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Coronavirus - The Political Side

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Post by Turtleneck on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 10:02

Obama and Biden!!!!!!! They are to blame. They stopped testing for a disease that didn’t exist at the time!

[tw]1282752545140637697?s=21[/tw]
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Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 10:18

I'm back to laughing.

So no one here has a WSJ sub?
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Post by Turtleneck on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 10:37

Stop being OTPT subtlety asking people to share their League Pass login info.
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Post by Turtleneck on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 10:37

Maybe he wasn’t that subtle. Can’t remember.
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Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 10:49

Travis would post the article for me.
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Post by Turtleneck on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 10:51

Well Travis isn’t here, is he? Today is Tuesday. He does pit maintenance on Tuesdays.

I don’t have a subscription either, but what’s the article?
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Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 10:57

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Anyone have a WSJ sub and willing to post the opinion piece by Gottlieb today about schools reopening?
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Post by Turtleneck on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 11:11

Google “Wall Street journal gottleib.” Click on link to article in search results.
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Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 11:19

Thank you Turtle. That helped tremendously.

It's no big deal, I'm pretty sure I understand the basis I would just be curious to hear his thoughts in more detail. I thought I remembered some folks here talking about having subs to some of these.

Coronavirus - The Political Side - Page 4 RkBlliD
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Post by Turtleneck on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 11:21

Clicking through Google worked for me.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 12:51

Turtleneck wrote:Well Travis isn’t here, is he? Today is Tuesday. He does pit maintenance on Tuesdays.

I don’t have a subscription either, but what’s the article?

Hey boo

Gottlieb, not the credit card one the other one wrote:

Schools should open in the fall. It’s critical for meeting the educational and social needs of children. But local officials should have the discretion to take tailored actions to help keep children safe. One thing about Covid-19 is clear: We don’t fully understand its severity and transmission. At various turns, we’ve both underestimated and overestimated the virus.

The debate over schools has been swept up in a political maelstrom. Reopening schools will draw more controversy if people believe their school district was forced into opening. I’ve talked to Republican and Democratic governors about their strategies. The commitment to reopening is universal. Their approach is appropriately varied to local conditions.

The main risk is transmission inside school buildings, but there are ways to reduce the chance of a big outbreak. Germany and Norway reopened schools with stringent precautions such as distancing and masking. But when Israel reopened schools, large outbreaks followed.

In my home state, Connecticut, K-12 students will be required to wear masks. Many districts are attempting to change the structure of the week to make classrooms less crowded. New York City and other districts are contemplating staggered schedules, in which students would spend some days in the classroom and others at home.

The use of hand-washing stations will be routine. Desks will be farther apart. Teachers should be given protective equipment. Colleges are using pooled testing of students and teachers to reduce risk, and this practice could be adopted widely. These measures are costly, and districts will need financial and technical support. Reopening schools will also require keeping outbreaks under control. It would be more difficult to reopen safely in Florida right now than Massachusetts. Prevalence matters.

Some will ask why it’s worth bothering with all these precautions. These critics argue that children are virtually impervious to catching and spreading the virus and rarely get seriously ill even when infected.

The evidence is varied. Many studies do show children are less susceptible to catching and spreading the virus. Less than 10% of reported infections in Germany, Italy and the U.S. have been in people under 18. It’s possible that because children typically get milder cases of Covid, they are less likely to spread the virus through sneezing and coughing.

Yet some studies have found that children may be as likely as adults to become infected, partly because kids have more close contacts. And virus levels in their respiratory droplets can be just as high as for adults. The evidence is still emerging, and credible studies can be marshaled to support both more and less caution.

Then there is the question of severity. When children are infected, there is wide agreement that they are less likely to get seriously ill compared with adults. But lower risk does not mean no risk.

The number of children hospitalized with serious Covid in the U.S. is small. But the largest study of 2,100 pediatric Covid patients from China found that 5% of children developed severe disease with low blood oxygen; 0.6% became more critically ill with respiratory failure, shock or multiple organ dysfunction. Researchers in the U.S. are also investigating a rare inflammatory syndrome related to infection that can make children seriously ill and damage their hearts.

In arguing that Covid is benign in children, some compare it with the flu, which in 2018-19 tragically claimed about 480 children’s lives in America. Yet that year flu caused 11.3 million cases of symptomatic illness in children. The rates of Covid infection are likely much lower, as children were deliberately shielded from much of the risk. We don’t know what the data would look like if the novel coronavirus spread as widely in children as the flu. We should adopt reasonable measures in schools so that we never have to find out.

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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 12:52

By the way I think that’s stupid bullshit and an ad for his companies more than an op ed. “ He serves on the boards of Pfizer and Illumina“
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Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 13:12

Thank you Travis.

It was fine imo. I agree with him that it's critical and should happen, I'm just not sure that it can. I'm curious what he means by pooled testing, this is a concept I'm not familiar with. I will do some research.

The problem I can't come to grips with is that outbreaks are going to occur without stringent testing and we have neither the stringent up front testing nor on the back end of those outbreaks to contain and resume activity. Perhaps that is where the pooled testing comes into play but, I don't know.
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Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 13:19

Ok that's kind of laughable to think that we could do that in schools and that we are ready to implement.

Still not enough tests.

Not the right kind of tests (they are not nasal swabbing first graders every two weeks)

Test results are still slow

Each child is exposed to x number of other people every day in their home who you would assume have some contact with the outside world

No plan to manage an outbreak
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Post by Turtleneck on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 13:21

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:Well Travis isn’t here, is he? Today is Tuesday. He does pit maintenance on Tuesdays.

I don’t have a subscription either, but what’s the article?

Hey boo

Gottlieb, not the credit card one the other one wrote:

Schools should open in the fall. It’s critical for meeting the educational and social needs of children. But local officials should have the discretion to take tailored actions to help keep children safe. One thing about Covid-19 is clear: We don’t fully understand its severity and transmission. At various turns, we’ve both underestimated and overestimated the virus.

The debate over schools has been swept up in a political maelstrom. Reopening schools will draw more controversy if people believe their school district was forced into opening. I’ve talked to Republican and Democratic governors about their strategies. The commitment to reopening is universal. Their approach is appropriately varied to local conditions.

The main risk is transmission inside school buildings, but there are ways to reduce the chance of a big outbreak. Germany and Norway reopened schools with stringent precautions such as distancing and masking. But when Israel reopened schools, large outbreaks followed.

In my home state, Connecticut, K-12 students will be required to wear masks. Many districts are attempting to change the structure of the week to make classrooms less crowded. New York City and other districts are contemplating staggered schedules, in which students would spend some days in the classroom and others at home.

The use of hand-washing stations will be routine. Desks will be farther apart. Teachers should be given protective equipment. Colleges are using pooled testing of students and teachers to reduce risk, and this practice could be adopted widely. These measures are costly, and districts will need financial and technical support. Reopening schools will also require keeping outbreaks under control. It would be more difficult to reopen safely in Florida right now than Massachusetts. Prevalence matters.

Some will ask why it’s worth bothering with all these precautions. These critics argue that children are virtually impervious to catching and spreading the virus and rarely get seriously ill even when infected.

The evidence is varied. Many studies do show children are less susceptible to catching and spreading the virus. Less than 10% of reported infections in Germany, Italy and the U.S. have been in people under 18. It’s possible that because children typically get milder cases of Covid, they are less likely to spread the virus through sneezing and coughing.

Yet some studies have found that children may be as likely as adults to become infected, partly because kids have more close contacts. And virus levels in their respiratory droplets can be just as high as for adults. The evidence is still emerging, and credible studies can be marshaled to support both more and less caution.

Then there is the question of severity. When children are infected, there is wide agreement that they are less likely to get seriously ill compared with adults. But lower risk does not mean no risk.

The number of children hospitalized with serious Covid in the U.S. is small. But the largest study of 2,100 pediatric Covid patients from China found that 5% of children developed severe disease with low blood oxygen; 0.6% became more critically ill with respiratory failure, shock or multiple organ dysfunction. Researchers in the U.S. are also investigating a rare inflammatory syndrome related to infection that can make children seriously ill and damage their hearts.

In arguing that Covid is benign in children, some compare it with the flu, which in 2018-19 tragically claimed about 480 children’s lives in America. Yet that year flu caused 11.3 million cases of symptomatic illness in children. The rates of Covid infection are likely much lower, as children were deliberately shielded from much of the risk. We don’t know what the data would look like if the novel coronavirus spread as widely in children as the flu. We should adopt reasonable measures in schools so that we never have to find out.


What are basketball Gottlieb's hot takes on coronavirus?
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 13:24

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Post by MiamiSpartan on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 14:08

OK, so according to that article, 10% of cases are children. In a Chinese study, 0.6% get critically ill (I know it's mixing the numbers of one study/area with another, but let's use those for the sake of argument). If we got some extremely reliable intelligence that 10% of all schools would be attacked by a gunman during this school year. And at each of those schools, 0.6% of the kids would be shot. Who sends their kids to school, especially with no changes to the safety protocols?

Maybe that's a shitty example, but my point is that the "low percentages" of children in danger still equates to a fucking hell of a lot of kids. Out of about 60 million school children in this country, that's 36,000 kids that would get critically ill.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 14:09

should be noted that the patriotic christian republicans don't care about our children..

or anyone else, really.
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Post by MiamiSpartan on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 14:12

Also, lost in a lot of the talk of children, is the fact that a high schooler is physically a hell of a lot closer to an adult than kid in 1st grade.  It isn't like your lungs, heart, immune system, etc., suddenly flips a switch on your 18th birthday and behaves differently.  There's a study (and Gottlieb may have been referring to this one in his article) that says that while the chances in kids 0-5 getting it is really low, the chances of kids 10-17 getting it is about the same as people 18-29.  

We also have to remember that it may very well be that there aren't a lot of cases in kids because they HAVEN'T been in school since mid-March.  They haven't been going and hanging out with friends as soon as restrictions loosened a bit.  We've been able to control where the kids are, who they're around, and what they do.  There simply isn't data on what happens when schools open if there is active community spread going on.  Schools in South Korea or Germany couldn't be more irrelevant to the current situation that many areas in the US are facing.
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Post by kingstonlake on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 14:40

Help me out. The market is currently trading on a house of cards right? Unemployment 10% (obviously people going back to work and taking a pay cut soon). A huge number of those unemployed have had their income doubled for four months. It has to nose dive, right? Once the stimulus ends the reckoning comes, right?
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Post by WhiteBoyHatcher on Tue 14 Jul 2020 - 23:48

MiamiSpartan wrote:Also, lost in a lot of the talk of children, is the fact that a high schooler is physically a hell of a lot closer to an adult than kid in 1st grade.  It isn't like your lungs, heart, immune system, etc., suddenly flips a switch on your 18th birthday and behaves differently.  There's a study (and Gottlieb may have been referring to this one in his article) that says that while the chances in kids 0-5 getting it is really low, the chances of kids 10-17 getting it is about the same as people 18-29.  

We also have to remember that it may very well be that there aren't a lot of cases in kids because they HAVEN'T been in school since mid-March.  They haven't been going and hanging out with friends as soon as restrictions loosened a bit.  We've been able to control where the kids are, who they're around, and what they do.  There simply isn't data on what happens when schools open if there is active community spread going on.  Schools in South Korea or Germany couldn't be more irrelevant to the current situation that many areas in the US are facing.

Agree totally. I've been talking this out with my wife and friends more and more over the past few days. I can't see it happening. I can see it *starting* under the best of intentions but it's all going to go to shit when someone tests positive. And I do see a big barrier to starting the teacher's union - though I don't know how many of them are making noise? I am tight with some teachers and I don't see a lot of it but that's anecdotal. Wake where are you at on this? Wags?

There are simply too many unknowns here. I know that a certain segment of the population wants to say fuck it, risk is low, life goes on (oversimplifying, but gist) but a majority of families, communities, school districts are not going to accept that risk. I feel that the stakes are high for my kids (they need the social/emotional component of in person at their age) and I really want in person school and I'm willing to take on some risk, but until you can show me a mitigation plan in terms of what happens when positive tests occur, I don't think I can send my kids back.

Miami please keep us updated in terms of what is happening there as I know you all are 3-4 weeks ahead of us, and I suspect DeSantis is going to be willing to accept more of that risk than we will here.
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Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 1:08

It's not DeSantis' choice statewide. Even the thing that his head of education sent out "ordering" all schools open 5 days/week apparently had a lot of wiggle room and local districts to be partially online, or even all online if local factors dictate. Since March, DeSantis has tried to pass the buck to the counties and cities so that he doesn't have to take direct responsibility. Dade and Broward superintendents have said they aren't opening in person classes if things are like they are now.

Both Dade and Broward county public schools have surveyed their parents and there doesn't seem a clear consensus about in person, online, or a hybrid, based on what's been reported. My daughter's school is private so it doesn't fall under those, and will be sending their own survey in the coming days. They had already sent a 3 page letter outlining all of the measures they've taken should kids go in person at all, and those seem pretty good. So I'm glad they have a plan, and as long as they enforce the restrictions, I MIGHT be able to live with a hybrid model (pending some more details), but would prefer all online, at least to start the year.
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Post by kingstonlake on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 7:32

My daughter will be going into first grade. How in the hell is a teacher supposed to do there job and make sure 25 kids are six feet apart all day? Impossible. Frankly I’m more worried about what’s going on in her classmates everyday life that they will be bringing to school. I live in a “fuck your feelings I ain’t wearing no mask” county. Ripe with pick em up trucks proudly flying their trump and hybrid American confederate flags in the bed. I think it was mentioned here earlier. It’s hard to gauge spread from children being that they haven’t been to school since March. So much unknown. I’m strongly considering some sort of home schooling this year.
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Post by DWags on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 8:27

kingstonlake wrote:My daughter will be going into first grade. How in the hell is a teacher supposed to do there job and make sure 25 kids are six feet apart all day? Impossible. Frankly I’m more worried about what’s going on in her classmates everyday life that they will be bringing to school. I live in a “fuck your feelings I ain’t wearing no mask” county. Ripe with pick em up trucks proudly flying their trump and hybrid American confederate flags in the bed. I think it was mentioned here earlier. It’s hard to gauge spread from children being that they haven’t been to school since March. So much unknown. I’m strongly considering some sort of home schooling this year.

Tough decisions for the family. Sorry about that. I'm glad the kids are in their 20's and by the time they have kids, I don't think I"ll have to worry about this. I still know quite a few administrators. Many of them dont' know how the hell this is going to work yet. It's July 15th and that light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming . I 'm serious, I've corresponded with some and they have "plans" and all of them tell me that most likely none will really work out 100%. I honestly think K-12 will not happen till 2021 January. We are going to hear some screaming from everyone starting at the end of this month. Here's the one thing you have over many people. You will have a background in education and how to deliver it that many people wont. Many kids will be almost a full year behind, plus the baggage of years behind they came into school with. There is going to be a real problem with that as not having them in seats in school will be a bigger problem than many think it will. Good luck Kingston, you'll do what's best for your kid.
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Post by kingstonlake on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 8:33

DWags wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:My daughter will be going into first grade. How in the hell is a teacher supposed to do there job and make sure 25 kids are six feet apart all day? Impossible. Frankly I’m more worried about what’s going on in her classmates everyday life that they will be bringing to school. I live in a “fuck your feelings I ain’t wearing no mask” county. Ripe with pick em up trucks proudly flying their trump and hybrid American confederate flags in the bed. I think it was mentioned here earlier. It’s hard to gauge spread from children being that they haven’t been to school since March. So much unknown. I’m strongly considering some sort of home schooling this year.

Tough decisions for the family. Sorry about that. I'm glad the kids are in their 20's and by the time they have kids, I don't think I"ll have to worry about this. I still know quite a few administrators. Many of them dont' know how the hell this is going to work yet. It's July 15th and that light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming . I 'm serious, I've corresponded with some and they have "plans" and all of them tell me that most likely none will really work out 100%. I honestly think K-12 will not happen till 2021 January. We are going to hear some screaming from everyone starting at the end of this month. Here's the one thing you have over many people. You will have a background in education and how to deliver it that many people wont. Many kids will be almost a full year behind, plus the baggage of years behind they came into school with. There is going to be a real problem with that as not having them in seats in school will be a bigger problem than many think it will. Good luck Kingston, you'll do what's best for your kid.

Thanks buddy. In the end it’s on the parents to do what’s best and take responsibility. Might require a slight change in lifestyle. Is that really a big deal though? I mean what kind of idiot would complain about having to spend more time with their kids.
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 10:01

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Post by MiamiSpartan on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 11:28

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:https://news.yahoo.com/hospitals-told-send-coronavirus-data-064649924.html

Sweet dictator move Bunker Bitch.


While everyone is freaking out about this, many of the stories and articles about it obscure some important information mentioned in the NYT article.

For example: "However, if hospitals were already reporting such information to their states, they could continue to do so if they received a written release saying the state would handle reporting."

Since every state has it's own data that it makes public, I think that will continue to be the case. Granted, how and what states provide varies, and to compile it for the country, might mean getting it from all 50 states. But to a large extent, I think they already do.

Also, the main source that the media uses, as well as most of the data sites that I see, are from Johns Hopkins. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think JH just pulls it from the CDC. On their site, they say that their data is based on information from the CSSE (a JH department), the Red Cross, and others. It doesn't mention the CDC. But it also might be certain specific, more granular data, that JH doesn't compile. I know hospitalizations, available beds, etc., are a big part of this data that has people concerned, and I'm not sure if the numbers the media gets on that is from JH or not.

Let's also not let the outrage obscure the fact that the CDC collection IS actually problematic. The NYT article discusses a lot of the problems with it, and most experts seem to agree that it needs to be streamlined. That doesn't make the HHS the ones to do it, of course, but it was a system with problems.

Transparency needs to be demanded, and hopefully there will be enough pressure from the media and lawmakers to make the new HHS site publicly accessible.

Here's the NYT link if anyone is interested: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html
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Post by kingstonlake on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 12:06

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:https://news.yahoo.com/hospitals-told-send-coronavirus-data-064649924.html

Sweet dictator move Bunker Bitch.


Transparency needs to be demanded, and hopefully there will be enough pressure from the media and lawmakers to make the new HHS site publicly accessible.

Here's the NYT link if anyone is interested:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html

That’ll scare the transparency right out of them. lol!
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 12:15

I suspect we'll find out from our 'pro life' christian president that mortality/transmission rates are starting to plummet.. Coronavirus - The Political Side - Page 4 502811600
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Wed 15 Jul 2020 - 12:21

the Governor of Oklahoma tested positive for the hoax.. in a shocking turn of events, he was at the white supremacist rally a few weeks ago in Tulsa.

sometimes bad things happen to bad people.
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Post by msugolfguy on Thu 16 Jul 2020 - 6:15

I'm mildly surprised we haven't reached the death toll yet to have a investigation by Republicans on our response to this Virus. Heck with Bengazhi it took only a week and Ted Gowdy was ready to roll.
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Post by GRR Spartan on Thu 16 Jul 2020 - 7:34

Anyone else bothered by the fact the NBA can partner with Disney/ESPN/TNT and see all the people assigned to their “bubble“ get almost immediate testing with results coming back in days, not weeks or a month while a vast majority in rest of the country line up for hours to be tested waiting weeks for results?
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Post by kingstonlake on Thu 16 Jul 2020 - 7:59

GRR Spartan wrote:Anyone else bothered by the fact the NBA can partner with Disney/ESPN/TNT and see all the people assigned to their “bubble“ get almost immediate testing with results coming back in days, not weeks or a month while a vast majority in rest of the country line up for hours to be tested waiting weeks for results?

Bothered? Not really. But hardly surprising. Sadly were just a numb society now. We accept school shootings as a just a wacky kinda once in a while type deal. A president using the Oval Office as his own personal QVC. Directing data flow on a pandemic through a task for Headed by his son in law who sells real estate. A education secretary who never attended a public school in her life and no qualifications to do so. Meddling in military affairs to road block a mans promotion to colonel for following the letter of the law.

The list goes on and on.

Preferred treatment of athletes hardly registers my man. Coronavirus - The Political Side - Page 4 2599972566
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Thu 16 Jul 2020 - 8:18

msugolfguy wrote:I'm mildly surprised we haven't reached the death toll yet to have a investigation by Republicans on our response to this Virus. Heck with Bengazhi it took only a week and Ted Gowdy was ready to roll.
you'd almost think that the christian republicans didn't.. {gulp}.. care about the sanctity of human life.
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Post by kingstonlake on Thu 16 Jul 2020 - 12:21

Coronavirus - The Political Side - Page 4 B6768d10
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Post by GRR Spartan on Thu 16 Jul 2020 - 21:38

In the Karma’s a Bitch Department

Chuck Woolery, whose Twitter “Everybody is lying about COVID” rant was retweeted by President Trump has deleted his Twitter account. After his son tested positive for COVID-19.

https://news.yahoo.com/chuck-woolery-says-everyone-lying-190516391.html
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Fri 17 Jul 2020 - 5:30

GRR Spartan wrote:In the Karma’s a Bitch Department

Chuck Woolery, whose Twitter “Everybody is lying about COVID” rant was retweeted by President Trump has deleted his Twitter account. After his son tested positive for COVID-19.

https://news.yahoo.com/chuck-woolery-says-everyone-lying-190516391.html
Coronavirus - The Political Side - Page 4 502811600

Gotta love it when our leading authority on science and epidemiology is also the former host of Love Connection.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Tue 21 Jul 2020 - 6:13

The racist, bigoted christian sexual predator is starting his white supremacist rallies again today, labeling them as "cornivirus briefings".. I suspect the mainstream media will be covering them like the good lapdogs they are.

I wonder if Dr. Scarf will be there nodding and smiling?
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Post by Floyd Robertson on Tue 21 Jul 2020 - 7:22

Robert J Sakimano wrote:The racist, bigoted christian sexual predator is starting his white supremacist rallies again today, labeling them as "cornivirus briefings".. I suspect the mainstream media will be covering them like the good lapdogs they are.

I wonder if Dr. Scarf will be there nodding and smiling?

You know Trump is only doing this because he's trailing Biden by a gazillion points, largely because he's fucked this up so much.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Tue 21 Jul 2020 - 9:08

Floyd Robertson wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:The racist, bigoted christian sexual predator is starting his white supremacist rallies again today, labeling them as "cornivirus briefings".. I suspect the mainstream media will be covering them like the good lapdogs they are.

I wonder if Dr. Scarf will be there nodding and smiling?

You know Trump is only doing this because he's trailing Biden by a gazillion points, largely because he's fucked this up so much.
oh yeah.

And he watched everyone mocking his interview from the weekend where a member of the mainstream media finally did their job and make him look like the bloated piece of sweaty pathetic trash that he is.

It's total damage control and I suspect he'll implode, as usual.
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