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Post by Nordic on 2019-06-17, 13:15

Joe Rogan is my life coach and I just listened to episode #1214 with Lawrence Lessig where they talk about campaign finance reform, electoral college reform, 2020 election, media, social media, etc. The media stuff starts at about 1:12 mark and speaks a bit to the bias I was referring to the Ice on Fire thread, but I don't want to politicize that thread. It is from back in December, so a bit old. But I thought it was pretty solid and some of you might enjoy it.



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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2019-06-17, 14:13

When are the Michigan districts supposed to get redrawn from gerrymandering? I'd like to know if I'm getting a new Congressional rep.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2019-06-17, 14:30

Dude is right. Finance reform is needed badly. Pretty much everyone has to play the fundraising game to get elected. Fuck lobbyists.

I'm commenting as I listen by the way.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2019-06-17, 14:39

Haven’t listened yet, but fuck the Citizens United decision.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2019-06-17, 15:57

Biometric security is great and all for smart phones, but at least on mine if I fail three times (when my thumb is wet usually) it defaults to my PIN. Post podcast you found interesting 2599972566
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Post by Turtleneck on 2019-06-17, 16:17

Lessig is pretty smart. Rogan, well, uhh, yeah...
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Post by Cameron on 2019-06-17, 16:22

Turtleneck wrote:Lessig is pretty smart. Rogan, well, uhh, yeah...

Rogan occasionally says some silly stuff, but considering he's into the thousands in podcasts, most of them 2+ hours long, I'm willing to cut him some slack. I shudder to think what sort of asinine bullshit I could be quoted as having said if I'd committed thousands of hours of my thoughts to tape.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2019-06-17, 16:25

Cameron wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:Lessig is pretty smart. Rogan, well, uhh, yeah...

Rogan occasionally says some silly stuff, but considering he's into the thousands in podcasts, most of them 2+ hours long, I'm willing to cut him some slack. I shudder to think what sort of asinine bullshit I could be quoted as having said if I'd committed thousands of hours of my thoughts to tape.

I’d be pretty surprised if, given those circumstances, you became a conspiracy theorist on all sorts of different topics as well as gave a platform for nazis, but hey maybe I don’t really know you and you would who knows.
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-17, 16:30

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Rogan occasionally says some silly stuff, but considering he's into the thousands in podcasts, most of them 2+ hours long, I'm willing to cut him some slack. I shudder to think what sort of asinine bullshit I could be quoted as having said if I'd committed thousands of hours of my thoughts to tape.

I’d be pretty surprised if, given those circumstances, you became a conspiracy theorist on all sorts of different topics as well as gave a platform for nazis, but hey maybe I don’t really know you and you would who knows.

Yeah, I enjoy some of his podcasts but agree with this. I find his defense of alt right bigots pretty appalling. He considers Crowder and Gavin McCines comedians. I also tire of him, Sam Harris and Bill Maher constantly whining about political correctness and college campuses.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2019-06-17, 16:37

Joe Rogan read a book once. Now he thinks he’s a philosopher king.

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Post by Cameron on 2019-06-17, 16:43

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Rogan occasionally says some silly stuff, but considering he's into the thousands in podcasts, most of them 2+ hours long, I'm willing to cut him some slack. I shudder to think what sort of asinine bullshit I could be quoted as having said if I'd committed thousands of hours of my thoughts to tape.

I’d be pretty surprised if, given those circumstances, you became a conspiracy theorist on all sorts of different topics as well as gave a platform for nazis, but hey maybe I don’t really know you and you would who knows.

Were I the host of an immensely successful podcast, I wouldn't have Richard Spencer on my podcast. Rogan hasn't either, as far as I'm aware, but I believe David Pakman has, and I don't think he can credibly be accused of being in any way sympathetic to Spencer's views.

I find that Rogan's attitude towards Crowder and his ilk is one of my biggest points of disagreement with Rogan. I think Crowder is a disingenuous piece of shit who can barely conceal his contempt for those different from himself (and doesn't typically try very hard to do so). I also don't find him funny, which Rogan seems to.

To steve's point, Rogan also gets pretty worked up about deplatforming and demonetization. I generally come down on the side of "private company, can do what the fuck they want." I could see merits in debating whether social media and/or the internet generally should be regulated like a utility. But as it stands now, YouTube demonetizing a video has nothing at all to do with the first amendment (other than it essentially being YouTube exercising their own first amendment rights).

I see the process of "dickhead says something shitty" > "internet outrage" > "dickhead is deplatformed" to be exactly how it should work. The government is not involved, social pressure is applied to incentivize bad actors to change their ways voluntarily. Perfection. If they don't like it, they can start their own YouTube. But they won't because conservatives don't create shit.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2019-06-17, 16:47

Turtleneck wrote:Joe Rogan read a book once. Now he thinks he’s a philosopher king.



This.
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-17, 17:06

Cameron wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

I’d be pretty surprised if, given those circumstances, you became a conspiracy theorist on all sorts of different topics as well as gave a platform for nazis, but hey maybe I don’t really know you and you would who knows.

Were I the host of an immensely successful podcast, I wouldn't have Richard Spencer on my podcast. Rogan hasn't either, as far as I'm aware, but I believe David Pakman has, and I don't think he can credibly be accused of being in any way sympathetic to Spencer's views.

I find that Rogan's attitude towards Crowder and his ilk is one of my biggest points of disagreement with Rogan. I think Crowder is a disingenuous piece of shit who can barely conceal his contempt for those different from himself (and doesn't typically try very hard to do so). I also don't find him funny, which Rogan seems to.

To steve's point, Rogan also gets pretty worked up about deplatforming and demonetization. I generally come down on the side of "private company, can do what the fuck they want." I could see merits in debating whether social media and/or the internet generally should be regulated like a utility. But as it stands now, YouTube demonetizing a video has nothing at all to do with the first amendment (other than it essentially being YouTube exercising their own first amendment rights).

I see the process of "dickhead says something shitty" > "internet outrage" > "dickhead is deplatformed" to be exactly how it should work. The government is not involved, social pressure is applied to incentivize bad actors to change their ways voluntarily. Perfection. If they don't like it, they can start their own YouTube. But they won't because conservatives don't create shit.

The Pakman episode with Rogan discussing Crowder was pretty good. I thought Pakman interviewing Spencer was stupid and didn't watch it and don't give a shit to ever listen to it. Back to the Pakman episode with Joe, Pakman was really good and had some of the best pushback I've heard yet to Joe who is always sticking up for his bigot friends.


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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2019-06-17, 17:10

Never heard of him.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2019-06-17, 17:15

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Never heard of him.

Probably a good guy to have a beer with.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2019-06-17, 17:23

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:Never heard of him.

Probably a good guy to have a beer with.
good point.

I'll check with someone who doesn't know me and knows nothing about me to get their opinion.
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Post by kingstonlake on 2019-06-17, 19:56

I'm just trying to figure out if I should be mad a Joe Rogan. Post podcast you found interesting 2599972566
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-17, 20:17

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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2019-06-17, 20:21

boy, republicans really know how to pick their heroes, don't they?
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-17, 20:57

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
boy, republicans really know how to pick their heroes, don't they?

He’s building up a nice resume to be governor of Alabama.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2019-06-18, 07:56

Anybody want to talk about Lessing or are we just gonna make fun of Rogan? I'm only about halfway through by the way.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2019-06-18, 08:06

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Anybody want to talk about Lessing or are we just gonna make fun of Rogan? I'm only about halfway through by the way.

Well the poster did call rogan his life coach like an absolute shit gibbon so it seemed more important to show him how stupid he is.
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-18, 08:10

I couldn’t find the part about climate change and how the scientific findings are biased information.
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-18, 08:11

tGreenWay wrote:Haven’t listened yet, but fuck the Citizens United decision.

This. Also, I figured that out just from reading good old fashioned journalism several years ago.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2019-06-18, 08:25

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Anybody want to talk about Lessing or are we just gonna make fun of Rogan? I'm only about halfway through by the way.

Well the poster did call rogan his life coach like an absolute shit gibbon so it seemed more important to show him how stupid he is.

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Post by Nordic on 2019-06-18, 09:37

steveschneider wrote:I couldn’t find the part about climate change and how the scientific findings are biased information.

Thanks for listening Steve. There is no talk about climate change in this podcasts. Both my comment in the Ice on Fire thread and in the OP is that the media/information we consume is biased. This is a general statement, not related to any piece of information in particular. FF to ~1:12 mark of the podcast and they talk about this and how it is different from when we grew up.
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-18, 09:47

Nordic wrote:
steveschneider wrote:I couldn’t find the part about climate change and how the scientific findings are biased information.

Thanks for listening Steve. There is no talk about climate change in this podcasts. Both my comment in the Ice on Fire thread and in the OP is that the media/information we consume is biased. This is a general statement, not related to any piece of information in particular. FF to ~1:12 mark of the podcast and they talk about this and how it is different from when we grew up.

Anytime man, in spite of my issues with Joe R I still really enjoy his show. The discussions can be really good. The only time I ignore his show is when he has on an alt right troll like Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Crowder or a proud boy. I find those people to be pieces of shit and there are better voices out there to have my left ideas challenged.
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Post by Nordic on 2019-06-18, 09:56

steveschneider wrote:
Nordic wrote:

Thanks for listening Steve. There is no talk about climate change in this podcasts. Both my comment in the Ice on Fire thread and in the OP is that the media/information we consume is biased. This is a general statement, not related to any piece of information in particular. FF to ~1:12 mark of the podcast and they talk about this and how it is different from when we grew up.

Anytime man, in spite of my issues with Joe R I still really enjoy his show. The discussions can be really good. The only time I ignore his show is when he has on an alt right troll like Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Crowder or a proud boy. I find those people to be pieces of shit and there are better voices out there to have my left ideas challenged.

Sounds good and don't disagree. I've never heard of or know who Owens and Crowder are. I listened to the last Alex Jones podcast, but had no idea who he was leading up to it. Besides Jones, I haven't heard any alt right guests or complete whack jobs.  I enjoy the diversity in his podcasts from space, consciousnesses, ethics, working out, politics, marijuana, psychedelics and nutrition. I generally avoid when he has comics or actors on, though Russell Brand was decent. I find his openness to learn or understand someones opinion, even if it doesn't match his (or mine) to be refreshing. Plus he is a meathead, so I'm naturally going to connect.
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-18, 10:05

Nordic wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Anytime man, in spite of my issues with Joe R I still really enjoy his show. The discussions can be really good. The only time I ignore his show is when he has on an alt right troll like Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Crowder or a proud boy. I find those people to be pieces of shit and there are better voices out there to have my left ideas challenged.

Sounds good and don't disagree. I've never heard of or know who Owens and Crowder are. I listened to the last Alex Jones podcast, but had no idea who he was leading up to it. Besides Jones, I haven't heard any alt right guests or complete whack jobs.  I enjoy the diversity in his podcasts from space, consciousnesses, ethics, politics, marijuana, psychedelics and nutrition. I find his openness to learn or understand someones opinion, even if it doesn't match his (or mine) to be refreshing. Plus he is a meathead, so I'm naturally going to connect.

Yeah, I have very strong opinions about Alex Jones. I find him completely irredeemable for what he did to those Sandy Hook families. I was in Philly for Memorial Day weekend and this friend of a friend was telling me how hilarious they found that episode with him and Joe. I really had to bite my tongue. I just can't laugh about someone that would inflict additional pain and suffering on those parents that lost their child in that tragedy. He just got caught with child porn and it's been handed over to the feds. I'm sure he's just going to blame it on the media and the Clintons but I'm hoping this time het gets put behind bars.
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Post by Rocinante on 2019-06-18, 11:55

Yeah, I get your point Nordy, I just think it’s a cop out to say that all information you receive is biased. Some information is verifiable. And real journalism is still a thing. I think some people (and I’m not saying you) don’t realize how much verification 95% of what’s in the major newspapers goes through. They literally always have at least two and probably three sources that confirm things they print as facts. This is not bias, it’s reporting. Do reporters themselves hold biases? Undoubtedly. But the facts speak for themselves and the “fake news” mantra has infected our minds to question everything.
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Post by steveschneider on 2019-06-18, 12:19

Rocinante wrote:Yeah, I get your point Nordy, I just think it’s a cop out to say that all information you receive is biased. Some information is verifiable. And real journalism is still a thing. I think some people (and I’m not saying you) don’t realize how much verification 95% of what’s in the major newspapers goes through. They literally always have at least two and probably three sources that confirm things they print as facts. This is not bias, it’s reporting. Do reporters themselves hold biases? Undoubtedly. But the facts speak for themselves and the “fake news” mantra has infected our minds to question everything.

Well put. I remember back around 2016 I used to debate a Trump supporting friend. I put a link to a Washington post article and the guy was like Washington Post lol that’s just a liberal rag. Unbelievable how someone can just completely dismiss a well sourced article.
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Post by Cameron on 2019-06-18, 16:05

Nordic wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Anytime man, in spite of my issues with Joe R I still really enjoy his show. The discussions can be really good. The only time I ignore his show is when he has on an alt right troll like Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Crowder or a proud boy. I find those people to be pieces of shit and there are better voices out there to have my left ideas challenged.

Sounds good and don't disagree. I've never heard of or know who Owens and Crowder are. I listened to the last Alex Jones podcast, but had no idea who he was leading up to it. Besides Jones, I haven't heard any alt right guests or complete whack jobs.  I enjoy the diversity in his podcasts from space, consciousnesses, ethics, working out, politics, marijuana, psychedelics and nutrition. I generally avoid when he has comics or actors on, though Russell Brand was decent. I find his openness to learn or understand someones opinion, even if it doesn't match his (or mine) to be refreshing. Plus he is a meathead, so I'm naturally going to connect.

I don't really understand the criticism Rogan gets, both here and elsewhere. I don't think you have to listen to too much of his podcast to get the pretty clear idea that he's a generally liberal centrist who isn't a fan of political correctness. Broad strokes, that also describes me, so I guess maybe that's why I'm inclined to give him a pass when I disagree with him.

But Larry Wilmore caught shit for having Ben Shapiro on his podcast, even though he went to great pains to call out where he disagreed with Shapiro (at least based on the excerpted transcripts I saw, I didn't listen to the podcast). There seems to be a fairly vocal minority (I hope it's still the minority) who take umbrage with simply having a conversation with someone with whom they disagree. There's just no pleasing some people.
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Post by Cameron on 2019-06-18, 16:08

Honestly, the JRE guest that gets me the most worked up is fucking Eddie Bravo. Dude believes every conspiracy and treats random youtube conspiracy videos like the gospel. It's incredibly frustrating to listen to.
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Post by Nordic on 2019-06-18, 16:36

Rocinante wrote:Yeah, I get your point Nordy, I just think it’s a cop out to say that all information you receive is biased.  Some information is verifiable. And real journalism is still a thing.  I think some people (and I’m not saying you) don’t realize how much verification 95% of what’s in the major newspapers goes through.  They literally always have at least two and probably three sources that confirm things they print as facts.  This is not bias, it’s reporting.  Do reporters themselves hold biases?  Undoubtedly. But the facts speak for themselves and the “fake news” mantra has infected our minds to question everything.  

I did make a mistake when I said "every". Nothing is absolute. Data is data. Data in and of it self is not biased. Strictly reporting is not inherently biased (though what people choose to and choose not to report can be). 4 people were shot... a reporter is killed overseas... we have 405 ppm carbon in our atmosphere today... that is not biased. The way in which the data can be presented, who it is presenting it, making projections, rationalizations, etc. invokes bias.

I have no doubt the kelp farmer from Gloucester has the Earth's best interest in mind. But he is certainly going to be biased toward kelp farming. Among the scientist that study Global Warning, I would bet there are varying opinions and projections on when we will or already have crossed the Mendoza line. Each will be biased toward their data or field of research. That doesn't mean what they are saying is bullshit. And before anyone thinks I'm poo poo'ing Global Warming, that couldn't be further from my point.

My point was a general one and pertaining to WoP's "average American" comment. It wasn't even commentary on the show. The "average American" includes you and I that consume all sorts of media. Lessig did a really good job of explaining it better than I can starting at about the 1:12 mark. We've shifted from the Walter Kronkite days of "reporting". If you watch MSNBC and then flip over to FoxNews, you will think you are talking about two different countries, yet the data being presented on either is not fake.  Obviously Ice on Fire is not to the extreme of cable news networks, but bias still exists.

I take a fair bit of skepticism from everything I read and hear. Even from people I trust. I want to hear multiple and opposing viewpoints and formulate an educated opinion from there.


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Post by Nordic on 2019-06-18, 16:46

Cameron wrote:
Nordic wrote:

Sounds good and don't disagree. I've never heard of or know who Owens and Crowder are. I listened to the last Alex Jones podcast, but had no idea who he was leading up to it. Besides Jones, I haven't heard any alt right guests or complete whack jobs.  I enjoy the diversity in his podcasts from space, consciousnesses, ethics, working out, politics, marijuana, psychedelics and nutrition. I generally avoid when he has comics or actors on, though Russell Brand was decent. I find his openness to learn or understand someones opinion, even if it doesn't match his (or mine) to be refreshing. Plus he is a meathead, so I'm naturally going to connect.

I don't really understand the criticism Rogan gets, both here and elsewhere. I don't think you have to listen to too much of his podcast to get the pretty clear idea that he's a generally liberal centrist who isn't a fan of political correctness. Broad strokes, that also describes me, so I guess maybe that's why I'm inclined to give him a pass when I disagree with him.

But Larry Wilmore caught shit for having Ben Shapiro on his podcast, even though he went to great pains to call out where he disagreed with Shapiro (at least based on the excerpted transcripts I saw, I didn't listen to the podcast). There seems to be a fairly vocal minority (I hope it's still the minority) who take umbrage with simply having a conversation with someone with whom they disagree. There's just no pleasing some people.

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Post by Nordic on 2019-06-18, 16:49

If anyone has a podcast they like, post it, I will take a listen.

Officially changing the title of this thread.
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Post by Rocinante on 2019-06-18, 17:07

It sounds like you’re pointing to the deliberate parsing that the cable “news” networks do where they conveniently leave out context or facts that may lessen the impact of the editorializing they do following a news story. The editorializing is the real business of those networks, and many other sources of so called news. Which then reinforces my point about actual reporting and reporters. Those “news” channels and websites do almost (or exactly) none of their own reporting. They read work that actual reporters do and then report on that. So yes, maybe they are reporting “facts” but they are not reporting all the facts presented in the original reporting. I can’t count the number of times Goose or somebody like him posted an article from some hack website that cites a NYT or WaPo feature saying that the reporting said one thing when if you read they actual article it said no such thing. So that’s why I get so irritated by this line of discussion. The source matters. And we have established, world renowned news organizations that consistently produce unimpeachably great reporting. They are still humans, and so screw up occasionally, but they are consistently solid and honest. But there’s a million gnats cherry picking from their hard work and claiming it says something it doesn’t even say. And after a while, it wears down the bullshit detectors that most of us had at one time, we stop trusting ourselves, and we say things like “I want to hear both sides”. Real reporting presents the facts, which should encompass all the sides. So the real strategy is to question the fucking source of any claim. And if it’s a website that cites a NYT article, go read that article and make sure it actually says what they say it says. Or better yet, get a subscription to NYT and or WaPo and support real reporting instead of the parasites that live off it.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2019-06-18, 18:35



More Joe Rogan. Come at me.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2019-06-18, 19:16

What do y'all do while listening to this stuff?

I'm usually kinda busy.
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Post by Other Teams Pursuing That on 2019-06-18, 19:19

Robert J Sakimano wrote:What do y'all do while listening to this stuff?

I'm usually kinda busy.

Kinda busy like posting 34,000 times on a message board? Post podcast you found interesting 1966794946
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