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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 09:53

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/coronavirus-meat-vegetarianism.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

The End of Meat is Here: If you care about the working poor, about racial justice, and about climate change, you have to stop eating meat.

This is not going to go over well here Merlin_172347249_fac43c30-0fb2-4f4d-a251-6a20dd644421-superJumbo
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 10:06

I don't preach, or judge but I've kind of been there for a while. Was at a friends cookout last weekend (he set it up so it was socially distanced and all that) he made us a burger and had these sausages and of course I ate it but I just don't buy it often or seek it out. Why? Some ethical reasons for sure but what makes it easy is I really just enjoy eating vegetables a lot.
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Post by Motown Spartan on 2020-05-21, 10:10

Yeah, good luck with that.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 10:26

Eat what you want.

crazy talk, I know.


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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 10:27

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Eat what you want.

crazy talk, I know.



Couldn't agree more.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 10:29

steveschneider wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:Eat what you want.

crazy talk, I know.



Couldn't agree more.
we're old fashioned, I reckon.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 10:35

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Eat what you want.

crazy talk, I know.



So if the meat industry as it exists now preys on the poor and is harmful to the climate, why do you support other measures that limit people's individual choices to prevent them from harming others? Same question to you, Steve. It doesn't seems consistent.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 10:36

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Couldn't agree more.
we're old fashioned, I reckon.

I used to have friends that would argue about ethical eating with other people and it was always so cringe worthy. Just stfu and eat food.

Also, turtle I'm pretty sure I've seen a truck like that. Was at a hallal restaurant in Brooklyn and after the meal we were out front chatting a truck pulled up and lifted the back door. The friends we were chatting with had no clue what I was looking at and was right behind them. Two dudes grabbed a few lambs and brought them into the place.


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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 10:38

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:Eat what you want.

crazy talk, I know.



So if the meat industry as it exists now preys on the poor and is harmful to the climate, why do you support other measures that limit people's individual choices to prevent them from harming others? Same question to you, Steve. It doesn't seems consistent.

The best I can do is eat the way I eat. I belong to a CSA and I eat as many greens as I can.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 10:42

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:Eat what you want.

crazy talk, I know.



So if the meat industry as it exists now preys on the poor and is harmful to the climate, why do you support other measures that limit people's individual choices to prevent them from harming others? Same question to you, Steve. It doesn't seems consistent.
you're right - it's not consistent at all.

Once we have an educational system, a healthcare system, a judicial system, a prison system, an electoral system, etc. that addresses a fair and equitable society, I'd be happy to discuss whether or not someone should be eating a cheeseburger.
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Post by DWags on 2020-05-21, 10:49

I don't know, since the kids have been stuck with the wife and I since March, I think we're doing way less red meat, more veggies and fish. I'm never going to judge anyone here, but I probably did eat way too much meat during the week.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 10:50

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

So if the meat industry as it exists now preys on the poor and is harmful to the climate, why do you support other measures that limit people's individual choices to prevent them from harming others? Same question to you, Steve. It doesn't seems consistent.
you're right - it's not consistent at all. I just believe that there are other aspects of society that need to be addressed first.

Once we have an educational system, a healthcare system, a judicial system, a prison system, an electoral system, etc. that addresses a fair and equitable society, I'd be happy to discuss whether or not someone should be eating a cheeseburger.

But what if the meat industry exacerbates the poverty and racial injustice you clearly - by way of your above post - care about and want to address? Many of the inequities you mention very much relate to poverty and race.  Does it not become more than just "eating a cheeseburger?" Or are you suggesting that the link between meat and poverty and race is limited, or just not a very important action we can take to address poverty and race?
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 10:58

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
you're right - it's not consistent at all. I just believe that there are other aspects of society that need to be addressed first.

Once we have an educational system, a healthcare system, a judicial system, a prison system, an electoral system, etc. that addresses a fair and equitable society, I'd be happy to discuss whether or not someone should be eating a cheeseburger.

But what if the meat industry exacerbates the poverty and racial injustice you clearly - by way of your above post - care about and want to address? Many of the inequities you mention very much relate to poverty and race.  Does it not become more than just "eating a cheeseburger?" Or are you suggesting that the link between meat and poverty and race is limited, or just not a very important action we can take to address poverty and race?
dude, I don't know. I'm an idiot who hovers right around a third grade reading level.

I'm just saying that once white people stop murdering unarmed black kids.. once the educational system treats minorities and lower income, at risk people with equity, once death row stops murdering low income POC at a significantly higher rate than middle class white people, I'd be happy to entertain cheeseburger eating.

if it's your thing, dude, that's awesome. Seriously. This is not going to go over well here 3493939353
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Post by DWags on 2020-05-21, 10:58

Turtleneck wrote:

But what if the meat industry exacerbates the poverty and racial injustice you clearly - by way of your above post - care about and want to address?

Just so we can have an honest and interesting debate, please list as many industries as you can think of that don't exacerbate the poverty, and racial injustices in America.

That way, we can maybe decide, of all those which are left, who to correct first.  As of now, I can't think of many industries which don't harm the poorest of those in society, but if I had a list of importance, I odn't quite know where I'd put the meat industry.


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Post by NigelUno on 2020-05-21, 10:58

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:Eat what you want.

crazy talk, I know.



So if the meat industry as it exists now preys on the poor and is harmful to the climate, why do you support other measures that limit people's individual choices to prevent them from harming others? Same question to you, Steve. It doesn't seems consistent.

Doesn't the fruit and vegetable industry also prey on the poor and harm the environment?
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Post by DWags on 2020-05-21, 11:00

NigelUno wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

So if the meat industry as it exists now preys on the poor and is harmful to the climate, why do you support other measures that limit people's individual choices to prevent them from harming others? Same question to you, Steve. It doesn't seems consistent.

Doesn't the fruit and vegetable industry also prey on the poor and harm the environment?

You mean paying illegal immigrants below poverty wages with no health care?
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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 11:09

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

But what if the meat industry exacerbates the poverty and racial injustice you clearly - by way of your above post - care about and want to address? Many of the inequities you mention very much relate to poverty and race.  Does it not become more than just "eating a cheeseburger?" Or are you suggesting that the link between meat and poverty and race is limited, or just not a very important action we can take to address poverty and race?
dude, I don't know. I'm an idiot who hovers right around a third grade reading level.

I'm just saying that once white people stop murdering unarmed black kids.. once the educational system treats minorities and lower income, at risk people with equity, once death row stops murdering low income POC at a significantly higher rate than middle class white people, I'd be happy to entertain cheeseburger eating.

if it's your thing, dude, that's awesome. Seriously. This is not going to go over well here 3493939353

I was only asking because I would agree with the latter: that to address the issues you identify the consumption of meat is not where you start. The author simply tries to use serious issues to advance his ethical concerns about eating meat. I agree with him, but do not think a major decrease in the consumption of meat would mean the things you mention are magically addressed.

DWags wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

But what if the meat industry exacerbates the poverty and racial injustice you clearly - by way of your above post - care about and want to address?

Just so we can have an honest and interesting debate, please list as many industries as you can think of that don't exacerbate the poverty, and racial injustices in America.

That way, we can maybe decide, of all those which are left, who to correct first.  As of now, I can't think of many industries which don't harm the poorest of those in society, but if I had a list of importance, I odn't quite know where I'd put the meat industry.

DWags wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

But what if the meat industry exacerbates the poverty and racial injustice you clearly - by way of your above post - care about and want to address?

Just so we can have an honest and interesting debate, please list as many industries as you can think of that don't exacerbate the poverty, and racial injustices in America.

That way, we can maybe decide, of all those which are left, who to correct first.  As of now, I can't think of many industries which don't harm the poorest of those in society, but if I had a list of importance, I odn't quite know where I'd put the meat industry.

I think many of them do, but I think this is an interesting topic because it is a much easier choice we can make as individuals.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 11:10

NigelUno wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

So if the meat industry as it exists now preys on the poor and is harmful to the climate, why do you support other measures that limit people's individual choices to prevent them from harming others? Same question to you, Steve. It doesn't seems consistent.

Doesn't the fruit and vegetable industry also prey on the poor and harm the environment?

Yes, especially the first one.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2020-05-21, 11:12

Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 11:14

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.
I can tell ya that my wife shops at Whole Foods (I can't stand that place).. they assure her that all of the animals within their meat area die a happier death than others.

we don't eat a ton of meat.. but, according to Whole Foods, the meat we do eat died with a smile on their face.
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Post by NigelUno on 2020-05-21, 11:15

Turtleneck wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Doesn't the fruit and vegetable industry also prey on the poor and harm the environment?

Yes, especially the first one.

Eggs?

I mean...I'm running out of options here. Do I need to stick with soy?
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 11:16

NigelUno wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Yes, especially the first one.

Eggs?

I mean...I'm running out of options here. Do I need to stick with soy?
I wonder who the rogue tofurkey industry disenfranchises?
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Post by NigelUno on 2020-05-21, 11:19

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.
I can tell ya that my wife shops at Whole Foods (I can't stand that place).. they assure her that all of the animals within their meat area die a happier death than others.

we don't eat a ton of meat.. but, according to Whole Foods, the meat we do eat died with a smile on their face.

I got yelled at when I went to Whole Foods. Put the basket thing on the belt to check out. The cashier lost it. Salmon tasted good though. Not sure if it died happy.
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Post by Motown Spartan on 2020-05-21, 11:20

Liberals always tryna kill the economy.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 11:22

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.

Couldn't agree more. Enjoy it people.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2020-05-21, 11:23

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.

Settle down pylon no one is going to take away your Slim Jim’s
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Post by DWags on 2020-05-21, 11:24

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.

Settle down pylon no one is going to take away your Slim Jim’s

Is that actually meat?
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 11:25

NigelUno wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote: I can tell ya that my wife shops at Whole Foods (I can't stand that place).. they assure her that all of the animals within their meat area die a happier death than others.

we don't eat a ton of meat.. but, according to Whole Foods, the meat we do eat died with a smile on their face.

I got yelled at when I went to Whole Foods. Put the basket thing on the belt to check out. The cashier lost it. Salmon tasted good though. Not sure if it died happy.
not my scene. Too many white people with fancy cars.

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Post by Nordic on 2020-05-21, 12:07

Turtleneck wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/coronavirus-meat-vegetarianism.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

The End of Meat is Here: If you care about the working poor, about racial justice, and about climate change, you have to stop eating meat.

This is not going to go over well here Merlin_172347249_fac43c30-0fb2-4f4d-a251-6a20dd644421-superJumbo


We can argue this till the cows come home....

Food production, all food production, including broccoli, currently creates greenhouse gases. An all vegan agriculture produces a wide range issues as well soil degradation, pesticides, etc. There are ways to produce meat, dairy and veggies that is sustainable, replenish soil and limit/eliminate greenhouse gasses. We just don't do it. At least not on a mass scale. I would agree we need to do more to curb greenhouse gases. The rest is just spin from either side (meat industry or vegans).

T-neck you watch Game Changers on Netflix? It was pretty good, but still a lot of spin. Eat a well balanced diet of fruits, veggies, nuts, grains and protein. Push for agricultural change to save the environment. Have a beer. Call it a day.

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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 12:14

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

I got yelled at when I went to Whole Foods. Put the basket thing on the belt to check out. The cashier lost it. Salmon tasted good though. Not sure if it died happy.
not my scene. Too many white people with fancy cars.


You're pretty white, Bob.
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Post by DWags on 2020-05-21, 12:29

Nordic wrote:

We can argue this till the cows come home....


This is not going to go over well here 1966794946
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Post by MiamiSpartan on 2020-05-21, 12:38

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.

I agree completely. Like you said, there are bigger fish to fry and if someone has a beef with this view, too bad. I'm not going to ham it up and run around like a chicken with its head cut off just because of some meat shortages.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 12:38

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:not my scene. Too many white people with fancy cars.


You're pretty white, Bob.
yeah but I don't like white people.. weird, isn't it?
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 12:43

also, they lose me with the silly picture included in the article.. if they want to have an intellectual debate, fine. Trying to make a statement by showing pictures of a bunch of cow carcasses doesn't exactly scream "I'm humble advocate for social justice".

hard to take an attempt at shock value seriously.
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Post by Cameron on 2020-05-21, 12:44

Factory farming is bad in pretty much every way other than the price of the meat it produces, and we would all be better off if CAFOs were banned.

However, in my experience, this is not a change you can guilt people into. I fucking love eating meat, and I always have. I was a vegetarian for about 6 years, and I was only able to stick with it for that long because I really believed in it and wanted it for myself.

I firmly believe that there is an ethical, sustainable way for people to eat meat. I also firmly believe that we're not particularly close on either count with the way we do things now.

I'm gonna go have a burger now.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 12:47

Robert J Sakimano wrote:also, they lose me with the silly picture included in the article.. if they want to have an intellectual debate, fine. Trying to make a statement by showing pictures of a bunch of cow carcasses doesn't exactly scream "I'm humble advocate for social justice".

hard to take an attempt at shock value seriously.

Hey look, a white man telling people they need to be humble about their causes. Never seen that before.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 12:51

Nordic wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/coronavirus-meat-vegetarianism.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

The End of Meat is Here: If you care about the working poor, about racial justice, and about climate change, you have to stop eating meat.

This is not going to go over well here Merlin_172347249_fac43c30-0fb2-4f4d-a251-6a20dd644421-superJumbo


We can argue this till the cows come home....

Food production, all food production, including broccoli, currently creates greenhouse gases. An all vegan agriculture produces a wide range issues as well soil degradation, pesticides, etc. There are ways to produce meat, dairy and veggies that is sustainable, replenish soil and limit/eliminate greenhouse gasses. We just don't do it. At least not on a mass scale. I would agree we need to do more to curb greenhouse gases. The rest is just spin from either side (meat industry or vegans).

T-neck you watch Game Changers on Netflix? It was pretty good, but still a lot of spin. Eat a well balanced diet of fruits, veggies, nuts, grains and protein. Push for agricultural change to save the environment. Have a beer. Call it a day.


I haven't watched it. I will check it out.

For the record, I have never said that I don't eat meat...or that I eat meat. What I do admit to knowing is that meat is murder and that meat (and raw milk) get people riled up around here.


Last edited by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 12:55

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:also, they lose me with the silly picture included in the article.. if they want to have an intellectual debate, fine. Trying to make a statement by showing pictures of a bunch of cow carcasses doesn't exactly scream "I'm humble advocate for social justice".

hard to take an attempt at shock value seriously.

Hey look, an **upper-middle class white man telling people they need to be humble about their causes. Never seen that before.
fixed.


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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 12:57

This is not going to go over well here 502811600

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Post by Cameron on 2020-05-21, 13:00

Turtleneck wrote:
Nordic wrote:


We can argue this till the cows come home....

Food production, all food production, including broccoli, currently creates greenhouse gases. An all vegan agriculture produces a wide range issues as well soil degradation, pesticides, etc. There are ways to produce meat, dairy and veggies that is sustainable, replenish soil and limit/eliminate greenhouse gasses. We just don't do it. At least not on a mass scale. I would agree we need to do more to curb greenhouse gases. The rest is just spin from either side (meat industry or vegans).

T-neck you watch Game Changers on Netflix? It was pretty good, but still a lot of spin. Eat a well balanced diet of fruits, veggies, nuts, grains and protein. Push for agricultural change to save the environment. Have a beer. Call it a day.


I haven't watched it. I will check it out.

For the record, I have never said that I don't eat meat...or that I eat meat. What I do admit to knowing is that meat is murder and that meat (and raw milk) get people riled up around here.

It's adorable how cagey you get about insignificant personal details.
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