cell phones a "basic"? how about TVs?
What about no antibiotic, free range chicken vs generic chicken, non GMO corn? the list goes on.
Meanwhile, a large portion of the world would be thrilled to have clean water, a roof and a bowl of rice.

I think you're missing the point. The point is to give people money and trust that they know what they need better than anyone else does. Evidence suggests that most of the money will be spent on actual literal necessities, with a small percentage going to vice and extravagance. Your line of thinking seems more akin to drug testing welfare recipients, which is a total waste of resources.

Sorry, Cameron you aren't getting a guaranteed income to support your lifestyle of drinking and smoking marijuana. You are going to have to get a job like everyone else.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Cameron on 2018-01-11, 15:03

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I think you're missing the point. The point is to give people money and trust that they know what they need better than anyone else does. Evidence suggests that most of the money will be spent on actual literal necessities, with a small percentage going to vice and extravagance. Your line of thinking seems more akin to drug testing welfare recipients, which is a total waste of resources.

Sorry, Cameron you aren't getting a guaranteed income to support your lifestyle of drinking and smoking marijuana. You are going to have to get a job like everyone else.



Last edited by Cameron on 2018-01-11, 15:06; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by I.B. Fine on 2018-01-11, 15:04

Cameron wrote:
I.B. Fine wrote:
I think getting agreement on what is "basic" would be the first stumbling block. Are cell phones a "basic"? how about TVs?
What about no antibiotic, free range chicken vs generic chicken, non GMO corn? the list goes on.
Meanwhile, a large portion of the world would be thrilled to have clean water, a roof and a bowl of rice.

I think you're missing the point. The point is to give people money and trust that they know what they need better than anyone else does. Evidence suggests that most of the money will be spent on actual literal necessities, with a small percentage going to vice and extravagance. Your line of thinking seems more akin to drug testing welfare recipients, which is a total waste of resources.
I was giving examples of what people spend money on. Someone, somewhere will need to determine which of those things are "essential" to determine a number required to cover said "basic" living expenses. That will be contentious.
What about when this magic number is arrived at and implemented and inevitably people blow it in the first week, what about the children?

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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Cameron on 2018-01-11, 15:11

I.B. Fine wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I think you're missing the point. The point is to give people money and trust that they know what they need better than anyone else does. Evidence suggests that most of the money will be spent on actual literal necessities, with a small percentage going to vice and extravagance. Your line of thinking seems more akin to drug testing welfare recipients, which is a total waste of resources.
I was giving examples of what people spend money on. Someone, somewhere will need to determine which of those things are "essential" to determine a number required to cover said "basic" living expenses. That will be contentious.
What about when this magic number is arrived at and implemented and inevitably people blow it in the first week, what about the children?

We already study cost of living, I don't see why we couldn't apply knowledge we already have to determine the correct amount for the UBI. There will be some people who waste their money and neglect their needs. I don't imagine that would be a significant portion of the population. If those people have kids and can't or won't use the money to care for those kids, then they will probably end up losing their kids, and that will probably be to the benefit of the kids. If they don't have kids, then they're only fucking themselves over and no one ought to lose sleep over it.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by steveschneider on 2018-01-11, 16:29

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Sorry, Cameron you aren't getting a guaranteed income to support your lifestyle of drinking and smoking marijuana. You are going to have to get a job like everyone else.


Not surprised that someone who thinks they can just make up their own price for Draymond Green and demote the price of Karl Malone in a silly basketball game is advocating for people to get guaranteed income in the real world. That's the power of IF!!!
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Rocinante on 2018-01-11, 16:37

This might be the first thread ever that has to be moved FROM the bin TO the main board.
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by steveschneider on 2018-01-11, 16:46

Rocinante wrote:This might be the first thread ever that has to be moved FROM the bin TO the main board.

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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by Cameron on 2018-01-11, 17:32

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:


Not surprised that someone who thinks they can just make up their own price for Draymond Green and demote the price of Karl Malone in a silly basketball game is advocating for people to get guaranteed income in the real world. That's the power of IF!!!



Last edited by Cameron on 2018-01-12, 14:28; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

Post by y2kMgrad on 2018-01-11, 22:42

I'm all for it. When do I start getting my checks?
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Re: Guaranteed Basic Income

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