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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-16, 09:31

What the fuck eh? Look, I can see how someone would want those taken down. I mean, I don't really give a shit about statues in Virginia or Florida or North Carolina (more on this later) but I can get why it would bother people. I don't get why someone would really give a shit if they stay up, other than the obvious ulterior motives that most of them have.The "it's preserving history" line is total bullshit as unless all written history of events are recorded on that statue, it's simply not true. I do not get how someone in Michigan or Ohio could take vehement stance regarding preserving statues in the south. That's gotta just be pure racism or fox brainwashing. No other reason to give a shit about about statues that you will never see in person and didn't know existed until someone told you it might go away.

Anyway that's a random collection of thoughts on statues. Please share your own thoughts on statues since that is apparently something the whole country needs to weigh in on now.
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-16, 09:43

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Post by DWags on 2017-08-16, 10:18

This better not fuck up our plans for a 600 ft Sparty statue. That's all I care about. And, to be sure, the Spartans used to throw babies born with maladies on the side of a hill to let them die. But our Sparty only represents the need to crush the spirit of all athletic foes and to bring us soft non athletic drunks the glory we deserve.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-16, 11:55

A really good article that points out the mistakes of the "slippery slope" and historical arguments that justify keeping the statues up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/15/why-slippery-slope-arguments-should-not-stop-us-from-removing-confederate-monuments/?utm_term=.553c1b520ec6

With that said, I will make one point that justifies keeping them up. If they come down but that history is not preserved elsewhere, such as in a museum, I would prefer they stay up. Taking them down and not preserving that history is dangerous. It allows us to forget the mistakes of the past, and thus facilitates a certain laziness about always working to improve the society we live in.

---------------------------------- Below is my sarcastic response --------------------------------

These statues are like participation trophies. You know, the trophies you get when you lose but people feel like you deserve something anyway. We do not memorialize losers in this country. We are a country of winners. Heros do not get caught, and losers do not get statues.
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Post by Cameron on 2017-08-17, 00:41

It's unfathomable to me that we allow statues of Confederate figures on American soil. Robert E. Lee was a traitor and a piece of shit human being. We don't have statues of Benedict Arnold, Confederates are no better.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2017-08-17, 01:24

Turtleneck wrote:A really good article that points out the mistakes of the "slippery slope" and historical arguments that justify keeping the statues up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/15/why-slippery-slope-arguments-should-not-stop-us-from-removing-confederate-monuments/?utm_term=.553c1b520ec6

With that said, I will make one point that justifies keeping them up. If they come down but that history is not preserved elsewhere, such as in a museum, I would prefer they stay up. Taking them down and not preserving that history is dangerous. It allows us to forget the mistakes of the past, and thus facilitates a certain laziness about always working to improve the society we live in.

---------------------------------- Below is my sarcastic response --------------------------------

These statues are like participation trophies. You know, the trophies you get when you lose but people feel like you deserve something anyway. We do not memorialize losers in this country. We are a country of winners. Heros do not get caught, and losers do not get statues.

This is my take, too. These statues belong in museums because they are a part of our history. But yeah, if the alternative to putting these pieces in museums is trashing them, then leave them where they are... for now... and keep working to find them homes elsewhere.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-17, 01:42

What if museums already pretty solidly cover that period of history? And other sources of information? Which they do already do. I don't feel deprived of civil war knowledge from the confederate perspective even though I've never seen one of these statues (other than Custers in Monroe which isn't really related.)

I don't think a statue is a beacon of historical knowledge the way people like to present it as. I do think it's a beacon for the culture of the city however. And if the beacon of culture is a statue that is presenting itself as a racist piece of shit that rebelled against a unified United States... well...
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Post by Cameron on 2017-08-17, 02:05

tGreenWay wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:A really good article that points out the mistakes of the "slippery slope" and historical arguments that justify keeping the statues up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/15/why-slippery-slope-arguments-should-not-stop-us-from-removing-confederate-monuments/?utm_term=.553c1b520ec6

With that said, I will make one point that justifies keeping them up. If they come down but that history is not preserved elsewhere, such as in a museum, I would prefer they stay up. Taking them down and not preserving that history is dangerous. It allows us to forget the mistakes of the past, and thus facilitates a certain laziness about always working to improve the society we live in.

---------------------------------- Below is my sarcastic response --------------------------------

These statues are like participation trophies. You know, the trophies you get when you lose but people feel like you deserve something anyway. We do not memorialize losers in this country. We are a country of winners. Heros do not get caught, and losers do not get statues.

This is my take, too. These statues belong in museums because they are a part of our history. But yeah, if the alternative to putting these pieces in museums is trashing them, then leave them where they are... for now... and keep working to find them homes elsewhere.

They ought not to stand in public spaces. If there are no welcoming homes for them, a dumpster will suffice.
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-17, 09:46

The Twitter President:

"Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments," he said in a series of tweets.

"You........can't change history, but you can learn from it. Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson - who's next, Washington, Jefferson? So foolish! Also......the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed and never able to be comparably replaced!"

Fuck it- statues 502811600
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2017-08-17, 09:52

it's fun to see our Snowflake in Chief whine about pro-slavery participation trophies being removed.

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Post by Other Teams Pursuing That on 2017-08-17, 09:56

Did my post get deleted like these statues are?
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Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-08-17, 10:09

We have a President who asked "Why was there a Civil War". He asked that during an interview with The Washington Examiner's Salina Zito in April '17

The statues are small potatoes in the big scheme with a leader whose historical knowledge is deficient.

From the link: (talking about Andrew Jackson)

"I mean, had Andrew Jackson been a little later, you wouldn’t have had the Civil War. He was a very tough person, but he had a big heart. He was really angry that he saw what was happening with regard to the Civil War. He said, “There’s no reason for this.” People don’t realize, you know, the Civil War — if you think about it, why? People don’t ask that question, but why was there a Civil War? Why could that one not have been worked out?
"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/05/01/president-trump-really-asked-why-there-was-a-civil-war-heres-why/?utm_term=.9d108d3841e4
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-17, 10:25

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Did my post get deleted like these statues are?

Your statue post is in the Goose thread.


Last edited by Turtleneck on 2017-08-17, 10:46; edited 1 time in total
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Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-08-17, 10:33

Statues are code for white supremacists just like "our Southern heritage" and "states rights".

I can't think of any other country in the world where leaders and commanders that led an armed rebellion of succession that killed over 600,000 of their country's soldiers are memorialized.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2017-08-17, 10:35

GRR Spartan wrote:Statues are code for white supremacists just like "our Southern heritage" and "states rights".

I can't think of any other country in the world where leaders and commanders that led an armed rebellion of succession that killed over 600,000 of their country's soldiers are memorialized.
I'm not certain that any other country in the world elects a white supremacist president.

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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-17, 10:42

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Statues are code for white supremacists just like "our Southern heritage" and "states rights".

I can't think of any other country in the world where leaders and commanders that led an armed rebellion of succession that killed over 600,000 of their country's soldiers are memorialized.
I'm not certain that any other country in the world elects a white supremacist president.


But think of the "culture"!!!
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Post by Rocinante on 2017-08-17, 11:12

I agree with Cameron. Melt them all down into one big blob of iron horse parts and rename it the memorial to racism. It should live in Alabama or Mississippi


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Post by Rocinante on 2017-08-17, 11:14

Most of these monuments are Jim Crow era attempts to reframe the war. They are the definition of symbols of oppression just like the confederate flag is. It's embarrassing it's taken this long.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2017-08-17, 11:20

what's particularly entertaining is that the sexual predator is unabashedly playing to his racist, knuckle-dragging base with his whining about how great slavery was and how it should be memorialized.
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Post by GRR Spartan on 2017-08-17, 12:06

The "Heritage" arguments by some are outright lies unless they own up to being white supremacists.

My first job out of MSU in the early 80's was working chemical sales in oil refineries in OK.

Was going to the refinery's onsite lab run some tests and one of the lab techs drove up in his truck with new large Confederate flags painted on both doors.

I asked what were the flags about and he told me it was about his heritage. I saw him every week and spent hours in the lab myself so we knew about eachother and he was a very proud Okie.

So I asked him what was the Confederate connection? OK was a territory until 1907 and he told me his mother's family came from Scotland to PA in the 1890's and his father's side were from IN. Somewhere in IN they had gotten on the wrong side of the law and were part of the original Sooners.

He had zero Southern heritage connection. The only blacks I ever heard him speak highly of played football for OU in Norman
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-17, 13:54

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Post by Other Teams Pursuing That on 2017-08-17, 14:03

How do they know? Were they there? Fuck it- statues 502811600

This is the president. Intelligence is out, stupidity is in.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2017-08-17, 15:04

I kinda like the idea of calling them fuck it statues.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-17, 15:04

tGreenWay wrote:I kinda like the idea of calling them fuck it statues.

Have you? You know...done it with a statue?
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Post by tGreenWay on 2017-08-17, 15:40

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:What if museums already pretty solidly cover that period of history? And other sources of information? Which they do already do. I don't feel deprived of civil war knowledge from the confederate perspective even though I've never seen one of these statues (other than Custers in Monroe which isn't really related.)

I don't think a statue is a beacon of historical knowledge the way people like to present it as. I do think it's a beacon for the culture of the city however. And if the beacon of culture is a statue that is presenting itself as a racist piece of shit that rebelled against a unified United States... well...

How do I know? I was just looking for someplace to stick the existing statues short of sending them to the foundry. Do I look like I have all the answers? Have any of my thousands of posts ever even once sparked a thought in your head that I've been enlightened and must be consulted? I didn't think so. Stop asking me hard questions, damnit.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-17, 15:42

tGreenWay wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:What if museums already pretty solidly cover that period of history? And other sources of information? Which they do already do. I don't feel deprived of civil war knowledge from the confederate perspective even though I've never seen one of these statues (other than Custers in Monroe which isn't really related.)

I don't think a statue is a beacon of historical knowledge the way people like to present it as. I do think it's a beacon for the culture of the city however. And if the beacon of culture is a statue that is presenting itself as a racist piece of shit that rebelled against a unified United States... well...

How do I know? I was just looking for someplace to stick the existing statues short of sending them to the foundry. Do I look like I have all the answers? Have any of my thousands of posts ever even once sparked a thought in your head that I've been enlightened and must be consulted? I didn't think so. Stop asking me hard questions, damnit.

Shut up
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2017-08-17, 15:47

in honor of this thread, I say we need an actual "fuck it" statue..

I nominate this one:

Fuck it- statues Odd-statue-Norway
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-17, 16:16

Is that at Lake Lansing?
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2017-08-17, 16:35

Turtleneck wrote:Is that at Lake Lansing?
close - it's the Mio town square... right across from Bonnie's Nip-n-Sip.



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Post by tGreenWay on 2017-08-17, 17:31

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

How do I know? I was just looking for someplace to stick the existing statues short of sending them to the foundry. Do I look like I have all the answers? Have any of my thousands of posts ever even once sparked a thought in your head that I've been enlightened and must be consulted? I didn't think so. Stop asking me hard questions, damnit.

Shut up

Okay.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-17, 20:35

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:What the fuck eh? Look, I can see how someone would want those taken down. I mean, I don't really give a shit about statues in Virginia or Florida or North Carolina (more on this later) but I can get why it would bother people. I don't get why someone would really give a shit if they stay up, other than the obvious ulterior motives that most of them have.The "it's preserving history" line is total bullshit as unless all written history of events are recorded on that statue, it's simply not true. I do not get how someone in Michigan or Ohio could take vehement stance regarding preserving statues in the south. That's gotta just be pure racism or fox brainwashing. No other reason to give a shit about about statues that you will never see in person and didn't know existed until someone told you it might go away.

Anyway that's a random collection of thoughts on statues. Please share your own thoughts on statues since that is apparently something the whole country needs to weigh in on now.

I think it's a great idea. Tear them all down. Clean them out of the Capitol. Erase Stone Mountain. Erase Mount Rushmore. Tear down the Stalin Statue in Seattle. Close the Jefferson Memorial, not only a slave owner but a serial rapist. Close the Washington Monument. Tear both of them down. Get rid of All Andrew Jackson stuff, he was a racist and a slave owner. Then we need to start with the founding Fathers and explorers, most of them cheated and mistreated Native Americans. We need to cleanse our history of these people. There is no line to draw since the party on the wrong side of the line will be wronged. I'm completely onboard with this sanitation.....I wish it had started long ago.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-17, 20:38

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:Is that at Lake Lansing?
close - it's the Mio town square... right across from Bonnie's Nip-n-Sip.




Fuck that. Why would we want your symbols of oppression?
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-17, 20:59

LooseGoose wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:What the fuck eh? Look, I can see how someone would want those taken down. I mean, I don't really give a shit about statues in Virginia or Florida or North Carolina (more on this later) but I can get why it would bother people. I don't get why someone would really give a shit if they stay up, other than the obvious ulterior motives that most of them have.The "it's preserving history" line is total bullshit as unless all written history of events are recorded on that statue, it's simply not true. I do not get how someone in Michigan or Ohio could take vehement stance regarding preserving statues in the south. That's gotta just be pure racism or fox brainwashing. No other reason to give a shit about about statues that you will never see in person and didn't know existed until someone told you it might go away.

Anyway that's a random collection of thoughts on statues. Please share your own thoughts on statues since that is apparently something the whole country needs to weigh in on now.

I think it's a great idea. Tear them all down. Clean them out of the Capitol. Erase Stone Mountain. Erase Mount Rushmore. Tear down the Stalin Statue in Seattle. Close the Jefferson Memorial, not only a slave owner but a serial rapist. Close the Washington Monument. Tear both of them down. Get rid of All Andrew Jackson stuff, he was a racist and a slave owner. Then we need to start with the founding Fathers and explorers, most of them cheated and mistreated Native Americans. We need to cleanse our history of these people. There is no line to draw since the party on the wrong side of the line will be wronged. I'm completely onboard with this sanitation.....I wish it had started long ago.

Fuck it- statues 4113017228 You're trying too hard.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-17, 21:48

LooseGoose wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:What the fuck eh? Look, I can see how someone would want those taken down. I mean, I don't really give a shit about statues in Virginia or Florida or North Carolina (more on this later) but I can get why it would bother people. I don't get why someone would really give a shit if they stay up, other than the obvious ulterior motives that most of them have.The "it's preserving history" line is total bullshit as unless all written history of events are recorded on that statue, it's simply not true. I do not get how someone in Michigan or Ohio could take vehement stance regarding preserving statues in the south. That's gotta just be pure racism or fox brainwashing. No other reason to give a shit about about statues that you will never see in person and didn't know existed until someone told you it might go away.

Anyway that's a random collection of thoughts on statues. Please share your own thoughts on statues since that is apparently something the whole country needs to weigh in on now.

I think it's a great idea. Tear them all down. Clean them out of the Capitol. Erase Stone Mountain. Erase Mount Rushmore. Tear down the Stalin Statue in Seattle. Close the Jefferson Memorial, not only a slave owner but a serial rapist. Close the Washington Monument. Tear both of them down. Get rid of All Andrew Jackson stuff, he was a racist and a slave owner. Then we need to start with the founding Fathers and explorers, most of them cheated and mistreated Native Americans. We need to cleanse our history of these people. There is no line to draw since the party on the wrong side of the line will be wronged. I'm completely onboard with this sanitation.....I wish it had started long ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/15/why-slippery-slope-arguments-should-not-stop-us-from-removing-confederate-monuments/?utm_term=.553c1b520ec6
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-17, 22:17

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

I think it's a great idea.   Tear them all down.  Clean them out of the Capitol.  Erase Stone Mountain.  Erase Mount Rushmore.   Tear down the Stalin Statue in Seattle.   Close the Jefferson Memorial, not only a slave owner but a serial rapist.  Close the Washington Monument.   Tear both of them down.   Get rid of All Andrew Jackson stuff, he was a racist and a slave owner.  Then we need to start with the founding Fathers and explorers, most of them cheated and mistreated Native Americans.   We need to cleanse our history of these people.   There is no line to draw since the party on the wrong side of the line will be wronged.   I'm completely onboard with this sanitation.....I wish it had started long ago.

Fuck it- statues 4113017228  You're trying too hard.

Yeah he laid it on too thick there
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-17, 22:21

It was a pretty sarcastic post. He might have screwed up a pie. Loose, GreenWay will take the pie anyway. He will eat anything. Hurry up and you might catch him before he goes to dinner.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-17, 23:11

Not sarcastic at all. I want them all torn down rather than a rolling 20 year fight. I know how it plays out. I 've seen this show before. What I want to get to is the next act. What will it be? Already there are calls to narrow the 1st amendment. The ACLU is backing off its unrestricted fight in favor of free speech. I want to see the next target.

You who say it's too thick. Are you going to defend the rapist Jefferson? The slave owner and seller Washington? If so, why?
Tel! Me about your moral line?
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Post by DWags on 2017-08-17, 23:20

LooseGoose wrote:Not sarcastic at all. I want them all torn down rather than a rolling 20 year fight. I know how it plays out. I 've seen this show before. What I want to get to is the next act. What will it be? Already there are calls to narrow the 1st amendment. The ACLU is backing off its unrestricted fight in favor of free speech. I want to see the next target.

You who say it's too thick. Are you going to defend the rapist Jefferson? The slave owner and seller Washington? If so, why?
Tel! Me about your moral line?

First Washington and Jefferson didn't commit crimes against the constitution. The rape case would be hard to prove too. Moral crimes? Sure. But these guys committed treason. And taking down statues doesn't take away history or heritage.

I'm not on the side of taking them down I guess but I'm tired of an argument that says if we take them down we wipe out history.
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Fuck it- statues Empty Re: Fuck it- statues

Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-17, 23:34

LooseGoose wrote:Already there are calls to narrow the 1st amendment.

Yes, we have heard the president say on multiple occasions the press has too much freedom, and we know his history of suing or threatening to sue people for saying mean things about him. Remember when candidate Trump threatened to sue Ted Cruz? It was after the Cruz campaign did nothing more than run an ad with a clip of Trump talking about being pro-choice? Classic Trump. That was when you hated Trump and constantly reminded SD32312 that Trump was a corrupt racist.

LooseGoose wrote:The ACLU is backing off its unrestricted fight in favor of free speech.

Because three chapters in California said when you "march into our towns armed to the teeth and with the intent to harm people" your speech is not protected by the Constitution? Well, that is true. When your speech is accompanied by a willingness to do violence, it is not protected.

LooseGoose wrote:Are you going to defend the rapist Jefferson?  The slave owner and seller Washington?
 

These are not logical arguments. The Washington Post piece does a good job of explaining why. You are a college educated person. If you cannot make logical and sensible arguments, then just shut the fuck up. For real. It's a lazy argument advanced by people with heads full of pea gravel. Don't be a person with a head full of pea gravel. Be a person with a functional brain inside their head.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 00:31

Ok. Then take my $$. I will wager you that this does not end with CSA veterans.

One more question for the bin so I can get On the right side of history. Do we people more based on their ideology of their actions? Which do we hate most the racist that kills 1 based on their face or the socialist that kills 7 just because they can? Or do we hate them the same?
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