tOfficial Sane Republicans Thread

[steveschneider]

Just want to congratulate David Frum.

He's overtaken Steve Schmidt and resumed his top spot on my top 20 Sane Conservatives Rankings.

[Cameron]

Fucking steve...

[steveschneider]

Fucking steve...

It's all about building winning coalitions that's how you get stuff done.

[Rocinante]

Calling all conservatives except 20 insane is a great way to make friends and influence people, steve. Keep up the good work.

[MiamiSpartan]

Calling all conservatives except 20 insane is a great way to make friends and influence people, steve. Keep up the good work.

Of course, the insane ones are not conservatives, and should not be referred to as such. There's nothing conservative about supporting an insurrection on behalf of someone seeking authoritarian rule.

[steveschneider]

]

Also, David Frum has been on point and was one of the first.

[kingstonlake]

Solid troll, Steve.

[steveschneider]

Solid troll, Steve.

The real question does David Brooks crack the top 10?

[MiamiSpartan]

Are we supposed to know who these people are, steve, or is this another case of you dropping names of random podcasters or pundits to make yourself feel knowledgeable?

[steveschneider]

Are we supposed to know who these people are, steve, or is this another case of you dropping names of random podcasters or pundits to make yourself feel knowledgeable?

Maybe I’ll do a daily feature next week “The Sane Conservative of the Day”.

[Cameron]

Fucking steve...

[AvgMSUJoe]

This feels like a attempt at normalization... Bothsideism type shit.
That shouldn't happen until a debate over the size of govt is front and center and not qanon conspiracy nutjobs in control.

[steveschneider]

This feels like a attempt at normalization... Bothsideism type shit.
That shouldn't happen until a debate over the size of govt is front and center and not qanon conspiracy nutjobs in control.

There's plenty of that going on these days and you are right to be suspicious.

Lets define sane conservative:

- Stands against Trumpism/Qanon/Oath Keeprs/Proud Boys and all the other Racist Neo Nazi Hate Groups and are able to accurately identify the threat they pose

- Supports The Constitution

- Lives in Reality

- Voted Democrat to Defeat Trumpism (some openly spoke out saying they'd vote Hillary in 2016 *See David Frum)

- Left the party or feels they no longer belong in todays GOP

[Travis of the Cosmos]

This feels like a attempt at normalization... Bothsideism type shit.
That shouldn't happen until a debate over the size of govt is front and center and not qanon conspiracy nutjobs in control.

There's plenty of that going on these days and you are right to be suspicious.

Lets define sane conservative:

- Stands against Trumpism/Qanon/Oath Keeprs/Proud Boys and all the other Racist Neo Nazi Hate Groups and are able to accurately identify the threat they pose

- Supports The Constitution

- Lives in Reality

- Voted Democrat to Defeat Trumpism (some openly spoke out saying they'd vote Hillary in 2016 *See David Frum)

- Left the party or feels they no longer belong in todays GOP

Sorry, just a little data analyst joke for you steve.

Anyway, those two bolder bits fundamentally don’t exist, in this country at least, including trump folk but also 30 years leading up to trump folk. You just tried to divide by 0 by including those two qualifiers

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Donald trump doesn’t live in reality. But neither does mitt Romney or steve Schmidt (or any of the grifters from the Lincoln project for that matter). Anyone that self identifies as conservative is missing some very fundamental pieces of reality that show them how the world really works. Or they don’t care and just lie to you to enrich themselves. Which....

[Turtleneck]

Solid troll, Steve.

The real question does David Brooks crack the top 10?

No. He is horrible. It seems like everything he writes is painfully obvious or painfully insulting.

Also, conservatism as a philosophy is both incredibly varied and misunderstood. Some of the people (who claim to be conservative) we think of as not being conservative certainly express varying levels of conservatism.

[MiamiSpartan]

Donald trump doesn’t live in reality. But neither does mitt Romney or steve Schmidt (or any of the grifters from the Lincoln project for that matter). Anyone that self identifies as conservative is missing some very fundamental pieces of reality that show them how the world really works. Or they don’t care and just lie to you to enrich themselves. Which....

That's a lot of words to say nothing at all. You don't define what you mean by conservative, which makes the whole thing pointless. As turtleneck said, it is a widely varied term, and it means different things to different people.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Donald trump doesn’t live in reality. But neither does mitt Romney or steve Schmidt (or any of the grifters from the Lincoln project for that matter). Anyone that self identifies as conservative is missing some very fundamental pieces of reality that show them how the world really works. Or they don’t care and just lie to you to enrich themselves. Which....

That's a lot of words to say nothing at all. You don't define what you mean by conservative, which makes the whole thing pointless. As turtleneck said, it is a widely varied term, and it means different things to different people.

Oh come on now its not that many words, it’s at best half of your average post length.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

But, I did actually define it, in those lengthy fancy words. I said if they self identify as one. If they, themselves, think that their vision of a conservative world view, whatever that means to them, is for the best, then they are not living in reality in my experience.

It doesn’t matter if I think they are a conservative or how I define it. It matters if they define themselves as such, in the context of my post.

[Turtleneck]

Travis, a true conservative, lets's say from the Burkean tradition or influenced by some other 18th or 19th century jerk, would tell you the world is the way it is because of a lack of conservative principles. They would tell us the chaotic and complex nature of today's world comes from our resistance to tradition and hierarchy, and the order they bring to society. You need to get right with society, Travis. I suggest finding religion or having your lady friend make you a sandwich.

This is where we find many of today's conservatives to be very conservative, even Trump and his followers. They might claim to be friends of democracy and individualism, but they have a strong belief in the authoritative values of tradition and hierarchy. There are periods from our past they would prefer to restore rather than building a new future. This appeal to tradition and hierarchy binds them all together.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Travis, a true conservative, lets's say from the Burkean tradition or influenced by some other 18th or 19th century jerk, would tell you the world is the way it is because of a lack of conservative principles. They would tell us the chaotic and complex nature of today's world comes from our resistance to tradition and hierarchy, and the order they bring to society. You need to get right with society, Travis. I suggest finding religion or having your lady friend make you a sandwich.

This is where we find many of today's conservatives to be very conservative, even Trump and his followers. They might claim to be friends of democracy and individualism, but they have a strong belief in the authoritative values of tradition and hierarchy. There are periods from our past they would prefer to restore rather than building a new future. This appeal to tradition and hierarchy binds them all together.

And I would tell them that they do not live in reality.

[Turtleneck]

Travis, a true conservative, lets's say from the Burkean tradition or influenced by some other 18th or 19th century jerk, would tell you the world is the way it is because of a lack of conservative principles. They would tell us the chaotic and complex nature of today's world comes from our resistance to tradition and hierarchy, and the order they bring to society. You need to get right with society, Travis. I suggest finding religion or having your lady friend make you a sandwich.

This is where we find many of today's conservatives to be very conservative, even Trump and his followers. They might claim to be friends of democracy and individualism, but they have a strong belief in the authoritative values of tradition and hierarchy. There are periods from our past they would prefer to restore rather than building a new future. This appeal to tradition and hierarchy binds them all together.

And I would tell them that they do not live in reality.

They do not want to live in your liberal reality, and by liberal I mean the emphasis placed on the individual over a well ordered society grounded in tradition; where pursuit of individually defined needs and wants trumps nearly everything else.

Since your reality is limited to only what you have experienced, you cannot define reality for others anymore than they can define it for you. Which in some ways fits into the conservative belief that there is a natural inequality between peoples - we have differing levels of intelligence, talent, motivation, etc. - and only a few have the intellectual capacity to govern and make decisions about human affairs.

[steveschneider]

The real question does David Brooks crack the top 10?

No. He is horrible. It seems like everything he writes is painfully obvious or painfully insulting.

Also, conservatism as a philosophy is both incredibly varied and misunderstood. Some of the people (who claim to be conservative) we think of as not being conservative certainly express varying levels of conservatism.

One thing David Brooks has going for himself he is affable.

[MiamiSpartan]

But, I did actually define it, in those lengthy fancy words. I said if they self identify as one. If they, themselves, think that their vision of a conservative world view, whatever that means to them, is for the best, then they are not living in reality in my experience.

It doesn’t matter if I think they are a conservative or how I define it. It matters if they define themselves as such, in the context of my post.

That is absolute nonsense. You're saying that you don't need to know what someone's beliefs are on a subject, in order to say that it isn't reality...because of a label that they use, not knowing what that label represents.

[MiamiSpartan]

That's a lot of words to say nothing at all. You don't define what you mean by conservative, which makes the whole thing pointless. As turtleneck said, it is a widely varied term, and it means different things to different people.

Oh come on now its not that many words, it’s at best half of your average post length.

This is true, of course, but the point wasn't that it was a lot of words. Just that it was a lot of words to say nothing.

[Cameron]

In general, I'd say you can self identify as conservative and still have somewhat reasonable (albeit objectively incorrect) ideas. If you identify as Republican, though, you are a piece of shit. That party stands for nothing good. What that means vis a vis living in reality, I really can't say.

[AvgMSUJoe]

In general, I'd say you can self identify as conservative and still have somewhat reasonable (albeit objectively incorrect) ideas. If you identify as Republican, though, you are a piece of shit. That party stands for nothing good. What that means vis a vis living in reality, I really can't say.

I'd go even one further and say you can be conservative on many issues and NOT be objectively incorrect. (And at least be able to debate issues in good faith)
But I agree, all Rs are worthless assholes.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

And I would tell them that they do not live in reality.

They do not want to live in your liberal reality, and by liberal I mean the emphasis placed on the individual over a well ordered society grounded in tradition; where pursuit of individually defined needs and wants trumps nearly everything else.

Since your reality is limited to only what you have experienced, you cannot define reality for others anymore than they can define it for you. Which in some ways fits into the conservative belief that there is a natural inequality between peoples - we have differing levels of intelligence, talent, motivation, etc. - and only a few have the intellectual capacity to govern and make decisions about human affairs.

Good thing they’re dead then.

Since were hung up on how I defined things in my three sentence post, I also made it pretty clear that I was talking about the last 30 years.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

But, I did actually define it, in those lengthy fancy words. I said if they self identify as one. If they, themselves, think that their vision of a conservative world view, whatever that means to them, is for the best, then they are not living in reality in my experience.

It doesn’t matter if I think they are a conservative or how I define it. It matters if they define themselves as such, in the context of my post.

That is absolute nonsense.  You're saying that you don't need to know what someone's beliefs are on a subject, in order to say that it isn't reality...because of a label that they use, not knowing what that label represents.

Along with the label that they choose to use, I also know many of the beliefs that they subscribe to, and it’s because of these that I know that their brains are largely scrambled nonsense. I know I didn’t explicitly define that for you, in the interest of time, but I thought a reasonable reader could draw out that I probably know a thing or two about them beyond calling themselves conservative

[Travis of the Cosmos]

In general, I'd say you can self identify as conservative and still have somewhat reasonable (albeit objectively incorrect) ideas. If you identify as Republican, though, you are a piece of shit. That party stands for nothing good. What that means vis a vis living in reality, I really can't say.

Nah. For example- there is nothing reasonable, after 30 years of trying it out in the real world, about thinking that giving tax cuts to the rich will lead to a more prosperous society for everyone. Nothing based in reality to show that’s true. At all. So like I said, either they’re lying grifters who want more for them, or they don’t live in reality. Either way, they’re not reasonable, but wrong, principled people. They’re demented lunatics who are too stupid to see that they have no concept for how the economy works. Or lying grifters. Fine, most of them are lying grifters. I’ll grant you that they just don’t care about lying to enrich themselves if you want.

[MiamiSpartan]

That is absolute nonsense.  You're saying that you don't need to know what someone's beliefs are on a subject, in order to say that it isn't reality...because of a label that they use, not knowing what that label represents.

Along with the label that they choose to use, I also know many of the beliefs that they subscribe to, and it’s because of these that I know that their brains are largely scrambled nonsense. I know I didn’t explicitly define that for you, in the interest of time, but I thought a reasonable reader could draw out that I probably know a thing or two about them beyond calling themselves conservative

And that was my issue. That you're essentially applying Republican political positions to anyone that identifies as a conservative. It's like applying the political/social beliefs of Evangelicals to anyone that says they believe in God.

[Turtleneck]

They do not want to live in your liberal reality, and by liberal I mean the emphasis placed on the individual over a well ordered society grounded in tradition; where pursuit of individually defined needs and wants trumps nearly everything else.

Since your reality is limited to only what you have experienced, you cannot define reality for others anymore than they can define it for you. Which in some ways fits into the conservative belief that there is a natural inequality between peoples - we have differing levels of intelligence, talent, motivation, etc. - and only a few have the intellectual capacity to govern and make decisions about human affairs.

Good thing they’re dead then.

Since were hung up on how I defined things in my three sentence post, I also made it pretty clear that I was talking about the last 30 years.

Conservatism today is influenced by foundational conservative thought, just like your liberalism is influenced by liberal philosophers from centuries ago even if you have never studied those philosophers.

[Cameron]

In general, I'd say you can self identify as conservative and still have somewhat reasonable (albeit objectively incorrect) ideas. If you identify as Republican, though, you are a piece of shit. That party stands for nothing good. What that means vis a vis living in reality, I really can't say.

Nah. For example- there is nothing reasonable, after 30 years of trying it out in the real world, about thinking that giving tax cuts to the rich will lead to a more prosperous society for everyone. Nothing based in reality to show that’s true. At all. So like I said, either they’re lying grifters who want more for them, or they don’t live in reality. Either way, they’re not reasonable, but wrong, principled people. They’re demented lunatics who are too stupid to see that they have no concept for how the economy works. Or lying grifters. Fine, most of them are lying grifters. I’ll grant you that they just don’t care about lying to enrich themselves if you want.

I'm struggling to dispute anything you've said there. I wasn't necessarily thinking only in economic terms, but if you examine cultural conservatism, I can't imagine it would really change the proposition.

But then, I've always struggled to understand why anyone would think different things than me. People are dumb, I guess.

[Turtleneck]

In general, I'd say you can self identify as conservative and still have somewhat reasonable (albeit objectively incorrect) ideas. If you identify as Republican, though, you are a piece of shit. That party stands for nothing good. What that means vis a vis living in reality, I really can't say.

Nah. For example- there is nothing reasonable, after 30 years of trying it out in the real world, about thinking that giving tax cuts to the rich will lead to a more prosperous society for everyone. Nothing based in reality to show that’s true. At all. So like I said, either they’re lying grifters who want more for them, or they don’t live in reality. Either way, they’re not reasonable, but wrong, principled people. They’re demented lunatics who are too stupid to see that they have no concept for how the economy works. Or lying grifters. Fine, most of them are lying grifters. I’ll grant you that they just don’t care about lying to enrich themselves if you want.

I would caution against suggesting conservatism is about a more prosperous society without first acknowledging it fundamentally believes in natural inequalities between people and protecting a system that privileges the upper class, thus the tax breaks for the wealthy. It has strayed greatly from this in an orthodox sense, but it's still important to acknowledge. Again, it goes back to the conservative reality, and the kind of society conservatives want to craft.

[GRR Spartan]

Politically speaking, what we knew as the GOP as late as 2012 was a party split with its national candidates hedging away from Newt Gingrich's slash and burn GOP party line used by Congressional candidates in gerrymandered districts.

Those lines are gone.  The GOP doesn't apologized for its words or actions.  In Montana they rewarded a Congressman who plead guilty to assaulting a retporter by electing him to governor.  

Sen Johnson (R) WI flat ot says he wasn't worried about his safety on Jan 6 attack on the Capitol because it wasn't led by Black Lives Matter.  

The GOP has two freshman Congrees members from CO and GA who have documented history of lying before and after being elected on multiple subjects, both deny legitimacy of the Nov  Presidential election who are supported by a vast majority of their GOP colleagues.  

The GOP has a sitting member of Congress who won by 22 votes and this week Federal authorities arrested a former FL state senator and his phony candidate  for putting in a candidate with the same last name as the Democrat on the ballot to confuse voters.  FL GOP Gov. DeSantis and the GOP majority FL legislature will not move to have another election before 2022.

Old style Republicans and "traditional conservatives" like Frum, Mitt Romney and now former POTUS George W Bush are RINO's.  So long as the current GOP is run by those who have allegiance to Trump, McConnell and their mega donors, people like Romney and GOP governors like Baker (MA),  Hogan (MD) and Scott (VT) are going to become independents or switch parties because the GOP mega donors won't raise a finger to help them financially.

[Floyd Robertson]

I'm not endorsing this, because I haven't watched it yet. but posting it because it looks interesting. I hoping to watch it at some point, but it's a daunting task. There are at least 12 episodes and they all look to be an hour plus.

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