Lets attempt a no flaming thread. Ruby Ridge

[kingstonlake]

I've kinda been doing a deep dive (as deep as my small brain will allow) into it this weekend. At some point don't you have to pick a side? From the onset I'd say no, you don't have to, let common sense prevail. But eventually things spiraled so badly you're forced to.

Government: Monumental overreach of power, disregard of constitutional rights, disregard of law, and human stupidity

Weaver: Monumental stupidity, law breaking, stubbornness, and poor choices

We know its the seed that planted the militia movement unfortunately. But if you plant seeds they will grow. Even if those seeds are weeds. And the government did plant those seeds. Really sad what happened and tragic. I get what the government was doing with the heavy presence in the area of Aryan element. But man, was that a HUGE fuck up on their part, and here were are now with a vocal minority using it as a rallying cry.

[Rocinante]

I think the major lesson should have been tighten your shit up Feds. A better executed operation on many fronts would have probably avoided bloodshed. But the guy was an aryan nation piece of shit with a psycho wife infecting their kids with their bullshit. The feds didn’t really learn as evidenced by Waco, and after Waco they finally learned the wrong lesson. Now they avoid conflict at all costs which leads to the bullshit situation with the Bundy clan and their offshoots now. That will eventually blow up because they are just daring the feds and cops at every turn to do something they can claim is heavy handed. They fucking occupied a federal building for Christ’s sake.

[kingstonlake]

I think the major lesson should have been tighten your shit up Feds. A better executed operation on many fronts would have probably avoided bloodshed. But the guy was an aryan nation piece of shit with a psycho wife infecting their kids with their bullshit. The feds didn’t really learn as evidenced by Waco, and after Waco they finally learned the wrong lesson. Now they avoid conflict at all costs which leads to the bullshit situation with the Bundy clan and their offshoots now. That will eventually blow up because they are just daring the feds and cops at every turn to do something they can claim is heavy handed. They fucking occupied a federal building for Christ’s sake.

I've watch docs that are biased on both sides of the conflict. It does seem the Aryan nation angle is way overplayed. There was definitely sizable element in that area. But its pretty well documented that he did attend a couple of the weekend "gatherings" but said no thanks to joining or becoming part of the group. He did have friends and contacts with them. Probably inevitable with anyone in that lived in that county. Sure, being a racist or anti Semite is deplorable but to the best of my knowledge he never engaged in anything that acted out on it. Yeah, he sold a couple shotguns to an informant and refused to flip for the government and become an informant for them and that when the tornado of stupidity started on both sides.

[Rocinante]

Were the charges weak? Sure. Were they executing a legal warrant? Yup. Could they have handled it better? Yup. Would backing off have led to more flouting off law? Unknowable, but I think yes. And there’s no such thing as a little t in the aryan nation.

[kingstonlake]

Were the charges weak? Sure. Were they executing a legal warrant? Yup. Could they have handled it better? Yup. Would backing off have led to more flouting off law? Unknowable, but I think yes. And there’s no such thing as a little t in the aryan nation.

It's like anything could have went wrong did. According to senate testimony they arrested him on the gun sale by posing as stranded motorist. When him and his wife stopped to help he was arrested. They then set a date for appearing on Feb 20th. The paperwork sent to his attorney stated March 20th appearance. Judge said fuck it, feb 20th when his attorney had paperwork showing March 20th. Judge issued a fugitive warrant when he didn't appear on feb 20th. Freaking nuts and the thing spiraled out of control from there.

[Rocinante]

I haven’t looked as extensively as you have at it, but I thought they waited to execute that warrant until after the later date that was put on the letter sent to to him erroneously. Meaning the actual deadline and the mistake deadline were both passed.

[kingstonlake]

I haven’t looked as extensively as you have at it, but I thought they waited to execute that warrant until after the later date that was put on the letter sent to to him erroneously. Meaning the actual deadline and the mistake deadline were both passed.

Edit: According to wiki the warrant wasn't going to be executed before March 20th but the U.S. attorney called a grand jury on March 14th, didn't provide the GJ with the letter showing the march 20th date and was successful in getting the fugitive warrant

I'll double check that.  Something else that was nuts were the rules of engagement after the son was killed.  Even career hostage team snipers were stunned at the ROE without a surrender offer.

[Rocinante]

I mean I agree with you that it was really poorly executed, but I have trouble looking at our modern situation saying that it was government overreach or violating civil rights. Fuck Nazis.

[kingstonlake]

I mean I agree with you that it was really poorly executed, but I have trouble looking at our modern situation saying that it was government overreach or violating civil rights. Fuck Nazis.

Definitely.

[kingstonlake]

Another tidbit. Who was the attorney general at the time? He was the same guy who put together and contributed to the federal governments defense of fbi assistant director Larry Potts who issued shoot to kill orders, and the sniper who shot Weavers wife?

None other than William Barr

I wonder what percentage of these pro trump protesters and “we hate government intrusion open up the state” dopes even know that.

https://gunowners.org/bill-barr-needs-to-answer-for-his-role-in-ruby-ridge/

Barr was in charge of the Justice Department during Ruby Ridge, and he knew what was going on.

Barr stated, under oath, that his chief gun priority would be the Ruby Ridge-like gun confiscation orders (sugar-coated as “red flag laws”).

You may remember that Barr’s federal agents descended on Randy Weaver’s Idaho compound in August, 1992, and (1) shot weaver in the back; (2) shot Weaver’s wife Vicki to death, while she was holding her infant son; (3) shot Weaver’s 14 year-old son to death; and (4) shot Weaver’s dog.

Courts subsequently largely exonerated Weaver, while excoriating the FBI and the Department of Justice. And, although then-Attorney General William Barr claimed to know nothing about the Ruby Ridge fiasco, a 1995 Washington Post article reported that there were 20 high-level DOJ calls about Weaver in the 24 hours preceding the murder of his wife — and two of them directly involved Barr.

After that, Barr spent huge amounts of pro bono time trying to get exoneration for the FBI sniper who shot Vicki Weaver to death. He pushed for immunity from prosecution, organized letters on his behalf, and framed arguments before the trial and appeals courts.

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