LeBron vs. Jordan

StylesGShmooth wrote:Is Cowherd an analyst?

Because if he is, then Skip Bayless is as well and he has an insurmountable lead in this race.

I'd say dead heat with Bayless, Greenburg and a few other ESPN spewing heads though technically Bayless was/is a spewing head sportswriter.

I think there was more scoring in MJ's era for a variety of reasons:

1) More physical play meant fewer whistles which meant teams could get into a flow. In today's game there's constant interruption for whistles and half the league can't shoot a damn free throw.
2) Better shooting and fundamentals in general.
3) Less athletic defenders. You didn't see 6'10" freak athletes defending the perimeter back then like you do today. Harder to get your shot off in today's game.

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

Ha! Damn his baseball sabbatical.  You get my point, though (maybe).

I just don't get how anyone can make the case that the NBA rules changes haven't impacted defenses, but I guess some are doing just that. And apparently others think the quality of player has so vastly increased since Jordan played just one generation ago (or less), the rules changes haven't impacted them at all.

Jordan's baseball time was 93-95. 98-99 is the lockout year actually. The season of no training camps and out of shape players isn't exactly the best statistical rerpresantitive, BTW.

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

Ha! Damn his baseball sabbatical.  You get my point, though (maybe).

I just don't get how anyone can make the case that the NBA rules changes haven't impacted defenses, but I guess some are doing just that. And apparently others think the quality of player has so vastly increased since Jordan played just one generation ago (or less), the rules changes haven't impacted them at all.

I would say that zone defenses are a factor. They aren't used much but were effectively used by Dallas against Lebron two years ago. I would imagine they would have been tried against Jordan as well. Otherwise, as far as rules changes are concerned I don't know why scoring is down today except the defense must be a lot better. Take a look at any Lakers-Celtics series and the scores are all like 123-117.

duffy munn wrote:


Jordan had a better supporting cast ? Really ? I guess you would trade Bosh, Wade and Ray Allen for Steve Kerr, Will Purdue and Horace Grant.

In the one full year without Jordan in 1994, the Bulls went 55-27. The 2014 Miami Heat went 54-28.

Herbie Green wrote:

In the one full year without Jordan in 1994, the Bulls went 55-27.  The 2014 Miami Heat went 54-28.

...and Pippen was the runner-up for league MVP; BJ Armstrong and Ho Grant also made the All-Star team. Jordan is still comfortably in front of Lebron in this conversation, but people really need to stop discounting his supporting cast.

This is what I meant by intangibles. Jordan never would have let his team get their asses handed to them back-to-back games on their home floor.

JEK wrote:This is what I meant by intangibles. Jordan never would have let his team get their asses handed to them back-to-back games on their home floor.

This. X 1000

Well, LBJ will have a leg up on Jordan one way or another - he'll either have lost three more finals than MJ or he'll be the first to come back from 1-3.

  

Magic was a better player than lbj is or will be. The Jordan comparisons are premature, Bc right now lebron isn't even top five, maybe not even top ten

Ass Dan wrote:Magic was a better player than lbj is or will be. The Jordan comparisons are premature, Bc right now lebron isn't even top five, maybe not even top ten

Just for fun...name me your Top 10 (without Lebron).

(For the record, I'm not disagreeing with you)

If the talent is so much better these days, how come a bunch of old ass men are about to be world champs?

In my mind if this series continues on this course, then this series and the Dallas series have damaged Lebron's legacy just like the Super Bowl this year damaged Peyton Manning's legacy. He looks like he's quit to me, you can just see it in his body language.

As of now my top 5 by position assuming all have same access to whatever weight training methods and conditioning programs of whatever era this dream team is supposed to assemble.

PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF Bird
PF Duncan
C Wilt The Stilt

The only position I'm uncertain of up there is the C. I think a solid case could be made for Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem. I don't know enough about Russell but I'm confident the ones I listed would all dominate in any era.

Why I picked Larry Bird, because he's mentally tougher, more clutch and he just has the intangibles (which matter a lot) over Lebron. More athletic doesn't always mean better. The Fab 5 were arguably the most athletic team by far in the B10 for the two years they were there, and they never won the B10. Why? Indiana had the fundamentals and the intangibles, and were mentally tougher than the Fab 5.

Donjuanmc wrote:If the talent is so much better these days, how come a bunch of old ass men are about to be world champs?

They have a better team?

NigelUno wrote:

They have a better team?

If you only evaluate Wade based on how he has played in this series, after LeBron is there anybody else you would want from the Heat's starting 5 over the Spur's starting 5? I don't think so.

Turtleneck wrote:

If you only evaluate Wade based on how he has played in this series, after LeBron is there anybody else you would want from the Heat's starting 5 over the Spur's starting 5? I don't think so.

Let me make a counter argument, do you think Popovich could coach up any of the Heat starting 5?

All I know is from last years finals to this years finals the Heat have aged a lot. Battier looks like a walking corpse out there, and Wade is a shell of his former self. Haslem looks like he's ready to retire.

Turtleneck wrote:

If you only evaluate Wade based on how he has played in this series, after LeBron is there anybody else you would want from the Heat's starting 5 over the Spur's starting 5? I don't think so.

The Heat team is terrible. Bosh? Clearly overmatched. Wade? He was MVP once, right? Rashard Lewis? Puh-lease. Ray Allen? Old.

Lebron might have to get 60/game for them to win this thing. I'd like to see that.

steveschneider wrote:

Let me make a counter argument, do you think Popovich could coach up any of the Heat starting 5?

All I know is from last years finals to this years finals the Heat have aged a lot. Battier looks like a walking corpse out there, and Wade is a shell of his former self. Haslem looks like he's ready to retire.

Is Haslem hurt? Or was he hurt? He got some derisive cheers when they put him in late.

steveschneider wrote:

Let me make a counter argument, do you think Popovich could coach up any of the Heat starting 5?

All I know is from last years finals to this years finals the Heat have aged a lot. Battier looks like a walking corpse out there, and Wade is a shell of his former self. Haslem looks like he's ready to retire.

Wade is not going to get better on defense at this point, and the more aggressive he is on offense just means less energy on defense. Popovich is an awesome coach and I think he could get more out of this Heat team. Spoelstra is not much of a strategist, and I think he is more dependent on talent than using Xs and Os to his advantage.

With that said, I don't think Popovich could win this match-up if he was on the other side. I said Spurs from the start based on their defense and rebounding, but I had no idea Miami was this depleted. The East is even worse than I thought. LeBron should leave. Wade is done and Carmelo is not going to help you win a championship.

Turtleneck wrote:

Wade is not going to get better on defense at this point, and the more aggressive he is on offense just means less energy on defense. Popovich is an awesome coach and I think he could get more out of this Heat team. Spoelstra is not much of a strategist, and I think he is more dependent on talent than using Xs and Os to his advantage.

With that said, I don't think Popovich could win this match-up if he was on the other side. I said Spurs from the start based on their defense and rebounding, but I had no idea Miami was this depleted. The East is even worse than I thought. LeBron should leave. Wade is done and Carmelo is not going to help you win a championship.

The East is terrible. The Hawks (without Horford) almost beat the Pacers. The Hawks' starters: Millsap, Carroll, Antic, Teague, and Korver.

NigelUno wrote:

Just for fun...name me your Top 10 (without Lebron).

(For the record, I'm not disagreeing with you)

Jordan
Magic
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Wilt
Kobe
Larry bird
Kareem

That's eight that I'm for sure putting ahead of lebron, you could make a case for shaq and a few others, but at best lebron is ninth in my opinion

Ass Dan wrote:

Jordan
Magic
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Wilt
Kobe
Larry bird
Kareem


That's eight that I'm for sure putting ahead of lebron, you could make a case for shaq and a few others, but at best lebron is ninth in my opinion

Do it  different way. How many starting 5s before you get to LeBron? Is he around 3rd team All Ass Dan?

NigelUno wrote:

Is Haslem hurt?  Or was he hurt?  He got some derisive cheers when they put him in late.

I don't know, honestly these days I've only watched the playoffs. This year I've watched some of the first round, and the finals. Prior to that I watched last years finals.

Turtleneck wrote:

Wade is not going to get better on defense at this point, and the more aggressive he is on offense just means less energy on defense. Popovich is an awesome coach and I think he could get more out of this Heat team. Spoelstra is not much of a strategist, and I think he is more dependent on talent than using Xs and Os to his advantage.

With that said, I don't think Popovich could win this match-up if he was on the other side. I said Spurs from the start based on their defense and rebounding, but I had no idea Miami was this depleted. The East is even worse than I thought. LeBron should leave. Wade is done and Carmelo is not going to help you win a championship.

I agree with just about every thing you said there. Good post.   

Turtleneck wrote:

Do it  different way. How many starting 5s before you get to LeBron? Is he around 3rd team All Ass Dan?

I don't like that idea. Lebron is a three, so from that list, I have to pick how many three's are better than him. He's third team for me behind magic and bird, but that isn't an indicator of where he stands overall.

Fwiw, I'll take magic over anyone. Guy could have been the best ever if he got to play his career out and Michael didn't have to deal with the celtics dynasty of the 80s.

He could have been HOF at any spot on the floor but center.

Ass Dan wrote:

Fwiw, I'll take magic over anyone. Guy could have been the best ever if he got to play his career out and Michael didn't have to deal with the celtics dynasty of the 80s.

I had my doubts about you after the Seinfeld thread, but maybe you're alright after all.

The best basketball player of the post Michael Jordan era is Tim Duncan. He's the best PF ever. If I had to pick one player in this league to build a team around it would be Tim Duncan.

steveschneider wrote:The best basketball player of the post Michael Jordan era is Tim Duncan. He's the best PF ever. If I had to pick one player in this league to build a team around it would be Tim Duncan.

I said in another thread that he is not talked about enough in these discussions. When it comes to best players since Jordan, Duncan's name never comes up. Why? He is incredibly productive, incredibly consistent, and closing in on his fifth championship. I guess he just isn't flashy enough, but I love the way he plays the game.

Turtleneck wrote:

I said in another thread that he is not talked about enough in these discussions. When it comes to best players since Jordan, Duncan's name never comes up. Why? He is incredibly productive, incredibly consistent, and closing in on his fifth championship. I guess he just isn't flashy enough, but I love the way he plays the game.

I just went to basketball reference and looked at the Spurs franchise since he was drafted in 1997.

1997 Western Confernce Finals
1998 NBA Champions
1999-2002 Lost Western Conference Finals
2003- NBA Champions
2004- Lost Western Conference Finals
2005 - NBA Chapions
2006- Lost Western Confernce Finals
2007 - NBA Champions
2008- Lost Western Confernce Finals
2009 Lost First Round
2010 Lost Western Conference Finals
2011 Lost First Round
2012 Lost West Coast Finals
2013 Lost Finals (Narrowly I might ad)
2014 Most likely will win NBA Finals

That's incredible! Of fourteen years only 2 seasons going out in the first round of the playoffs. After that at the minimum they've made the western conference finals.

That's a dynasty.

Donjuanmc wrote:If the talent is so much better these days, how come a bunch of old ass men are about to be world champs?

Led by a player from the Michael Jordan era.   

Donjuanmc wrote:If the talent is so much better these days, how come a bunch of old ass men are about to be world champs?

For the record, the Spurs are the 7th oldest team in the league, the Heat are 2nd oldest.

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

Led by a player from the Michael Jordan era.   

Tim Ducan was drafted Jordan's final season, he's played over a decade while Lebron's in the league. I know he's getting up there, but i he really Jordan's era?

StylesGShmooth wrote:

Tim Ducan was drafted Jordan's final season, he's played over a decade while Lebron's in the league. I know he's getting up there, but i he really Jordan's era?

Definitely post Jordan era and I'd argue the best player since Jordan. See my post above.

steveschneider wrote:

Definitely post Jordan era and I'd argue the best player since Jordan. See my post above.

I would certainly agree that he's the best since Jordan. Lebron can still surpass him but it hasn't happened yet, may never happen.

StylesGShmooth wrote:

I would certainly agree that he's the best since Jordan. Lebron can still surpass him but it hasn't happened yet, may never happen.

Spurs went 20-62 the season before they landed Duncan. Next season went to WCF.

StylesGShmooth wrote:

Tim Ducan was drafted Jordan's final season, he's played over a decade while Lebron's in the league. I know he's getting up there, but i he really Jordan's era?

Fletch has used that one year term plenty, let him go, he's on a roll.

StylesGShmooth wrote:

Tim Ducan was drafted Jordan's final season, he's played over a decade while Lebron's in the league.  I know he's getting up there, but i he really Jordan's era?

It was sarcasm based on earlier conversations in this thread about the differences in the eras MJ and LBJ played in.

steveschneider wrote:

Spurs went 20-62 the season before they landed Duncan.  Next season went to WCF.  

Spurs kinda pulled the ultimate come up on that though.  David Robinson got hurt in the first week, which made them much worse than they really were then won that lottery at #3, essnetially adding Duncan and Robinson the next season.

Still Jordan is GOAT and Ducnan's got it since, but the Cavs went to the Finals with Lebron and were almost the worst team in the league the next year.

I think it really is bizarro here.... I agree with Fletch nearly 100% and have actually enjoyed his posting.

Are there drugs on here that secrete into our fingers or something ?

Fock.

Ps. Jordan was better. By a lot. Quit the love affair with muscles.

Bump.