Israel war

Heat Miser wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:Both sides  claim the same land, and for both sides parts of it are founding of their religion holy.

The Brits fucked this up in the 1920's, and we compounded the problem in the 1940's.

Is there a solution?  The two state solution is a bandaid.

Well, there are legal & internationally recognized boundaries. One side continues to violate those boundaries.

When I say the two state solution is a bandaid, if you look at recent, the last 100 years or so, of the history of Palinstine/Israel and the conflict there, where both side want it all, that is what the two state solution is.

Palinstine started 100 years ago, as a Palinstinan state with a small Jewish minority.  Since that time, and with the support of leaders in Europe and the US, a Zionist invasion has occurred, such that now Palistine/Israel is a Jewish controlled state.

Neither the Jews nor the Palestinians want the other there.  The two state solution is a fiction which neither side wanted.

While with cooperation and Brotherhood it could work it goes against the devils in human nature.

Ultra lib social media driven voters should take note.

Trump press secretary wrote:“Jewish Americans and Jewish leaders around the world recognize that President Trump did more for them and the State of Israel than any President in history,” Leavitt said via email. “The bottom line is that Kamala Harris and Joe Biden cave to Far-Left extremists and terrorists while President Trump will protect Jewish Americans and put American citizens first.”

Jews and Catholics warn against Trump's latest loyalty test for religious voters

Contrary to the driving force behind the far left pro-trump movement.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Ultra lib social media driven voters should take note.

Trump press secretary wrote:“Jewish Americans and Jewish leaders around the world recognize that President Trump did more for them and the State of Israel than any President in history,” Leavitt said via email. “The bottom line is that Kamala Harris and Joe Biden cave to Far-Left extremists and terrorists while President Trump will protect Jewish Americans and put American citizens first.”

Jews and Catholics warn against Trump's latest loyalty test for religious voters

Contrary to the driving force behind the far left pro-trump movement.

What an ignorant statement from the Trump campaign. The President who did more for Israel than any other is the one who first supported the creation of the state of Israel, Harry Truman.

Well, it's ignorant on many fronts, but point being the current far-left should know that she more or less said... if you think Biden was bad in Gaza, Just you wait. Trump will be THE WORST.

Israel claims they have killed Hezbollahs leader

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/28/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-hamas-war-news-gaza/

The Israel Defense Forces said the leader of the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah was dead, after it hit what it called Hezbollah’s “central headquarters” in Beirut’s southern suburbs.

Some historical perspective that western media conveniently ignores:

Israel's Apartheid Against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime Against Humanity

More historical context

Anyone who looks into the history sees that the situation was totally fucked up from the beginning, but that the group with the most overt western support, the Zionists, is really the group that at the time of the support was the one with really no claim on Palistine at all.

What most people don't get is the extent of anti-jewish feelings by the western leaders which caused them to want to expel Jews from their country's. A Jewish land in Palistine was a handy, though stupid, solution.

Hitler was only one amoung many western leaders who hated the Jews.

Trapper Gus wrote:Anyone who looks into the history sees that the situation was totally fucked up from the beginning, but that the group with the most overt western support, the Zionists, is really the group that at the time of the support was the one with really no claim on Palistine at all.

What most people don't get is the extent of anti-jewish feelings by the western leaders which caused them to want to expel Jews from their country's.  A Jewish land in Palistine was a handy, though stupid, solution.

Hitler was only one amoung many western leaders who hated the Jews.

Oft ignored is that the Germans tried to resettle Jews to Palestine in the 30s before deciding to slaughter them all. They also tried northern Canada if I remember correctly, they were looking for anywhere that was as inhospitable as possible. And most countries set hard limits, sometimes 0, on how many they’d take in

As Bob says, religions create more problems in the world than solutions.

Trapper Gus wrote:Anyone who looks into the history sees that the situation was totally fucked up from the beginning, but that the group with the most overt western support, the Zionists, is really the group that at the time of the support was the one with really no claim on Palistine at all.

What most people don't get is the extent of anti-jewish feelings by the western leaders which caused them to want to expel Jews from their country's.  A Jewish land in Palistine was a handy, though stupid, solution.

Hitler was only one amoung many western leaders who hated the Jews.

Both sides can make an argument for the land, whether the argument is good depends on your perspective.  It would be nice if some bigger country just gave them some land with a good supply of fresh water and a narrow strip to the ocean to build a port.  But alas, nobody did that and this is what we have   endless war.  Israel, like Russia, is eventually going to need more land too so you know this isn't going to end as they will eventually grab the West Bank against international wishes.

If I was in Iran, I’d be asking why Revolutionary Guard as booking rooms in Beirut hotels.

Are they showing this wonky Kamala waffles on everything because she's losing but one thing will never change and that's her support for Israel "Pro" Harris commercial everywhere or just in the Detroit market?

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Are they showing this wonky Kamala waffles on everything because she's losing but one thing will never change and that's her support for Israel "Pro" Harris commercial everywhere or just in the Detroit market?

Be honest with yourself. Harris changing her positions from 2020 to 2024 after four years of experience as Veep is not "waffling", but if you want to watch waffling look at Trump's position history.

Trapper Gus wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Are they showing this wonky Kamala waffles on everything because she's losing but one thing will never change and that's her support for Israel "Pro" Harris commercial everywhere or just in the Detroit market?

Be honest with yourself. Harris changing her positions from 2020 to 2024 after four years of experience as Veep is not "waffling", but if you want to watch waffling look at Trump's position history.

All politicians waffle. Left, right, Green Party... doesn't matter. Once you get to that level, you've got more waffles than an interstate pancake house.

Trapper Gus wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Are they showing this wonky Kamala waffles on everything because she's losing but one thing will never change and that's her support for Israel "Pro" Harris commercial everywhere or just in the Detroit market?

Be honest with yourself. Harris changing her positions from 2020 to 2024 after four years of experience as Veep is not "waffling", but if you want to watch waffling look at Trump's position history.

I guess this went over your head. Has anyone outside of the Detroit market seen the commercial I'm referencing? It is odd to say the least.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Are they showing this wonky Kamala waffles on everything because she's losing but one thing will never change and that's her support for Israel "Pro" Harris commercial everywhere or just in the Detroit market?

Be honest with yourself. Harris changing her positions from 2020 to 2024 after four years of experience as Veep is not "waffling", but if you want to watch waffling look at Trump's position history.

I guess this went over your head. Has anyone outside of the Detroit market seen the commercial I'm referencing? It is odd to say the least.

Not odd at all. It's obviously aimed at the MI arab community. I'd imagine it's being aired wherever that community is significant. MN & PA for example.

Trapper Gus wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Are they showing this wonky Kamala waffles on everything because she's losing but one thing will never change and that's her support for Israel "Pro" Harris commercial everywhere or just in the Detroit market?

Be honest with yourself.  Harris changing her positions from 2020 to 2024 after four years of experience as Veep is not "waffling", but if you want to watch waffling look at Trump's position history.

Who cares if she waffles on a few things.  Its a good thing. Shows her views can change and is necessary to please different groups in the run up to the election.  

How many times has Trump waffled?  Trump has waffled on freaking abortion and that's wayyy more important to voters.  And I'm sure dozens of other things.  Nobody is convinced by these dumb commercials. Trump waffled on freaking treason for God's sake. Did all this crap to defraud the election and now says he lost by a wisker. So he says he won, but then he didn't?

https://x.com/classicsgroyp/status/1831162803610103939?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1831162803610103939%7Ctwgr%5E3f93074dc75a93e0ce2afa3af81c463f0cf66834%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitframe.com%2Fshow%3Furl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Ffoo%2Fstatus%2F1831162803610103939

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Be honest with yourself.  Harris changing her positions from 2020 to 2024 after four years of experience as Veep is not "waffling", but if you want to watch waffling look at Trump's position history.

I guess this went over your head. Has anyone outside of the Detroit market seen the commercial I'm referencing? It is odd to say the least.

Not here (Up North). We keep getting the clearly edited audio of her saying all transgender inmates get government funded sex change operations. Ya know. For like the two people it covers… Sadly it’s a well placed ad knowing the bandwidth capacity of his  supporters up here.

That being said it’s a terrible position only in that it fires up more people against her than it brings in.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Be honest with yourself.  Harris changing her positions from 2020 to 2024 after four years of experience as Veep is not "waffling", but if you want to watch waffling look at Trump's position history.

I guess this went over your head. Has anyone outside of the Detroit market seen the commercial I'm referencing? It is odd to say the least.

That is the great thing about being as obtuse as I am, everything has to be spelled out in detail or it goes over my head.

Israel has moved into southern Lebanon.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-gaza-news-09-30-2024-83ea5f243688f309754ec74850de4238

Trapper Gus wrote:Meanwhile President Biden is still working towards World Peace.

https://www.axios.com/2024/07/23/us-israel-gaza-rebuild-talks-uae

How's that going, by the way?

Trapper Gus wrote:

Cameron wrote:

If I'm interpreting that correctly, I take it to mean that you think that if we cut Israel off, they could end up nuking Iran. And your preferred geopolitical move is to keep sending THAT regime weapons?

You should apologize to all of us for making us read your drivel.

You got it.

IMO the US has been holding Israel back from an all-out war.

Maybe you have forgotten that Iran launched a missile attack on Israel a few weeks ago, after Israel was blamed for the death of a Hamas leader in Iran, which was shot down by the US Naval task forces and Israel's neighbors and the US then talked Israel down from a counterattack.

The US's role here is to keep this hot war from spreading, which I think we should all agree is in our national interests.

edit - story about Hamas indirectly thanking Iran for its support...

In the letter, dated Monday, Sinwar thanks Nasrallah for the “blessed acts” of Iran-backed groups in their support for Hamas since Oct. 7

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-latest-13-september-2024-14befa272bc68b53b419c1398d2e8970

How's that going, by the way?

Cameron wrote:Israel's Rafah operation not a major offensive - US

The US does not believe Israel has launched a full-scale invasion of Rafah in southern Gaza, White House spokesman John Kirby has said.

He spoke hours after Israeli forces reached the centre of the city and reportedly seized a strategically important hill overlooking the nearby border with Egypt.

US President Joe Biden has previously said a full-scale invasion in Rafah, where hundreds of thousands of civilians are still thought to be sheltering, would cross a red line.

Funny how that red line seems to keep moving. #CrushingIt

Turns out, there are no red lines. Literally none, there is nothing they could do that would cause Genocide Joe to stop shipping money and weapons.

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:Meanwhile President Biden is still working towards World Peace.

https://www.axios.com/2024/07/23/us-israel-gaza-rebuild-talks-uae

How's that going, by the way?

Trapper Gus wrote:

You got it.

IMO the US has been holding Israel back from an all-out war.

Maybe you have forgotten that Iran launched a missile attack on Israel a few weeks ago, after Israel was blamed for the death of a Hamas leader in Iran, which was shot down by the US Naval task forces and Israel's neighbors and the US then talked Israel down from a counterattack.

The US's role here is to keep this hot war from spreading, which I think we should all agree is in our national interests.

edit - story about Hamas indirectly thanking Iran for its support...



https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-latest-13-september-2024-14befa272bc68b53b419c1398d2e8970

How's that going, by the way?

Have you considered that other buyers of arms from the us might not like it if we don’t keep selling weapons to Israel and that Raytheon stock might drop by half a point tomorrow? Have you even thought of the shareholders?

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Cameron wrote:

How's that going, by the way?



How's that going, by the way?

Have you considered that other buyers of arms from the us might not like it if we don’t keep selling weapons to Israel and that Raytheon stock might drop by half a point tomorrow? Have you even thought of the shareholders?

The shareholders and other stakeholders, such as the employees that work at those companies, the local,state and national governments who gain tax value from those companies, et al.

I think I have alluded to this set of interests when attempting to rationally discuss this topic, yes.

Oh no, if we stop letting israel slaughter Lebanese and Palestinian people the people that willing work for the murder machine company won’t be able to sell as many murder machines and might have to find a job doing something other than selling murder machines for profit ::(((( OH NO!!!!

I love how this doesn’t factor into your calculus at all when you say you think we should ban guns. But, you’re full of shit so it is what it is I guess.

kingstonlake wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

I guess this went over your head. Has anyone outside of the Detroit market seen the commercial I'm referencing? It is odd to say the least.

Not here (Up North). We keep getting the clearly edited audio of her saying all transgender inmates get government funded sex change operations. Ya know. For like the two people it covers… Sadly it’s a well placed ad knowing the bandwidth capacity of his  supporters up here.

That being said it’s a terrible position only in that it fires up more people against her than it brings in.

I saw that one on Monday night football. It's so absurdly chopped up and doesn't sound remotely real. People are very dumb though.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Oh no, if we stop letting israel slaughter Lebanese and Palestinian people the people that willing work for the murder machine company won’t be able to sell as many murder machines and might have to find a job doing something other than selling murder machines for profit ::(((( OH NO!!!!

I love how this doesn’t factor into your calculus at all when you say you think we should ban guns. But, you’re full of shit so it is what it is I guess.

I don't use the emotions regarding the killing of thousands of people in a war where there are two sides making decisions which create that killing as the only gage of what is involved.

The United States killed hundreds of thousands in the middle east wars of choice, predictable, but a majority of the country supported those wars and even now a majority of the country ahores the act of the President who withdrew us from one of them.

Without the emotions the reality of who profits from wars around the globe, and the effect on our economy, should not be belittled in a serous conversation.

Closing or reducing the workforce at those companies will have serious effects on the communities where they are located.  Your comment made it sound like stockholders are the only stakeholders, not correct of course, Milton Friedman not withstanding, so pointing out some of the other stakeholders seemed appropriate.

While some on this board are willing to think is simplistic terms, politicians in government typically don't  have that luxury.

Yes, the funding of weapons of war by the US is typically the US granting funds to other countries who then use those funds to buy weapons from US companies.  This creates political support for these wars.

It’s such a cluster fuck. I hate that civilians are getting slaughtered in what seems like a random murder fest. I also hate that if they stop then Palestine and Lebanon can get back to the status quo of oppressing women and anyone who doesn’t fall in line with their fucked up ideologies.

kingstonlake wrote:It’s such a cluster fuck. I hate that civilians are getting slaughtered in what seems like a random murder fest. I also hate that if they stop then Palestine and Lebanon can get back to the status quo of oppressing women and anyone who doesn’t fall in line with their fucked up ideologies.

How successful have we been historically at stopping that oppression? We pretty much make it worse in every case with our interference, whether it's militarily or with sanctions.

Also, everyone knows that any halt to arms for Israel would be temporary until they got back in line with the program. Any excess production capacity could then be diverted to Ukraine. The US military industrial complex will find customers. There are plenty out there. Humans love conflict. They can't help themselves.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Oh no, if we stop letting israel slaughter Lebanese and Palestinian people the people that willing work for the murder machine company won’t be able to sell as many murder machines and might have to find a job doing something other than selling murder machines for profit ::(((( OH NO!!!!

I love how this doesn’t factor into your calculus at all when you say you think we should ban guns. But, you’re full of shit so it is what it is I guess.

I don't use the emotions regarding the killing of thousands of people in a war where there are two sides making decisions which create that killing as the only gage of what is involved.

The United States killed hundreds of thousands in the middle east wars of choice, predictable, but a majority of the country supported those wars and even now a majority of the country ahores the act of the President who withdrew us from one of them.

Without the emotions the reality of who profits from wars around the globe, and the effect on our economy, should not be belittled in a serous conversation.

Closing or reducing the workforce at those companies will have serious effects on the communities where they are located.  Your comment made it sound like stockholders are the only stakeholders, not correct of course, Milton Friedman not withstanding, so pointing out some of the other stakeholders seemed appropriate.

While some on this board are willing to think is simplistic terms, politicians in government typically don't  have that luxury.

Yes, the funding of weapons of war by the US is typically the US granting funds to other countries who then use those funds to buy weapons from US companies.  This creates political support for these wars.

It’s not about emotions. It’s about not being insane. Let me help you here- worrying about the shareholders of for profit war companies is completely insane.

Heat Miser wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:It’s such a cluster fuck. I hate that civilians are getting slaughtered in what seems like a random murder fest. I also hate that if they stop then Palestine and Lebanon can get back to the status quo of oppressing women and anyone who doesn’t fall in line with their fucked up ideologies.

How successful have we been historically at stopping that oppression? We pretty much make it worse in every case with our interference, whether it's militarily or with sanctions.

Also, everyone knows that any halt to arms for Israel would be temporary until they got back in line with the program. Any excess production capacity could then be diverted to Ukraine. The US military industrial complex will find customers. There are plenty out there. Humans love conflict. They can't help themselves.

Kinda feels like supporting either side is silly. It’s all a fake for profit scheme. Both sides are rooted in biblical hatred for the other and in some instances their own people. I guess it’s kinda why I’m not really that emotionally invested on the outcome either way. I can hate the horrible acts both sides commit towards other humans who should be treated equally. But in the end I wish we’d bow out entirely.

kingstonlake wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

How successful have we been historically at stopping that oppression? We pretty much make it worse in every case with our interference, whether it's militarily or with sanctions.

Also, everyone knows that any halt to arms for Israel would be temporary until they got back in line with the program. Any excess production capacity could then be diverted to Ukraine. The US military industrial complex will find customers. There are plenty out there. Humans love conflict. They can't help themselves.

Kinda feels like supporting either side is silly. It’s all a fake for profit scheme. Both sides are rooted in biblical hatred for the other and in some instances their own people. I guess it’s kinda why I’m not really that emotionally invested on the outcome either way. I can hate the horrible acts both sides commit towards other humans who should be treated equally. But in the end I wish we’d bow out entirely.

Iran has religious dreams of taking over the middle-east, which are probably not in the national interests of the US.

Trapper Gus wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

How successful have we been historically at stopping that oppression? We pretty much make it worse in every case with our interference, whether it's militarily or with sanctions.

Also, everyone knows that any halt to arms for Israel would be temporary until they got back in line with the program. Any excess production capacity could then be diverted to Ukraine. The US military industrial complex will find customers. There are plenty out there. Humans love conflict. They can't help themselves.

Kinda feels like supporting either side is silly. It’s all a fake for profit scheme. Both sides are rooted in biblical hatred for the other and in some instances their own people. I guess it’s kinda why I’m not really that emotionally invested on the outcome either way. I can hate the horrible acts both sides commit towards other humans who should be treated equally. But in the end I wish we’d bow out entirely.

Iran has religious dreams of taking over the middle-east, which are probably not in the national interests of the US.

That is speculation with no basis in reality. The only country in the middle east that has successfully occupied territory beyond their borders is Israel.

Heat Miser wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Iran has religious dreams of taking over the middle-east, which are probably not in the national interests of the US.

That is speculation with no basis in reality. The only country in the middle east that has successfully occupied territory beyond their borders is Israel.

Well not no basis in reality given their surrogates in Yeman, Lebanon, Israel and their war with Iraq back in the day.

Their direct results are limited but that doesn't mean they don't have intentions.

edit added link

https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/expressions/what-does-iran-really-want

Heat Miser wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Iran has religious dreams of taking over the middle-east, which are probably not in the national interests of the US.

That is speculation with no basis in reality. The only country in the middle east that has successfully occupied territory beyond their borders is Israel.

Weren’t they a fairly flourishing democracy before the Islamic revolution?

kingstonlake wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

That is speculation with no basis in reality. The only country in the middle east that has successfully occupied territory beyond their borders is Israel.

Weren’t they a fairly flourishing democracy before the Islamic revolution?

"The Shaq of Iran" put in power by the United States during the Eisenhower Administration because the democraticly elected government was not to our liking?

kingstonlake wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Iran has religious dreams of taking over the middle-east, which are probably not in the national interests of the US.

That is speculation with no basis in reality. The only country in the middle east that has successfully occupied territory beyond their borders is Israel.

Weren’t they a fairly flourishing democracy before the Islamic revolution?

Iran? No. It was an Imperial US aligned state headed by the Shah of Iran. The main reason they're not "flourishing" now is because they're not US aligned. It's actually a global apartheid system. If you don't bow to the US, you get sanctioned into poverty. And we wonder where the radicalization and hatred comes from.

Heat Miser wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

Weren’t they a fairly flourishing democracy before the Islamic revolution?

Iran? No. It was an Imperial US aligned state headed by the Shah of Iran. The main reason they're not "flourishing" now is because they're not US aligned. It's actually a global apartheid system. If you don't bow to the US, you get sanctioned into poverty. And we wonder where the radicalization and hatred comes from.

Maybe I was thinking Iraq? I’m probably misinterpreting “westernized” as flourishing.

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Way to go, Genocide Joe! Great job on the de-escalation! What a statesman!