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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 00:35

And the opinion piece in the WaPo did nothing to convince my pea gravel head when I read it earlier. Frankly I found it full of shit and wishes

There have been many slippery slopes, I think the 1st amendment issue is another. I don't think the statue issue is a slippery slope, because I think that one is all over but the shouting. Just a matter of time.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-18, 00:37

LooseGoose wrote:Ok. Then take my $$. I will wager you that this does not end with CSA veterans.

One more question for the bin so I can get On the right side of history. Do we people more based on their ideology of their actions? Which do we hate most the racist that kills 1 based on their face or the socialist that kills 7 just because they can? Or do we hate them the same?

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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-18, 00:39

LooseGoose wrote:And the opinion piece in the WaPo did nothing to convince my pea gravel head when I read it earlier. Frankly I found it full of shit and wishes

There have been many slippery slopes, I think the 1st amendment issue is another. I don't think the statue issue is a slippery slope, because I think that one is all over but the shouting. Just a matter of time.

I imagine it was either too complex for you (even though it was simple reading), or it made too much sense but did not reaffirm what you need to believe. I am going with the latter.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-18, 01:57

I know we've already probably said it but I'm going to restate that a statue in the center of a town has nothing to do with the preservation of history whatsoever in any way shape or form. I know that that's the white nationalist taking point and thus Fox News' talking point and thus hotair.gif.livejournal.blogspot's talking point, but that just doesn't make it true. Otherwise no one would even remember the black soldiers that fought for the union in the south. They'd be lost without a statue. Or really any number of other things that don't have statues. There are plenty. We could go on with examples but we're not gonna cause we'll just be met with talking points that were saw on imaconservativetellmewhattothink.wordpress.gov
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Post by tGreenWay on 2017-08-18, 02:23

Helena, Montana, will soon be removing its Confederate fountain. Such a loss of history and culture for Montana, which didn't even become a state until ~25 years after the Civil War ended. Fuck it- statues - Page 2 502811600
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-18, 07:52

LooseGoose wrote:Ok. Then take my $$. I will wager you that this does not end with CSA veterans.


So, you think the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial will be demolished?

Want to set up a time frame for the bet? I mean...how long do you think it's going to take?

Is this one of those 'we shouldn't take you literally' things? Kind of like your guy Trump?

There's a little edge right when you get near the deep end. I think you may have slipped.
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-18, 08:12

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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 08:57

Perhaps I missed where Roger Taney committed "crimes against the Constitution" or where he quit the Supreme Court to fight for the confederacy? Maybe one of you know it alls could explain to me that this isn't on the slope? The removal of a statue because of a Court decision made in the 1850s?

Maryland removes Dred Scott ruling author’s statue

Annapolis, Md. — A statue of the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that upheld slavery and denied citizenship to African Americans was removed from the grounds of the Maryland State House early Friday.

The statue of Roger B. Taney was lifted away by a crane at about 2 a.m. It was lowered into a truck and driven away to storage.

The bronze statue was erected in 1872, just outside the original front door of the State House.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 08:59

Turtleneck wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:And the opinion piece in the WaPo did nothing to convince my pea gravel head when I read it earlier. Frankly I found it full of shit and wishes

There have been many slippery slopes, I think the 1st amendment issue is another. I don't think the statue issue is a slippery slope, because I think that one is all over but the shouting. Just a matter of time.

I imagine it was either too complex for you (even though it was simple reading), or it made too much sense but did not reaffirm what you need to believe. I am going with the latter.

I'm sorry that I'm too stupid to read something from the Volokh Conspiracy.....which I've been reading for years when he was "just a blogger"....tell me more about no slopes in light of the Taney statue?
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 09:01

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Ok. Then take my $$.   I will wager you that this does not end with CSA veterans.  


So, you think the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial will be demolished?  

Want to set up a time frame for the bet?  I mean...how long do you think it's going to take?

Is this one of those 'we shouldn't take you literally' things?  Kind of like your guy Trump?  

There's a little edge right when you get near the deep end.  I think you may have slipped.

You quoted the bolded part that I was willing to bet on.   As usual you quote then distort.

You already lost with the Taney statue since he was never part of CSA.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-18, 09:02

LooseGoose wrote:Perhaps I missed where Roger Taney committed "crimes against the Constitution" or where he quit the Supreme Court to fight for the confederacy?    Maybe one of you know it alls could explain to me that this isn't on the slope?   The removal of a statue because of a Court decision made in the 1850s?

Maryland removes Dred Scott ruling author’s statue

Annapolis, Md. — A statue of the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that upheld slavery and denied citizenship to African Americans was removed from the grounds of the Maryland State House early Friday.

The statue of Roger B. Taney was lifted away by a crane at about 2 a.m. It was lowered into a truck and driven away to storage.

The bronze statue was erected in 1872, just outside the original front door of the State House.


Feel free to PM so I can explain to you why I am a know it all.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 09:04

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I know we've already probably said it but I'm going to restate that a statue in the center of a town has nothing to do with the preservation of history whatsoever in any way shape or form. I know that that's the white nationalist taking point and thus Fox News' talking point and thus hotair.gif.livejournal.blogspot's talking point, but that just doesn't make it true. Otherwise no one would even remember the black soldiers that fought for the union in the south. They'd be lost without a statue. Or really any number of other things that don't have statues. There are plenty. We could go on with examples but we're not gonna cause we'll just be met with talking points that were saw on imaconservativetellmewhattothink.wordpress.gov

I'll print my browser history. I've not been to any white nationalist site EVER and haven't been to Fox news other than my "hot for teacher" post in perhaps a week or three? So keep thinking parroting talking points when I'm typing what *I* think will happen. The fact that others may agree is coincidental. Sorry if it offends you that more than one person holds the same view.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 09:06

Turtleneck wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Perhaps I missed where Roger Taney committed "crimes against the Constitution" or where he quit the Supreme Court to fight for the confederacy?    Maybe one of you know it alls could explain to me that this isn't on the slope?   The removal of a statue because of a Court decision made in the 1850s?

Maryland removes Dred Scott ruling author’s statue




Feel free to PM so I can explain to you why I am a know it all.

So you don't want to enlighten us publicly why this isn't on the slope? Do you have insider knowledge that Taney secretly fought for the CSA between Court sessions?
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 09:07

Turtleneck wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:One more question for the bin so I can get On the right side of history.  Do we hate people more based on their ideology of their actions?   Which do we hate most the racist that kills 1 based on their face or the socialist that kills 7 just because they can?  Or do we hate them the same?

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I think the question is quite clear.  Got an answer instead of a dodge?

*Sorry the word hate got left out last night. My apologies.


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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-18, 09:08

LooseGoose wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:


Feel free to PM so I can explain to you why I am a know it all.

So you don't want to enlighten us publicly why this isn't on the slope?   Do you have insider knowledge that Taney secretly fought for the CSA between Court sessions?

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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-18, 09:20

LooseGoose wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I know we've already probably said it but I'm going to restate that a statue in the center of a town has nothing to do with the preservation of history whatsoever in any way shape or form. I know that that's the white nationalist taking point and thus Fox News' talking point and thus hotair.gif.livejournal.blogspot's talking point, but that just doesn't make it true. Otherwise no one would even remember the black soldiers that fought for the union in the south. They'd be lost without a statue. Or really any number of other things that don't have statues. There are plenty. We could go on with examples but we're not gonna cause we'll just be met with talking points that were saw on imaconservativetellmewhattothink.wordpress.gov

I'll print my browser history. I've not been to any white nationalist site EVER and haven't been to Fox news other than my "hot for teacher" post in perhaps a week or three? So keep thinking parroting talking points when I'm typing what *I* think will happen. The fact that others may agree is coincidental. Sorry if it offends you that more than one person holds the same view.

Here's the thing man, you don't need to go to fox to be influenced by fox. That's like saying "oh I never watch fox and friends" but then taking every single thing that the president tweets as gospel. Well, got some news. If all of your sources do read fox and you do go to your sources, well, hate to break the news but you're getting influenced by fox regardless of if you ever go there.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 09:37

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

I'll print my browser history. I've not been to any white nationalist site EVER and haven't been to Fox news other than my "hot for teacher" post in perhaps a week or three? So keep thinking parroting talking points when I'm typing what *I* think will happen. The fact that others may agree is coincidental. Sorry if it offends you that more than one person holds the same view.

Here's the thing man, you don't need to go to fox to be influenced by fox. That's like saying "oh I never watch fox and friends" but then taking every single thing that the president tweets as gospel. Well, got some news. If all of your sources do read fox and you do go to your sources, well, hate to break the news but you're getting influenced by fox regardless of if you ever go there.

Whatever you say. Now will one of you answer on Taney and the slope? So far all of you seem to be "missing" that question in your careful readings of my unoriginal thoughts.

Oh and here's the next quiz - read this EDITORIAL and tell me which President Roc will be disowning next and calling a closet Republican?

Rename or remove Confederate memorials? Start with Army bases like Fort Bragg


And why.....
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-18, 09:54

You'll have to ask the good people of Maryland who had a vote in their state house why they decided to take a statue down. I didn't know it existed until this morning so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the how's and whys of decisions people in Maryland make.
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Post by DWags on 2017-08-18, 10:18

Statue was put up in 1948 to intimidate black veterans and those seeking equal rights.

[The statue] was designed to intimidate African Americans and to reassure white Americans in a moment of rising black power.

Americas shame: why put a statue up to confederate soldiers in 1948 when we just faught hitler and three fourths of the soldiers in Maryland were union.

Oh, and there were three confederate statues to one union.


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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:22

DWags wrote:Statue was put up in 1948 to intimidate black veterans and those seeking equal rights.

[The statue] was designed to intimidate African Americans and to reassure white Americans in a moment of rising black power.

Americas shame:  why put a statue up to confederate soldiers in 1948 when we just caught hitler and three fourths of the soldiers in Maryland were union.

That's today's excuse?   OK..... Yesterday it was "crimes against the Constitution" and serving in the Confederate Army thus a traitor..... Strangely though you're answering a question regarding the Taney statue his name never appears in the HuffPost piece you link as justification.

Today the justification expands....as it will tomorrow again when more come down.    It's marvelous seeing people that would be apoplectic at a book burning seemingly being OK with this erasure/whitewashing of history.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2017-08-18, 10:25

LooseGoose wrote:
DWags wrote:Statue was put up in 1948 to intimidate black veterans and those seeking equal rights.

[The statue] was designed to intimidate African Americans and to reassure white Americans in a moment of rising black power.

Americas shame:  why put a statue up to confederate soldiers in 1948 when we just caught hitler and three fourths of the soldiers in Maryland were union.

That's today's excuse?   OK..... Yesterday it was "crimes against the Constitution" and serving in the Confederate Army thus a traitor....
And today the justification expands....as it will tomorrow again when more come down.    It's marvelous seeing people that would be apoplectic at a book burning seemingly being OK with this erasure/whitewashing of history.

That's simply not what this is. I know that's the talking point. But that's not what a statue is.
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Post by Frank Ricard on 2017-08-18, 10:25

Turtleneck wrote:A really good article that points out the mistakes of the "slippery slope" and historical arguments that justify keeping the statues up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/15/why-slippery-slope-arguments-should-not-stop-us-from-removing-confederate-monuments/?utm_term=.553c1b520ec6

With that said, I will make one point that justifies keeping them up. If they come down but that history is not preserved elsewhere, such as in a museum, I would prefer they stay up. Taking them down and not preserving that history is dangerous. It allows us to forget the mistakes of the past, and thus facilitates a certain laziness about always working to improve the society we live in.

---------------------------------- Below is my sarcastic response --------------------------------

These statues are like participation trophies. You know, the trophies you get when you lose but people feel like you deserve something anyway. We do not memorialize losers in this country. We are a country of winners. Heros do not get caught, and losers do not get statues.

Stick to your sarcastic side.

Look, the only reason the vast majority of the monuments even exists is to remind minorities, especially Blacks, to stay in their place. It's a reminder that whitey is in charge, no matter how the Civil War ended. If we need them to remind our racist history, then put the goddamn things in a museum someplace, not to honor them, but to come to grips with the prejudice they represent.
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Post by InTenSity on 2017-08-18, 10:27

LooseGoose wrote:
DWags wrote:Statue was put up in 1948 to intimidate black veterans and those seeking equal rights.

[The statue] was designed to intimidate African Americans and to reassure white Americans in a moment of rising black power.

Americas shame:  why put a statue up to confederate soldiers in 1948 when we just caught hitler and three fourths of the soldiers in Maryland were union.

That's today's excuse?   OK..... Yesterday it was "crimes against the Constitution" and serving in the Confederate Army thus a traitor..... Strangely though you're answering a question regarding the Taney statue his name never appears in the HuffPost piece you link as justification.

Today the justification expands....as it will tomorrow again when more come down.    It's marvelous seeing people that would be apoplectic at a book burning seemingly being OK with this erasure/whitewashing of history.
Maybe the people made up the names of things. How do you know, where you there? This river ran red with blood, so here is the monument for it. Prior to 1948 nothing really happened.
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-18, 10:27

LooseGoose wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

So, you think the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial will be demolished?  

Want to set up a time frame for the bet?  I mean...how long do you think it's going to take?

Is this one of those 'we shouldn't take you literally' things?  Kind of like your guy Trump?  

There's a little edge right when you get near the deep end.  I think you may have slipped.

You quoted the bolded part that I was willing to bet on.   As usual you quote then distort.

You already lost with the Taney statue since he was never part of CSA.

I'm not distorting shit. You talked about Washington and Jefferson before. Are you going to deny that now?

Do you think the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial will be demolished?

You brought it up. Don't run from it now. Or are you just parroting what Trump said, and are we not to take you literally?

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Post by DWags on 2017-08-18, 10:28

LooseGoose wrote:
DWags wrote:Statue was put up in 1948 to intimidate black veterans and those seeking equal rights.

[The statue] was designed to intimidate African Americans and to reassure white Americans in a moment of rising black power.

Americas shame:  why put a statue up to confederate soldiers in 1948 when we just caught hitler and three fourths of the soldiers in Maryland were union.

That's today's excuse?   OK..... Yesterday it was "crimes against the Constitution" and serving in the Confederate Army thus a traitor..... Strangely though you're answering a question regarding the Taney statue his name never appears in the HuffPost piece you link as justification.

Today the justification expands....as it will tomorrow again when more come down.    It's marvelous seeing people that would be apoplectic at a book burning seemingly being OK with this erasure/whitewashing of history.

So, you're saying there are a billion reasons to take them down. Good. We agree. There are by the way, and You're helping to confirm them.

Excuse? Fuck it- statues - Page 2 502811600 you're summarizing reasons. Thanks.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:29

*Note for Roc and others.

Please prepare your articles flipping control of the Legislatures and Governors chairs in these States when the statues were erected.

Amazing that in the main Dems were in charge when they went up and Reps are in charge as they come down.

And somehow these statues weren't so divisive over the last 8 years......just became the topic du jour when an R is in office.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:30

DWags wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

That's today's excuse?   OK..... Yesterday it was "crimes against the Constitution" and serving in the Confederate Army thus a traitor..... Strangely though you're answering a question regarding the Taney statue his name never appears in the HuffPost piece you link as justification.

Today the justification expands....as it will tomorrow again when more come down.    It's marvelous seeing people that would be apoplectic at a book burning seemingly being OK with this erasure/whitewashing of history.

So, you're saying there are a billion reasons to take them down. Good. We agree. There are by the way, and You're helping to confirm them.

Excuse? Fuck it- statues - Page 2 502811600 you're summarizing reasons. Thanks.

Still avoiding Taney aren't you? Come ride the slope my friend.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:31

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

That's today's excuse?   OK..... Yesterday it was "crimes against the Constitution" and serving in the Confederate Army thus a traitor....
And today the justification expands....as it will tomorrow again when more come down.    It's marvelous seeing people that would be apoplectic at a book burning seemingly being OK with this erasure/whitewashing of history.

That's simply not what this is. I know that's the talking point. But that's not what a statue is.

So your position is that a statue is not erected as a reminder of History?
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-18, 10:31

LooseGoose wrote:
I think it's a great idea.   Tear them all down.  Clean them out of the Capitol.  Erase Stone Mountain.  Erase Mount Rushmore.   Tear down the Stalin Statue in Seattle.   Close the Jefferson Memorial, not only a slave owner but a serial rapist.  Close the Washington Monument.   Tear both of them down.   Get rid of All Andrew Jackson stuff, he was a racist and a slave owner.  Then we need to start with the founding Fathers and explorers, most of them cheated and mistreated Native Americans.   We need to cleanse our history of these people.   There is no line to draw since the party on the wrong side of the line will be wronged.   I'm completely onboard with this sanitation.....I wish it had started long ago.

LooseGoose wrote:Not sarcastic at all.   I want them all torn down rather than a rolling 20 year fight.     I know how it plays out. I 've seen this show before.   What I want to get to is the next act.   What will it be?    Already there are calls to narrow the 1st amendment.   The ACLU is backing off its unrestricted fight in favor of free speech.    I want to see the next target.  

You who say it's too thick.   Are you going to defend the rapist Jefferson?   The slave owner and seller Washington?   If so, why?
Tel! Me about your moral line?

Bump.

(Not distorting shit)
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:33

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

You quoted the bolded part that I was willing to bet on.   As usual you quote then distort.

You already lost with the Taney statue since he was never part of CSA.

I'm not distorting shit. You talked about Washington and Jefferson before. Are you going to deny that now?

Do you think the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial will be demolished?

You brought it up. Don't run from it now. Or are you just parroting what Trump said, and are we not to take you literally?


No you dolt. I offered a specific wager which I'll again quote here.

LooseGoose wrote:
Ok. Then take my $$. I will wager you that this does not end with CSA veterans.


You then distorted it by applying it to my entire post. That's dishonest but you somehow think it's clever. Not surprising. It's why I generally ignore your ignorant ass.
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-18, 10:33

LooseGoose wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

That's simply not what this is. I know that's the talking point. But that's not what a statue is.

So your position is that a statue is not erected as a reminder of History?

Are people burning books about the Civil War? Or is it still part of American History?

Take your time with that one.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:35

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:
I think it's a great idea.   Tear them all down.  Clean them out of the Capitol.  Erase Stone Mountain.  Erase Mount Rushmore.   Tear down the Stalin Statue in Seattle.   Close the Jefferson Memorial, not only a slave owner but a serial rapist.  Close the Washington Monument.   Tear both of them down.   Get rid of All Andrew Jackson stuff, he was a racist and a slave owner.  Then we need to start with the founding Fathers and explorers, most of them cheated and mistreated Native Americans.   We need to cleanse our history of these people.   There is no line to draw since the party on the wrong side of the line will be wronged.   I'm completely onboard with this sanitation.....I wish it had started long ago.

LooseGoose wrote:Not sarcastic at all.   I want them all torn down rather than a rolling 20 year fight.     I know how it plays out. I 've seen this show before.   What I want to get to is the next act.   What will it be?    Already there are calls to narrow the 1st amendment.   The ACLU is backing off its unrestricted fight in favor of free speech.    I want to see the next target.  

You who say it's too thick.   Are you going to defend the rapist Jefferson?   The slave owner and seller Washington?   If so, why?
Tel! Me about your moral line?

Bump.

(Not distorting shit)

Hey Einstein? Point out where I offer to wager on the parts you bolded. When you fail to do so, STFU.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:36

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

So your position is that a statue is not erected as a reminder of History?

Are people burning books about the Civil War?  Or is it still part of American History?

Take your time with that one.  

Again with you I need no time.   Point out where I said that?    Jeezus you need to spend a LOT less time putting words into my mouth.


Last edited by LooseGoose on 2017-08-18, 10:37; edited 1 time in total
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Post by DWags on 2017-08-18, 10:36

LooseGoose wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

That's simply not what this is. I know that's the talking point. But that's not what a statue is.

So your position is that a statue is not erected as a reminder of History?

So, your position is that by taking them down we're eliminating that history? No books computers documentaries archives. That's really a foolish position.
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Post by NigelUno on 2017-08-18, 10:37

LooseGoose wrote:
NigelUno wrote:



Bump.

(Not distorting shit)

Hey Einstein? Point out where I offer to wager on the parts you bolded. When you fail to do so, STFU.

So, you weren't talking about the Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial being closed and/or demolished?

Just want to make sure.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:37

DWags wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

So your position is that a statue is not erected as a reminder of History?

So, your position is that by taking them down we're eliminating that history?   No books computers documentaries archives.  That's really a foolish position.

Tell me about Taney.   What was his crime?
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Post by DWags on 2017-08-18, 10:39

LooseGoose wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Are people burning books about the Civil War?  Or is it still part of American History?

Take your time with that one.  

Again with you I need no time.   Point out where I said that?    Jeezus you need to spend a LOT less time putting words into my mouth.

So we aren't eliminating that part of our history. We are taking down what has been a symbol of hate for many in our country
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:39

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Hey Einstein? Point out where I offer to wager on the parts you bolded. When you fail to do so, STFU.

So, you weren't talking about the Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial being closed and/or demolished?

Just want to make sure.

And off you go swerving. Of course I talked about them. I didn't offer a wager on them as you said I did. Again, you think yourself clever when actually you're simply proving that you're dumb as a box of rocks.
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Post by Guest on 2017-08-18, 10:41

DWags wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Again with you I need no time.   Point out where I said that?    Jeezus you need to spend a LOT less time putting words into my mouth.

So we aren't eliminating that part of our history. We are taking down what has been a symbol of hate for many in our country

So do you support removing the statues of the rapist Jefferson? The slave owner Washington? How about the battlefields do we strip those clean too? Or aren't those "hate statues"?
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Post by Turtleneck on 2017-08-18, 10:43

LooseGoose wrote:
DWags wrote:

So we aren't eliminating that part of our history. We are taking down what has been a symbol of hate for many in our country

So do you support removing the statues of the rapist Jefferson? The slave owner Washington? How about the battlefields do we strip those clean too? Or aren't those "hate statues"?

Were his victims wearing skirts? I guess not since you consider him rapist.
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