This is not going to go over well here

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Post by Heat Miser on 2020-05-21, 13:07

Robert J Sakimano wrote:also, they lose me with the silly picture included in the article.. if they want to have an intellectual debate, fine. Trying to make a statement by showing pictures of a bunch of cow carcasses doesn't exactly scream "I'm humble advocate for social justice".

hard to take an attempt at shock value seriously.

If people see what's behind that nice looking package in the Pubix meat section, they might give a second thought to their consumption habits. Which of course is why the meat industry lobbies to keep those details private.

Full disclosure: I eat meat.
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Post by Turtleneck on 2020-05-21, 13:09

Cameron wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

I haven't watched it. I will check it out.

For the record, I have never said that I don't eat meat...or that I eat meat. What I do admit to knowing is that meat is murder and that meat (and raw milk) get people riled up around here.

It's adorable how cagey you get about insignificant personal details.

Why do you get to define what is insignificant? Stop trying to get info on posters so you can make profiles to sell to marketing companies.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 13:20

Heat Miser wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:also, they lose me with the silly picture included in the article.. if they want to have an intellectual debate, fine. Trying to make a statement by showing pictures of a bunch of cow carcasses doesn't exactly scream "I'm humble advocate for social justice".

hard to take an attempt at shock value seriously.

If people see what's behind that nice looking package in the Pubix meat section, they might give a second thought to their consumption habits. Which of course is why the meat industry lobbies to keep those details private.

Full disclosure: I eat meat.
I'd say the meat industry isn't doing a very good job.. I suspect it's a click away on YouTube.

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Post by Heat Miser on 2020-05-21, 13:25

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:also, they lose me with the silly picture included in the article.. if they want to have an intellectual debate, fine. Trying to make a statement by showing pictures of a bunch of cow carcasses doesn't exactly scream "I'm humble advocate for social justice".

hard to take an attempt at shock value seriously.

If people see what's behind that nice looking package in the Pubix meat section, they might give a second thought to their consumption habits. Which of course is why the meat industry lobbies to keep those details private.

Full disclosure: I eat meat.
I'd say the meat industry isn't doing a very good job.. I suspect it's a click away on YouTube.


Most peeps don't want to see it & won't look for it. They've successfully made it illegal in many states to film what goes on in slaughterhouses. Why would they do that? What are they hiding?
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 13:26

Heat Miser wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:I'd say the meat industry isn't doing a very good job..  I suspect it's a click away on YouTube.


Most peeps don't want to see it & won't look for it. They've successfully made it illegal in many states to film what goes on in slaughterhouses. Why would they do that? What are they hiding?
yeah, I don't know - same could be said for pretty much every aspect of our society.

I mean, I know what goes on in prison, with Congress, with priests, etc - I don't need to see it.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 13:36

Heat Miser wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:also, they lose me with the silly picture included in the article.. if they want to have an intellectual debate, fine. Trying to make a statement by showing pictures of a bunch of cow carcasses doesn't exactly scream "I'm humble advocate for social justice".

hard to take an attempt at shock value seriously.

If people see what's behind that nice looking package in the Pubix meat section, they might give a second thought to their consumption habits. Which of course is why the meat industry lobbies to keep those details private.

Full disclosure: I eat meat.

Yeah, I remember seeing a slaughter house video once even in my prime meat eating days and that was tough. I think people should see it though. Didn't deter me but made me appreciate what I was eating and make sure it does not go to waste. I have a bigger pet peeve with people that cook that shit up and let it go in the trash. That to me is the part of the whole thing that I find the most offensive.
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Post by aualum06 on 2020-05-21, 13:38

Luckily we've always raised or hunted almost all of our own meat. I buy chicken and some different cuts for smoking and that's about it. Meat as a mass production is a very slimy business.
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Post by Cameron on 2020-05-21, 13:40

Turtleneck wrote:
Cameron wrote:

It's adorable how cagey you get about insignificant personal details.

Why do you get to define what is insignificant? Stop trying to get info on posters so you can make profiles to sell to marketing companies.

My dossier on you is getting quite large, even without your exact age and meat consumption habits. Someone will pay top dollar for it.
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Post by Cameron on 2020-05-21, 13:41

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:

Most peeps don't want to see it & won't look for it. They've successfully made it illegal in many states to film what goes on in slaughterhouses. Why would they do that? What are they hiding?
yeah, I don't know - same could be said for pretty much every aspect of our society.

I mean, I know what goes on in prison, with Congress, with priests, etc - I don't need to see it.
What a shock, guys, Bob is on team willful ignorance on this one...
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 13:42

Cameron wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Why do you get to define what is insignificant? Stop trying to get info on posters so you can make profiles to sell to marketing companies.

My dossier on you is getting quite large, even without your exact age and meat consumption habits. Someone will pay top dollar for it.
you could turn it into an Off Broadway production and this could be the theme song.

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Post by Robert J Sakimano on 2020-05-21, 13:43

Cameron wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
yeah, I don't know - same could be said for pretty much every aspect of our society.

I mean, I know what goes on in prison, with Congress, with priests, etc - I don't need to see it.
What a shock, guys, Bob is on team willful ignorance on this one...
my adult film star name is Will Full Ignorance.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2020-05-21, 13:45

Cameron wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Why do you get to define what is insignificant? Stop trying to get info on posters so you can make profiles to sell to marketing companies.

My dossier on you is getting quite large, even without your exact age and meat consumption habits. Someone will pay top dollar for it.

I’ll give you $50
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Post by Heathens '87 on 2020-05-21, 13:46

The consumption of meat has certainly changed in recent years. Beef...76.4 pounds per capita in 1980. 58.0 in 2019. Pork a corresponding drop. But the market shifted to chicken, turkey and fish. I think the argument here is these market changes are driven more by health concerns than anything ethical.

It's more than a fair argument to suggest there are ethical considerations with all animal consumption and not just ethics directed at the animals themselves. The initial article here frames the ramifications of such choices well. The impact on the poor, racial inequalities, climate change, etc. All 100% true.

Societal change, however, is another matter. I'm still stunned there is littering. The Native American cried in the commercial! Did people not get it?! It's improved, recycling options are better, returnables helped, etc. But change is incremental and evolving.

I could see beef and pork becoming the next candles. You don't need a candle to provide light in your home. It's a different role. Print media is much the same. Evolving. If people really took a look at meat processing, that would be a catalyst for change. I'm not sure what breaks through, but I do think younger people are less likely to eat cheap meat from your fast-food joints. We're already changing. Heck, my eggs are now "cage-free" and organic. Find that in 1980.....

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Post by CORNER BLITZ on 2020-05-21, 14:30

What is better for the climate/Earth? A sick population or a healthy thriving one? If you want to keep the poor and small down, keep them away from meat and tell them they are stupid and immoral if they choose that direction


https://www.economist.com/international/2019/05/04/global-meat-eating-is-on-the-rise-bringing-surprising-benefits

Global meat-eating is on the rise, bringing surprising benefits
As Africans get richer, they will eat more meat and live longer, healthier lives
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 14:45

Heathens '87 wrote:The consumption of meat has certainly changed in recent years. Beef...76.4 pounds per capita in 1980. 58.0 in 2019. Pork a corresponding drop. But the market shifted to chicken, turkey and fish. I think the argument here is these market changes are driven more by health concerns than anything ethical.

It's more than a fair argument to suggest there are ethical considerations with all animal consumption and not just ethics directed at the animals themselves. The initial article here frames the ramifications of such choices well. The impact on the poor, racial inequalities, climate change, etc. All 100% true.

Societal change, however, is another matter. I'm still stunned there is littering. The Native American cried in the commercial! Did people not get it?! It's improved, recycling options are better, returnables helped, etc. But change is incremental and evolving.

I could see beef and pork becoming the next candles. You don't need a candle to provide light in your home. It's a different role. Print media is much the same. Evolving. If people really took a look at meat processing, that would be a catalyst for change. I'm not sure what breaks through, but I do think younger people are less likely to eat cheap meat from your fast-food joints. We're already changing. Heck, my eggs are now "cage-free" and organic. Find that in 1980.....


Yeah, when we do cook meat I actually shell out cash for the top quality shit. There's a farm locally where you can buy ethically raised meat that is local. At our farmers market there's a fish stand and the guy you are buying from owns the boat and either him or his partner goes out with his crew and catches the fish. I find it tastes incredible as well. He had a scallop there that was fresh caught the day before. He cut it with a knife and gave it to me so fresh you could eat it raw. Thing tasted like butter. Bought a bunch of them and cooked a nice garlic pasta dish with them so f'n good.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on 2020-05-21, 14:47

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Jesus Christ, if you want to eat meat just eat meat. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to turn everyone vegetarian for the good of the planet. This title can fuck right off.

Settle down pylon no one is going to take away your Slim Jim’s

I'll eat your meat if you don't want it.
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Post by Nordic on 2020-05-21, 14:48

Turtleneck wrote:
Nordic wrote:


We can argue this till the cows come home....

Food production, all food production, including broccoli, currently creates greenhouse gases. An all vegan agriculture produces a wide range issues as well soil degradation, pesticides, etc. There are ways to produce meat, dairy and veggies that is sustainable, replenish soil and limit/eliminate greenhouse gasses. We just don't do it. At least not on a mass scale. I would agree we need to do more to curb greenhouse gases. The rest is just spin from either side (meat industry or vegans).

T-neck you watch Game Changers on Netflix? It was pretty good, but still a lot of spin. Eat a well balanced diet of fruits, veggies, nuts, grains and protein. Push for agricultural change to save the environment. Have a beer. Call it a day.


I haven't watched it. I will check it out.

For the record, I have never said that I don't eat meat...or that I eat meat. What I do admit to knowing is that meat is murder and that meat (and raw milk) get people riled up around here.


Eating broccoli is broccoliside

You're fucking up, bud.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on 2020-05-21, 14:54

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Settle down pylon no one is going to take away your Slim Jim’s

I'll eat your meat if you don't want it.

.......

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Post by Other Teams Pursuing That on 2020-05-21, 14:55

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

I'll eat your meat if you don't want it.

.......


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Other Teams Pursuing That
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Post by Other Teams Pursuing That on 2020-05-21, 14:55

Other Teams Pursuing That
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Post by Heat Miser on 2020-05-21, 15:05

steveschneider wrote:
Heathens '87 wrote:The consumption of meat has certainly changed in recent years. Beef...76.4 pounds per capita in 1980. 58.0 in 2019. Pork a corresponding drop. But the market shifted to chicken, turkey and fish. I think the argument here is these market changes are driven more by health concerns than anything ethical.

It's more than a fair argument to suggest there are ethical considerations with all animal consumption and not just ethics directed at the animals themselves. The initial article here frames the ramifications of such choices well. The impact on the poor, racial inequalities, climate change, etc. All 100% true.

Societal change, however, is another matter. I'm still stunned there is littering. The Native American cried in the commercial! Did people not get it?! It's improved, recycling options are better, returnables helped, etc. But change is incremental and evolving.

I could see beef and pork becoming the next candles. You don't need a candle to provide light in your home. It's a different role. Print media is much the same. Evolving. If people really took a look at meat processing, that would be a catalyst for change. I'm not sure what breaks through, but I do think younger people are less likely to eat cheap meat from your fast-food joints. We're already changing. Heck, my eggs are now "cage-free" and organic. Find that in 1980.....


Yeah, when we do cook meat I actually shell out cash for the top quality shit. There's a farm locally where you can buy ethically raised meat that is local. At our farmers market there's a fish stand and the guy you are buying from owns the boat and either him or his partner goes out with his crew and catches the fish. I find it tastes incredible as well. He had a scallop there that was fresh caught the day before. He cut it with a knife and gave it to me so fresh you could eat it raw. Thing tasted like butter. Bought a bunch of them and cooked a nice garlic pasta dish with them so f'n good.

The problem is there is not enough space or money to have everyone eat cage free/ethical/free range meat. There ain't enough range for massive free range.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2020-05-21, 15:09

Nordic wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

I haven't watched it. I will check it out.

For the record, I have never said that I don't eat meat...or that I eat meat. What I do admit to knowing is that meat is murder and that meat (and raw milk) get people riled up around here.


Eating broccoli is broccoliside

You're fucking up, bud.


Plus, broccoli isn’t found anywhere in nature. It’s man made.
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Post by Jake from State Farm on 2020-05-21, 15:10

Heat Miser wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Yeah, when we do cook meat I actually shell out cash for the top quality shit. There's a farm locally where you can buy ethically raised meat that is local. At our farmers market there's a fish stand and the guy you are buying from owns the boat and either him or his partner goes out with his crew and catches the fish. I find it tastes incredible as well. He had a scallop there that was fresh caught the day before. He cut it with a knife and gave it to me so fresh you could eat it raw. Thing tasted like butter. Bought a bunch of them and cooked a nice garlic pasta dish with them so f'n good.

The problem is there is not enough space or money to have everyone eat cage free/ethical/free range meat. There ain't enough range for massive free range.

Oh give me a home, where the buffalo roam, and the skies are not cloudy all day.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2020-05-21, 15:12

Jake from State Farm wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:

The problem is there is not enough space or money to have everyone eat cage free/ethical/free range meat. There ain't enough range for massive free range.

Oh give me a home, where the buffalo roam, and the skies are not cloudy all day.



When this happens, the west will try to steal Great Lakes water for their crops. We’ll resist, and thus begins the water wars. Been predicting it for years.
Fuck Nestle, too.
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Post by Jake from State Farm on 2020-05-21, 15:14

tGreenWay wrote:
Jake from State Farm wrote:

Oh give me a home, where the buffalo roam, and the skies are not cloudy all day.



When this happens, the west will try to steal Great Lakes water for their crops. We’ll resist, and thus begins the water wars. Been predicting it for years.
Fuck Nestle, too.

I'm sure there's plenty of people in this state right now that would give them every drop of water that they could handle.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2020-05-21, 15:28

Jake from State Farm wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:



When this happens, the west will try to steal Great Lakes water for their crops. We’ll resist, and thus begins the water wars. Been predicting it for years.
Fuck Nestle, too.

I'm sure there's plenty of people in this state right now that would give them every drop of water that they could handle.


Then they’ll be sent to the back of the line during the ensuing water rationing.
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-05-21, 15:46

I could easily cut down on meat to 1 or 2 meals a week. My wife and I have been doing more Indian food that gives you legume proteins and makes it taste good. That’s always been my issue with vegetarianism. I love savory flavors and there just aren’t enough of them in most vegetarian dishes. Indian food solves that. More sautéed mushrooms too.
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Post by CORNER BLITZ on 2020-05-21, 15:48

Nordic wrote:
T-neck you watch Game Changers on Netflix? It was pretty good, but still a lot of spin. Eat a well balanced diet of fruits, veggies, nuts, grains and protein. Push for agricultural change to save the environment. Have a beer. Call it a day.

It is a good film from a production standpoint or if you're a vegan and want to feel validated




The problem with most arguments is that it's just dreaming of fantasyland and not thinking 'if this, then...what?' The standard American diet (sad) isn't that great and telling people they are terrible racist climate killers if they eat meat has disaster written all over it. The amount of additional food and supplements needed to cover nutritional deficiencies from cutting out animal foods would be astronomical and missed by many, especially those lower on the economic totem pole
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-05-21, 16:00

“ The amount of additional food and supplements needed to cover nutritional deficiencies from cutting out animal foods would be astronomical and missed by many, especially those lower on the economic totem pole”

I don’t think this is necessarily true. I think you’re right, vilifying meat consumption is stupid, unnecessary, and unproductive, but in the us, we have a food production system that undervalues nutrition and subsidizes meat production. It could be changed slowly. People won’t riot if the cost of meat slowly creeps up if there’s a national strategy to push alternative proteins at the same time. It’s culture and policy. Like everything. Oh geez you mean government's necessary Roc? You’re a socialist!

😐
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 16:08

Rocinante wrote:I could easily cut down on meat to 1 or 2 meals a week. My wife and I have been doing more Indian food that gives you legume proteins and makes it taste good. That’s always been my issue with vegetarianism. I love savory flavors and there just aren’t enough of them in most vegetarian dishes. Indian food solves that. More sautéed mushrooms too.

We cook a lot of Indian food with our instant pot. I think it's one of the most underrated ethnic foods by people in this country.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2020-05-21, 16:12

If this pandemic has proven anything, it’s that there’s a very large percentage of Americans who don’t care about what’s best for everyone, but only what’s best for themselves. And they like being assholes about it.
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Post by Dendrobates on 2020-05-21, 16:42

Nope.

I love meat in my mouth.
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Post by tGreenWay on 2020-05-21, 16:51

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Post by Dendrobates on 2020-05-21, 16:54

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
dude, I don't know. I'm an idiot who hovers right around a third grade reading level.

I'm just saying that once white people stop murdering unarmed black kids.. once the educational system treats minorities and lower income, at risk people with equity, once death row stops murdering low income POC at a significantly higher rate than middle class white people, I'd be happy to entertain cheeseburger eating.

if it's your thing, dude, that's awesome. Seriously. This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 3493939353

I was only asking because I would agree with the latter: that to address the issues you identify the consumption of meat is not where you start. The author simply tries to use serious issues to advance his ethical concerns about eating meat. I agree with him, but do not think a major decrease in the consumption of meat would mean the things you mention are magically addressed.

DWags wrote:

Just so we can have an honest and interesting debate, please list as many industries as you can think of that don't exacerbate the poverty, and racial injustices in America.

That way, we can maybe decide, of all those which are left, who to correct first.  As of now, I can't think of many industries which don't harm the poorest of those in society, but if I had a list of importance, I odn't quite know where I'd put the meat industry.

DWags wrote:

Just so we can have an honest and interesting debate, please list as many industries as you can think of that don't exacerbate the poverty, and racial injustices in America.

That way, we can maybe decide, of all those which are left, who to correct first.  As of now, I can't think of many industries which don't harm the poorest of those in society, but if I had a list of importance, I odn't quite know where I'd put the meat industry.

I think many of them do, but I think this is an interesting topic because it is a much easier choice we can make as individuals.

You are making a big assumption that this is an easy choice for people. I would disagree with that.

There are a lot of things we do in this country that are fucked up. And there’s no way we’re going to all agree and fix things. And we are all more passionate about some more than others. This for me, just isn’t a priority.
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Post by steveschneider on 2020-05-21, 16:58

Dendrobates wrote:Nope.

I love meat in my mouth.

This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 1966794946 This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 1966794946 This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 1966794946 This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 1966794946 This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 1966794946 This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 1966794946 This is not going to go over well here - Page 2 1966794946

Post of the year.
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Post by CORNER BLITZ on 2020-05-21, 17:18

Rocinante wrote:“ The amount of additional food and supplements needed to cover nutritional deficiencies from cutting out animal foods would be astronomical and missed by many, especially those lower on the economic totem pole”

I don’t think this is necessarily true. I think you’re right, vilifying meat consumption is stupid, unnecessary, and unproductive, but in the us, we have a food production system that undervalues nutrition and subsidizes meat production. It could be changed slowly. People won’t riot if the cost of meat slowly creeps up if there’s a national strategy to push alternative proteins at the same time. It’s culture and policy. Like everything. Oh geez you mean government's necessary Roc? You’re a socialist!

😐

Vegetable production also highly subsidized and leads greatly to undermining nutrition through alternative foods somewhat similar to "big meat" subsidizing #thatswhatshesaid

Not a huge Layne Norton fan, but previous and next videos are decent and he does know his shit. Previous was just debunking some "studies" from the film and this one goes further into the film dude roasting some guy that was against the film in a 3+ hour Rogan podcast.





Main part to that and why I said the meat is murder for humans/animals/earth agenda will require supplementation to not create a larger health crisis is around 28:55 of the video or written below from his website https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers-debate-james-wilks-vs-chris-kresser-on-the-joe-rogan-experience/


James states that they are basically in agreement on protein intakes for athletes. Anywhere from 1.0-2.2g/kg body weight or 2.3-3.1g/kg LBM for those in a caloric deficit. He says that he’s shown people can get that eating vegan foods. No James, you demonstrated you could get 18g of protein from a cup of cooked lentils or a peanut butter sandwich. Let’s take an athlete who is 80 kg and they target 1.6g protein/kg BW. That is a total of 128g protein. To get that from say peanut butter sandwiches, you’d need to eat about 7 peanut butter sandwiches to get it. That comes with about ~2900 calories. Doable? Sure. But this omits the fact that peanut butter is a poor scoring protein on the PDCAAS (protein digestibility corrected amino acid score) at 0.7. Wheat Protein from bread is even worse at 0.25

This means that both of these are low quality proteins that do not have the same metabolic impact as higher quality proteins even at the same intake. For example, in my research, we demonstrated that whey and egg white protein were superior to the same amount of wheat protein even when calories and protein were equated. However, if total protein got high enough, it made up the difference but to get protein high enough it had to be 30% of total calories, which is a very high protein diet. [29] That would be 150g on a 2000 calorie diet, juxtapose that with the above example of someone getting only 128g of protein eating peanut butter sandwiches but with a whopping 2900 calories. So yes, vegans can get enough protein from vegan protein sources, but they will need more TOTAL protein to get the same benefits as animal protein due to the lower essential amino acid content and digestibility.

Keep in mind that the studies examining optimal protein intake were NOT in vegans, they were in omnivores, a fact James neglects to mention and Chris fails to bring up. So while 1.6g/kg bodyweight protein intake may be optimal for omnivores, it is likely that vegans will require more than that. Based on our data and a little bit of opinion, probably about 10-40% more based on the differences in leucine contents of plant vs. animal sources of protein. That would take our athlete consuming 128g protein up to ~150g protein or possibly way more per day

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Post by DWags on 2020-05-21, 17:23

Dendrobates wrote:Nope.

I love meat in my mouth.

Have you ever had those Schweddy balls in your mouth around christmas? They looked very good on T.V.
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Post by Rocinante on 2020-05-21, 17:47

CB:
I guess I’m taking about regular people, not athletes. American bodies are certainly over caloried on the whole which is obvious if anyone just looks at us.

And I’m no vegetarian, I’m just stating that if properly coordinated, we could reduce the perceived need of the amount of meat in our diets.
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Post by CORNER BLITZ on 2020-05-21, 18:15

True, but regular people still require protein and at greater amounts as they age. That does not come as easily through products compared to real food and then even less easily through vegan "foods"

And to your point people would say "I'm not an athlete so I don't need/want to add a (very expensive) vegan protein shake to my diet".... but that will be the opposite of the case for most.
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Post by Dendrobates on 2020-05-21, 19:20

DWags wrote:
Dendrobates wrote:Nope.

I love meat in my mouth.

Have you ever had those Schweddy balls in your mouth around christmas? They looked very good on T.V.

It’s not Christmas if there aren’t any Schweddy balls.
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