Your Weekly Mass Shooting

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Gomer on 2015-12-02, 16:06

Three suspects with rifles leaving in an SUV makes me concerned that this might be a piece of something larger.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 16:10

LooseGoose wrote:What is UP since the 1993 Peak is the 24 hour news cycle and the demand for programming to draw eyeballs.

Thus the "mass shooters" got wall to wall coverage. Spawning more mass shooters. Does anyone recall how the number of streakers plunged once they stopped showing them on television? Same thing, give them coverage and the nuts will seek the notoriety.

My sister an I have had this conversation. She also advocates less coverage of these events. I disagree. I think war and violent extremism should be covered not only in detail, but in all the gory detail that is available. Body parts, dead children, all of it. One of the reasons (perhaps the main reason) there was so much activism surrounding vietnam was the deep, thorough press coverage of the ugliness of war. What we do now is talk about the things happening and then give face time to the perpetrators to express why what they did was justified in their minds. I believe strongly in a free and open press, but I think they censor too much of the ugly realities. A real understanding of the totality of events, I believe can lead to societal change via a more united vision of what is and is not acceptable behavior.

I know that's a little vague and somewhat idealistic, but I kind of trust the wisdom of the masses once they achieve a certain critical mass. Small groups, or mobs, not so much, but one of the great potentials of social media and the internet in general is a way to read real public opinion and act on it rapidly. That may be empowering the proletariat too much for the comfort of some, but one can hope.

I went a little off the subject there I guess.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-02, 16:11

Gomer wrote:Three suspects with rifles leaving in an SUV makes me concerned that this might be a piece of something larger.

Nah, ask Bob - it's the damnedable NRA. The NRA is also over in France causing those shootings. The NRA has multiple chapters in the middle east causing them all to want to shoot each other. If only we could get rid of the darned NRA the world would be full of peace and love. And he calls 2nd amendment supporters simpletons.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by pulling69 on 2015-12-02, 16:16

Reports coming in now that the group assaulted people in the conference room, outside group rented the room out for the day. They were targeted.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Gomer on 2015-12-02, 16:17

LooseGoose wrote:
Gomer wrote:Three suspects with rifles leaving in an SUV makes me concerned that this might be a piece of something larger.

Nah, ask Bob - it's the damnedable NRA.   The NRA is also over in France causing those shootings.   The NRA has multiple chapters in the middle east causing them all to want to shoot each other.   If only we could get rid of the darned NRA the world would be full of peace and love.    And he calls 2nd amendment supporters simpletons.

"Something larger" does not necessarily preclude the NRA. Oklahoma City, Centennial Park, the Wisconsin temple shootings, and recent event in Charleston come to mind.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 16:22

pulling69 wrote:Reports coming in now that the group assaulted people in the conference room, outside group rented the room out for the day. They were targeted.

The conference room was rented by the county for an awards ceremony / holiday party. Not clear yet if that was the only area hit.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Dr. Strangelove on 2015-12-02, 16:22

Tim Wakefield wrote:Fuckin stop with the politics in these threads, holy shit. Takes a special kind of scumbag to see a mass shooting and instantly push a political agenda.



Obama: Mass shootings are 'something we should politicize'

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 16:24

streaming live news. Abandoned escape vehicle found.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 16:24

This reads like an assassination.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by pulling69 on 2015-12-02, 16:27

Now shooting at the discount mall nearby
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 16:31

pulling69 wrote:Now shooting at the discount mall nearby

Pasadena. sounds like it's related. Possibly the shooters cornered.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by StylesGShmooth on 2015-12-02, 16:31

LooseGoose wrote:
StylesGShmooth wrote:What the hell does 1970 have to do with anything?
 

If you read what I posted you'd see that's when the crime rates took off - the 1960s and 1970s.   But it fits the narrative better to use the crack theory.
I'm just trying to fine the correlation between a high crime rate in the 60s and 70s with a high gun violence rate during the crack epidemic in the 90s.  They literally have nothing to do with each other.  Why not just point about the high rate during prohibition, it's just as relevant.  I don't know, am I suppose to deduct that because there were other times that had high crime rates that the high gun violence rate during the crack epidemic didn't happen.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 16:32

Rocinante wrote:
pulling69 wrote:Now shooting at the discount mall nearby

Pasadena.  sounds like it's related.  Possibly the shooters cornered.

Now hearing it's NOT related.  So basically we have no information yet.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by steveschneider on 2015-12-02, 16:42

Tim Wakefield wrote:Fuckin stop with the politics in these threads, holy shit. Takes a special kind of scumbag to see a mass shooting and instantly push a political agenda.

Please give me a date and time where it's okay to give a political opinion on the American gun culture. There's a shooting everyday, at some point the discussion is going to happen quite possibly while a tragedy is occurring.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Tim Wakefield on 2015-12-02, 16:43

steveschneider wrote:
Tim Wakefield wrote:Fuckin stop with the politics in these threads, holy shit. Takes a special kind of scumbag to see a mass shooting and instantly push a political agenda.

Please give me a date and time where it's okay to give a political opinion on the American gun culture. There's a shooting everyday, at some point the discussion is going to happen quite possibly while a tragedy is occurring.

What's your grand idea to stop the shootings then? 'Refusing to accept this as normal'? Nice, specific answer.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 16:48

I've stopped listening to the live feed. Just a bunch of blather and the police are telling nobody nothing... probably because the suspects are still at large.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by steveschneider on 2015-12-02, 16:59

Tim Wakefield wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Please give me a date and time where it's okay to give a political opinion on the American gun culture. There's a shooting everyday, at some point the discussion is going to happen quite possibly while a tragedy is occurring.

What's your grand idea to stop the shootings then? 'Refusing to accept this as normal'? Nice, specific answer.

My solution doesn't involve arming every citizen and selling more guns. That course of direction has been proven to lead to more death and tragedy.


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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 17:01

Could we wait until we know more about what exactly happened here to decide whether it's appropriate to warp it to our respective ideological needs?

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by pulling69 on 2015-12-02, 17:05

14 dead 14 wounded
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-02, 17:05

steveschneider wrote:
Tim Wakefield wrote:Fuckin stop with the politics in these threads, holy shit. Takes a special kind of scumbag to see a mass shooting and instantly push a political agenda.

Please give me a date and time where it's okay to give a political opinion on the American gun culture. There's a shooting everyday, at some point the discussion is going to happen quite possibly while a tragedy is occurring.

Talk about it anytime but ask that anyone that discusses it at least try to stay near the facts. The amount of absolutely wrong information that is bandied around is what drives me nuts. "Assault rifles" are not deadlier than hunting rifles - in fact most are less deadly. Banning rifles does almost nothing to stop gun homicides since they're used in less than 400 per year. There are already background checks in place to buy a gun. There is no such thing as a "gun show" loophole, it's a myth. Etc, etc, etc.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-02, 17:07

steveschneider wrote:My solution doesn't involve arming every citizen and selling more guns. That course of direction has been proven to lead to more death and tragedy.

Except this is incorrect. Over the last 20 years the number of guns has doubled, the number of murders using guns has been halved.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-02, 17:16

Hmm....NRA members or Syrian Refugees? If this is true it'll quickly become a local crime story.

Reports: 12 dead in San Bernardino shooting

Riverside police dispatchers have broadcast a general advisory that the suspects involved in the shootings in San Bernardino may have fled in a black GMC Yukon, heading northbound on Waterman Avenue, roughly 40 minutes ago.

The broadcast indicated there were unconfirmed reports the suspects were male and of Middle Eastern origin, “armed with AK-47s and wearing body armor.”

The broadcast was part of a region-wide alert issued by the San Bernardino Police Department.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 17:24

"There is no such thing as a "gun show" loophole, it's a myth."

Okay that's 100% wrong.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Floyd Robertson on 2015-12-02, 17:27

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Can't wait for our petulant President to lecture America on guns again - that never gets old. I only hope that Hillary picks up that torch and makes gun control a leading issue of her campaign - that's always a winner for Democrats.


I wish it was acceptable for the president to riase his voice instead of speak in hushed tones, come on TV and drop some F bombs. Tell people stop being fuckung idiot murderer's. It wouldn't do any good, but I'd like to see it.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by DWags on 2015-12-02, 17:27

LooseGoose wrote:
StylesGShmooth wrote:Gun Violence dropped tremendously from its peak in the early 90s to 2000 due to the end of the crack epidemic.  Stayed more or less static as it had before the spike in the late 80s early 90s We're back on the rise, but yes we are much lower than the peak.  Lies, damn lies and statistics.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jun/16/facebook-posts/viral-meme-says-gun-homicides-are-down-49-percent-/

Was the crack epidemic going in 1970?

America's Faulty Perception of Crime Rates

Today, the national crime rate is about half of what it was at its height in 1991. Violent crime has fallen by 51 percent since 1991, and property crime by 43 percent. In 2013 the violent crime rate was the lowest since 1970. And this holds true for unreported crimes as well. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1993 the rate of violent crime has declined from 79.8 to 23.2 victimizations per 1,000 people. Americans who lived through the 1960s and 1970s remember the fear associated with a real surge in violent crime. In fact, the violent crime rate increased by 126 percent between 1960 and 1970, and by 64 percent between 1970 and 1980.

Roe V. Wade. Fox news just can't convince me otherwise. We can add concealed carry laws and the drop in crack use, but it's fairly compelling still.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Tim Wakefield on 2015-12-02, 17:32

steveschneider wrote:
Tim Wakefield wrote:

What's your grand idea to stop the shootings then? 'Refusing to accept this as normal'? Nice, specific answer.

My solution doesn't involve arming every citizen and selling more guns. That course of direction has been proven to lead to more death and tragedy.


Who said anything about arming every citizen and selling more guns? Cause I didn't.

If you want to have a gun, you should be able to get one if you go through a thorough background check. Apparently that's a radical idea nowadays.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Dr. Strangelove on 2015-12-02, 17:43

Rocinante wrote:"There is no such thing as a "gun show" loophole, it's a myth."

Okay that's 100% wrong.

Every been to a gun show? The overwhelming majority of people selling guns there are federally licensed firearms dealers and by law they have to run the "instant" background check on buyers.

Background checks are not required on personal sales.

Under the Gun Control Act of 1968, federal law clearly defined private sellers as anyone who sold no more than four firearms per year. But the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act lifted that restriction and loosely defined private sellers as people who do not rely on gun sales as the principal way of obtaining their livelihood.

Some states have opted to go further than federal law by requiring background checks at gun shows for any gun transaction, federal license or not. Five states, most recently Colorado and Connecticut, mandate universal background checks, an even more stringent standard that imposes background checks on almost all gun purchases, including over the Internet.

Even in states that do not require background checks of private vendors, the venue hosting the event may require it as a matter of policy. In other cases, private vendors may opt to have a third-party licensed dealer run a background check even though it may not be required by law.

NOTE: The following states regulate purchases by prohibiting private dealers from selling to individuals who do not have licenses/permits that they obtain after background checks are conducted: Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, New Jersey, North Carolina.

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 17:46

Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Rocinante wrote:"There is no such thing as a "gun show" loophole, it's a myth."

Okay that's 100% wrong.

Every been to a gun show? The overwhelming majority of people selling guns there are federally licensed firearms dealers and by law they have to run the "instant" background check on buyers.

So some aren't. Exactly why I said Loose's statement was 100% wrong. Thanks for playing.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Dr. Strangelove on 2015-12-02, 17:51

Rocinante wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:

Every been to a gun show? The overwhelming majority of people selling guns there are federally licensed firearms dealers and by law they have to run the "instant" background check on buyers.

So some aren't. Exactly why I said Loose's statement was 100% wrong. Thanks for playing.

More like 80% right.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/10/16/clintons-claim-that-40-percent-of-guns-are-sold-at-gun-shows-and-over-the-internet/

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 17:52

But again, we have no idea still what's going on with the San Bernardino incident, so I'd rather not argue guns yet.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 17:53

Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

So some aren't. Exactly why I said Loose's statement was 100% wrong. Thanks for playing.

More like 80% right.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/10/16/clintons-claim-that-40-percent-of-guns-are-sold-at-gun-shows-and-over-the-internet/

The exception proves the rule. Private party undocumented sales are a thing no matter how much you may try to minimize it.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-02, 17:54

Rocinante wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:

Every been to a gun show? The overwhelming majority of people selling guns there are federally licensed firearms dealers and by law they have to run the "instant" background check on buyers.

So some aren't. Exactly why I said Loose's statement was 100% wrong. Thanks for playing.

No, my statement wasn't wrong.

I can sell you a long gun without a background check 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. How in the hell is that a "gun show" loophole?

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Dr. Strangelove on 2015-12-02, 17:57

Rocinante wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:

More like 80% right.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/10/16/clintons-claim-that-40-percent-of-guns-are-sold-at-gun-shows-and-over-the-internet/

The exception proves the rule. Private party undocumented sales are a thing no matter how much you may try to minimize it.

They'll never get rid of that exception because of inheritances and intrafamily sales. Now they may follow the lead of Colorado and a number of states requiring background checks at gun shows but private party sales will never be fully outlawed.

Even Obama's last bill had that exception written into it.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 18:00

LooseGoose wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

So some aren't. Exactly why I said Loose's statement was 100% wrong. Thanks for playing.

No, my statement wasn't wrong.

I can sell you a long gun without a background check 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. How in the hell is that a "gun show" loophole?

Semantics aside, it's about private party sales. We all know this. There are ways to remedy it with the political will.

Again, we have debated this before and are at a stand still. We can throw competing links at each other until we're blue in the face, it won't change anything.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-02, 18:06

Rocinante wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

No, my statement wasn't wrong.

I can sell you a long gun without a background check 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. How in the hell is that a "gun show" loophole?

Semantics aside, it's about private party sales. We all know this. There are ways to remedy it with the political will.

Again, we have debated this before and are at a stand still. We can throw competing links at each other until we're blue in the face, it won't change anything.

Nope, it will never happen. Political will in this case does not and will never exist. You already need backchecks to sell a hand gun but it won't happen with long guns. And again do you really think the people doing these mass killings are buying their guns from Uncle Frank? So in essence it's a measure to make you feel good that you've "done something" when the reality is you've done nothing.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Gomer on 2015-12-02, 18:13

We need more guns because there are too many guns.

Congratulations, NRA, you won.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Blanch32 on 2015-12-02, 18:16

LooseGoose wrote:
steveschneider wrote:My solution doesn't involve arming every citizen and selling more guns. That course of direction has been proven to lead to more death and tragedy.

Except this is incorrect. Over the last 20 years the number of guns has doubled, the number of murders using guns has been halved.

Bob will conveniently ignore this and say "rape culture war on women" instead
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-02, 18:17

LooseGoose wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Semantics aside, it's about private party sales.  We all know this.  There are ways to remedy it with the political will.  

Again, we have debated this before and are at a stand still.  We can throw competing links at each other until we're blue in the face, it won't change anything.

Nope, it will never happen.   Political will in this case does not and will never exist.   You already need backchecks to sell a hand gun but it won't happen with long guns.   And again do you really think the people doing these mass killings are buying their guns from Uncle Frank?   So in essence it's a measure to make you feel good that you've "done something" when the reality is you've done nothing.

Your "all in the family" characterization is disingenuous as I'm sure you're well aware.  I don't argue hyperbole so I'll bow out for now.  And you're also wrong that selling handguns between private parties has any sort of regulation related to it in all situations.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by tGreenWay on 2015-12-02, 18:36

Police standoff. One shooter dead.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-02, 18:58

Rocinante wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Nope, it will never happen.   Political will in this case does not and will never exist.   You already need backchecks to sell a hand gun but it won't happen with long guns.   And again do you really think the people doing these mass killings are buying their guns from Uncle Frank?   So in essence it's a measure to make you feel good that you've "done something" when the reality is you've done nothing.

Your "all in the family" characterization is disingenuous as I'm sure you're well aware.  I don't argue hyperbole so I'll bow out for now.  And you're also wrong that selling handguns between private parties has any sort of regulation related to it in all situations.

Except your "all in the family" dodge ignores post #82 replying to you: "No, my statement wasn't wrong. I can sell you a long gun without a background check 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. How in the hell is that a "gun show" loophole?"

No family involved.

Tell me how to sell a handgun legally with no checks? I'm all ears.

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