Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates

I'm up in Holland for the weekend for a wedding.  Staying at what used to be the City Flats.  An ecofriendly hotel.   They have two EV chargers.  Both were occupied when we checked in and both still occupied this morning.

My brother wanted to trade his Bolt for my SUV for the weekend but I declined (range anxiety).  I made the right choice.

When it comes to range and eco friendly my Prius is the leader in the clubhouse.

I think bmw nailed it with the i3 with a 125 range. These cars should be commuter cars for those daily commutes where you drive to work, and drive home. I’m forecasting the ev trucks bomb and will be for people that have a lot of money for a gadget/toy.

Range Anxiety - a combination of limited Class 3 charging capability vehicles, limited Class 3 Charging Stations & limited single charge range.

Generation 1 EV's had range per charge of less than 100 miles, some under 30 miles.

Generation 2 EV's had range per charge of less than 200 miles, many less than 150 miles.

Generation 3 EV's have range per charge of between 200 miles to 400 miles.

Generation 4 EV's have range per charge of between 300 miles to 700 miles.

Generation 5 EV's have range per charge of between 300 miles to 1200 miles.

New EV's on the market are a combination of Gen 3 & Gen 4. EV's currently on the roads are Gen 1 through 4.

The lower end of the range, 300 miles, is similar to the lower end of ICE power vehicle's range on one tank of fuel.

Class 1 charging - uses circuits found in every house with electricity, it will add about 3 miles of range to a battery every hour.  Overnight charging of 10 hours works for less than 15-mile commute.

Class 2 charging - uses full voltage of house wiring, doubles rate of charge verses Class 1.

Class 3 charging - uses electrical service not in typical home and pumps charge into vehicle as quickly as vehicle system will allow.  There are different types of Class 3 charging stations which means not every Class 3 charger can match vehicle charge rate capacity right now.  Development with Class 3 chargers & vehicle electrical systems is pushing charging time from 10% charge to 80% charge to 10 minutes, which is either in vehicles that can be bought, or will be in the next two years.

Note - with home charging how people fuel their vehicles changes.  This distinct "use case" is hard for many people to get their heads around, but over time it will be as natural as charging your phone, or laptop.

steveschneider wrote:When it comes to range and eco friendly my Prius is the leader in the clubhouse.

I think bmw nailed it with the i3 with a 125 range. These cars should be commuter cars for those daily commutes where you drive to work, and drive home. I’m forecasting the ev trucks bomb and will be for people that have a lot of money for a gadget/toy.

I don't see EVs being the the only vehicle for very many households. I will strongly consider one within the next few years once my city driver finally dies out. But probably most multivehicle households still need two vehicles with range. And if you are a single car household having an EV is going to seriously impact your driving flexiblilty.

Hence the politics of EVs. If the marketplace alone determined the issue EVs would probably settle in at around 20% of the market share. We'll see how the public reacts when EV mandates really start to effect their transportation needs.

Zurn wrote:

steveschneider wrote:When it comes to range and eco friendly my Prius is the leader in the clubhouse.

I think bmw nailed it with the i3 with a 125 range. These cars should be commuter cars for those daily commutes where you drive to work, and drive home. I’m forecasting the ev trucks bomb and will be for people that have a lot of money for a gadget/toy.

I don't see EVs being the the only vehicle for very many households. I will strongly consider one within the next few years once my city driver finally dies out. But probably most multivehicle households still need two vehicles with range. And if you are a single car household having an EV is going to seriously impact your driving flexiblilty.

Hence the politics of EVs. If the marketplace alone determined the issue EVs would probably settle in at around 20% of the market share. We'll see how the public reacts when EV mandates really start to effect their transportation needs.

Range has already become a marketing choice for the automakers, not a technology limitation. If you want 1000 miles of range per charge it will be available.

The build out of charging stations for on the road trip charging, and the charging time, is the more immediate issue, however, there has been progress on both increasing the number of charging stations and reducing charging time.

What will cause people to buy EV's, other than their social conscious, is that the EV's will cost less to buy, eventually, and it is just a fact that they have fewer parts and will use new manufacturing methods, and that they will cost less to operate. ICE's will not be able to maintain a competitive edge.

1000 miles of EV range will not be seen in my lifetime.  And I plan on living another 50 years or so.

EVs are a simpler build, for sure. But the batteries are way expensive and will keep the price of an EV above a comparable ICEV.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-05/-it-s-done-the-future-is-battery-powered-electric-cars

Really not much more to say about this from the OP idea of tracking development.

Motors & Batteries will be continued to be improved, the charging networks will continue to be built. New manufacturing methods will continue to reduce costs.

My prediction is that electric vehicles will dominate the new vehicle market in the next 5 years and within 20 an ICE vehicle will mostly be in collectors barns.

My prediction is that electric vehicles will dominate the new vehicle market in the next 5 years and within 20 an ICE vehicle will mostly be in collectors barns.

1000 mile EV range? hows about we match a typical ICE tank of gas first

Trapper Gus wrote:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-05/-it-s-done-the-future-is-battery-powered-electric-cars

Really not much more to say about this from the OP idea of tracking development.

Motors & Batteries will be continued to be improved, the charging networks will continue to be built.  New manufacturing methods will continue to reduce costs.

My prediction is that electric vehicles will dominate the new vehicle market in the next 5 years and within 20 an ICE vehicle will mostly be in collectors barns.

Been weird watching the development of EV's.  Remember GM's EV1?  Only made 1100 of them.  Couldn't buy one, they only leased them.  Saw one leaving a restaurant.  The only noise you could hear was the sound of the tires rolling over the parking lot.  Not long after went to San Diego because FIL was in the hospital.  Was amazed to see a couple charging ports in the parking garage.  

Currently quoting another battery assembly project for Stellantis.

Left unaddressed by EV promoters is where is the electricity to charge 50 million EVs going to come from when we barely produce enough electricity for current demand.

My NoCal sibling and spouse are LEASING a 2nd EV.  

Deciding between the Kia EV6 and Hyundai IONIQ5.  

They are buying the Chevy Bolt the leased thru Costco ($1000 down/$99 a month)  when the lease ends in Aug ‘24.  Buy option is so good they’ve put call blocking  on the dealership they picked it up from because they are pleading to buy it back.  

In typical GM logic, although their Bolt had a battery that wasn’t made in the plant the recalled batteries were produced they have a voucher for a new battery that has to be used by 2025.  

They think leasing EV’s is a good deal because of the technology is moving very fast.  Tesla depreciation is pretty ugly.

Here in MI with my driving my next car/SUV will be a hybrid, maybe a plug-in hybrid

PS
They also have a Honda Ridgeline for hauling stuff  to their kids in college.

GRR Spartan wrote:My NoCal sibling and spouse are LEASING a 2nd EV.  

Deciding between the Kia EV6 and Hyundai IONIQ5.  

They are buying the Chevy Bolt the leased thru Costco ($1000 down/$99 a month)  when the lease ends in Aug ‘24.  Buy option is so good they’ve put call blocking  on the dealership they picked it up from because they are pleading to buy it back.  

In typical GM logic, although their Bolt had a battery that wasn’t made in the plant the recalled batteries were produced they have a voucher for a new battery that has to be used by 2025.  

They think leasing EV’s is a good deal because of the technology is moving very fast.  Tesla depreciation is pretty ugly.

Here in MI with my driving my next car/SUV will be a hybrid, maybe a plug-in hybrid

PS
They also have a Honda Ridgeline for hauling stuff  to their kids in college.

BIL bought a Honda CRV hybrid few months ago. Has never plugged it in...gas only. Have been refraining from asking my sis why he decided to buy it. Both of them use to work for GM/EDS.

Hybrids are the future and there’s a good reason the Japanese manufacturers have steered clear of electric. My Prius is still going strong. Got in sort of a little road duel with a Tesla on the Highway. Put the pedal down to the metal and pulled away.

GRR Spartan wrote:

Here in MI with my driving my next car/SUV will be a hybrid, maybe a plug-in hybrid

Union made?

Zurn wrote:

GRR Spartan wrote:

Here in MI with my driving my next car/SUV will be a hybrid, maybe a plug-in hybrid

Union made?

With significant parts in all cars made by suppliers, not OEM's do you have any idea how stupid your meme is?

Union made content isn't shown on the sticker.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Zurn wrote:

Union made?

With significant parts in all cars made by suppliers, not OEM's do you have any idea how stupid your meme is?

Union made content isn't shown on the sticker.

I will forward this information (that there are no union made cars) onto my friends in the UAW.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/07/electric-vehicles-ev-market-tesla

Automakers are tapping the brakes on their ambitious electric vehicle (EV) targets, trying to make sense of consumer appetites amid rising interest rates, stubbornly high prices and anxiety about where to recharge.

Reality check: Despite the doom and gloom, EV sales are growing faster than any other segment in the U.S. — and are on track to surpass 1 million annually for the first time this year.

First, EVs are expensive. Prices have come down, but they're still out of reach for many buyers.

Second, charging remains an obstacle. The U.S. had an estimated 141,714 public charging ports as of the second quarter of 2023, according to a National Renewable Energy Laboratory report analyzing U.S. Department of Energy data.

What they're saying: Stephen Beck, founder and managing partner of management consultancy cg24, said the hand-wringing about slowing EV sales is overwrought.

"There are issues that stand in the way of broad-scale adoption. If you want broad-scale adoption, you go address those issues; they haven't changed."

Charging; charging time; range anxiety; charger availability; vehicle pricing.  All issues this board identified years ago.

Still EV sales are up by 50% over last year, for all the media negativity.

edit - November 16th - News flash!  The material used in batteries can be used to make new batteries.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/16/toyota-prius-batteries-recycled-redwood-materials

edit December 20th

Miles per charging hour new measurement of charging speed.

https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicles-charging-cars-buy-7930a638b1a6de48b094a553a1055661

Hertz dumping it's commitment to EVs, getting rid of 20,000.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-maintenance-repair-hidden-costs-ownership-hertz-tesla-2024-1

"Hertz said expensive repairs helped inform its decision to downsize its EV fleet.
The move warns potential EV owners about "hidden" costs.
Repairs for EVs can cost more than those for gas-powered cars."

Zurn wrote:Hertz dumping it's commitment to EVs, getting rid of 20,000.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-maintenance-repair-hidden-costs-ownership-hertz-tesla-2024-1

"Hertz said expensive repairs helped inform its decision to downsize its EV fleet.
The move warns potential EV owners about "hidden" costs.
Repairs for EVs can cost more than those for gas-powered cars."

Headline is BS as Hertz is reducing its EV fleet by 30%, not "dumping" all EV's.

Nothing unexpected there, repair costs, mostly assumed from fender benders, are about 10% more for non Tesla and about 25% more for Tesla.  Tesla with its gigapress processes have larger continuous components, which if damaged are newer processes to repair.

Insurance is higher due to cost of vehicle & cost to repair.

Maintaining is cheaper.

Home charging elrctricity varies (should be less expensive at night aka 8pm to 6 am) and cost to install Class 2 charging is similar to installing an electric clothes dryer or electric stove.

Most of the newer EVs on the market have built into them systems that can power your home, or at least parts of it, during a blackout. They’re called either Vehicle-To-Load (V2L) or Vehicle-To-Home (V2H) systems and they can be a literal lifesaver in the event of a blackout.

https://hartmannreport.com/p/blackouts-did-you-know-ev-cars-are-aa4

Trapper Gus wrote:

Headline is BS as Hertz is reducing its EV fleet by 30%, not "dumping" all EV's.

Trapper, being dishonest doesn't help your cause.

The headline did NOT say Hertz was dumping all EVs.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Headline is BS as Hertz is reducing its EV fleet by 30%, not "dumping" all EV's.

Trapper, being dishonest doesn't help your cause.

The headline did NOT say Hertz was dumping all EVs.  

lol - that is rich coming from a king of dishonest remarks.

However, the use of the word "dumping" is clear.

The headline says Hertz is getting out of EV rentals, aka dumping its "commitment" to EV's.

Whereas the reality is that Hurtz is selling 30% of EV's they currently have, while keeping 70%.  Hardy a "dumping of their commitment", more a adjusting their vehicle mix, most probably to match customers' expectations.

Trapper Gus wrote:

The headline says Hertz is getting out of EV rentals, aka dumping its "commitment" to EV's.

This is the headline:

"Hertz dumping 20,000 EVs is a warning to electric-car owners everywhere"

I'll leave it to the reader to judge Trapper's honesty.

Multiple reports of EV owners being unable to charge their vehicles during this cold weather.

Zurn wrote:Multiple reports of EV owners being unable to charge their vehicles during this cold weather.  

Unable?  No, it just takes longer.

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/16/tesla-charge-cold-weather-electric-vehicles

Tell that to Wes France

https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/energy/4411984-ev-drivers-struggle-to-keep-batteries-charged-amid-winter-freeze/

When I see the words "Multiple reports of EV owners being unable to charge their vehicles during this cold weather" generally I think that means there are unable to charge their cars, not that they have to wait longer, but you be you, I guess.

This charging & performance at cold temperature issue has been running at the back of my mind, so thought a human understandable engineering answer would be helpful.

There are two issues going on here, first the chemical reaction rate and second other electrical loads in the vehicle.

The Arrhenius Equation describes the chemical reaction rate over temperature and says that for every 10 degrees C lower in temperature the chemical reaction rates the rate of the reactions are reduced by a factor of 2.  Another way of saying this is that the battery will take two minutes to charge the same amount at 20C as it does in one minute at 30C.  This is one of the reasons why the charging temperature of the battery is controlled via electronics on the vehicle.

Many, most, or maybe all of the current on the road EV's use resistive (space heater) heaters to heat the passenger compartments.  These are a significant user of battery charge, which reduces range.  They also use a resistive heater in the battery to keep it at an optimum temperature for reaction rate to provide the rate of discharge needed to provide acceptable driving performance.

For charging, if the battery is not heated during the process, then it will take much longer to charge.  There is self-heating due to charging but it may be necessary to augment that with the battery heater.  The power to run the battery heater will reduce the charge being put into the battery.

The first solution for both the cabin heating and the battery heating to reduce energy use is to switch from using resistive heating to using heat pumps for heating.  Heat pumps are typically 800% to 1000% more energy efficient verses resistive heating.  Using less energy for heating adds more energy for charging or driving.  This is not unknown to the vehicle engineers, so they made a cost/weight/complexity analysis and IMO made the wrong choice.

Another, more far out, but possible solution for the charging rate is a hybrid batter with super capacitors & batteries.  The super capacitors can be charged at a much higher rate, greatly reducing charging time, and the charging time of a super capacitor is not as temperature dependent, being an electrical reaction, not chemical, than the batteries.  Over time the super capacitor charge is then storied in the battery, as capacitors are not designed for longer term storage, but the vehicle can be driven away after the capacitors are charged.  I read about a company here in Michigan who has developed pre-production level hybrid batteries that do this and has had them in vehicles for testing.  The issues are cost/weight/complexity, with cost being the deciding factor, probably.

DETROIT — Global competition, uncertainty about policy changes in an election year and the fading impact from federal subsidies all loom as emerging issues for the U.S. electric vehicle (EV) industry.

Those were among the messages Wednesday as dozens of automotive experts filled a conference room near downtown Detroit on Wednesday for the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago’s annual Automotive Insights Symposium.

While much of the U.S. car market is “almost” back to normal following pandemic sales dips, supply chain woes and striking union workers last fall, automakers are still facing “a lot of uncertainty,” Kristin Dziczek, policy adviser for the Chicago Fed said.

Most of that comes from electric vehicles and the industry’s shift away from internal combustion engines, Dziczek and other panelists said Wednesday as they explored business and consumer impacts from the change.

https://www.bridgemi.com/business-watch/auto-experts-competition-politics-fading-subsidies-could-affect-michigan-ev-sales

Opps, it is the chargers that are failing...

https://electrek.co/2024/01/17/electric-vehicles-fail-lower-rate-than-gas-cars-extreme-cold/

Trapper Gus wrote:
The Arrhenius Equation describes the chemical reaction rate over temperature and says that for every 10 degrees C lower in temperature the chemical reaction rates the rate of the reactions are reduced by a factor of 10. Another way of saying this is that the battery will take 10 minutes to charge the same amount at 20C as it does in one minute at 30C.

Just a point of information that the "rule of thumb" approximation of the Arrhenius reaction rate for a chemical reaction is a two-fold difference for every 10 ˚C not a 10-fold difference.

Rick Saunders wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:
The Arrhenius Equation describes the chemical reaction rate over temperature and says that for every 10 degrees C lower in temperature the chemical reaction rates the rate of the reactions are reduced by a factor of 10.  Another way of saying this is that the battery will take 10 minutes to charge the same amount at 20C as it does in one minute at 30C.

Just a point of information that the "rule of thumb" approximation of the Arrhenius reaction rate for a chemical reaction is a two-fold difference for every 10 ˚C not a 10-fold difference.

Thanks, it's been a minute. - Thank you for the correction, it's been 20 years, at least, since I used that for real.

Twice as slow for a 10C drop is still significant

It is still an exponential rate,...

10 degrees is 2 times as long
20 degrees is 4 times as long
30 degrees is 8 times as long
40 degrees is 16 times as long
...

With the basic science problem resolved, Katsoudas adds, Influit is now developing a battery with an energy density rated at 550 to 850 watt-hours per kilogram or higher, as compared to 200 to 350 Wh/kg for a standard EV lithium-ion battery. The company expects larger versions would also beat old-style flow batteries at backing up the grid because the nanoelectrofuel can be reused at least as many times as a flow battery—10,000 or more cycles—and it will probably be cheaper.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/flow-battery-2666672335

A possible improvement to address all the current limitations of existing BEV's

https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-demand-still-strong-despite-slowdown-hybrids-survey-2024-1

Despite the bad press, half of America is still considering an EV or hybrid car — they just want them to be cheaper

Michigan's UP may benefit from the EV switchover, as the minerals that are still in the ground, copper, nickel, gold, silver & of course iron increase in price it becomes more economical to develop new mines.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2024/02/michigan-approves-tesla-suppliers-nickel-exploration-lease.html

LANSING, MI — A mine developer which is on the hunt for critical minerals in Michigan and Minnesota has received approval to drill on public land in the Upper Peninsula.

The Michigan Department of Natural Resources (DNR) approved a mineral lease for Talon Metals to explore for nickel deposits under 23,000 acres in Baraga, Houghton, Iron and Marquette counties, the company announced Wednesday, Jan. 31.

The acreage represents the largest such subsurface mineral lease approval in Michigan since state regulators approved initial drilling for Eagle Mine near Ishpeming.

https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/nebraska-experts-weigh-highway-safety-and-electric-vehicles/

Highway safety barriers can't handle the increased weight of EVs.

Ok engineers. Tell me why this concept can’t work.

[tw]1754140214472151245?s=46&t=o_-92Ldle66XHQBlJVUMFQ[/tw]

The little guy driving couldnt see where he was going.

Stupid mobile double post

Going on vacation n April. Decided to rent an EV. Give it a shot. Why not.