Re: The political hodge podge thread

[MiamiSpartan]

So 2 wrongs make a right.

Hold up here. What we need, and I advocate strongly for is more diversity in all bands. More color not only in orchestra but in marching bands. Take a look at MSU's band next fall. Do you think that the percentage of band members of color will match the student enrollment percentages? Why not? That's the question we have to come to an answer here. Why not? Black kids aren't as talented as white kids? Who agrees with that. Or, is it something deeper? It's damn expensive to be in a h.s. band. Raise money buy your instrument go to private lessons maybe, and be brought up with the type of music that we hear at MSU's halftime. How do we make that more inclusive? There is a point where you have to say, it's not two wrongs I'm working on, it's one huge wrong that has set people way back and it's another , that on the surface looks like it sure does segregate, but maybe we need to do this to generate interest and a history for various races that will make it more inclusive.

Dwags, I understand the big picture point that you're trying to make about race in general, but you realize that you're making this point about music, right? Outside of sports, is there an industry where blacks are MORE represented than in music?

But then you go even more off-base by talking about marching bands. A musical sub-genre in which an entire movie franchise was based on black marching bands. Maybe being in the North you don't really hear about it, since there aren't as many historically black colleges like there are in the South, but bands at those schools are pretty well known (to the point that they're promoted more than the football teams). Yes, it's small colleges, but when Florida A&M comes to play Miami, they promote that to come out and see the legendary FAMU band. Band competitions involving all or mostly black marching bands are broadcast on TV. There's no shortage of marching band inspiration (let alone other musical inspiration) for young black kids.

You say that we need to "generate an interest and history" for blacks in music? But there are few things that are so deeply rooted and such a strong part of African-American history than music. Or is it just that we need to generate an interest and history in 400-year old white European music and/or overly structured playing and marching as you get in a traditional marching band?

[Rocinante]

Corexshun: American music IS black music.

[xsanguine]

Hold up here. What we need, and I advocate strongly for is more diversity in all bands. More color not only in orchestra but in marching bands. Take a look at MSU's band next fall. Do you think that the percentage of band members of color will match the student enrollment percentages? Why not? That's the question we have to come to an answer here. Why not? Black kids aren't as talented as white kids? Who agrees with that. Or, is it something deeper? It's damn expensive to be in a h.s. band. Raise money buy your instrument go to private lessons maybe, and be brought up with the type of music that we hear at MSU's halftime. How do we make that more inclusive? There is a point where you have to say, it's not two wrongs I'm working on, it's one huge wrong that has set people way back and it's another , that on the surface looks like it sure does segregate, but maybe we need to do this to generate interest and a history for various races that will make it more inclusive.

Dwags, I understand the big picture point that you're trying to make about race in general, but you realize that you're making this point about music, right? Outside of sports, is there an industry where blacks are MORE represented than in music?

But then you go even more off-base by talking about marching bands. A musical sub-genre in which an entire movie franchise was based on black marching bands. Maybe being in the North you don't really hear about it, since there aren't as many historically black colleges like there are in the South, but bands at those schools are pretty well known (to the point that they're promoted more than the football teams). Yes, it's small colleges, but when Florida A&M comes to play Miami, they promote that to come out and see the legendary FAMU band. Band competitions involving all or mostly black marching bands are broadcast on TV. There's no shortage of marching band inspiration (let alone other musical inspiration) for young black kids.

You say that we need to "generate an interest and history" for blacks in music? But there are few things that are so deeply rooted and such a strong part of African-American history than music. Or is it just that we need to generate an interest and history in 400-year old white European music and/or overly structured playing and marching as you get in a traditional marching band?

Dwags hasn't thought this through he just wants everyone else to know how tolerant he is and how stupidly far he's willing to go to prove it.

Kind of like me with anarchism.

[MiamiSpartan]

Marching bands and orchestras need more diversity because some white man from the suburbs says it needs to be so.

Why not just let them do what they want? Why is that such a crazy concept? Quit with your cultural marxist attempts at socially engineering a world you think should exist and let the individual decide for themselves without the constant virtue signalling. They're not impressed, btw.



"But, but... muh 1960's!!!"

Why do you whites always think you have to fix everything for everyone? And where have we seen this before, several times...."We need to put Indian kids in white schools so that they'll learn and have a better future!!! Yeah, that's it!" This is the irony behind ideologies like Dwags and he doesn't even realize what sort of slave master attitude he's actually espousing.

This is a good analogy, and in it's simplest form was basically because whites in this country in the 19th Century felt that white culture was superior.

Although I doubt it was intended, dwags' opinion was kind of saying that white musical culture is better.  After all, orchestras and marching bands are primarily white/European creations with white/European-made instruments, performed in a white/European manner (though I suppose one could trace back marching bands to any ancient culture that might have used war drums).

[xsanguine]

Marching bands and orchestras need more diversity because some white man from the suburbs says it needs to be so.

Why not just let them do what they want? Why is that such a crazy concept? Quit with your cultural marxist attempts at socially engineering a world you think should exist and let the individual decide for themselves without the constant virtue signalling. They're not impressed, btw.



"But, but... muh 1960's!!!"

Why do you whites always think you have to fix everything for everyone? And where have we seen this before, several times...."We need to put Indian kids in white schools so that they'll learn and have a better future!!! Yeah, that's it!" This is the irony behind ideologies like Dwags and he doesn't even realize what sort of slave master attitude he's actually espousing.

This is a good analogy, and in it's simplest form was basically because whites in this country in the 19th Century felt that white culture was superior.

Although I doubt it was intended, dwags' opinion was kind of saying that white musical culture is better.  After all, orchestras and marching bands are primarily white/European creations with white/European-made instruments, performed in a white/European manner (though I suppose one could trace back marching bands to any ancient culture that might have used war drums).

Every time some do-gooder white boy who thinks he's going to pull some Dangerous Minds shit and put on a doo-rag and start crip-walkin cause he thinks he can be buddy buddy with the 'hood folk' end up fucking everything up even worse. Whites have destroyed the black family with their racist welfare policies and racist drug war.

To those types of whites... you don't know how to black people better than black people. Leave them alone and let them do their thing... oppose those who would fuck with them through Jim Crow-type laws should that ever occur again, sure, of course... but stop trying to dress them up and parade them around in a manner you desire because you think that's what they need to save them from their oh-so-horrible urban existences.

And when it comes to music/entertainment and sports... they almost always do it better. You don't know anything about it, peckerwood. So step out of the way.

[Rocinante]

God your ignorance astounds me sometimes, X.

Not because it's unusual, just because I think you're a self aware person, so I sometimes have to think it's deliberate.

The recognition of a society that stacks the deck against non-whites is not "dressing them up and parading them around". Fucking listen. Just listen to some Malcom x speeches. Or heaven forbid, some MLK speeches near the end of his life. Take them to heart.

[xsanguine]

God your ignorance astounds me sometimes, X.

Not because it's unusual, just because I think you're a self aware person, so I sometimes have to think it's deliberate.

The recognition of a society that stacks the deck against non-whites is not "dressing them up and parading them around". Fucking listen. Just listen to some Malcom x speeches. Or heaven forbid, some MLK speeches near the end of his life. Take them to heart.

I do and I have. Which is why all this cultural marxism is ridiculous. Malcolm X and MLK weren't looking for handouts or pity from the whites who like to pat themselves on the back for being so "woke" when what they're subconsciously doing is conveying actual racism; "They can't seem to decide for themselves what we know is good for them so we'll choose for them."

If they want to join the MSU Marching Band they will and they'll do it on their own terms. No one is keeping them from doing so and they don't want anyone pandering to them what they should want to do or making it easier for them to join simply because of the color of their skin. They are fully capable of earning it on merit alone if they so choose to.

[DWags]

Although I doubt it was intended, dwags' opinion was kind of saying that white musical culture is better.  

I know X is a dumb ass but come on.

Let's do a what if.

What if we cut funding to high school soccer wrestling baseball and hockey. Just tell the kids there's no money for it, sorry look for something else to do.

Let's move that funding into cities. Start with pee wee leagues move on up to major levels of all of them. Let's do it for the next two decades.

Would a dumb ass say, " if those damn rural and suburban kids want to join the college jockey, wrestling, lacrosse or soccer teams, they would".

It would then be followed by: "em but those kids never had the programs so how could they?"


And people would agree. Guaranteed.

I wish I could run some HS budgets by you guys. It's closer now in Michigan and I can't speak for other states but I'm only asking for a level playing field and equal access. I know I'll be told everyone needs to make due with what they got. OK. Fine. It is what it is.

But Miami Spartan did you seriously think I believe marching band and orchestra "culture" is better than jazz blues or whatever? If that's how it came off I couldn't have been a bigger part of a misunderstanding than when my wife wanted a message and facial for her birthday ten years ago. Man, did I get that wrong.

[xsanguine]

Oh, it's about funding. So, by that logic, the reason why there isn't a proportional amount of whites/asians/hispanics on NCAA basketball teams is because they come from places that cut funding to their basketball programs?

[xsanguine]

Dwags looks at a problem and only sees racism. He can't come to any other conclusion for why something might be except for "because whites did it out of hatred for other races".

[xsanguine]

You destroy the black family through welfare programs and through the drug war with minimum mandatory sentences, decimate the nuclear family and leaving children without a male role model... causing widespread poverty, crime and people that are dependent on government subsistence...

And then wonder why there's no funding for extra-curricular activities.

"It's cause of these shadowy white racists that no one can pinpoint or identify!!!"

[xsanguine]

I know X is a dumb ass but come on.  

And yet I'm not the one advocating cultural Marxism.

The cognitive dissonance you display is hilarious, Dwags.

[DWags]

Oh and by the way, pretty Much HS basketball is at every school in our state. Hockey? Lacrosse? Wrestling? Soccer?

Not so much. Know why many schools only have the big three? Know why only a few have a plethora?

Not just uniforms as expenses think travel think coaching salary mats gym time finding other schools that have the specialty sports electricity amount of workers needed for games.

If me wishing for equitable funding for all schools is keeping kids on welfare, just call me Lyndon Johnson.

[xsanguine]

I'll take that as a direct response.

<-------Winner

[xsanguine]

The black community thanks you, Dwags, for supporting policies that have taken them from 20% single parent households before civil rights to 72% today. Congrats! You'll be an honorary member in no time.

[xsanguine]

Oh and by the way, pretty Much HS basketball is at every school in our state. Hockey?  Lacrosse?  Wrestling? Soccer?

Not so much. Know why many schools only have the big three?  Know why only a few have a plethora?  

Not just uniforms as expenses think travel think coaching salary mats gym time finding other schools that have the specialty sports electricity amount of workers needed for games.

If me wishing for equitable funding for all schools is keeping kids on welfare, just call me Lyndon Johnson.

The money has to come from somewhere, Dwags.....'oh, hey there guy who lives 20 miles away.... you seem to have some extra money, you're going to have to fork over some of that so that those kids 20 miles away will have more sports to play. Think of the children, won't you.... Nazi?'

That's right... there's no shortage of other people's money that can be taken by force when administrators in public education put their minds to it. I mean, look at the bang up job they've done with the rest of education, socialism is just great!

Like a ravenously spreading cancer, let's move into health care. What's the worst that can happen?... It's a right, after all, you know.

[MiamiSpartan]

Although I doubt it was intended, dwags' opinion was kind of saying that white musical culture is better.  

I know X is a dumb ass but come on.

Let's do a what if.

What if we cut funding to high school soccer wrestling baseball and hockey. Just tell the kids there's no money for it, sorry look for something else to do.

Let's move that funding into cities. Start with pee wee leagues move on up to major levels of all of them. Let's do it for the next two decades.

Would a dumb ass say, " if those damn rural and suburban kids want to join the college jockey, wrestling, lacrosse or soccer teams, they would".

It would then be followed by: "em but those kids never had the programs so how could they?"


And people would agree. Guaranteed.

I wish I could run some HS budgets by you guys. It's closer now in Michigan and I can't speak for other states but I'm only asking for a level playing field and equal access. I know I'll be told everyone needs to make due with what they got. OK. Fine. It is what it is.

But Miami Spartan did you seriously think I believe marching band and orchestra "culture" is better than jazz blues or whatever? If that's how it came off I couldn't have been a bigger part of a misunderstanding than when my wife wanted a message and facial for her birthday ten years ago. Man, did I get that wrong.

Did you seriously not see where I said, "I doubt it was intended"? So no, I dont think you think its better, I think you just said something that sounds compassionate without thinking it through.

You're complaining that we need to generate an interest and history in orchestra and traditional marching bands among blacks. Why? Why is that needed? Because some schools cut funding? That's a very different concept than generating an interest and history in two types of music, when blacks already have very much interest and history and active involvement in other types of music. Just perhaps not white European types of music. So why is an interest and history in white European music needed?

[DWags]

I know X is a dumb ass but come on.

Let's do a what if.

What if we cut funding to high school soccer wrestling baseball and hockey. Just tell the kids there's no money for it, sorry look for something else to do.

Let's move that funding into cities. Start with pee wee leagues move on up to major levels of all of them. Let's do it for the next two decades.

Would a dumb ass say, " if those damn rural and suburban kids want to join the college jockey, wrestling, lacrosse or soccer teams, they would".

It would then be followed by: "em but those kids never had the programs so how could they?"


And people would agree. Guaranteed.

I wish I could run some HS budgets by you guys. It's closer now in Michigan and I can't speak for other states but I'm only asking for a level playing field and equal access. I know I'll be told everyone needs to make due with what they got. OK. Fine. It is what it is.

But Miami Spartan did you seriously think I believe marching band and orchestra "culture" is better than jazz blues or whatever? If that's how it came off I couldn't have been a bigger part of a misunderstanding than when my wife wanted a message and facial for her birthday ten years ago. Man, did I get that wrong.

Did you seriously not see where I said, "I doubt it was intended"? So no, I dont think you think its better, I think you just said something that sounds compassionate without thinking it through.

You're complaining that we need to generate an interest and history in orchestra and traditional marching bands among blacks. Why? Why is that needed? Because some schools cut funding? That's a very different concept than generating an interest and history in two types of music, when blacks already have very much interest and history and active involvement in other types of music. Just perhaps not white European types of music. So why is an interest and history in white European music needed?

First, it's not blacks, it's those who haven't been exposed to it because of who they were born to or what longitude and latitude. I am not advocating taking anything away from anybody. It is my wish that all funding was equitable. I don't get why that idea is met with opposition. That is not anti suburb, pro city anti right wing pro left, it is a wish that some schools weren't getting 11K for kids and some were getting 7500. (Rough numbers when I was an administrator)

I guess this has passed me by. I've already said that I have no magical answer and Goose is right two wrongs don't make a right. But we have such dumb asses on this board they say "if they want to join a college band they will". Think about the idiocy in a statement like that.

Oh and I once asked the school board president when he was asking me if I thought the large crowds at our football games were coming to see our football team, that was a top five team in our class, or the fucking band: "well if they're coming to see our band why do we sell so many more hot dogs at halftime?' I'm certainly not a band guy. But I wonder if you could answer my what if from the previous post?

[xsanguine]

So you're not taking anything from anyone (raising taxes, taking funds from other wallets/schools, etc.)... but you're raising the amount of funds for these programs that were removed for a reason (whether it's financial or financial mixed with a lack of interest)...

Where is this money coming from?

[AnomanderRake]

*Double post

[AnomanderRake]

What does equitable funding for all schools really mean to you Wags? I'm curious to understand your vision or end game here.

[Rocinante]

Let's back out a second and instead of talking about school just talk about society. Whites were given handouts through homesteading and state run colleges among other things, blacks were released from slavery without access to any of the advantages given to whites. It was like " you're free!" But you can't have any of the benefits given to whites. Then whites for over a century sat back and clucked their tongues at the blacks inability to rise. It was a stacked deck and still is because we refuse to acknowledge the built in privilege of being white. Affirmative action, scholarships, and other benefits given to non-whites are all an attempt to remedy that situation.

The drug war and the criminalization of blackness have been (mostly deliberate) ways to continue slavery.

So I think we're on the same side here. The only real difference is that I don't think "handouts" as x calls them are detrimental to black society. I think there's a subversive and somewhat deliberate characterization of blackness as evil because it serves a political purpose and it infects all of society with this idea of otherness.

Have any of you seen 13th? It's a little propaganda-ish but very good.

[Guest]

Let's back out a second and instead of talking about school just talk about society. Whites were given handouts through homesteading and state run colleges among other things, blacks were released from slavery without access to any of the advantages given to whites. It was like " you're free!" But you can't have any of the benefits given to whites. Then whites for over a century sat back and clucked their tongues at the blacks inability to rise. It was a stacked deck and still is because we refuse to acknowledge the built in privilege of being white. Affirmative action, scholarships, and other benefits given to non-whites are all an attempt to remedy that situation.  

What about the whites that came over as indentured servants?  Pretty sweet deal for all "non-whites" to benefit from these slavery reparations when many if not most of their ancestors never suffered as slaves.   What if Black resent that?  I guess they wouldn't - they certainly looked past Obama being only 6.25% Black and having no slave ancestry at all..

[GRR Spartan]

What about all the poor oppressed white people in Oscoda County?

[Rocinante]

Let's back out a second and instead of talking about school just talk about society. Whites were given handouts through homesteading and state run colleges among other things, blacks were released from slavery without access to any of the advantages given to whites. It was like " you're free!" But you can't have any of the benefits given to whites. Then whites for over a century sat back and clucked their tongues at the blacks inability to rise. It was a stacked deck and still is because we refuse to acknowledge the built in privilege of being white. Affirmative action, scholarships, and other benefits given to non-whites are all an attempt to remedy that situation.  

What about the whites that came over as indentured servants?  Pretty sweet deal for all "non-whites" to benefit from these slavery reparations when many if not most of their ancestors never suffered as slaves.   What if Black resent that?  I guess they wouldn't - they certainly looked past Obama being only 6.25% Black and having no slave ancestry at all..

That is a straw man. Indentured servitude is not the same as slavery and all whites (well, men anyway), even those who had come over as indentured servants were qualified for homesteading and free education (through the Morrill Act) from land grant colleges for farming. Blacks could not homestead and were not provided farming assistance.

I mean, you know every freed slave was offered 40 acres and a mule, right? That never happened.

[xsanguine]

Let's back out a second and instead of talking about school just talk about society. Whites were given handouts through homesteading and state run colleges among other things, blacks were released from slavery without access to any of the advantages given to whites. It was like " you're free!" But you can't have any of the benefits given to whites. Then whites for over a century sat back and clucked their tongues at the blacks inability to rise. It was a stacked deck and still is because we refuse to acknowledge the built in privilege of being white. Affirmative action, scholarships, and other benefits given to non-whites are all an attempt to remedy that situation.

The drug war and the criminalization of blackness have been (mostly deliberate) ways to continue slavery.

So I think we're on the same side here. The only real difference is that I don't think "handouts" as x calls them are detrimental to black society. I think there's a subversive and somewhat deliberate characterization of blackness as evil because it serves a political purpose and it infects all of society with this idea of otherness.

Have any of you seen 13th?  It's a little propaganda-ish but very good.

That's something I don't convey often... usually I'm just picking fights with random posters out of boredom (been on crutches for 6 weeks, you guys only gotta put up with me for another week or two... unless I'm banned before that). We are, as you said, on the same side... we agree there's a problem within the black community that isn't of their doing. We do disagree on the source of that problem and then clearly we disagree on the solutions.

I disagree that there's a "criminalization of blackness". The vast majority of black crimes are against other black folk and this is confirmed in the National Crime Surveys that correlate 1:1 with the crime stats. Crime IS a problem within the black community. They are disproportionately the major source of violent crime, most of the time against one another. It's not some phantom fiction. But every time we have this debate I fail to also state that yes.... this crime problem is real, but no, I don't blame them. It's not their fault.

We know that children raised in fatherless homes are far more likely to grow up to be poor and engage in crime. Regardless of racial lines. I find myself in the camp of people like Thomas Sowell on this issue. So I just want to C&P some excerpts from one of his writings;

The economic milieu in which the War on Poverty arose is noteworthy. As of 1965, the number of Americans living below the official poverty line had been declining continuously since the beginning of the decade and was only about half of what it had been fifteen years earlier. Between 1950 and 1965, the proportion of people whose earnings put them below the poverty level, had decreased by more than 30%. The black poverty rate had been cut nearly in half between 1940 and 1960. In various skilled trades during the period of 1936-59, the incomes of blacks relative to whites had more than doubled. Further, the representation of blacks in professional and other high-level occupations grew more quickly during the five years preceding the launch of the War on Poverty than during the five years thereafter.

The most devastating by-product of the mushrooming welfare state was the corrosive effect it had (along with powerful cultural phenomena such as the feminist and Black Power movements) on American family life, particularly in the black community.
 As provisions in welfare laws offered ever-increasing economic incentives for shunning marriage and avoiding the formation of two-parent families, illegitimacy rates rose dramatically.

For the next few decades, means-tested welfare programs such as food stamps, public housing, Medicaid, day care, and Temporary Assistance to Needy Families penalized marriage. A mother generally received far more money from welfare if she was single rather than married. Once she took a husband, her benefits were instantly reduced by roughly 10 to 20 percent. As a Cato Institute study noted, welfare programs for the poor incentivize the very behaviors that are most likely to perpetuate poverty.[2]  Another Cato report observes:

“Of course women do not get pregnant just to get welfare benefits.... But, by removing the economic consequences of out-of-wedlock birth, welfare has removed a major incentive to avoid such pregnancies. A teenager looking around at her friends and neighbors is liable to see several who have given birth out-of- wedlock. When she sees that they have suffered few visible consequences ... she is less inclined to modify her own behavior to prevent pregnancy.... Current welfare policies seem to be designed with an appalling lack of concern for their impact on out-of-wedlock births. Indeed, Medicaid programs in 11 states actually provide infertility treatments to single women on welfare.”

The results of welfare policies discouraging marriage and family were dramatic, as out-of-wedlock birthrates skyrocketed among all demographic groups in the U.S., but most notably African Americans. In the mid-1960s, the out-of-wedlock birth rate was scarcely 3% for whites, 7.7% for Americans overall, and 24.5% among blacks. By 1976, those figures had risen to nearly 10% for whites, 24.7% for Americans as a whole, and 50.3% for blacks in particular. In 1987, for the first time in the history of any American racial or ethnic group, the birth rate for unmarried black women surpassed that for married black women. Today the illegitimacy rates stand at 41% for the nation overall, and 73% for African Americans specifically.[4]

I'm not sure what political purpose you think this deliberate characterization of blacks as evil is serving... what I see in the media and from politicians is them tripping over one another to prove to everyone they're "one of the good ones". Either way, I don't want to get bogged down in that part of the discussion.

Another thing I always fail to convey... I do think the drug war is a far bigger, more immediate, and easier to fix problem than trying to tackle the welfare state. I would argue that it's amplified the by-product of the welfare state that I feel is detrimental to the black family. I've advocated many times on this board to taking an ax to it not just from the perspective of individual liberty but mostly because it was, like you said, deliberately designed to enslave minorities.

I tend to zero in on what we don't agree on because I get bored agreeing with others. I'm weird like that. To me, there has to be something we're working towards rather than patting each other on the back for what we agree on. It's probably why I can never just be content with anything in life and am always worried about completing the next thing on my plate that I've created.

I haven't seen 13th. I'm going to give it a watch this afternoon.

[Rocinante]

Let's back out a second and instead of talking about school just talk about society. Whites were given handouts through homesteading and state run colleges among other things, blacks were released from slavery without access to any of the advantages given to whites. It was like " you're free!" But you can't have any of the benefits given to whites. Then whites for over a century sat back and clucked their tongues at the blacks inability to rise. It was a stacked deck and still is because we refuse to acknowledge the built in privilege of being white. Affirmative action, scholarships, and other benefits given to non-whites are all an attempt to remedy that situation.

The drug war and the criminalization of blackness have been (mostly deliberate) ways to continue slavery.

So I think we're on the same side here. The only real difference is that I don't think "handouts" as x calls them are detrimental to black society. I think there's a subversive and somewhat deliberate characterization of blackness as evil because it serves a political purpose and it infects all of society with this idea of otherness.

Have any of you seen 13th?  It's a little propaganda-ish but very good.

That's something I don't convey often... usually I'm just picking fights with random posters out of boredom (been on crutches for 6 weeks, you guys only gotta put up with me for another week or two... unless I'm banned before that). We are, as you said, on the same side... we agree there's a problem within the black community that isn't of their doing. We do disagree on the source of that problem and then clearly we disagree on the solutions.

I disagree that there's a "criminalization of blackness". The vast majority of black crimes are against other black folk and this is confirmed in the National Crime Surveys that correlate 1:1 with the crime stats. Crime IS a problem within the black community. They are disproportionately the major source of violent crime, most of the time against one another. It's not some phantom fiction. But every time we have this debate I fail to also state that yes.... this crime problem is real, but no, I don't blame them. It's not their fault.

We know that children raised in fatherless homes are far more likely to grow up to be poor and engage in crime. Regardless of racial lines. I find myself in the camp of people like Thomas Sowell on this issue. So I just want to C&P some excerpts from one of his writings;

The economic milieu in which the War on Poverty arose is noteworthy. As of 1965, the number of Americans living below the official poverty line had been declining continuously since the beginning of the decade and was only about half of what it had been fifteen years earlier. Between 1950 and 1965, the proportion of people whose earnings put them below the poverty level, had decreased by more than 30%. The black poverty rate had been cut nearly in half between 1940 and 1960. In various skilled trades during the period of 1936-59, the incomes of blacks relative to whites had more than doubled. Further, the representation of blacks in professional and other high-level occupations grew more quickly during the five years preceding the launch of the War on Poverty than during the five years thereafter.

The most devastating by-product of the mushrooming welfare state was the corrosive effect it had (along with powerful cultural phenomena such as the feminist and Black Power movements) on American family life, particularly in the black community.
 As provisions in welfare laws offered ever-increasing economic incentives for shunning marriage and avoiding the formation of two-parent families, illegitimacy rates rose dramatically.

For the next few decades, means-tested welfare programs such as food stamps, public housing, Medicaid, day care, and Temporary Assistance to Needy Families penalized marriage. A mother generally received far more money from welfare if she was single rather than married. Once she took a husband, her benefits were instantly reduced by roughly 10 to 20 percent. As a Cato Institute study noted, welfare programs for the poor incentivize the very behaviors that are most likely to perpetuate poverty.[2]  Another Cato report observes:

“Of course women do not get pregnant just to get welfare benefits.... But, by removing the economic consequences of out-of-wedlock birth, welfare has removed a major incentive to avoid such pregnancies. A teenager looking around at her friends and neighbors is liable to see several who have given birth out-of- wedlock. When she sees that they have suffered few visible consequences ... she is less inclined to modify her own behavior to prevent pregnancy.... Current welfare policies seem to be designed with an appalling lack of concern for their impact on out-of-wedlock births. Indeed, Medicaid programs in 11 states actually provide infertility treatments to single women on welfare.”

The results of welfare policies discouraging marriage and family were dramatic, as out-of-wedlock birthrates skyrocketed among all demographic groups in the U.S., but most notably African Americans. In the mid-1960s, the out-of-wedlock birth rate was scarcely 3% for whites, 7.7% for Americans overall, and 24.5% among blacks. By 1976, those figures had risen to nearly 10% for whites, 24.7% for Americans as a whole, and 50.3% for blacks in particular. In 1987, for the first time in the history of any American racial or ethnic group, the birth rate for unmarried black women surpassed that for married black women. Today the illegitimacy rates stand at 41% for the nation overall, and 73% for African Americans specifically.[4]

I'm not sure what political purpose you think this deliberate characterization of blacks as evil is serving... what I see in the media and from politicians is them tripping over one another to prove to everyone they're "one of the good ones". Either way, I don't want to get bogged down in that part of the discussion.

Another thing I always fail to convey... I do think the drug war is a far bigger, more immediate, and easier to fix problem than trying to tackle the welfare state. I would argue that it's amplified the by-product of the welfare state that I feel is detrimental to the black family. I've advocated many times on this board to taking an ax to it not just from the perspective of individual liberty but mostly because it was, like you said, deliberately designed to enslave minorities.

I tend to zero in on what we don't agree on because I get bored agreeing with others. I'm weird like that. To me, there has to be something we're working towards rather than patting each other on the back for what we agree on. It's probably why I can never just be content with anything in life and am always worried about completing the next thing on my plate that I've created.

I haven't seen 13th. I'm going to give it a watch this afternoon.

Okay there's a lot going on in this post. Let me try to succinctly zero in on them:

1. I don't think that the fact that there is a high prevalence of black on black crime tells us anything about the criminalization of blackness that I talked about. Politicians discovered long ago that having an "other" to rally the voting public against was beneficial. As such, with black people, there is a built-in "other" in the U.S. Dog whistle words have changed over the generations, (from law and order, to war on crime, to war on drugs, to blue lives matter) but the strategy is the same, mobilize white voters through fear of the "other" and use that fear to build vast institutions that provide profit (in various forms) to white people at the expense of blacks. I'm sure you'll have thoughts about 13th, and I'd like you to start another thread about it when you watch it (and fact-check it). We can talk more about that then.

2. Fatherless homes: The percentage of people who have children with the intent of using them to suckle off the government teat is negligible. Further, if there are people who say "I want to get pregnant so that I can get a check from the government." they are probably sociopaths. Although the quotes you provide specifically say that "Of course women do not get pregnant just to get welfare benefits." it then goes on to explain why they do just that. In my opinion, even the dumbest, most uneducated person on the planet knows that life is harder when you have to raise kids than it is when you don't.

But I'll throw you a bone. The idea that the examples that a young woman has in her life, including those of peers and mentors who have children with no father around can have an effect on what she sees as acceptable and her behavior. In general, I think that contraceptives and birth control should be handed out in schools, on the streets and wherever kids congregate. That's not a race thing, that's a common sense thing. I also think the stigma of BC should be eliminated. Bottom line for me, it's easier to be poor and child-free than poor with a bunch of rugrats, even with your gubment check.

I also think the bolded quote you provide at the beginning showing the economic rise of blacks post-WW2 illustrates 2 things: 1). Economic expansion in the U.S. postwar was so gangbusters that everybody had opportunities, and 2). blacks had so much further to rise than whites. Keep in mind also that the civil right movement was happening at the same time, which had an effect on black earning potential... especially in the north.

One more bone for you: Is is possible that some agreement to expansion of welfare programs on the right was considered to have the additional benefit of neutering black power movements? I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

[MiamiSpartan]

Did you seriously not see where I said, "I doubt it was intended"?  So no, I dont think you think its better, I think you just said something that sounds compassionate without thinking it through.

You're complaining that we need to generate an interest and history in orchestra and traditional marching bands among blacks.  Why?  Why is that needed?  Because some schools cut funding?  That's a very different concept than generating an interest and history in two types of music, when blacks already have very much interest and history and active involvement in other types of music.  Just perhaps not white European types of music.  So why is an interest and history in white European music needed?

First, it's not blacks, it's those who haven't been exposed to it because of who they were born to or what longitude and latitude. I am not advocating taking anything away from anybody. It is my wish that all funding was equitable.   I don't get why that idea is met with opposition. That is not anti suburb, pro city anti right wing pro left, it is a wish that some schools weren't getting 11K for kids and some were getting 7500. (Rough numbers when I was an administrator)

I guess this has passed me by.  I've already said that I have no magical answer and Goose is right two wrongs don't make a right. But we have such dumb asses on this board they say "if they want to join a college band they will". Think about the idiocy in a statement like that.

Oh and I once asked the school board president when he was asking me if I thought the large crowds at our football games were coming to see our football team, that was a top five team in our class, or the fucking band: "well if they're coming to see our band why do we sell so many more hot dogs at halftime?'  I'm certainly not a band guy.  But I wonder if you could answer my what if from the previous post?

You keep bringing it back to funding, which is a different argument than you made earlier.  There should be more funding for the arts, I'm not arguing that.  But you weren't just talking about funding.  You said, "What we need, and I advocate strongly for is more diversity in all bands. More color not only in orchestra but in marching bands."  And regarding the non-white orchestra, you said, "maybe we need to do this to generate interest and a history for various races that will make it more inclusive."

I'm just asking WHY?  Why do we need that?  More importantly, why do blacks need that?  We're talking about music, an art that has had a special place in black culture for hundreds of years, and an industry in which they're more represented than any other (except maybe sports).  You say we need to "generate an interest and a history"?  They have that.  Maybe not so much in orchestra and traditional marching bands, so again, I come back to WHY they need this?   Why do blacks need to get in to those two types of white European music, when they are so involved in other types?  

But since you don't really seem to have answers to that, and therefore keep bringing it back to funding (again, which I'm all for increasing), then perhaps the conversation should also be about about using that musical funding to best serve the students of that community.  You want to use music funding to buy cellos and violins and teach them to play Bach and Vivaldi?  Is teaching them orchestra and traditional marching band the best use of music funding for a student body that is predominantly black?

BTW, it was you that specifically mentioned blacks when you said, "Why not? Black kids aren't as talented as white kids? Who agrees with that. Or, is it something deeper?" Poor whites wouldn't be included, based on your own statements about "more color" and advocating a non-white orchestra.

[xsanguine]

Okay there's a lot going on in this post. Let me try to succinctly zero in on them:

1. I don't think that the fact that there is a high prevalence of black on black crime tells us anything about the criminalization of blackness that I talked about. Politicians discovered long ago that having an "other" to rally the voting public against was beneficial. As such, with black people, there is a built-in "other" in the U.S. Dog whistle words have changed over the generations, (from law and order, to war on crime, to war on drugs, to blue lives matter) but the strategy is the same, mobilize white voters through fear of the "other" and use that fear to build vast institutions that provide profit (in various forms) to white people at the expense of blacks. I'm sure you'll have thoughts about 13th, and I'd like you to start another thread about it when you watch it (and fact-check it). We can talk more about that then.

If 13th addresses this I'll wait until I watch to comment.

2. Fatherless homes: The percentage of people who have children with the intent of using them to suckle off the government teat is negligible. Further, if there are people who say "I want to get pregnant so that I can get a check from the government." they are probably sociopaths. Although the quotes you provide specifically say that "Of course women do not get pregnant just to get welfare benefits." it then goes on to explain why they do just that. In my opinion, even the dumbest, most uneducated person on the planet knows that life is harder when you have to raise kids than it is when you don't.

But I'll throw you a bone. The idea that the examples that a young woman has in her life, including those of peers and mentors who have children with no father around can have an effect on what she sees as acceptable and her behavior. In general, I think that contraceptives and birth control should be handed out in schools, on the streets and wherever kids congregate. That's not a race thing, that's a common sense thing. I also think the stigma of BC should be eliminated. Bottom line for me, it's easier to be poor and child-free than poor with a bunch of rugrats, even with your gubment check.

So what would you point to as the cause of this explosion in fatherless homes beginning in the mid 60's after declining steadily since abolition?

One more bone for you: Is is possible that some agreement to expansion of welfare programs on the right was considered to have the additional benefit of neutering black power movements? I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

Sure. I don't see why that couldn't be the case.

[Rocinante]

So what would you point to as the cause of this explosion in fatherless homes beginning in the mid 60's after declining steadily since abolition?

I would say that the drug war, lopsided sentences for non-white criminals (mandatory minimums, etc.), white flight and the drain of employment, public funding for education and community enrichment that went with it are all tied up in the answer to this question.

I would also be willing to concede the point that some welfare policies don't help, but I think it's much more complicated than that.

[DWags]

Miami, like my example of the wrestling, soccer, hockey, lacrosse, if there isn't funding for those sports in the areas they are now, there will not be those kids entering into college mastering those sports. When I said, "we need more color" in bands like that, I certainly don't mean it in the sense that if it's not there it will kill america, i'ts kind of like seeing a third and 12 pass complete for a first and saying "Now that's what we need", not like if we had to punt the game will be over.

Don't know what you guys do for a living, but man, the struggle in some cities is very real at the public school level. It's been so bad from lack of funding, corruption, and mismanagement that a lot of city kids go without a ton of shit. Late this fall they did stories about classrooms in Detroit. 45-50 kids, sitting on milk crates, sharing books. I won't blame the kids for that. I can blame adults. From Adminstrators who were criminals, to greedy teachers unions, to just incompetence. But there is one group who suffers when that happens. Yearly.

Public schools are fucked up as it is, I just get bummed out when I see some districts are (were?? I've been out of the admin game for a while)

Let me turn a corner here. Just to, first agree with you, African Americans have brought a richness to music in America maybe not comparable to anything a culture has done in any other capacity. Every aspect of music we listen to has an influence by the culture. So..... here's my question for speculation. (for now, I'll also agree with you that I'm wrong about funding and city schools don't need anymore for "music") O.K., why don't we see those great halftime routines at MSU or UofM? Why is our halftime shit so fucking boring and.... em..... white? What's the reason we don't do one or two home shows a year what Grambling or Howard does? Is there one? You think our drum corp is good? I'd compare others around the country that are better. Just a question, and I've taken the funding out of it, do you maybe think that African American musicians have not made certain teams because perhaps the band director and assistants are looking for a boring star wars playing trombone player? Just asking. Are people in positions of great power in bands accross our country, not choosing white kids, but choosing those people with great experience at playing the white boring straight line marching music? And, if they are, is that as bad as the orchestra lady who only wants people of color. I've left funding out, if you want we can do that too, but just for now, do you think anything I've asked is maybe possible?

I might be full of shit here, I usually am, I'm just asking if you think there is a possibility.

For those who want to talk equitible funding, I'm very open still. It was almost criminal to see some districts that were "held harmless" when per pupil spending was going to be even accross the board, but the wealthy said "wait aminute". We're in a high rent high business tax base here. I was in one of those hold harmless districts when Headly came about in the early 90's.

[MiamiSpartan]

Miami, like my example of the wrestling, soccer, hockey, lacrosse, if there isn't funding for those sports in the areas they are now, there will not be those kids entering into college mastering those sports. When I said, "we need more color" in bands like that, I certainly don't mean it in the sense that if it's not there it will kill america, i'ts kind of like seeing a third and 12 pass complete for a first and saying "Now that's what we need", not like if we had to punt the game will be over.

Don't know what you guys do for a living, but man, the struggle in some cities is very real at the public school level. It's been so bad from lack of funding, corruption, and mismanagement that a lot of city kids go without a ton of shit. Late this fall they did stories about classrooms in Detroit. 45-50 kids, sitting on milk crates, sharing books. I won't blame the kids for that. I can blame adults. From Adminstrators who were criminals, to greedy teachers unions, to just incompetence. But there is one group who suffers when that happens. Yearly.

Public schools are fucked up as it is, I just get bummed out when I see some districts are (were?? I've been out of the admin game for a while)

Let me turn a corner here. Just to, first agree with you, African Americans have brought a richness to music in America maybe not comparable to anything a culture has done in any other capacity. Every aspect of music we listen to has an influence by the culture. So..... here's my question for speculation. (for now, I'll also agree with you that I'm wrong about funding and city schools don't need anymore for "music") O.K., why don't we see those great halftime routines at MSU or UofM? Why is our halftime shit so fucking boring and.... em..... white? What's the reason we don't do one or two home shows a year what Grambling or Howard does? Is there one? You think our drum corp is good? I'd compare others around the country that are better. Just a question, and I've taken the funding out of it, do you maybe think that African American musicians have not made certain teams because perhaps the band director and assistants are looking for a boring star wars playing trombone player? Just asking. Are people in positions of great power in bands accross our country, not choosing white kids, but choosing those people with great experience at playing the white boring straight line marching music? And, if they are, is that as bad as the orchestra lady who only wants people of color. I've left funding out, if you want we can do that too, but just for now, do you think anything I've asked is maybe possible?

I might be full of shit here, I usually am, I'm just asking if you think there is a possibility.

For those who want to talk equitible funding, I'm very open still. It was almost criminal to see some districts that were "held harmless" when per pupil spending was going to be even accross the board, but the wealthy said "wait aminute". We're in a high rent high business tax base here. I was in one of those hold harmless districts when Headly came about in the early 90's.

Ok, I first have to address the part I bolded, because you're better than that, Dwags. Come on, man, how can you sit there and say that it would be agreeing with me that funding isn't needed? TWICE in my last post I said that more funding is needed for the arts. TWICE.

You still keep doubling down on saying that we need more blacks in marching bands and orchestras, but you haven't said why? I get that you kind of mean "want" more than "need", but still, why are more needed in THOSE musical disciplines? Or, perhaps another way to look at it, WHO wants/needs more blacks in those musical disciplines? Do blacks want it? Or do you want it? Sounds like more of the latter.

As to the question that you've posed. Of course it's possible that black musicians have been turned down for bands because they wanted some boring star wars playing trombone player. Is that different than an orchestra lady only wanting people of color? I don't know, it depends. You're comparing a generality with countless variables to a specific case. If a band director wants some boring star wars playing trombone player, and chooses a white boring star wars playing trombone player over a better black boring star wars playing trombone player, then that's terrible (and I'm sure that's happened before, and it's never acceptable). However, if the band director wanted a boring star wars playing trombone player, but there were no blacks that wanted the position and/or a white boring star wars playing trombone player was better, then that's fine.

But when it comes to the non-white orchestra, the article states, "She decided to form an orchestra of her own. She had just two criteria. One, the musicians would be have to be world class. And two, none of them could be white." Now, if the orchestra was about playing music that was heavily black-influenced, maybe there's a case for their cultural roots helping. But it isn't. They're playing something from a 19th Century Czech composer. So people were not even allowed to try out based on their race. HOWEVER, let me say, and I really hope you read this before claiming that I said something else, I honestly don't have a problem with this non-white orchestra. She started her own orchestra. It doesn't appear to be public/government funded. She has a right to put whoever she wants in it, even if her criteria is racist.

As for why we don't see shows like FAMU's band does at MSU? What's the ethnic makeup of a typical MSU football game crowd? And within that, how many people under 65 (or band members' families) give much of a crap about the band? A band is there to entertain, right? So they should play to what their audience wants. There's a different audience at and MSU game, than at a Grambling or Florida A&M game.

[xsanguine]

Dwags is a sneaky little fucker....

I have to rep him for that.

[DWags]

Why don't we have more?  One of us has to answer first?   "Want"?   Why don't we have more?  

I don't think it's different at all.   But we can disagree on this

[quote="But when it comes to the non-white orchestra, the article states, "She decided to form an orchestra of her own. She had just two criteria. One, the musicians would be have to be world class. And two, none of them could be white." Now, if the orchestra was about playing music that was heavily black-influenced, maybe there's a case for their cultural roots helping. But it isn't. They're playing something from a 19th Century Czech composer."][/quote]

Here's where we will disagree.  I think that most people at MSU home games hate that show except band members families.  I think a shit tone more would enjoy a better show.  And I'm not disparaging the talent those kids have out there.   I think power remains in the few peoples hands that make decisions that effect make up and content of bands.  i can be persuaded with many of your arguments, but I think that there is no way that the majority of people like those shows as they are.   White or black.  Do we enjoy the talent out there?  Hell yeah, but the show?  em, I'm getting a hot dog and taking a leak. Maybe the students do now, but I'm gonna guess maybe they don't.

[xsanguine]

I can't be bothered with horns and cumberbunds when I came to watch bulls chase a ball around while trying to hurt each other.

Maybe if Aerosmith circa 1977 were playing. Beyond that I need that time to go get more mixer from the concessions.

[Cameron]

http://thepoliticalinsider.com/michelle-obama-outfit-vacations-tuscany/?source=stream

There were plenty of legitimate criticisms to be made of the Obama administration that had nothing to do with racism. But the shit Michelle takes, even now, I can't see as anything else. The comment section is littered with people who's facebook accounts are linked to their comments, and I'm astounded by the things they're willing sign their name to. Some people have no shame, I guess.

[MiamiSpartan]

Why don't we have more?  One of us has to answer first?   "Want"?   Why don't we have more?

I'd say it's because orchestras and traditional marching bands are white European music, and it doesn't appeal to blacks as much. Blacks have different cultural ties. There aren't as many whites that play R&B, sing gospel, etc. It seems natural to me that people would be more drawn to their cultural/historic ties to certain types of music. You seem to want to say that there aren't more blacks in orchestra and marching bands because they've been underfunded in schools. But that doesn't fit with the black marching bands that I've discussed. Why is it hard for you to accept the idea that maybe blacks just aren't that into the white European music? Instead, you seem intent on shoving it down their throat. Why does funding need to go toward orchestra and band, as opposed to other types of music and other ways of teaching it?

I don't think it's different at all.   But we can disagree on this

[quote="But when it comes to the non-white orchestra, the article states, "She decided to form an orchestra of her own. She had just two criteria. One, the musicians would be have to be world class. And two, none of them could be white." Now, if the orchestra was about playing music that was heavily black-influenced, maybe there's a case for their cultural roots helping. But it isn't. They're playing something from a 19th Century Czech composer."]

[/quote]
Doesn't that just support my point? The Wiz had different music. The non-white orchestra is playing the same music as a white orchestra plays.

I also like how you conveniently left out the part when you quoted me where I said that I have no problem with the non-white orchestra, as it's her choice to pick who she wants.

Here's where we will disagree.  I think that most people at MSU home games hate that show except band members families.  I think a shit tone more would enjoy a better show.  And I'm not disparaging the talent those kids have out there.   I think power remains in the few peoples hands that make decisions that effect make up and content of bands.  i can be persuaded with many of your arguments, but I think that there is no way that the majority of people like those shows as they are.   White or black.  Do we enjoy the talent out there?  Hell yeah, but the show?  em, I'm getting a hot dog and taking a leak. Maybe the students do now, but I'm gonna guess maybe they don't.

You are having trouble reading today, aren't you? I said (or at least obviously implied) that practically no one under 65 gives a crap about the band. I did not say that everyone enjoys it. Most just don't care. I'm not sure why you keep twisting/changing what I'm saying.

I'm also not disagreeing that the band director wants that kind of music. And the people that hire him. It's not just MSU, but every historically majority white college, because that's the history/culture of a marching band. It's not racism, it's just a different culture. Giving kids in poor, primarily black, grade schools cellos, violins, and tubas, is not going to change that. Not as long as you keep teaching them to play white European music with white European instruments.

[xsanguine]

Miami, you got patience. I also suspect you're being trolled.

[DWags]

totally agree with this. And it's a shame.

Disagree with this. Add a teacher, pay for it and watch.

[xsanguine]

You pay for it. You're the one that wants it to happen so bad ya big goof.

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