Student Loans

Dendrobates wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

This sucks Dendro. Any chance you can get a lower rate like a mortgage refinance?

We possibly can. The issue if you do that, is you forfeit the income based repayment plan permanently. Which gives you the security if you ever get laid off and can defer for a bit. And then you also can’t get the forgiveness after 25 years.
The monthly payment would still be larger than the 1500 as it was. And that is all our money as it is.

I'm pretty sure there's another way around using both incomes for the income based repayment plan other than filing singly. You might have to wait until your annual certification but it should be worth checking into.

DWags wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

DWags wrote:If I could give my education back and msu would give me back my money I’d do it. I’m retired now and don’t need it anymore.

How much was tuition back then grandpa? Like $100 a semester?

Everything is relative. However, when I started at MSU it was 28 dollars per credit hour. Back then, that was a lot. I paid for my college with occasional help from the parents. I think I had one loan. My wife's family just wrote checks for her. My wife and I are paying for both daughters. Lots from the savings shit, some from our investments and a bit from loans. We'll get them out of college debt free. We however, are broke. No big vacations, simple house, paid off cars etc. No boat in boat town all that kind of shit.

But Dwags in 1980 = 28 dollars a credit hour
Dwags kids in 2020 = 482 a credit hour or something like 7400 dollars for a flat rate now.

That is one fucked up scale.

But you choose to pay for it. Lots of people don't have that option. It's loans or no college. My parents pitched in, but I graduated with $20k in loans (1990 dollars) that took me 10 years to pay off. It was worth every penny & now that my parents are on fixed incomes, I contribute to their "golden years" whenever I get the chance.

You & I were lucky enough to get thru college before the "racket" exploded (and before kegs were banned in dorms ). Other developed countries are able to provide low/no cost higher education for their people (and affordable health care), yet the "richest country in the world" cannot. High school is free. Who decided that college shouldn't be? 12th grade seems to be a rather arbitrary cutoff that should evolve with the times.

If the govt is going to give away a trillion dollars, I'd rather it go to loan forgiveness than billionaires & corporations.

This whole mess started in the '80's when someone decided that everyone needed a college degree to be successful & the govt should provide the financing. That was an unintended (I think) green light for 1. Jacking up prices and b. Cutting fed & state funding. Both fed each other.

Also, I'm willing to pay more taxes for low/no cost college if it means there will be fewer brainless twats roaming the countryside spouting wingnut conspiracy theories.

People also have to realize you pretty much can't work throughout college and pay it off.
I've been working since it was legal (husband too). Neither of us spend much. We worked as much as possible during school, and worked at beaumont hospital every weekend and all summer long (hell of a lot better pay than in Lansing g). We didn't spend a dime. But that money was to pay for a car we shared, and our bills. Neither of us had help from parents. But we still needed our student loans just to help pay not just for school, but to live off of as well. We completed school still in 4 years, and reallt didn't live the college life. We lived the responsible life.
Boomers need to get past the idea that you needed to just work hard to pay for school, because they did it. It can't be done, and we had the "good paying " jobs in undergrad

Hell after I graduated grad school, I was still teaching college. I needed to get another job to pay bills, but we still shared a car. So I needed something walking distance to either work or our apartment. That left fast food and the hyvee grocery store. Both at that time, would not hire me. They said I was over qualified .
This isn't unique. This a common problem and theme. I don't know if all of them need to be forgiven. But definitely some of it needs to.

Heat Miser wrote:

DWags wrote:

Everything is relative. However, when I started at MSU it was 28 dollars per credit hour. Back then, that was a lot. I paid for my college with occasional help from the parents. I think I had one loan. My wife's family just wrote checks for her. My wife and I are paying for both daughters. Lots from the savings shit, some from our investments and a bit from loans. We'll get them out of college debt free. We however, are broke. No big vacations, simple house, paid off cars etc. No boat in boat town all that kind of shit.

But Dwags in 1980 = 28 dollars a credit hour
Dwags kids in 2020 = 482 a credit hour or something like 7400 dollars for a flat rate now.

That is one fucked up scale.

But you choose to pay for it. Lots of people don't have that option. It's loans or no college. My parents pitched in, but I graduated with $20k in loans (1990 dollars) that took me 10 years to pay off. It was worth every penny & now that my parents are on fixed incomes, I contribute to their "golden years" whenever I get the chance.

You & I were lucky enough to get thru college before the "racket" exploded (and before kegs were banned in dorms ). Other developed countries are able to provide low/no cost higher education for their people (and affordable health care), yet the "richest country in the world" cannot. High school is free. Who decided that college shouldn't be? 12th grade seems to be a rather arbitrary cutoff that should evolve with the times.

If the govt is going to give away a trillion dollars, I'd rather it go to loan forgiveness than billionaires & corporations.

This whole mess started in the '80's when someone decided that everyone needed a college degree to be successful & the govt should provide the financing. That was an unintended (I think) green light for 1. Jacking up prices and b. Cutting fed & state funding. Both fed each other.

Also, I'm willing to pay more taxes for low/no cost college if it means there will be fewer brainless twats roaming the countryside spouting wingnut conspiracy theories.

Yep, I acknowledge how lucky I was to have gone through college at the time I went through it. My neighbor's kid across the street jsut graduated. Finances were a huge factor in his school choice. I think he settled on Albany. The chance of going to a school like UCONN or Syracuse were completely off the table. Had to look at all the grants, loans, tuition costs, cost of living etc. His dad told me their goal was to get through with as manageable a debt load as possible. That's the new reality.

Heat Miser wrote:

DWags wrote:

Everything is relative. However, when I started at MSU it was 28 dollars per credit hour. Back then, that was a lot. I paid for my college with occasional help from the parents. I think I had one loan. My wife's family just wrote checks for her. My wife and I are paying for both daughters. Lots from the savings shit, some from our investments and a bit from loans. We'll get them out of college debt free. We however, are broke. No big vacations, simple house, paid off cars etc. No boat in boat town all that kind of shit.

But Dwags in 1980 = 28 dollars a credit hour
Dwags kids in 2020 = 482 a credit hour or something like 7400 dollars for a flat rate now.

That is one fucked up scale.

But you choose to pay for it. Lots of people don't have that option. It's loans or no college. My parents pitched in, but I graduated with $20k in loans (1990 dollars) that took me 10 years to pay off. It was worth every penny & now that my parents are on fixed incomes, I contribute to their "golden years" whenever I get the chance.

You & I were lucky enough to get thru college before the "racket" exploded (and before kegs were banned in dorms ). Other developed countries are able to provide low/no cost higher education for their people (and affordable health care), yet the "richest country in the world" cannot. High school is free. Who decided that college shouldn't be? 12th grade seems to be a rather arbitrary cutoff that should evolve with the times.

If the govt is going to give away a trillion dollars, I'd rather it go to loan forgiveness than billionaires & corporations.

This whole mess started in the '80's when someone decided that everyone needed a college degree to be successful & the govt should provide the financing. That was an unintended (I think) green light for 1. Jacking up prices and b. Cutting fed & state funding. Both fed each other.

Also, I'm willing to pay more taxes for low/no cost college if it means there will be fewer brainless twats roaming the countryside spouting wingnut conspiracy theories.

Agree with this. And I'm also willing to have a tax placed on my earnings to offset any college buyouts. I teally do think that will free up so much money and the kids with the debt will pay it back by buying goods in our community.

Jake from State Farm wrote:

Dendrobates wrote:

We possibly can. The issue if you do that, is you forfeit the income based repayment plan permanently. Which gives you the security if you ever get laid off and can defer for a bit. And then you also can’t get the forgiveness after 25 years.
The monthly payment would still be larger than the 1500 as it was. And that is all our money as it is.

I'm pretty sure there's another way around using both incomes for the income based repayment plan other than filing singly. You might have to wait until your annual certification but it should be worth checking into.

I think the ones you’re thinking about are for those who have had loans more recently than us. Our loans are older (I say our, but I paid my loans off) and so not all the income based repayment options qualify.

Dendrobates wrote:

Jake from State Farm wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's another way around using both incomes for the income based repayment plan other than filing singly. You might have to wait until your annual certification but it should be worth checking into.

I think the ones you’re thinking about are for those who have had loans more recently than us. Our loans are older (I say our, but I paid my loans off) and so not all the income based repayment options qualify.

okay, if hubby is working for government or nonprofit he can get loan forgiveness after ten years.

Jake from State Farm wrote:

Dendrobates wrote:

I think the ones you’re thinking about are for those who have had loans more recently than us. Our loans are older (I say our, but I paid my loans off) and so not all the income based repayment options qualify.

okay, if hubby is working for government or nonprofit he can get loan forgiveness after ten years.

But not for chiropractors.

Dendrobates wrote:

Jake from State Farm wrote:

okay, if hubby is working for government or nonprofit he can get loan forgiveness after ten years.

But not for chiropractors.

Well I'm striking out all over the place today.

Jake from State Farm wrote:

Dendrobates wrote:

But not for chiropractors.

Well I'm striking out all over the place today.

I appreciate the suggestions. We've really researched the options throughout the years. And if we missed something, I know his other colleagues would have heard about it too.

Hindsight is 20/20. There are definitely things we would do differently now.

Dendrobates wrote:The problem is if forgiveness happens, it obviously doesn’t fix the problem. We all know it’s not just 1 thing causing the massive debt. How to address all those issues? I don’t know, but I know it will not be a one time fix.

Serious reforms are needed. I am not sure "free college" is the answer without it being backstopped by aggressive K-12 reform.

As it stands, free college will benefit the upper and middle class students best prepared for college. I see this resulting in colleges becoming more selective to weed out underprepared students, and thus lowering enrollments and forcing closures or consolidation, or colleges heavily investing in student support services and driving up the cost to taxpayers. Although I fully support free college, it is not as simple as eliminating tuition. It would require major reforms to both higher and K-12 education.

I think the starting point that we can agree on is free community college education. This gives underprepared students access to preparatory classes, and all students the ability to earn transfer credits and significantly reduce money spent on a four year degree. For those who do not want a four year degree, they will have access to career and technical education that will make them more competitive in the workplace.

Well, since we are all a product of a land grant university... Maybe that model is what needs to be revisited. (Us news and world report be damned) certain schools with full federal funding with a directive to keep costs down. Make certain universities have goals of cranking out undergrads without undue costs. Research, facility arms race, publish, etc etc etc not be a part of the equation. Shit... Allow Community colleges to do bachelor degrees.
Make the shit practical again. Fuck the "prestige" of your alma mater.

DWags wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

How much was tuition back then grandpa? Like $100 a semester?

Everything is relative. However, when I started at MSU it was 28 dollars per credit hour. Back then, that was a lot. I paid for my college with occasional help from the parents. I think I had one loan. My wife's family just wrote checks for her. My wife and I are paying for both daughters. Lots from the savings shit, some from our investments and a bit from loans. We'll get them out of college debt free. We however, are broke. No big vacations, simple house, paid off cars etc. No boat in boat town all that kind of shit.

But Dwags in 1980 = 28 dollars a credit hour
Dwags kids in 2020 = 482 a credit hour or something like 7400 dollars for a flat rate now.

That is one fucked up scale.

When I was still in the USN planning and making a list of colleges I remember the uproar in the late 70's when MSU's level 2 tuition for 300/400 level courses cracked the $10/credit hour ceiling. As Dwags mentioned by 1980 it was up 280% by shifting to student costs. My 6 year younger sibling who graduated from MSU in '83 was paying $45/hr and my other sibling who graduated in '91 was paying more than $100/credit in her final 2 semesters.

Once the financial markets got involved it's become more profitable than the mortgage business for those who make the loans and very few noticed for a long time.

PS
Its not the cost of professors. I have a son-in-law who is a tenure track professor who started off at a well funded (big endowment) small college after 4 years under grad, 4 years in a combined masters / PhD program Boston College offered and 1 year post grad study in Europe starting salary was $75K. Had that job been at a Big Ten school it would have been closer to $60K.

Most professors value to universities are the donors to their respective departments they attract and the positive PR they generate for their schools. The big money comes form consulting unless you are at a research school where you're paid a healthy salary but the university owns all the patents for things they work on. (See MIT)

It's definitely not the professors, especially those entering their careers right now.

The pause on payments is getting pushed back again, to august 31 this time.

I think you’re at a point now where it’s getting kind of silly to continue even pretending that we’re going to restart payments eventually. What, are you going to restart them 2 months before the midterms? Yeah, sure, even famously politically stupid democrats aren’t that stupid. It will get delayed again. Then what? You’ll be at 3 years since anyone has made a payment, after having lost an election most likely, what are you going to be the guy that tells millions of people to fuck off and figure it out when the juice starts running again? Nah, that won’t happen. So it’ll get pushed back again and again. Every time we’ll bump this thread and have the same conversations where I explain that student loan forgiveness has no impact on anyone that doesn’t have a loan whatsoever and they’ll scream into the wind about it.

Alternatively, we could just go ahead and forgive them, let the outrage cycle churn for 2 weeks, then let it all be forgotten about forever, except by those whom it really helped. That seems to make a lot more sense than endlessly delaying them for a few months for years on end

BUT I HAD TO PAY MINE BACK!

One of my children, due to the zero interest, has been able to save up about half of their loan amount by putting what would have been loan payments in the bank since the loan interest suspensions started.

The student loan program should have always been at zero interest.

It's not unprecedented. Many home oans were forgiven due to predatory lending.

I really wish I wouldn't have privately refinanced most of mine in a 20 year with an actual end date in sight

Let's go Joe! Git er done!

I'd agree to start with Penn's proposal for zero interest loans.

I would add to that loan forgivness for everyonr who didn't graduate, why charge people for something they didn't get?

Trapper Gus wrote:I'd agree to start with Penn's proposal for zero interest loans.

I would add to that loan forgivness for everyonr who didn't graduate, why charge people for something they didn't get?

I am in favor of some loan relief particularly zero interest (which we should have anyway) and from predatory institutions.

But I disagree about not graduating (with the exception of predatory institutions as noted). Students do not pay for degrees. Students pay for course/curriculum delivery and opportunity. The degrees are earned. Many many many students do not graduate through no fault whatsoever of the college/university or their lender (if they have one).

Rick Saunders wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:I'd agree to start with Penn's proposal for zero interest loans.

I would add to that loan forgivness for everyonr who didn't graduate, why charge people for something they didn't get?

I am in favor of some loan relief particularly zero interest (which we should have anyway) and from predatory institutions.

But I disagree about not graduating (with the exception of predatory institutions as noted). Students do not pay for degrees. Students pay for course/curriculum delivery and opportunity. The degrees are earned. Many many many students do not graduate through no fault whatsoever of the college/university or their lender (if they have one).

Ideally, however without the sheepskin the earning potential is greatly reduced.

The college should be held just as accountable as the student and have to pay the loan back for students who don't graduate.

Rick Saunders wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:I'd agree to start with Penn's proposal for zero interest loans.

I would add to that loan forgivness for everyonr who didn't graduate, why charge people for something they didn't get?

I am in favor of some loan relief particularly zero interest (which we should have anyway) and from predatory institutions.  

But I disagree about not graduating (with the exception of predatory institutions as noted).  Students do not pay for degrees.  Students pay for course/curriculum delivery and opportunity.  The degrees are earned.  Many many many students do not graduate through no fault whatsoever of the college/university or their lender (if they have one).

There's a very credible source that says they spent to much time in Cancun.

Are we expecting all students to be monks and nuns?

Seems unrealistic.

Trapper Gus wrote:

without the sheepskin the earning potential is greatly reduced.  

The college should be held just as accountable as the student and have to pay the loan back for students who don't graduate.

You know there are lots of students who don't even show up for class, right?  Adults we're talking about.

I wasn't that guy. You weren't that guy.  Bob's daughter isn't that guy.  That's one of the reasons we graduated.  We paid MSU for the opportunity and we used it.  Plenty of students literally do not use the opportunity they are paying for.  Colleges and Universities should not be predatory but the degrees they grant are not simply sold.

Trapper Gus wrote:Are we expecting all students to be monks and nuns?

Seems unrealistic.

I expect students to meet the requirements of the course of study.  I'm sure plenty are not monks or nuns but how did they do on the exam or the paper?  That's what matters.  

Now I will say there is a very strong correlation between not going to class and not doing well in the class.

the mainstream media being the mainstream media.. some dude from MSNBC:

David Jolly @DavidJollyFL

The likelihood of this dramatically backfiring on Biden is unfortunately very, very high

Caution: Mainstream Media Link

Joe bought my vote to forgive all loans not just 10k :(

Rick Saunders wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

without the sheepskin the earning potential is greatly reduced.  

The college should be held just as accountable as the student and have to pay the loan back for students who don't graduate.

You know there are lots of students who don't even show up for class, right?  Adults we're talking about.

I wasn't that guy. You weren't that guy.  Bob's daughter isn't that guy.  That's one of the reasons we graduated.  We paid MSU for the opportunity and we used it.  Plenty of students literally do not use the opportunity they are paying for.  Colleges and Universities should not be predatory but the degrees they grant are not simply sold.

Trapper Gus wrote:Are we expecting all students to be monks and nuns?

Seems unrealistic.

I expect students to meet the requirements of the course of study.  I'm sure plenty are not monks or nuns but how did they do on the exam or the paper?  That's what matters.  

Now I will say there is a very strong correlation between not going to class and not doing well in the class.

Going on a spring break trip doesn't seem to fit your comment.

I am very happy for those that this forgiven amount is life changing. This was overdue.

I paid mine off around 8 years ago. I'm happy for some kind of forgiveness. But it doesn't even touch the interest that is owned on my husband's. At the very least, I would like our 4 figure payment to go towards principal. We will do what we can and hope for the best.

Dendrobates wrote:I am very happy for those that this forgiven amount is life changing. This was overdue.

I paid mine off around 8 years ago. I'm happy for some kind of forgiveness.  But it doesn't even touch the interest that is owned on my husband's. At the very least, I would like our 4 figure payment to go towards principal. We will do what we can and hope for the best.

Agreed, while this is what Biden promised I also would be more impressed if something major was done about interest on interest.

Okay, this may help Dendroberts hubby with paying off borrowed interest as well...

The new moves also, Biden said, help fix the student loan program going forward, with changes to income-based repayment plans. Payments for those will be capped at 5% of income rather than 10% while raising the amount of income considered non-discretionary, “guaranteeing that no borrower earning under 225% of the federal poverty level—about the annual equivalent of a $15 minimum wage for a single borrower—will have to make a monthly payment,” according to a federal student loan fact sheet. In a key move, the changes to the income-based repayment will also “cover the borrower’s unpaid monthly interest, so that unlike other existing income-driven repayment plans, no borrower's loan balance will grow as long as they make their monthly payments—even when that monthly payment is $0 because their income is low.”

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Joe bought my vote to forgive all loans not just 10k :(

To be fair he didn't promise that. He promised 10k

[tw]1562473525335961600[/tw]

“Bribing voters” is my favorite spicy hot take especially coming from a politician. “You’re doing things that are broadly popular things that your constituents want you to do?? No no we can’t have that, that’s bribing them! You must continue to merely say you’ll do things then never do them”

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:[tw]1562473525335961600[/tw]

“Bribing voters” is my favorite spicy hot take especially coming from a politician. “You’re doing things that are broadly popular things that your constituents want you to do?? No no we can’t have that, that’s bribing them! You must continue to merely say you’ll do things then never do them”

I'm all in on this bribing voters thing.  Bribe me some more with affordable day care, payments for families with children and Medicare For All.

Funny thing is none of those would directly  bribe me.

I bet a lot of white men who love playing the victim are whining.

God right wing media drives me crazy.

How is it bribing votes when every other developed country has these things.

The only thing they have a point on is timing. Yes, I'm sure that was deliberate. They can bitch all they way about that, but if the roles were reversed, they would do the same.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Joe bought my vote to forgive all loans not just 10k :(

I'm with ya, still got plenty left after this. But it's $10k more than any other politician has done for me.

Build the wall wasn't a bribe though. Neither was "I need you to do me a favor first" or tax cuts. Or deporting 11 million illegals, lock her up, or waiting to see how much of a stimulus Dems proposed so he could give a higher number.

Always chuckle to see folks like Mitt Romney and other US Senators who married or were born into multi-million dollar fortunes never having to take education loans, never worrying about post graduate employment because of trust funds and never looking at the calendar knowing they might have more month left than money whine.

Every Republican who was in the US Senate and voted for the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 on Dec 20 2017 didn’t bat an eye at adding billions to the Federal deficit so the wealthiest 5% could reap another tax cut windfall.

None of them have objected to massive loads of cash going to oil and gas companies annually or the cash to everything from SpaceLink to companies to produce semiconductor chips in the US.

But Lordy, Lordy we can’t have folks in the bottom 40% get up to $20K back. Never mind that extra cash will most likely get put right back into the economy for home repairs, down payments on homes, car repairs etc,

I’m waiting for farmers who got bailouts larger than the auto bailouts to start whining. They think they are the only one who deserve government money.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Warren and Schumer have been tweeting about this lately as a way to pump money into the economy... Not sure it's the best way to do it. Too many choices go into having outrageous student loan debt. (Some really bad choices). Really, I'd rather them give money directly to poors.

I wouldn't be happy paying for some east coast instagram model's art history degree (complete with 2 years in paris).

On top of this, it does nothing to solve the problem with higher education cost, in fact, it will make it worse.
The whole system is run on funny money and no one is responsible for the controlling costs, except the poor schmuck who pays responsibly.