Dueling Realities
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tGreenWay
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Dueling Realities
Obama was on CBS Sunday Morning interviewed by Gayle King and in it he expressed his concern about the 'alternative world view' that these voters are consuming. He made a point that it's very hard for our democracy to function if we are operating on completely different sets of facts.
Yesterday during the Million Maga March Proud Boys were chanting 'Fuck Fox news'.
MAGA's are fleeing Fox for Newsmax and OAN to consume news where Trump won the last election and reporting that feeds this alt reality (and we get accused of being snow flakes/cancel culture). They are also jumping off Twitter to join Parler to make a hyper partisan echo chamber where this false reality exists. In short I think we are fucked.
Yesterday during the Million Maga March Proud Boys were chanting 'Fuck Fox news'.
MAGA's are fleeing Fox for Newsmax and OAN to consume news where Trump won the last election and reporting that feeds this alt reality (and we get accused of being snow flakes/cancel culture). They are also jumping off Twitter to join Parler to make a hyper partisan echo chamber where this false reality exists. In short I think we are fucked.
steveschneider- Spartiate
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Re: Dueling Realities
steveschneider wrote:Obama was on CBS Sunday Morning interviewed by Gayle King and in it he expressed his concern about the 'alternative world view' that these voters are consuming. He made a point that it's very hard for our democracy to function if we are operating on completely different sets of facts.
Yesterday during the Million Maga March Proud Boys were chanting 'Fuck Fox news'.
MAGA's are fleeing Fox for Newsmax and OAN to consume news where Trump won the last election and reporting that feeds this alt reality (and we get accused of being snow flakes/cancel culture). They are also jumping off Twitter to join Parler to make a hyper partisan echo chamber where this false reality exists. In short I think we are fucked.
I've made that point before, but when some dude that was in charge of the country once says it, NOW people take notice.
But it isn't just our democracy, it is basic discourse that can't get anywhere if people don't agree on the basic facts. And it goes beyond politics. It is basically one if those products of so many different information sources that people have access to that they can find whatever echo chamber they want.
MiamiSpartan- Geronte
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Re: Dueling Realities
Stop complaining. It’s not like you will do one damn thing to make it better, Andre.
Turtleneck- Geronte
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Re: Dueling Realities
steveschneider wrote:Obama was on CBS Sunday Morning interviewed by Gayle King and in it he expressed his concern about the 'alternative world view' that these voters are consuming. He made a point that it's very hard for our democracy to function if we are operating on completely different sets of facts.
Yesterday during the Million Maga March Proud Boys were chanting 'Fuck Fox news'.
MAGA's are fleeing Fox for Newsmax and OAN to consume news where Trump won the last election and reporting that feeds this alt reality (and we get accused of being snow flakes/cancel culture). They are also jumping off Twitter to join Parler to make a hyper partisan echo chamber where this false reality exists. In short I think we are fucked.
Fine by me. Compartmentalize the loonies on a different platform so they don't convert any other apolitical rubes.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Problem is one of the dueling realities believes in far out conspiracies.
Obama also noted that you have large swaths of the country that genuinely believe the dnc is a front for a pedophile ring. You have another chunk that believes the election was stolen. This is the alt reality we have to contend with.
"The man, Edgar Maddison Welch, drove on Dec. 4 from his hometown, Salisbury, N.C., to the Comet Ping Pong restaurant with three guns. He was investigating unfounded but widespread online reports of children held there in a child abuse scheme led by Hillary Clinton, a theory known as “Pizzagate.” But Mr. Welch, who pleaded guilty to federal weapons charges in March, rescued no children. Rather, he frightened employees and patrons, who panicked and ran.""
"Mr. Welch surrendered after the episode and almost immediately apologized, saying he had made an “incredibly ill-advised decision” to try to save endangered children who were never there. "
Obama also noted that you have large swaths of the country that genuinely believe the dnc is a front for a pedophile ring. You have another chunk that believes the election was stolen. This is the alt reality we have to contend with.
"The man, Edgar Maddison Welch, drove on Dec. 4 from his hometown, Salisbury, N.C., to the Comet Ping Pong restaurant with three guns. He was investigating unfounded but widespread online reports of children held there in a child abuse scheme led by Hillary Clinton, a theory known as “Pizzagate.” But Mr. Welch, who pleaded guilty to federal weapons charges in March, rescued no children. Rather, he frightened employees and patrons, who panicked and ran.""
"Mr. Welch surrendered after the episode and almost immediately apologized, saying he had made an “incredibly ill-advised decision” to try to save endangered children who were never there. "
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Re: Dueling Realities
Social dilemma
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Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Social dilemma
That documentary was powerful. Obama did note in his 60 Minutes interview that a lot of the divide, extremism, etc he saw well before the social media boom.
In that Stetler link I posted above he talks about the increasing demand for this stuff and asks the question where is the demand coming from?
I think it's the disease/rot in our society. Overpopulation, rising costs of living, flat wages, automation, greater inequality, decline in education etc. When you have an ill society I think the rampant spread of conspiracies is a symptom.
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steveschneider wrote:Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Social dilemma
That documentary was powerful. Obama did note in his 60 Minutes interview that a lot of the divide, extremism, etc he saw well before the social media boom.
In that Stetler link I posted above he talks about the increasing demand for this stuff and asks the question where is the demand coming from?
I think it's the disease/rot in our society. Overpopulation, rising costs of living, flat wages, automation, greater inequality, decline in education etc. When you have an ill society I think the rampant spread of conspiracies is a symptom.
Obama has to say that. He’s part of the machine.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Maybe we see a continuing strong 2nd wave followed by a 3rd wave and the alternative facts believers die off faster than they can be replaced.
The MAGA demographics are very lopsided towards 55+.
The MAGA demographics are very lopsided towards 55+.
Last edited by GRR Spartan on 2020-11-18, 14:58; edited 1 time in total
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https://www.newsweek.com/south-dakota-nurses-tweets-about-covid-positive-patients-who-dont-believe-virus-go-viral-1547727
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Re: Dueling Realities
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
Fine by me. Compartmentalize the loonies on a different platform so they don't convert any other apolitical rubes.
Yeah, keep it away from my mom. Hopefully it eats itself. These boobs have their own squirrely little world to pass around the dumb limits their effect on the dense (but well meaning) which is probably 60% of them.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Social dilemma
I would say the real problem starts at the top.
The U.S. is more complex and diverse than ever before. This complexity and diversity creates a more ideologically divided society. However, U.S. political institutions make ideological division worse by incentivizing fierce competition over cooperation; they are not designed to channel strong ideological energies. First past the post voting gives us two dominant parties. The two-party system worked well when the parties, at least on the national level, had significant overlap and informally agreed not to address major cultural issues (the myth of the "post racial" society).
That overlap is gone and we can no longer ignore cultural issues. As people become more ideological so do our politics and political parties, which then drag people further apart. It is quite circular. When two ideologically distant parties fight over a thin majority, bipartisanship and compromise disappear and each side treats politics like a fight for survival against a sworn enemy. It is no longer about producing good policy, but is instead about beating your enemy in a win at all costs game.
Of course we cannot agree on basic facts. When the other side is now your enemy rather than just opposition, you will believe anything if you think it will help destroy your enemy. That is where we are at. Until people get on board - and I mean actually join reform movements and pressure lawmakers - for serious institutional reform, none of this changes. It actually just gets worse until democracy is dead. If we do not seriously consider a multi-party democracy, something I have been hesitant about in the past, where people can channel their ideological energies and feel represented, just expect people with partisan divides to see each other as the enemy and believe whatever makes them comfortable.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Turtleneck
Both sides have there heads so far up their ass they can't see their own shit.
Both sides have there heads so far up their ass they can't see their own shit.
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Nordic wrote: Turtleneck
Both sides have there heads so far up their ass they can't see their own shit.
For the record, I do think one side is far more invested in playing for keeps than the other.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Ranked choice voting, plz.
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So long as Facebook can direct news feeds as it chooses and algorithms to fine tune the information buffet it will not change. Possibly get worse.
My sister-in-law and her husband live in the UP. Are socially dependent on Facebook. It’s how they communicate and keep up with most family and friends. Many of those friends and a majority of family who are Facebook dependent have morphed into Trump “conservatives” believing the “news” Facebook presents them.
Facebook is very good at what it does. It identifies common interests based on a multitude of data, individualizes all the data to customize your Facebook feeds and suggestions.
It’s why two 60 something retirees who use Facebook daily have different news feeds being delivered to each and suggestions to join other interest groups. The husband (who isn’t a Trumpite yet) has some Facebook friends who are and Facebook bombards him with group suggestions. His news feed started getting more appearances from FoxNews, OAN, Breitbart entries while CNN, AP and more mainstream sources dropped. Not by his request. Facebook friends and interest groups like hunting and fishing he joined are part of that demo that supported Trump by 70%+ hence he starts getting more of their news.
My sister-in-law and her husband live in the UP. Are socially dependent on Facebook. It’s how they communicate and keep up with most family and friends. Many of those friends and a majority of family who are Facebook dependent have morphed into Trump “conservatives” believing the “news” Facebook presents them.
Facebook is very good at what it does. It identifies common interests based on a multitude of data, individualizes all the data to customize your Facebook feeds and suggestions.
It’s why two 60 something retirees who use Facebook daily have different news feeds being delivered to each and suggestions to join other interest groups. The husband (who isn’t a Trumpite yet) has some Facebook friends who are and Facebook bombards him with group suggestions. His news feed started getting more appearances from FoxNews, OAN, Breitbart entries while CNN, AP and more mainstream sources dropped. Not by his request. Facebook friends and interest groups like hunting and fishing he joined are part of that demo that supported Trump by 70%+ hence he starts getting more of their news.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Turtleneck wrote:Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Social dilemma
I would say the real problem starts at the top.
The U.S. is more complex and diverse than ever before. This complexity and diversity creates a more ideologically divided society. However, U.S. political institutions make ideological division worse by incentivizing fierce competition over cooperation; they are not designed to channel strong ideological energies. First past the post voting gives us two dominant parties. The two-party system worked well when the parties, at least on the national level, had significant overlap and informally agreed not to address major cultural issues (the myth of the "post racial" society).
That overlap is gone and we can no longer ignore cultural issues. As people become more ideological so do our politics and political parties, which then drag people further apart. It is quite circular. When two ideologically distant parties fight over a thin majority, bipartisanship and compromise disappear and each side treats politics like a fight for survival against a sworn enemy. It is no longer about producing good policy, but is instead about beating your enemy in a win at all costs game.
Of course we cannot agree on basic facts. When the other side is now your enemy rather than just opposition, you will believe anything if you think it will help destroy your enemy. That is where we are at. Until people get on board - and I mean actually join reform movements and pressure lawmakers - for serious institutional reform, none of this changes. It actually just gets worse until democracy is dead. If we do not seriously consider a multi-party democracy, something I have been hesitant about in the past, where people can channel their ideological energies and feel represented, just expect people with partisan divides to see each other as the enemy and believe whatever makes them comfortable.
Good post. I feel like Obama touched upon some of your points in the 60 Minutes interview which is well worth the watch just to hear his perspective on our nations challenges . Ultimately I have a different take, I think we have a critically ill system that is in decline. Short answer I think greed and stupidity have done us in.
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Re: Dueling Realities
GRR Spartan wrote:So long as Facebook can direct news feeds as it chooses and algorithms to fine tune the information buffet it will not change. Possibly get worse.
My sister-in-law and her husband live in the UP. Are socially dependent on Facebook. It’s how they communicate and keep up with most family and friends. Many of those friends and a majority of family who are Facebook dependent have morphed into Trump “conservatives” believing the “news” Facebook presents them.
Facebook is very good at what it does. It identifies common interests based on a multitude of data, individualizes all the data to customize your Facebook feeds and suggestions.
It’s why two 60 something retirees who use Facebook daily have different news feeds being delivered to each and suggestions to join other interest groups. The husband (who isn’t a Trumpite yet) has some Facebook friends who are and Facebook bombards him with group suggestions. His news feed started getting more appearances from FoxNews, OAN, Breitbart entries while CNN, AP and more mainstream sources dropped. Not by his request. Facebook friends and interest groups like hunting and fishing he joined are part of that demo that supported Trump by 70%+ hence he starts getting more of their news.
My old roommate said at his brother in laws architect firm there's a Qanon guy that's about to get fired. He talks about it at work. In town I frequent this local coffee shop and this barista has fallen down the Qanon hole and he lost his job.
---
"The man, Edgar Maddison Welch, drove on Dec. 4 from his hometown, Salisbury, N.C., to the Comet Ping Pong restaurant with three guns. He was investigating unfounded but widespread online reports of children held there in a child abuse scheme led by Hillary Clinton, a theory known as “Pizzagate.” "
"Mr. Welch surrendered after the episode and almost immediately apologized, saying he had made an “incredibly ill-advised decision” to try to save endangered children who were never there."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/us/pizzagate-attack-sentence.html
And yesterday, we see the horrifying story about the nurse from South Dakota who had to put a patient on a ventilator that was in complete denial that Covid even existed. Instead of calling their family and loved ones they argued with the nurse that it wasn't real.
These are red flags. I feel like Luke Wilson's character in Idiocracy, who tries to get the nation to stop using a sports drink to irrigate their crops - 'I'm not the brightest guy but I think if you just read the NYT instead of the stuff you see on Facebook this wouldn't be happening'.
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Re: Dueling Realities
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/17/935655874/many-challenges-arise-when-people-doubt-pandemics-threat
This is a good listen. These folks from northwestern Mio (or Montana) definitely have a different reality, and it is politically driven when you get to the bottom of it.
This is a good listen. These folks from northwestern Mio (or Montana) definitely have a different reality, and it is politically driven when you get to the bottom of it.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Turtleneck wrote:https://www.npr.org/2020/11/17/935655874/many-challenges-arise-when-people-doubt-pandemics-threat
This is a good listen. These folks from northwestern Mio (or Montana) definitely have a different reality, and it is politically driven when you get to the bottom of it.
Incredible listen. Thank you for sharing.
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https://in.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/half-of-republicans-say-biden-won-because-of-a-rigged-election-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN27Y1AJ
"Half of Republicans say Biden won because of a 'rigged' election: Reuters/Ipsos poll"
"Half of Republicans say Biden won because of a 'rigged' election: Reuters/Ipsos poll"
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Yeah I believe polls still steve
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Rocinante wrote:Yeah I believe polls still steve
"Fake News" - Rocinate 11.18.2020
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The autopsy on the election failure isn’t even done yet. They can’t possibly know what the problem is with the polls until after that. A big problem might be not enough weight added to republicans who seem to just not be talking to pollsters, or it could be something more systematic. So I don’t know how you can even think of trusting a poll right now.
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Re: Dueling Realities
The poll probably had a blue check.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Rocinante wrote:The autopsy on the election failure isn’t even done yet. They can’t possibly know what the problem is with the polls until after that. A big problem might be not enough weight added to republicans who seem to just not be talking to pollsters, or it could be something more systematic. So I don’t know how you can even think of trusting a poll right now.
This isn't an election poll it's a public opinion which I believe are pretty reliable.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Rocinante wrote:The autopsy on the election failure isn’t even done yet. They can’t possibly know what the problem is with the polls until after that. A big problem might be not enough weight added to republicans who seem to just not be talking to pollsters, or it could be something more systematic. So I don’t know how you can even think of trusting a poll right now.
My tinfoil hat theory on the inaccuracy of the past two Presidential elections has 4 components:
Social media where entities like Facebook direct news feeds based on what they know about you and algorithms fine tune what you are seeing baseed on your input and the input of your "friends". Tie that in with choose your news streaming alternatives that reinforce what people want to believe as opposed to facts. (ie The Bush2 administration did find yellow cake uranium in Iraq and President Obama was born in Kenya)
Trump effectively divided America. Like it or not there were at least 48-49% of voters who might not be in a militia, a group like Proud Boys, don't like affimative action and react to the "socialism" dog whistle. They won't admit it to many, sometimes not to co-workers, fellow church member or their own family members. But when its time to vote we see the numbers.
Mobile phones is another. Back in the day every pollster had the phone book White Pages (no pun intended) It was free. 5%-7% of people with at least one landline paid to keep their phone number out of the White Pages. White pages gave your address. Your area code and 3 number prefix was based on geography. With the address pollsters could go to census and local records for number of voters living there, tax valuation that could help determine income, taxes for schools was a measure of much higher ed was valued.
Now you get a cell number often before you are out of HS and with changes in FCC rules you can keep your number. ie: Get a cell phone in HS in the 616 area code, goes with you to MSU, your 1st job in Chicago, 2nd job in TX maybe a 3rd in OH or NC and you retire in the UP or along Lake MI in the 269 maybe 231 area code. Pollsters call can only guess where you live and have to hope you don't block their calls.
Last ties into the ability of social media to bring people together. There are QAnon and sites like it that instruct how to mislead pollsters. Pollsters are seen as part of The Deep State.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Rocinante wrote:The autopsy on the election failure isn’t even done yet. They can’t possibly know what the problem is with the polls until after that. A big problem might be not enough weight added to republicans who seem to just not be talking to pollsters, or it could be something more systematic. So I don’t know how you can even think of trusting a poll right now.
A lot of people jumped on the "look how wrong the polls are" thing on election night or the day after. Yet as the counting continues, the gap between reality and the polls has tightened some.
But one of my issues with how people and the media interpret polls as being wrong is that they focus too much on the margin, and then act like the polls are saying that is what the final margin should be. Problem is, that assumes that undecideds will vote at the same percentage as the decideds. Why should that be the case? RCP final polling average was 51.2 to 44.0. Currently the percentage is 51.0/47.2 and the gap is still growing. So were the polls wrong in terms of who people said they were voting for? It doesn't appear so. It is the undecideds that almost all fell for Trump. There was lots of talk about how few undecideds there were, and it was hard to imagine how anyone could have been undecided. Combine that with what you said about Republicans not talking to pollsters, and maybe the large majority of that 3% difference between polls and reality was those non-answering Trump voters.
Biden being near or above 50% in the polls is something that I often pointed out as the difference with Hillary (who was at 45-47%).
Some state polls were off more, I believe, but ultimately got the winner right in all but Florida and Georgia, I believe.
This isn't to say the polls were great (they're obviously missing some thingsl, just that the narrative of them being so horribly wrong misses some key points.
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Saw this today n the Trump Campaign’s app that had 2.8M downloads.
It not only kept you up to date with rally info and how to by Trump merchandise, it copied contact lists, put the downloader and their contacts on Trump’s donor lists for cash appeals and geographically tracked the phones.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/11/18/trumps-2020-campaign-app-phunware/6337581002/
It not only kept you up to date with rally info and how to by Trump merchandise, it copied contact lists, put the downloader and their contacts on Trump’s donor lists for cash appeals and geographically tracked the phones.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/11/18/trumps-2020-campaign-app-phunware/6337581002/
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Re: Dueling Realities
Turtleneck wrote:Nordic wrote: Turtleneck
Both sides have there heads so far up their ass they can't see their own shit.
For the record, I do think one side is far more invested in playing for keeps than the other.
Of course. And people on the other side feel the same.
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Nordic wrote: Turtleneck
Both sides have there heads so far up their ass they can't see their own shit.
Both sides have their own “shit” but one side wants to do nothing about Covid, global warming, racial inequality, and the wealth gap. You’d think most people would want to try to fight these things but according to the election it’s still close.
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Chronic both siderism is not only an asinine take to still be taking in the modern political world, it’s also actively making things much much worse.
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Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Chronic both siderism is not only an asinine take to still be taking in the modern political world, it’s also actively making things much much worse.
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Re: Dueling Realities
so, lets see what both sides are doing:Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Nordic wrote: Turtleneck
Both sides have there heads so far up their ass they can't see their own shit.
Both sides have their own “shit” but one side wants to do nothing about Covid, global warming, racial inequality, and the wealth gap. You’d think most people would want to try to fight these things but according to the election it’s still close.
Covid, trump's people just had a briefing after 4 weeks. Have done nothing to stop the spread. Biden currently has a briefing daily. The first thing he did was appoint the team... Whitmer has the balls to enact restrictions which are actively getting her impeached... Called a dictator and having death threats.
How da fuq is that "both sides"???
Global warming? Trump lies, pull out of paris accord, fight against this every chance... Dems polar opposite.
Racial inequality? Serious?
Wealth gap? Remember what happened when Obama wanted to let the tax breaks for billionaires lapse? The Rs shut down the federal government....
I hope to God you where being a smart ass with the both sides stuff... yeah, "progressive" shit might be in debate mode now, but "both sides" is still ridiculous.
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Re: Dueling Realities
AvgMSUJoe wrote:so, lets see what both sides are doing:Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
Both sides have their own “shit” but one side wants to do nothing about Covid, global warming, racial inequality, and the wealth gap. You’d think most people would want to try to fight these things but according to the election it’s still close.
Covid, trump's people just had a briefing after 4 weeks. Have done nothing to stop the spread. Biden currently has a briefing daily. The first thing he did was appoint the team... Whitmer has the balls to enact restrictions which are actively getting her impeached... Called a dictator and having death threats.
How da fuq is that "both sides"???
Global warming? Trump lies, pull out of paris accord, fight against this every chance... Dems polar opposite.
Racial inequality? Serious?
Wealth gap? Remember what happened when Obama wanted to let the tax breaks for billionaires lapse? The Rs shut down the federal government....
I hope to God you where being a smart ass with the both sides stuff... yeah, "progressive" shit might be in debate mode now, but "both sides" is still ridiculous.
My coffee might not have kicked in yet, but if I'm reading this right I think you need to direct this at Nordic... kinda.
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Quote stops quoting after so many layers.Watch Out Pylon! wrote:AvgMSUJoe wrote:so, lets see what both sides are doing:
Covid, trump's people just had a briefing after 4 weeks. Have done nothing to stop the spread. Biden currently has a briefing daily. The first thing he did was appoint the team... Whitmer has the balls to enact restrictions which are actively getting her impeached... Called a dictator and having death threats.
How da fuq is that "both sides"???
Global warming? Trump lies, pull out of paris accord, fight against this every chance... Dems polar opposite.
Racial inequality? Serious?
Wealth gap? Remember what happened when Obama wanted to let the tax breaks for billionaires lapse? The Rs shut down the federal government....
I hope to God you where being a smart ass with the both sides stuff... yeah, "progressive" shit might be in debate mode now, but "both sides" is still ridiculous.
My coffee might not have kicked in yet, but if I'm reading this right I think you need to direct this at Nordic... kinda.
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Re: Dueling Realities
Sounds like we agree joe
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Join date : 2014-04-18
Re: Dueling Realities
Both sides is some bullshit. Tell me how both sides are wrong.
There was proven interference from foreign powers in the 2016 election and no one tried to overturn the results.
Half the damn country accepts a corrupt racist liar as their deity because they care more about their own pocketbooks than moral decency. There's no both sides. There's right and there's wrong. I've never been political. I became engaged because it became right vs. wrong.
There was proven interference from foreign powers in the 2016 election and no one tried to overturn the results.
Half the damn country accepts a corrupt racist liar as their deity because they care more about their own pocketbooks than moral decency. There's no both sides. There's right and there's wrong. I've never been political. I became engaged because it became right vs. wrong.
WhiteBoyHatcher- Geronte
- Posts : 28950
Join date : 2014-04-20
Location : Welcome to the Revolution
Re: Dueling Realities
WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Both sides is some bullshit. Tell me how both sides are wrong.
There was proven interference from foreign powers in the 2016 election and no one tried to overturn the results.
Half the damn country accepts a corrupt racist liar as their deity because they care more about their own pocketbooks than moral decency. There's no both sides. There's right and there's wrong. I've never been political. I became engaged because it became right vs. wrong.
If you were to believe that this part was manufactured bullshit, then you could swing that all the republicans are doing now is the same thing the democrats did, manufacturing bullshit to undermine the president. I suppose that’s how you could come up with a both sides take and how you can justify it in your head if you’re a republican.
The problem is, the belief that the bolded part up above is bullshit is wrong. Which invalidates the whole thing, but if you’re going to believe that it’s both sides or that republicans are even a little justified, then you can’t think that
Travis of the Cosmos- Geronte
- Posts : 31208
Join date : 2014-04-15
Age : 39
Location : Please cease horny posting
Re: Dueling Realities
True Travis but Hilary also conceded graciously within a day. I know there were reports of BO convincing her this was the right thing to do, but again, therein lies the difference. Doing the right thing for the greater good vs.....not.
WhiteBoyHatcher- Geronte
- Posts : 28950
Join date : 2014-04-20
Location : Welcome to the Revolution
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