Your Weekly Mass Shooting

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2015-12-07, 14:59

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

That's a stupid quote even for you, it's one reason why there is little hope of any compromise in this country.  Hateful rhetoric like this poisons the well.  You carry on with your fantasy of righteousness.

I would argue that the reason there isn't any hope for compromise on this issue is because you tell people how wrong they are before they even finish their sentence unless they agree with you... But that's just me.
your opinion is valuable to those of us who want hear it.

those of us who don't.. well.. perteckt!!
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2015-12-07, 15:09

Oh good then. In that case, heres a thought. And I'll use the guy that shot a little girl and her mom in Taylor as an example-

Apparently he purchased the gun in September. Apparently people who knew him described him as mentally disturbed. Presumably, when he bought the gun he had a background check.

Seems to me that the background check, whose job it is to try to prevent nut jobs from getting guns and killing people, failed. So my question is, what exactly is a "background" check at this point? Are they just checking for past felonies and that's it? Maybe it needs to go a little deeper.


Last edited by Travis of the Cosmos on 2015-12-07, 15:10; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-07, 15:10

LooseGoose wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

I think you're joking, but I've heard so many ludicrous statements in the last few days, I'm not sure.

Yeah - it's not like the head of CAIR would say that people talking mean about Muslims sets them off so you can't blame them if they kill a few of us over those mean words.

Why are you incapable of speaking without wild hyperbole?

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-07, 15:30

Rocinante wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Yeah - it's not like the head of CAIR would say that people talking mean about Muslims sets them off so you can't blame them if they kill a few of us over those mean words.

Why are you incapable of speaking without wild hyperbole?

Yeah. You'd ask me that question in a thread that your pal BobbyS repeated his claim that 1/2 or more of Americans support killing school children.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Vlad on 2015-12-07, 15:37

Rocinante wrote:
Vlad wrote:As a bleeding-heart, tree-huggin' liberal, I'd just like to say that Muslims are getting a free pass in this country. The so-called "peace-loving" majority need to be held accountable for the radical elements behind their closed doors. They are one and the same.

When I hear these fellow mosque goers saying on TV that they really didn't know this guy's wife, din't know he was becoming a radical, etc., I call BS on all of 'em. When his mother and sister say they didn't know, I call double BS!

Muslim-Americans need to own this if they want to continue to enjoy the liberty offered here.

I think you're joking, but I've heard so many ludicrous statements in the last few days, I'm not sure.

Why do you think I'm joking?

Just as background, I've lived side by side with these peace-lovers. I've gone to school with their kids. I've been to their weddings and birthday parties. Had a Muslim cleaning lady show up to work one day, and her nose and ears were missing. Found out later that she put too much salt in the food one night so her in-laws cut off her nose and ears while her husband watched. Too much salt in the food.

As far as Muslim-Americans, remember that this is a small ethnic minority, and it is not homogenous. African Muslims are not the same people as African-AMERICAN Muslims or Pakistani Muslims. Very, very different. These "sports heroes" Obama referred to...yeah, Mohammad Ali, Hakim Olajuan and Ahmad Rashad are NOT the same Muslims I'm worried about.

But being that they're a small minority, they CAN police themselves.  At least they can try. Nothing wrong with trying.  Can't leave everything for law enforcement.

If they want to enjoy the freedom offered in this country, they need to put some skin in the game.


Last edited by Vlad on 2015-12-07, 15:50; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2015-12-07, 15:46

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Oh good then. In that case, heres a thought. And I'll use the guy that shot a little girl and her mom in Taylor as an example-

Apparently he purchased the gun in September. Apparently people who knew him described him as mentally disturbed. Presumably, when he bought the gun he had a background check.

Seems to me that the background check, whose job it is to try to prevent nut jobs from getting guns and killing people, failed. So my question is, what exactly is a "background" check at this point? Are they just checking for past felonies and that's it? Maybe it needs to go a little deeper.
while I, along with most Americans, know that sensible gun control legislation would save lives, most Americans also believe that there should be a total approach to safety in America and that includes comprehensive mental health, as well.

As I mentioned early on, we need to focus on removing the stigma associated with mental healthcare and then make it easier to access a mental healthcare professional. Of course there are standards and criteria that can be established to help make determinations about the wellness of individuals prior to the purchase of a firearm.

or we could just screech about brown people coming and we need to be armed.. that, obviously, works really well.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-07, 15:58

Vlad wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

I think you're joking, but I've heard so many ludicrous statements in the last few days, I'm not sure.

Why do you think I'm joking?

Just as background, I've lived side by side with these peace-lovers. I've gone to school with their kids. I've been to their weddings and birthday parties. Had a Muslim cleaning lady show up to work one day, and her nose and ears were missing. Found out later that she put too much salt in the food one night so her in-laws cut off her nose and ears while her husband watched. Too much salt in the food.

As far as Muslim-Americans, remember that this is a small ethnic minority, and it is not homogenous. African Muslims are not the same people as Pakistani Muslims. Very, very different. These "sports heroes" Obama referred to...yeah, Mohammad Ali, Hakim Olajuan and Ahmad Rashad are NOT the same Muslims I'm worried about.

But being that they're a small minority, they CAN police themselves.  At least they can try. Nothing wrong with trying.  Can't leave everything for law enforcement.

If they want to enjoy the freedom offered in this country, they need to put some skin in the game.

You realise your whole argument falls apart when you consider that 1. Most Muslims don't consider that these people are acting as Muslims, but as lunatics, and 2. Christians aren't actively condemning violence perpetrated by their countries in Muslim countries as a group. And 3. If you think that all people who claim to be practitioners of a religion should be actively campaigning for the peacefulness of everyone else who claims to be a believer, you're going to be disappointed with EVERYBODY.

Generalization like that is nothing but a crutch for feeble minded simplification of complicated nuanced subjects.

Not saying you're stupid, but the "Muslims need to be condemning violence more" argument is.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by tGreenWay on 2015-12-07, 16:24

LooseGoose wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Why are you incapable of speaking without wild hyperbole?

Yeah. You'd ask me that question in a thread that your pal BobbyS repeated his claim that 1/2 or more of Americans support killing school children.

Goose, that's not what he said and you know it. Bob's comment was that the NRA and the GOP decided the lost lives of those little children was acceptable. And before you say they didn't find it acceptable, show me what Wayne LaPierre or Republican leaders proposed in order to stop this motherfucking insanity, because I must've missed their plans.
No, they all went straight into their standard defensive postures and waited out all the calls for change. Meanwhile, the Republican-led Michigan Legislature and GOP Congress continue cutting mental health and other critical social services funds--all because tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans have to be paid for.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Vlad on 2015-12-07, 16:36

Rocinante wrote:
Vlad wrote:

Why do you think I'm joking?

Just as background, I've lived side by side with these peace-lovers. I've gone to school with their kids. I've been to their weddings and birthday parties. Had a Muslim cleaning lady show up to work one day, and her nose and ears were missing. Found out later that she put too much salt in the food one night so her in-laws cut off her nose and ears while her husband watched. Too much salt in the food.

As far as Muslim-Americans, remember that this is a small ethnic minority, and it is not homogenous. African Muslims are not the same people as Pakistani Muslims. Very, very different. These "sports heroes" Obama referred to...yeah, Mohammad Ali, Hakim Olajuan and Ahmad Rashad are NOT the same Muslims I'm worried about.

But being that they're a small minority, they CAN police themselves.  At least they can try. Nothing wrong with trying.  Can't leave everything for law enforcement.

If they want to enjoy the freedom offered in this country, they need to put some skin in the game.

You realise your whole argument falls apart when you consider that 1. Most Muslims don't consider that these people are acting as Muslims, but as lunatics, and 2. Christians aren't actively condemning violence perpetrated by their countries in Muslim countries as a group. And 3. If you think that all people who claim to be practitioners of a religion should be actively campaigning for the peacefulness of everyone else who claims to be a believer, you're going to be disappointed with EVERYBODY.

Generalization like that is nothing but a crutch for feeble minded simplification of complicated nuanced subjects.

Not saying you're stupid, but the "Muslims need to be condemning violence more" argument is.

1. Where is the evidence that "most Muslims" don't consider these people are acting as Muslims? And are they talking a good game because anything else wouldn't be acceptable in public? Or do they really oppose terrorism against the West?

2. Christians SHOULD, and I believe they have.  Sometimes too late, but they have. The most obvious example is what happened in eastern Europe. Christian leaders were tried for war crimes against Muslims.

3. I don't know what "active campaigning" means.  All I'm suggesting is that they become our partners in the war on terror. It is their religion that is being denigrated around the world. They need to take some ownership, rather than stand on the sideline and say they didn't know. My feeling is that they know, and they support. No I don't have evidence to support this, just my own sense, having lived in the east and the west.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by tGreenWay on 2015-12-07, 16:44

All my Evangelical mom says is: Those aren't real Christians. Seems disowning the awful conduct of another in one's own faith is a universal reaction of all the major religions.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-07, 17:08

tGreenWay wrote:All my Evangelical mom says is: Those aren't real Christians. Seems disowning the awful conduct of another in one's own faith is a universal reaction of all the major religions.

I hope you feel foolish after reading Vlad's recent posts.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by tGreenWay on 2015-12-07, 17:21

Turtleneck wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:All my Evangelical mom says is: Those aren't real Christians. Seems disowning the awful conduct of another in one's own faith is a universal reaction of all the major religions.

I hope you feel foolish after reading Vlad's recent posts.

I feel foolish after all my posts, but especially after reading Vlad's manifesto.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-07, 17:36

Vlad wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

You realise your whole argument falls apart when you consider that 1. Most Muslims don't consider that these people are acting as Muslims, but as lunatics, and 2. Christians aren't actively condemning violence perpetrated by their countries in Muslim countries as a group. And 3. If you think that all people who claim to be practitioners of a religion should be actively campaigning for the peacefulness of everyone else who claims to be a believer, you're going to be disappointed with EVERYBODY.

Generalization like that is nothing but a crutch for feeble minded simplification of complicated nuanced subjects.

Not saying you're stupid, but the "Muslims need to be condemning violence more" argument is.

1. Where is the evidence that "most Muslims" don't consider these people are acting as Muslims? And are they talking a good game because anything else wouldn't be acceptable in public? Or do they really oppose terrorism against the West?

2. Christians SHOULD, and I believe they have.  Sometimes too late, but they have. The most obvious example is what happened in eastern Europe. Christian leaders were tried for war crimes against Muslims.

3. I don't know what "active campaigning" means.  All I'm suggesting is that they become our partners in the war on terror. It is their religion that is being denigrated around the world. They need to take some ownership, rather than stand on the sideline and say they didn't know. My feeling is that they know, and they support. No I don't have evidence to support this, just my own sense, having lived in the east and the west.

In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/

Widespread concerns about extremism in Muslim nations, and little support for it

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/05/extremism-in-muslim-nations/

Concerns about Islamic Extremism on the Rise in Middle East



http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/

...and we might as well address the the whole democracy thing (not to be confused with liberal democracy)



http://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/04/the-true-clash-of-civilizations/
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by tGreenWay on 2015-12-07, 17:48

Get out of here with your facts.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-07, 17:55

tGreenWay wrote:Get out of here with your facts.

+1

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Rocinante on 2015-12-07, 17:57

As sad as it makes me to think it. I am certain it's only a matter of time before some over-armed idiot kills one or more unarmed brown people under the guise of defending America or some other garbage.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2015-12-07, 17:59

Rocinante wrote:As sad as it makes me to think it. I am certain it's only a matter of time before some over-armed idiot kills one or more unarmed brown people under the guise of defending America or some other garbage.

Perhaps the guise of this over armed idiot will be "protect and serve."

Yeah, I just went there. Fuck it!

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Vlad on 2015-12-07, 18:13

Rocinante wrote:As sad as it makes me to think it. I am certain it's only a matter of time before some over-armed idiot kills one or more unarmed brown people under the guise of defending America or some other garbage.

Hopefully the Muslim community in this country will come together and help us prevent that from ever happening.  But I think you're right. It will happen.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Vlad on 2015-12-07, 18:22

Turtle, thanks for the data but you googled the wrong question.  Let's see the data for "terror attacks against Westerners". It's not any particular terror group that I'm interested in, because they all have their internal issues. I'm more interested in how Muslims view carrying out acts of terror against the WESTERN WORLD, since that's really what we're discussing here.

TIA.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by tGreenWay on 2015-12-07, 18:31

Vlad wrote:Turtle, thanks for the data but you googled the wrong question.  Let's see the data for "terror attacks against Westerners". It's not any particular terror group that I'm interested in, because they all have their internal issues. I'm more interested in how Muslims view carrying out acts of terror against the WESTERN WORLD, since that's really what we're discussing here.

TIA.

What about WASPs terrorizing the Western world? Oh that's right, it's really only in America, where we just have to put up with it.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-07, 18:38

tGreenWay wrote:
Vlad wrote:Turtle, thanks for the data but you googled the wrong question.  Let's see the data for "terror attacks against Westerners". It's not any particular terror group that I'm interested in, because they all have their internal issues. I'm more interested in how Muslims view carrying out acts of terror against the WESTERN WORLD, since that's really what we're discussing here.

TIA.

What about WASPs terrorizing the Western world? Oh that's right, it's really only in America, where we just have to put up with it.


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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-07, 18:48

tGreenWay wrote:Goose, that's not what he said and you know it. Bob's comment was that the NRA and the GOP decided the lost lives of those little children was acceptable. And before you say they didn't find it acceptable, show me what Wayne LaPierre or Republican leaders proposed in order to stop this motherfucking insanity, because I must've missed their plans.
No, they all went straight into their standard defensive postures and waited out all the calls for change. Meanwhile, the Republican-led Michigan Legislature and GOP Congress continue cutting mental health and other critical social services funds--all because tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans have to be paid for.

They have proposed things that would help, those proposals happen to have the effect of incarcerating more people. That's unacceptable to the other party.

And as far as stopping insanity which is responsible for most of these shootings could you direct me to Dem proposals? Nope, all the Dems want to do is to ban/confiscate guns. It's the same mantra over and over no matter the circumstances of the killings. Show me where Dems have proposed spending more money on mental health instead of their pet causes like fake global warming? Think the Billions wasted on Tom Steyer and Solyndra and his ilk might have helped?

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2015-12-07, 18:55

LooseGoose wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:Goose, that's not what he said and you know it. Bob's comment was that the NRA and the GOP decided the lost lives of those little children was acceptable. And before you say they didn't find it acceptable, show me what Wayne LaPierre or Republican leaders proposed in order to stop this motherfucking insanity, because I must've missed their plans.
No, they all went straight into their standard defensive postures and waited out all the calls for change. Meanwhile, the Republican-led Michigan Legislature and GOP Congress continue cutting mental health and other critical social services funds--all because tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans have to be paid for.

They have proposed things that would help, those proposals happen to have the effect of incarcerating more people. That's unacceptable to the other party.

And as far as stopping insanity which is responsible for most of these shootings could you direct me to Dem proposals? Nope, all the Dems want to do is to ban/confiscate guns. It's the same mantra over and over no matter the circumstances of the killings. Show me where Dems have proposed spending more money on mental health instead of their pet causes like fake global warming? Think the Billions wasted on Tom Steyer and Solyndra and his ilk might have helped?

I did earlier in this very thread numb nuts.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-07, 19:04

Vlad wrote:Turtle, thanks for the data but you googled the wrong question.  Let's see the data for "terror attacks against Westerners". It's not any particular terror group that I'm interested in, because they all have their internal issues. I'm more interested in how Muslims view carrying out acts of terror against the WESTERN WORLD, since that's really what we're discussing here.

TIA.

If you read any of the links - instead of being a patronizing asshole - you would notice survey data that gets you going down that path. The data is out there. Not too hard to find. I am always amazed at people with big mouth but such lazy research habits. I suppose it is a scary to uncover data you don't want to find/does not confirm your perspective.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Vlad on 2015-12-07, 19:50

Turtleneck wrote:
Vlad wrote:Turtle, thanks for the data but you googled the wrong question.  Let's see the data for "terror attacks against Westerners". It's not any particular terror group that I'm interested in, because they all have their internal issues. I'm more interested in how Muslims view carrying out acts of terror against the WESTERN WORLD, since that's really what we're discussing here.

TIA.

If you read any of the links - instead of being a patronizing asshole - you would notice survey data that gets you going down that path. The data is out there. Not too hard to find. I am always amazed at people with big mouth but such lazy research habits. I suppose it is a scary to uncover data you don't want to find/does not confirm your perspective.

I'll find some data for you when I get a chance. Until then can you remind me what this argument is about?? Should Muslim Americans NOT take some accountability for what is coming out of their neighborhoods their families and their mosques? Because I'm not suggesting much more than that. It's also partly what Obama said last night.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2015-12-08, 07:29

just a couple of patriotic gun enthusiasts spending some quality time together while enjoying their 2nd Amendment rights...

Terror Couple Went to Shooting Range Just Days Prior to Terrorist Attack
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-11, 20:54

In Memory Of My Brother, Who Died In The San Bernardino Attack

The top picture is of Daniel Kaufman. Nobody ever called him Larry. He was named after the Elton John song. And he was my brother. Adopted, that’s why his name is different; he was my cousin by birth. My parents adopted him when he was 10 and I was 7. He taught me how to tie my shoelaces. He taught me how to shave. The one at left was the last picture he texted me, on November 7. He’s giving the Vulcan salute because he was at a place in Van Nuys which was used as a filming location in Star Trek.

He was killed by Muslim terrorists in San Bernardino on December 2, along with 13 other people. He was 42. He was laid to rest earlier today.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by steveschneider on 2015-12-11, 20:59

You guys should be watching this Celtics game. Stop making this board a grease fire.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2015-12-11, 21:14

steveschneider wrote:You guys should be watching this Celtics game. Stop making this board a grease fire.

You're not the boss

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-11, 21:17

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
steveschneider wrote:You guys should be watching this Celtics game. Stop making this board a grease fire.

You're not the boss

If he keeps it up, I will ban him.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by steveschneider on 2015-12-11, 21:31

A ban for talking about sports would be a sign of the times. Happy to be a martyr for the next uprising in Spartan message boards.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by xsanguine on 2015-12-13, 20:05

Turtleneck wrote:I actually don't care. Do whatever you want. I don't know what I got all pissy. Well, I do know why, but it's irrelevant. Call yourself whatever you want. I suggest anaardvarkist.

I don't think it's irrelevant. I'm curious why you got "pissy" (as you put it).

I get that it doesn't fit the very specific definition that the individual who's credited with being "the first". But when you consider all of the various different "sects" that fall under that overall umbrella... I don't feel it's an outrageous term to use in the context it was.

I guess considering how the conversation became pretty "loose" by this point I'm not sure what got under your skin. Unless you really do just take the very first incarnation of anarchism by Prudhoe that seriously.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by xsanguine on 2015-12-13, 20:19

Turtleneck wrote:

In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/

Widespread concerns about extremism in Muslim nations, and little support for it

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/05/extremism-in-muslim-nations/

Concerns about Islamic Extremism on the Rise in Middle East



http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/

...and we might as well address the the whole democracy thing (not to be confused with liberal democracy)



http://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/04/the-true-clash-of-civilizations/

These particular surveys are definitely encouraging.
I've been going back and forth because I see a lot of surveys that seem to contradict ones like these and what I think Vlad is referring to. There's a list I saw compiled with a bunch of Pew and Gallop polls from different countries that paint a lot more negative picture of the views of Muslims in different parts of the world. For example;

CM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...ate=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/

BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".
http://comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-...y-muslim-poll/

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...-Poll-Data.pdf

Informal poll of Saudis in August 2014 shows 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.co...ic-law-survey/

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 38% of Muslim-Americans say Islamic State (ISIS) beliefs are Islamic or correct. (43% disagree),
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...-Poll-Data.pdf


I only know a few Muslims and the ones I do know are very "Americanized"... but that's just a handful of hundreds I was looking at that made me a little uneasy. Polls are very tricky little devils, though, too...

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-13, 20:40

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/

Widespread concerns about extremism in Muslim nations, and little support for it

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/05/extremism-in-muslim-nations/

Concerns about Islamic Extremism on the Rise in Middle East



http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/

...and we might as well address the the whole democracy thing (not to be confused with liberal democracy)



http://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/04/the-true-clash-of-civilizations/

These particular surveys are definitely encouraging.
I've been going back and forth because I see a lot of surveys that seem to contradict ones like these and what I think Vlad is referring to. There's a list I saw compiled with a bunch of Pew and Gallop polls from different countries that paint a lot more negative picture of the views of Muslims in different parts of the world. For example;

CM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...ate=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/

BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".
http://comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-...y-muslim-poll/

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...-Poll-Data.pdf

Informal poll of Saudis in August 2014 shows 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.co...ic-law-survey/

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 38% of Muslim-Americans say Islamic State (ISIS) beliefs are Islamic or correct. (43% disagree),
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...-Poll-Data.pdf


I only know a few Muslims and the ones I do know are very "Americanized"... but that's just a handful of hundreds I was looking at that made me a little uneasy. Polls are very tricky little devils, though, too...

It's not really compiling if you just copy and past from religionofpeace.com.

When it says 20% or 1 in 4 sympathize with or justify terrorist attacks, does that mean 80% and 75% do not sympathize or justify?
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by LooseGoose on 2015-12-13, 21:02


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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-13, 21:05

LooseGoose wrote:

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by xsanguine on 2015-12-13, 21:06

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

These particular surveys are definitely encouraging.
I've been going back and forth because I see a lot of surveys that seem to contradict ones like these and what I think Vlad is referring to. There's a list I saw compiled with a bunch of Pew and Gallop polls from different countries that paint a lot more negative picture of the views of Muslims in different parts of the world. For example;

CM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...ate=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/

BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".
http://comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-...y-muslim-poll/

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...-Poll-Data.pdf

Informal poll of Saudis in August 2014 shows 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.co...ic-law-survey/

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 38% of Muslim-Americans say Islamic State (ISIS) beliefs are Islamic or correct. (43% disagree),
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...-Poll-Data.pdf


I only know a few Muslims and the ones I do know are very "Americanized"... but that's just a handful of hundreds I was looking at that made me a little uneasy. Polls are very tricky little devils, though, too...

It's not really compiling if you just copy and past from religionofpeace.com.

I didn't compile anything. While I didn't copy/paste them from that website, if that's where they're originally from, then that would have been easier for me... I got the particular ones I just posted from discussions I was having in a couple of other message boards. There's hundreds more but if those polls/surveys are invalid because they're on that website then I guess there's no point in looking for any more.

Turtleneck wrote:
When it says 20% or 1 in 4 sympathize with or justify terrorist attacks, does that mean 80% and 75% do not sympathize or justify?

If it's anything like most of these types of polls/surveys I'd imagine if 25% say that the 7/7 suicide bombings on London's public transit system were justified the other 75% would be in either "not justified" or "no opinion".

I think the point is that while it's a minority of people that believe these crazy things. It's not an insignificant minority and what's also alarming is that it's citizens of western nations. That "Is the 7/7 suicide bombings on London buses justified due to the UK's support for American occupation of Iraq" question was asked in the UK, for example. Because then in places like Egypt or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia... the percentages are much more worrisome.

I'm finding myself in a devil's advocate position since I don't feel too strongly about this one way or the other I just felt like adding to the polls/surveys you were posting as kind of a flip-side thing.

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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by NigelUno on 2015-12-13, 21:06

Live Long and Prosper.
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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by xsanguine on 2015-12-13, 21:09

LooseGoose wrote:


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Re: Your Weekly Mass Shooting

Post by Turtleneck on 2015-12-13, 21:09

NigelUno wrote:Live Long and Prosper.

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