Anybody ever go to a concert at Castle Farms in the 70s-90s?

I was just looking at a list of shows that place hosted from the early 70s through the early 1990s. Metallica, ACDC, Ozzy, etc. It looks like it is more weddings and stuff now. Maybe we could have a Swill retreat there.

http://theconcertdatabase.com/venues/castle-farms

Chicago
Doibie brothers
Fog hat
Manfred mann
Alice cooper
Seger
Tons more

Turtleneck wrote:I was just looking at a list of shows that place hosted from the early 70s through the early 1990s. Metallica, ACDC, Ozzy, etc. It looks like it is more weddings and stuff now. Maybe we could have a Swill retreat there.

http://theconcertdatabase.com/venues/castle-farms

Going down that list...

Seger/Rockets 1980
Cheap Trick/Billy Squier 1981
Blue Oyster Cult/Aldo Nova 1982

I don't recall going to any of the others on that list but I would have sworn I saw Triumph up there and they're not on the list.

I did not.

LooseGoose wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:I was just looking at a list of shows that place hosted from the early 70s through the early 1990s. Metallica, ACDC, Ozzy, etc. It looks like it is more weddings and stuff now. Maybe we could have a Swill retreat there.

http://theconcertdatabase.com/venues/castle-farms

Going down that list...

Seger/Rockets 1980
Cheap Trick/Billy Squier 1981
Blue Oyster Cult/Aldo Nova 1982

I don't recall going to any of the others on that list but I would have sworn I saw Triumph up there and they're not on the list.

We were at the same seger concert.

LooseGoose wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:I was just looking at a list of shows that place hosted from the early 70s through the early 1990s. Metallica, ACDC, Ozzy, etc. It looks like it is more weddings and stuff now. Maybe we could have a Swill retreat there.

http://theconcertdatabase.com/venues/castle-farms

Going down that list...

Seger/Rockets 1980
Cheap Trick/Billy Squier 1981
Blue Oyster Cult/Aldo Nova 1982

I don't recall going to any of the others on that list but I would have sworn I saw Triumph up there and they're not on the list.

 

DWags wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

Going down that list...

Seger/Rockets 1980
Cheap Trick/Billy Squier 1981
Blue Oyster Cult/Aldo Nova 1982

I don't recall going to any of the others on that list but I would have sworn I saw Triumph up there and they're not on the list.

We were at the same seger concert.

I was a pretty loyal Seger fan back in that time period, would usually see him a couple times a year.  I think I've posted this before - but this picture actually appeared on MLive a couple years ago and provided me with photographic proof of something I'd been telling people for years.   In the summer of '78 I was right up front for Van Halen as they toured on their 1st album and opened for Seger in Bay City.  



Silly as it sounds now, that's my date for the day wearing my "Fog"hat and I'm right next to her.

LooseGoose wrote:

DWags wrote:

We were at the same seger concert.

I was a pretty loyal Seger fan back in that time period, would usually see him a couple times a year.  I think I've posted this before - but this picture actually appeared on MLive a couple years ago and provided me with photographic proof of something I'd been telling people for years.   In the summer of '78 I was right up front for Van Halen as they toured on their 1st album and opened for Seger in Bay City.  



Silly as it sounds now, that's my date for the day wearing my "Fog"hat and I'm right next to her.

Nice. Remember Segers encore? Came out with the shirt "Petosky stoned" We always pushed our way upfront. Cooper almost killed us.

Wouldn't you love to see crowd pictures back then to see if you and I were close to each other.

DWags wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

I was a pretty loyal Seger fan back in that time period, would usually see him a couple times a year.  I think I've posted this before - but this picture actually appeared on MLive a couple years ago and provided me with photographic proof of something I'd been telling people for years.   In the summer of '78 I was right up front for Van Halen as they toured on their 1st album and opened for Seger in Bay City.  



Silly as it sounds now, that's my date for the day wearing my "Fog"hat and I'm right next to her.

Nice. Remember Segers encore? Came out with the shirt "Petosky stoned" We always pushed our way upfront. Cooper almost killed us.

Wouldn't you love to see crowd pictures back then to see if you and I were close to each other.

I don't specifically remember that, but back in that time period I was probably pretty baked. Castle Farms was a big outing for us so it would have called for a lot of prep work...lol. We usually came up, stayed at the cabin and then drove over.

Much as I hate all the people with their phones at concerts today I'd love to have one picture with my POV for every show I've ever been at. Crowd pictures would be fun, I doubt we were up front for Seger. It's very likely we were for BOC, I had a friend that was a BOC fanatic and probably went to see them 10+ times with him. He always wanted to get close, I was more of a burn one and watch people guy.

Goose and DWags probably passed each other a joint at one of these concerts.

Turtleneck wrote:Goose and DWags probably passed each other a joint at one of these concerts.

This thread got me thinking about how many venues just in Michigan that I've been at for a concert?

McMorran Auditorium - Port Huron
Davison Speedway - Davison
Pine Knob - Clarkston
Meadow Brook - Rochester
Royal Oak Music Theater
Pontiac Silverdome
Strand Theater - Pontiac
Harpos - Detroit
I-Rock - Detroit
Cobo Arena - Detroit
Joe Louis Arena - Detroit
Olympia Stadium - Detroit
Fox Theater - Detroit
State Theater - Detroit
Majestic Theater - Detroit
St Andrews - Detroit
Masonic Temple - Detroit
MSU Auditorium
Jenison Fieldhouse
Lansing Civic Center
Wings Stadium Kalamazoo
Flint IMA
"Old" IMA downtown Flint
Capital Theater - Flint
Saginaw Civic Center
Heritage theater - Saginaw
Leelanau Sands Casino
Castle Rock
The Palace - Auburn Hills
Engels Stadium - Bay City
I could probably add a dozen more bars that have had "known" bands in for a show.

Notable Misses:
Ford Field
Comerica Park
Tiger Stadium
Freedom Hill
Spartan Stadium
Breslin Center
Crisler Arena - Ann Arbor
Van Andel Arena - Grand Rapids
State Theater - Kalamazoo
Hill Auditorium - Ann Arbor
Soaring Eagle - Mt Pleasant

Is that list complete? Could've sworn I saw Pablo Cruise there around '77-'78, maybe '79. Then again, I spent quite a bit of my late teen years in the Northern Lower blasted or stoned out of my mind. High school, too.

tGreenWay wrote:Is that list complete? Could've sworn I saw Pablo Cruise there around '77-'78, maybe '79. Then again, I spent quite a bit of my late teen years in the Northern Lower blasted or stoned out of my mind. High school, too.

Probably not complete. I know Bob mentioned playing there when he was the drummer for Skid Row.

They really liked booking Def Leppard.

LooseGoose wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Goose and DWags probably passed each other a joint at one of these concerts.

This thread got me thinking about how many venues just in Michigan that I've been at for a concert?

McMorran Auditorium - Port Huron
Davison Speedway - Davison
Pine Knob - Clarkston
Meadow Brook - Rochester
Royal Oak Music Theater
Pontiac Silverdome
Strand Theater - Pontiac
Harpos - Detroit
I-Rock - Detroit
Cobo Arena - Detroit
Joe Louis Arena - Detroit
Olympia Stadium - Detroit
Fox Theater - Detroit
State Theater - Detroit
Majestic Theater - Detroit
St Andrews - Detroit
Masonic Temple - Detroit
MSU Auditorium
Jenison Fieldhouse
Lansing Civic Center
Wings Stadium Kalamazoo
Flint IMA
"Old" IMA downtown Flint
Capital Theater - Flint
Saginaw Civic Center
Heritage theater - Saginaw
Leelanau Sands Casino
Castle Rock
The Palace - Auburn Hills
Engels Stadium - Bay City
I could probably add a dozen more bars that have had "known" bands in for a show.

Notable Misses:
Ford Field
Comerica Park
Tiger Stadium
Freedom Hill
Spartan Stadium
Breslin Center
Crisler Arena - Ann Arbor
Van Andel Arena - Grand Rapids
State Theater - Kalamazoo
Hill Auditorium - Ann Arbor
Soaring Eagle - Mt Pleasant

Six degree of separation. Everybody is no more than six people from a person Goose has shared a joint with at a concert in Michigan.

Turtleneck wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

This thread got me thinking about how many venues just in Michigan that I've been at for a concert?

McMorran Auditorium - Port Huron
Davison Speedway - Davison
Pine Knob - Clarkston
Meadow Brook - Rochester
Royal Oak Music Theater
Pontiac Silverdome
Strand Theater - Pontiac
Harpos - Detroit
I-Rock - Detroit
Cobo Arena - Detroit
Joe Louis Arena - Detroit
Olympia Stadium - Detroit
Fox Theater - Detroit
State Theater - Detroit
Majestic Theater - Detroit
St Andrews - Detroit
Masonic Temple - Detroit
MSU Auditorium
Jenison Fieldhouse
Lansing Civic Center
Wings Stadium Kalamazoo
Flint IMA
"Old" IMA downtown Flint
Capital Theater - Flint
Saginaw Civic Center
Heritage theater - Saginaw
Leelanau Sands Casino
Castle Rock
The Palace - Auburn Hills
Engels Stadium - Bay City
I could probably add a dozen more bars that have had "known" bands in for a show.

Notable Misses:
Ford Field
Comerica Park
Tiger Stadium
Freedom Hill
Spartan Stadium
Breslin Center
Crisler Arena - Ann Arbor
Van Andel Arena - Grand Rapids
State Theater - Kalamazoo
Hill Auditorium - Ann Arbor
Soaring Eagle - Mt Pleasant

Six degree of separation. Everybody is no more than six people from a person Goose has shared a joint with at a concert in Michigan.

That explains the head cold I got in '86 after the show at St. Andrews.

Turtleneck wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:Is that list complete? Could've sworn I saw Pablo Cruise there around '77-'78, maybe '79. Then again, I spent quite a bit of my late teen years in the Northern Lower blasted or stoned out of my mind. High school, too.

Probably not complete. I know Bob mentioned playing there when he was the drummer for Skid Row.

They really liked booking Def Leppard.

They were no Uriah Heap.

tGreenWay wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

Six degree of separation. Everybody is no more than six people from a person Goose has shared a joint with at a concert in Michigan.

That explains the head cold I got in '86 after the show at St. Andrews.

LOL....I could throw a few more in from OH, IN, IL, WI and FL but my brain was already hurting.

Castle Shows I remember missing:
1979 The Cars:
Missed the show because of a woman and because I let my cock do my thinking. She was staying with her family at a nearby resort and I'd been chasing that tail for nearly two full summers. She didn't have a ticket so I sold mine to friends. I thought that was the night I was going to nail her on the beach. Trouble is, her parents stayed up late at the bonfire in order to watch for shooting stars, no matter how much I explained the Perseids meteor showers were over. Never had another chance.

The Police/English Beat/Oingo Boingo:

Fucking work. I couldn't get anyone to take my shift at the radio station, so I had to drive back downstate. All my friends from home and the Petoskey area were at that show. Damn, I was bummed.

I remember a bunch of the other shows from the late 70s/early 80s, I just wasn't inclined to go. Can practically hear the radio spots on blasting in my mind on 106 KHQ. Maybe the memory isn't going as fast as I thought.

Too many to count

Snake Plissken wrote:Too many to count

Math is hard.

tGreenWay wrote:Castle Shows I remember missing:
1979 The Cars:
Missed the show because of a woman and because I let my cock do my thinking. She was staying with her family at a nearby resort and I'd been chasing that tail for nearly two full summers. She didn't have a ticket so I sold mine to friends. I thought that was the night I was going to nail her on the beach. Trouble is, her parents stayed up late at the bonfire in order to watch for shooting stars, no matter how much I explained the Perseids meteor showers were over. Never had another chance.

The Police/English Beat/Oingo Boingo:

Fucking work. I couldn't get anyone to take my shift at the radio station, so I had to drive back downstate. All my friends from home and the Petoskey area were at that show. Damn, I was bummed.

I remember a bunch of the other shows from the late 70s/early 80s, I just wasn't inclined to go. Can practically hear the radio spots on blasting in my mind on 106 KHQ. Maybe the memory isn't going as fast as I thought.

Dude, concerts in '79? You're straight up boomer. Way to try to muscle into Gen X because you're ashamed of generation. Too bad. Get in line with the other boomers.

Turtleneck wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:Castle Shows I remember missing:
1979 The Cars:
Missed the show because of a woman and because I let my cock do my thinking. She was staying with her family at a nearby resort and I'd been chasing that tail for nearly two full summers. She didn't have a ticket so I sold mine to friends. I thought that was the night I was going to nail her on the beach. Trouble is, her parents stayed up late at the bonfire in order to watch for shooting stars, no matter how much I explained the Perseids meteor showers were over. Never had another chance.

The Police/English Beat/Oingo Boingo:

Fucking work. I couldn't get anyone to take my shift at the radio station, so I had to drive back downstate. All my friends from home and the Petoskey area were at that show. Damn, I was bummed.

I remember a bunch of the other shows from the late 70s/early 80s, I just wasn't inclined to go. Can practically hear the radio spots on blasting in my mind on 106 KHQ. Maybe the memory isn't going as fast as I thought.

Dude, concerts in '79? You're straight up boomer. Way to try to muscle into Gen X because you're ashamed of generation. Too bad. Get in line with the other boomers.

Fucking TN outs Greenie.......that sneaky shit.

Turtleneck wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:Castle Shows I remember missing:
1979 The Cars:
Missed the show because of a woman and because I let my cock do my thinking. She was staying with her family at a nearby resort and I'd been chasing that tail for nearly two full summers. She didn't have a ticket so I sold mine to friends. I thought that was the night I was going to nail her on the beach. Trouble is, her parents stayed up late at the bonfire in order to watch for shooting stars, no matter how much I explained the Perseids meteor showers were over. Never had another chance.

The Police/English Beat/Oingo Boingo:

Fucking work. I couldn't get anyone to take my shift at the radio station, so I had to drive back downstate. All my friends from home and the Petoskey area were at that show. Damn, I was bummed.

I remember a bunch of the other shows from the late 70s/early 80s, I just wasn't inclined to go. Can practically hear the radio spots on blasting in my mind on 106 KHQ. Maybe the memory isn't going as fast as I thought.

Dude, concerts in '79? You're straight up boomer. Way to try to muscle into Gen X because you're ashamed of generation. Too bad. Get in line with the other boomers.

My bday overlaps the two, you pinhead. I'm a BoomXer.

LooseGoose wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

Dude, concerts in '79? You're straight up boomer. Way to try to muscle into Gen X because you're ashamed of generation. Too bad. Get in line with the other boomers.

Fucking TN outs Greenie.......that sneaky shit.

He's a sonuvabitch.

If it walks like a boomer and quacks like a boomer, it's a boomer.

Turtleneck wrote:If it walks like a boomer and quacks like a boomer, it's a boomer.

If you look like a pinhead and you post like a pinhead, you're a pinhead.

Pinhead is not a term commonly used among people born after the boomer generation. It's ok to be a boomer. Listen, you can be a cool one and will be treated with respect.

LooseGoose wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Goose and DWags probably passed each other a joint at one of these concerts.

This thread got me thinking about how many venues just in Michigan that I've been at for a concert?

McMorran Auditorium - Port Huron
Davison Speedway - Davison
Pine Knob - Clarkston
Meadow Brook - Rochester
Royal Oak Music Theater
Pontiac Silverdome
Strand Theater - Pontiac
Harpos - Detroit
I-Rock - Detroit
Cobo Arena - Detroit
Joe Louis Arena - Detroit
Olympia Stadium - Detroit
Fox Theater - Detroit
State Theater - Detroit
Majestic Theater - Detroit
St Andrews - Detroit
Masonic Temple - Detroit
MSU Auditorium
Jenison Fieldhouse
Lansing Civic Center
Wings Stadium Kalamazoo
Flint IMA
"Old" IMA downtown Flint
Capital Theater - Flint
Saginaw Civic Center
Heritage theater - Saginaw
Leelanau Sands Casino
Castle Rock
The Palace - Auburn Hills
Engels Stadium - Bay City
I could probably add a dozen more bars that have had "known" bands in for a show.

Notable Misses:
Ford Field
Comerica Park
Tiger Stadium
Freedom Hill
Spartan Stadium
Breslin Center
Crisler Arena - Ann Arbor
Van Andel Arena - Grand Rapids
State Theater - Kalamazoo
Hill Auditorium - Ann Arbor
Soaring Eagle - Mt Pleasant

Not the Ritz/Palladium in Roseville? Or do you consider that one of the bars? It seemed like lot of metal bands would play there in the 90s, maybe earlier.

BTW, Loose, do you run this website? http://theconcertdatabase.com/

It looks to be all Michigan concerts. If not, you should be their resource. Your memory is amazing. I can't remember shit. I found this site while trying to figure out the name of that place in Roseville, because I couldn't remember the name. I could not remember the name of a few other venues I've been to if not for reading your list. You clearly didn't kill enough brain cells going to all these concerts.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

This thread got me thinking about how many venues just in Michigan that I've been at for a concert?

McMorran Auditorium - Port Huron
Davison Speedway - Davison
Pine Knob - Clarkston
Meadow Brook - Rochester
Royal Oak Music Theater
Pontiac Silverdome
Strand Theater - Pontiac
Harpos - Detroit
I-Rock - Detroit
Cobo Arena - Detroit
Joe Louis Arena - Detroit
Olympia Stadium - Detroit
Fox Theater - Detroit
State Theater - Detroit
Majestic Theater - Detroit
St Andrews - Detroit
Masonic Temple - Detroit
MSU Auditorium
Jenison Fieldhouse
Lansing Civic Center
Wings Stadium Kalamazoo
Flint IMA
"Old" IMA downtown Flint
Capital Theater - Flint
Saginaw Civic Center
Heritage theater - Saginaw
Leelanau Sands Casino
Castle Rock
The Palace - Auburn Hills
Engels Stadium - Bay City
I could probably add a dozen more bars that have had "known" bands in for a show.

Notable Misses:
Ford Field
Comerica Park
Tiger Stadium
Freedom Hill
Spartan Stadium
Breslin Center
Crisler Arena - Ann Arbor
Van Andel Arena - Grand Rapids
State Theater - Kalamazoo
Hill Auditorium - Ann Arbor
Soaring Eagle - Mt Pleasant

Not the Ritz/Palladium in Roseville? Or do you consider that one of the bars? It seemed like lot of metal bands would play there in the 90s, maybe earlier.

BTW, Loose, do you run this website? http://theconcertdatabase.com/

It looks to be all Michigan concerts. If not, you should be their resource. Your memory is amazing. I can't remember shit. I found this site while trying to figure out the name of that place in Roseville, because I couldn't remember the name. I could not remember the name of a few other venues I've been to if not for reading your list. You clearly didn't kill enough brain cells going to all these concerts.

Lol, nope don't run that site. I used to have passes into the Ritz, Harpos, New York, New York, the Token lounge and a few others. Gave them to a friend that had a limo company when I left the city.

I think the only big act i saw at the Ritz was Michael Schenker. If you don't consider Strut or Seduce "big". I saw Shooting Star at the Hayloft in MtClemens too. And a few more over at Dooleys and the Dollar too. For many years of my life my main hobby was concerts, my friends knew I was pretty much always good to go.

My younger son grew up going with us, he saw Schenker and got his autograph in Pontiac when he was 10 or so. Saw Slayer at Harpos around then too, he's 28 now and carrying on the tradition.

Just went to the site you linked. Slayer @ Harpos 4/16/99. My son's 10th birthday would have been 4/11/99 so I probably took him for his birthday.

Turtleneck wrote:Pinhead is not a term commonly used among people born after the boomer generation. It's ok to be a boomer. Listen, you can be a cool one and will be treated with respect.

Whatevs, fuck knuckle.

tGreenWay wrote:Is that list complete? Could've sworn I saw Pablo Cruise there around '77-'78, maybe '79. Then again, I spent quite a bit of my late teen years in the Northern Lower blasted or stoned out of my mind. High school, too.

I love Pablo Cruise!

LooseGoose wrote:Just went to the site you linked. Slayer @ Harpos 4/16/99. My son's 10th birthday would have been 4/11/99 so I probably took him for his birthday.

I'm sure I was there. In fact, I'm sure we've crossed paths at several concerts (I remember us discussing Dio at the Flint IMA back on the Sacred Heart tour, and I'm sure there have been lots of others). I moved to Miami in the fall of 99, so that was probably one of the last I went to in Michigan, though there was probably something at Pine Knob that summer. It seems there was always a good metal concert at Pine Knob each summer.

good thread..

too bad that most of my formative (i.e. "corrupt") years were spent in North Carolina.. that's when I was more prone to go to bigger arena/stadium shows.. while in Michigan (22 years now), I think I've been to the Palace exactly once and Van Andel maybe 3-4 times (Tom Petty - Lucinda Williams opening, Sabbath, AC/DC).

mainly in Michigan, I've been hitting some of the mid-sized clubs such as The Intersection, The Pyramid Scheme, Magic Bag, The Blind Pig, then St. Andrews in Detroit, etc., along with a couple of the outdoor venues like Meijer Gardens, Meadowbrook, etc.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:good thread..

too bad that most of my formative (i.e. "corrupt") years were spent in North Carolina.. that's when I was more prone to go to bigger arena/stadium shows.. while in Michigan (22 years now), I think I've been to the Palace exactly once and Van Andel maybe 3-4 times (Tom Petty - Lucinda Williams opening, Sabbath, AC/DC).

mainly in Michigan, I've been hitting some of the mid-sized clubs such as The Intersection, The Pyramid Scheme, Magic Bag, The Blind Pig, then St. Andrews in Detroit, etc., along with a couple of the outdoor venues like Meijer Gardens, Meadowbrook, etc.

Did you enjoy John Tesh at Meijer Gardens?

tGreenWay wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:good thread..

too bad that most of my formative (i.e. "corrupt") years were spent in North Carolina.. that's when I was more prone to go to bigger arena/stadium shows.. while in Michigan (22 years now), I think I've been to the Palace exactly once and Van Andel maybe 3-4 times (Tom Petty - Lucinda Williams opening, Sabbath, AC/DC).

mainly in Michigan, I've been hitting some of the mid-sized clubs such as The Intersection, The Pyramid Scheme, Magic Bag, The Blind Pig, then St. Andrews in Detroit, etc., along with a couple of the outdoor venues like Meijer Gardens, Meadowbrook, etc.

Did you enjoy John Tesh at Meijer Gardens?

missed that one.

Saw Isbell there, though.

Saw Tom Petty at Castle Farm in '81.
Great show, from what I remember.

kingstonlake wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:Is that list complete? Could've sworn I saw Pablo Cruise there around '77-'78, maybe '79. Then again, I spent quite a bit of my late teen years in the Northern Lower blasted or stoned out of my mind. High school, too.

I love Pablo Cruise!

I saw Pablo Cruise at the Auditorium @ MSU. Was sitting around bored and someone offered free tickets.....why not?

LooseGoose wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

I love Pablo Cruise!

I saw Pablo Cruise at the Auditorium @ MSU.   Was sitting around bored and someone offered free tickets.....why not?

so what was the first thing that went through your mind when you realized that you had accepted an invitation to a prison seXXX-inspired gangbang?

MiamiSpartan wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:Just went to the site you linked.    Slayer @ Harpos 4/16/99.  My son's 10th birthday would have been 4/11/99 so I probably took him for his birthday.  

I'm sure I was there.  In fact, I'm sure we've crossed paths at several concerts (I remember us discussing Dio at the Flint IMA back on the Sacred Heart tour, and I'm sure there have been lots of others).  I moved to Miami in the fall of 99, so that was probably one of the last I went to in Michigan, though there was probably something at Pine Knob that summer.  It seems there was always a good metal concert at Pine Knob each summer.

It would be fun to know how many times people here have been at the same concert or sporting event.   Might shock some of us.    I looked at that site for the Schenker show which I knew was at a little bar in Pontiac called "7th House".   They didn't have it but Setlist did...5/29/99.   Schenker sat on the side of the stage for an hour after that show while chatting and signing for fans.   This was probably at one his lowest points personally but he was great with my son.  Talked to him and signed a shirt for him, I know he still has the shirt.

Both of my sons are in a band up here and the birthday guy also DJs weddings/etc.   And they carry on the concert tradition, all of my kids and their spouses/etc are going to see Avenged7X in a couple weeks as well as UFO in Flint & Traverse later in the fall.