The 2020 Presidential campaign.

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Post by Cameron on 2020-04-30, 12:54

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:My thought is that Biden should withdraw and allow the DNC to nominate someone else. To be clear, I am under no delusion that this "someone else" would be Bernie or Yang or anyone I actually like.

But I had a similar feeling about Kavanagh. There were numerous people the GOP could have put forward instead, people without the accusations and baggage. But they didn't want to lose, didn't want to admit fault, and didn't want to let the other side score any political points, so they rammed him through anyway. Dems are gonna try the same thing.

Worth a read...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/04/29/joe-biden-sexual-assault-allegation-tara-reade-column/3046962001/

You might be shocked but I'm close to agreeing with you that it might be better to switch up. Here's the truth I'm not even that big of a Biden fan, I just thought form day #1 he was the best choice to beat Trump and I'm really a one issue voter this election which is to beat Trump.

If they could make a switch to someone like Cuomo I think he'd get the job done. Going off that article though this line "We can support the #MeToo movement and not support allegations of sexual assault that do not ring true. If these two positions cannot coexist, the movement is no more than a hit squad"

I don't really find Reade to be credible, not sure its fair to destroy someones career and opportunity over something that warrants a lot of skepticism.

Lots of people didn't find Christine Blasey Ford credible, either. And lots of Republicans were saying it wasn't fair to try to destroy Kavanagh's career and opportunity over it. I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now.

Joe Biden has had a long and lucrative career in public service. Nobody owes him anything, and he can't credibly claim to have been denied any opportunity in life. Find somebody better, or live with the consequences when he inevitably loses.
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-04-30, 12:57

Fucking Democrats can’t even stand up for their guy when thousands are dying. If she or someone can come up with the supposed complaint she filed, let’s talk, otherwise pound pavement. Jesus you guys are pussies.
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Post by Cameron on 2020-04-30, 13:03

Rocinante wrote:Fucking Democrats can’t even stand up for their guy when thousands are dying. If she or someone can come up with the supposed complaint she filed, let’s talk, otherwise pound pavement. Jesus you guys are pussies.

If that's the standard you want, fine. But I don't think that's the standard you would have wanted for Kavanagh. It's untenable to apply the "believe all women" standard to Republicans, and then turn around and apply the "prove it or shut up" standard to Biden.

Next time a Republican is accused, you better be consistent, or I'll be right there to point out that you don't really care about truth, justice, or advocating for victims, you just care about playing politics with it.
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-04-30, 13:04

Also, steve, I notice that the Biden story isn’t even on the first page of google news today, even fox isn’t running with it. They are running with some bullshit about his VP search committee. So tighten it up. If you think this is bad you’re going to be a puddle of quivering nerves by the time the campaign really gets going.
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-04-30, 13:11

Cameron wrote:
Rocinante wrote:Fucking Democrats can’t even stand up for their guy when thousands are dying. If she or someone can come up with the supposed complaint she filed, let’s talk, otherwise pound pavement. Jesus you guys are pussies.

If that's the standard you want, fine. But I don't think that's the standard you would have wanted for Kavanagh. It's untenable to apply the "believe all women" standard to Republicans, and then turn around and apply the "prove it or shut up" standard to Biden.

Next time a Republican is accused, you better be consistent, or I'll be right there to point out that you don't really care about truth, justice, or advocating for victims, you just care about playing politics with it.

There are key differences in the Ford accusation. Multiple people corroborated that she told them at the time or in the intervening years when Kavanaugh was not a public figure.

But, I am pretty sure I was on the side of, I don’t know what happened but this dude is being a huge douchebag and why can’t the president and the senate just come up with another nominee. I also think I acknowledged at the time that even if he had done it, you can’t hold someone accountable for something they did as a teenager forever. It was his attitude that miffed me more Th an the accusation. Like, show some humanity dude.

It ain’t the same with a presidential nominee. He’s chosen by the vote, not the president. You can’t just plug and play. Say he puts out a statement and says something compassionate about his accuser and then says but it never happened. What then? It will never be enough.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-04-30, 13:11

Cameron wrote:
Rocinante wrote:Fucking Democrats can’t even stand up for their guy when thousands are dying. If she or someone can come up with the supposed complaint she filed, let’s talk, otherwise pound pavement. Jesus you guys are pussies.

If that's the standard you want, fine. But I don't think that's the standard you would have wanted for Kavanagh. It's untenable to apply the "believe all women" standard to Republicans, and then turn around and apply the "prove it or shut up" standard to Biden.

Next time a Republican is accused, you better be consistent, or I'll be right there to point out that you don't really care about truth, justice, or advocating for victims, you just care about playing politics with it.

I think a lot of people never got on board with the Kavanaugh thing, I remember Jamel Hill posting an article about due process. I don't think the metoo guilty if accused approach sat too well with African Americans because often they are falsely accused and punished.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-04-30, 13:25

Rocinante wrote:
Cameron wrote:

If that's the standard you want, fine. But I don't think that's the standard you would have wanted for Kavanagh. It's untenable to apply the "believe all women" standard to Republicans, and then turn around and apply the "prove it or shut up" standard to Biden.

Next time a Republican is accused, you better be consistent, or I'll be right there to point out that you don't really care about truth, justice, or advocating for victims, you just care about playing politics with it.

There are key differences in the Ford accusation. Multiple people corroborated that she told them at the time or in the intervening years when Kavanaugh was not a public figure.

But, I am pretty sure I was on the side of, I don’t know what happened but this dude is being a huge douchebag and why can’t the president and the senate just come up with another nominee. I also think I acknowledged at the time that even if he had done it, you can’t hold someone accountable for something they did as a teenager forever. It was his attitude that miffed me more Th an the accusation. Like, show some humanity dude.

It ain’t the same with a presidential nominee. He’s chosen by the vote, not the president. You can’t just plug and play. Say he puts out a statement and says something compassionate about his accuser and then says but it never happened. What then? It will never be enough.

Also, Ford was consistent. I honestly didn't pay that much attention to that one. I was up in Maine at Acadia the week that all went down and pretty much not watching the news. I thought your take on him being a huge douche and why not pick another guy was reasonable. Also, if we are honest the whole Kavanaugh thing probably goes back to anger over Garland.
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Post by Cameron on 2020-04-30, 13:33

Rocinante wrote:
Cameron wrote:

If that's the standard you want, fine. But I don't think that's the standard you would have wanted for Kavanagh. It's untenable to apply the "believe all women" standard to Republicans, and then turn around and apply the "prove it or shut up" standard to Biden.

Next time a Republican is accused, you better be consistent, or I'll be right there to point out that you don't really care about truth, justice, or advocating for victims, you just care about playing politics with it.

There are key differences in the Ford accusation.  Multiple people corroborated that she told them at the time or in the intervening years when Kavanaugh was not a public figure.  

But, I am pretty sure I was on the side of, I don’t know what happened but this dude is being a huge douchebag and why can’t the president and the senate just come up with another nominee.  I also think I acknowledged at the time that even if he had done it, you can’t hold someone accountable for something they did as a teenager forever.  It was his attitude that miffed me more Th an the accusation.  Like, show some humanity dude.  

It ain’t the same with a presidential nominee.  He’s chosen by the vote, not the president.  You can’t just plug and play.  Say he puts out a statement and says something compassionate about his accuser and then says but it never happened.  What then?  It will never be enough.

Except the rules and laws say that the DNC can put forth whomever they want as the party's nominee. They don't even have to hold a primary vote at all.

I don't think there's much to be gained by getting into the weeds comparing the two accusations, but I will note that Reade told a few people in the intervening years, some of whom have confirmed that she did so.

It's worth reiterating that the articulated position of the main stream was "believe all women." There was no nuance about credibility and contemporaneous corroboration from multiple sources. And it's only too easy for everyone to say "yeah, but I was on the side of his response disqualifying him, not the accusation itself." Most people were not on that corner at the time, but it's a super crowded corner in hindsight, now.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-04-30, 13:38

I'm voting for the guy who does brag about grabbing women by the pussy.

I guess that makes me a bad christian.

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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-04-30, 13:39

Cameron wrote:
Rocinante wrote:Fucking Democrats can’t even stand up for their guy when thousands are dying. If she or someone can come up with the supposed complaint she filed, let’s talk, otherwise pound pavement. Jesus you guys are pussies.

If that's the standard you want, fine. But I don't think that's the standard you would have wanted for Kavanagh. It's untenable to apply the "believe all women" standard to Republicans, and then turn around and apply the "prove it or shut up" standard to Biden.

Next time a Republican is accused, you better be consistent, or I'll be right there to point out that you don't really care about truth, justice, or advocating for victims, you just care about playing politics with it.
to be fair, republicans didn't believe Ford.

Weird how that works.
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-04-30, 14:20

Cameron wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

There are key differences in the Ford accusation.  Multiple people corroborated that she told them at the time or in the intervening years when Kavanaugh was not a public figure.  

But, I am pretty sure I was on the side of, I don’t know what happened but this dude is being a huge douchebag and why can’t the president and the senate just come up with another nominee.  I also think I acknowledged at the time that even if he had done it, you can’t hold someone accountable for something they did as a teenager forever.  It was his attitude that miffed me more Th an the accusation.  Like, show some humanity dude.  

It ain’t the same with a presidential nominee.  He’s chosen by the vote, not the president.  You can’t just plug and play.  Say he puts out a statement and says something compassionate about his accuser and then says but it never happened.  What then?  It will never be enough.

Except the rules and laws say that the DNC can put forth whomever they want as the party's nominee. They don't even have to hold a primary vote at all.

I don't think there's much to be gained by getting into the weeds comparing the two accusations, but I will note that Reade told a few people in the intervening years, some of whom have confirmed that she did so.

It's worth reiterating that the articulated position of the main stream was "believe all women." There was no nuance about credibility and contemporaneous corroboration from multiple sources. And it's only too easy for everyone to say "yeah, but I was on the side of his response disqualifying him, not the accusation itself." Most people were not on that corner at the time, but it's a super crowded corner in hindsight, now.


Fair, but I think by now you know me not to be one to swing too wildly like that. I will say this: I think various incidents during the metoo era have caused me to think more critically before just believing any accusation. I think it’s possible to both hold that women have been victimized for... well, ever, and to not condemn a man when there is an allegation with very little to back it up. What I hope more than anything is that those willing to cover for toxic men whither and die and women who are victimized feel empowered to openly speak about what happens at the time that it happens.

I know hindsight is 2020 but based on what I’ve read, I find her MUCH less credible than Ford.
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Post by Cameron on 2020-04-30, 14:28

Rocinante wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Except the rules and laws say that the DNC can put forth whomever they want as the party's nominee. They don't even have to hold a primary vote at all.

I don't think there's much to be gained by getting into the weeds comparing the two accusations, but I will note that Reade told a few people in the intervening years, some of whom have confirmed that she did so.

It's worth reiterating that the articulated position of the main stream was "believe all women." There was no nuance about credibility and contemporaneous corroboration from multiple sources. And it's only too easy for everyone to say "yeah, but I was on the side of his response disqualifying him, not the accusation itself." Most people were not on that corner at the time, but it's a super crowded corner in hindsight, now.


Fair, but I think by now you know me not to be one to swing too wildly like that. I will say this: I think various incidents during the metoo era have caused me to think more critically before just believing any accusation. I think it’s possible to both hold that women have been victimized for... well, ever, and to not condemn a man when there is an allegation with very little to back it up. What I hope more than anything is that those willing to cover for toxic men whither and die and women who are victimized feel empowered to openly speak about what happens at the time that it happens.

I know hindsight is 2020 but based on what I’ve read, I find her MUCH less credible than Ford.

I've gotta give you credit. I just reviewed this thread, and nothing I noticed in skimming through it demonstrates any inconsistencies on your behalf. Good on ya, Roc.
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-04-30, 15:01

Thanks that thread was a roller coaster!

My best line: I don’t have the patience for hope anymore.

Also Strangelove!! :( :(
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-04-30, 15:21

All I know is I'm skeptical and I haven't seen enough so for the time being Biden 2020.

Seems like the people that care the most about this are Bernie supporters and I think if they are honest they just need to acknowledge they have a deep personal hatred for Biden. I think their judgement is clouded on this one.
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Post by kingstonlake on 2020-04-30, 15:23

I feel kinda dirty and need a shower now...... Am I wrong for thinking that I’m not sure if the Kavanaugh or Biden accusations are true. But.... one guy was a college freshman and the other a senator. Aren’t you supposed to exercise better judgement at Senator age vs college? I mean jeez, I did some really really stupid shit in college that I didn’t do in my 40’s
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-04-30, 15:27

the mainstream media now upset with Nancy Pelosi..

Pelosi snaps at reporter over Biden allegation, doubles down on support: 'I don't need a lecture'

The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 25 502811600 The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 25 502811600

Caution: Mainstream Media Link
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-04-30, 15:29

kingstonlake wrote:I feel kinda dirty and need a shower now...... Am I wrong for thinking that I’m not sure if the Kavanaugh or Biden accusations are true. But.... one guy was a college freshman and the other a senator. Aren’t you supposed to exercise better judgement at Senator age vs college? I mean jeez, I did some really really stupid shit in college that I didn’t do in my 40’s
both would be wrong..

what the issue is, is that the mainstream media and christians had no problem with KKKavanaugh.. and they suddenly have a problem with Biden.

This has been predictable all along.. it's only going to get worse.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-04-30, 15:33

and if you're wondering why the mainstream media wants to talk about Joe Biden.. 61,000+ dead from COVID 19.. over one million diagnosed as positive, less than 2% of the population has been tested, then there's this today:

First-time claims for unemployment benefits totaled 3.8 million in the week ending April 25, after factoring in seasonal adjustments, the US Department of Labor said.


but, yes, let's talk about Joe Biden. The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 25 502811600
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Post by Cameron on 2020-04-30, 15:34

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:I feel kinda dirty and need a shower now...... Am I wrong for thinking that I’m not sure if the Kavanaugh or Biden accusations are true. But.... one guy was a college freshman and the other a senator. Aren’t you supposed to exercise better judgement at Senator age vs college? I mean jeez, I did some really really stupid shit in college that I didn’t do in my 40’s
both would be wrong..

what the issue is, is that the mainstream media and christians had no problem with KKKavanaugh.. and they suddenly have a problem with Biden.

This has been predictable all along.. it's only going to get worse.

The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 25 502811600 That's a truly hilarious take, Bob.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-04-30, 15:37

Cameron wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote: both would be wrong..

what the issue is, is that the mainstream media and christians had no problem with KKKavanaugh.. and they suddenly have a problem with Biden.

This has been predictable all along.. it's only going to get worse.

The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 25 502811600 That's a truly hilarious take, Bob.
81% of christians voted for the guy who bragged about grabbing women by the pussy... and the mainstream media normalized him because he was good for ratings.. just like they continue to do.

I wouldn't call it hilarious.. but you do you, dude.

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Post by Cameron on 2020-04-30, 16:57

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Cameron wrote:

The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 25 502811600 That's a truly hilarious take, Bob.
81% of christians voted for the guy who bragged about grabbing women by the pussy... and the mainstream media normalized him because he was good for ratings.. just like they continue to do.

I wouldn't call it hilarious.. but you do you, dude.


Firstly, I said your take was hilarious, not the state of the nation. Secondly, the topic was Kavanaugh, not Trump.

I was more or less ignoring the christians part of your post, because I'm not sure there's polling data on what christians  specifically thought about Kavanaugh. I was mostly reacting to the idea that the media had no problem with Kavanaugh, especially juxtaposed with Biden. The allegations against Kavanaugh received FAR more coverage than the allegations against Biden have, at least to this point.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-04-30, 19:17

Cameron wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
81% of christians voted for the guy who bragged about grabbing women by the pussy... and the mainstream media normalized him because he was good for ratings.. just like they continue to do.

I wouldn't call it hilarious.. but you do you, dude.


Firstly, I said your take was hilarious, not the state of the nation. Secondly, the topic was Kavanaugh, not Trump.

I was more or less ignoring the christians part of your post, because I'm not sure there's polling data on what christians  specifically thought about Kavanaugh. I was mostly reacting to the idea that the media had no problem with Kavanaugh, especially juxtaposed with Biden. The allegations against Kavanaugh received FAR more coverage than the allegations against Biden have, at least to this point.
cool. Have fun.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-01, 07:53

After the state capital protest yesterday will have zero problem voting for Biden. It’s about survival of the country and beating back right wing extremism.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-01, 08:04

Also, Biden will be on Morning Joe this morning.

[tw]1256185803602100224?s=21[/tw]
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-01, 08:13

steveschneider wrote:After the state capital protest yesterday will have zero problem voting for Biden. It’s about survival of the country and beating back right wing extremism.  
yeah, I'm no political strategist but I suspect these silly antics by these sad, paranoid little boys play well in Mio, but the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator doesn't need help in Mio. He's pretty well got the Mio vote.

he needs help in the educated suburban areas of Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Detroit, etc - I doubt patriots playing GI Joe and running around with their assault rifles and screaming at brave law enforcement officers doesn't play very well in those areas.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-01, 08:17

[tw]1256193704194461696?s=21[/tw]
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-01, 08:21

steveschneider wrote:[tw]1256193704194461696?s=21[/tw]
I wonder if he's ever bragged about grabbing women by the pussy?

if so, that probably wouldn't play very well with christians.

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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-01, 11:01

25 women have accused Donald J. Trump of sexual assault can't recall Morning Joe grilling him back in 2016 for 14+ minutes over any of these allegations.
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Post by Floyd Robertson on 2020-05-01, 11:27

So here are two federal (or former) prosecutors weighing in.

[tw]1256243325633327105[/tw]
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-01, 11:30

Floyd Robertson wrote:So here are two federal (or former) prosecutors weighing in.

[tw]1256243325633327105[/tw]
kinda funny how the right and the mainstream media aren't concerned with Hunter Biden anymore..

I wonder what they're next outrage du jour will be??
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-01, 11:57

Floyd Robertson wrote:So here are two federal (or former) prosecutors weighing in.

[tw]1256243325633327105[/tw]


Good read. It definitely leaves room for a lot of skepticism.

-------

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