Joe Biden is crushing it.

kingstonlake wrote:While I don’t have the strong feelings some do about the bombings of  civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I’m not degenerate enough to say fuck them they deserved it.

And like Nigel said, Penn is really bad at making comparisons.

Hamas doesn’t equal Palestinian civilians

Japanese citizens do not equal Japanese authoritarian rule by the military. (Tojo)

And putting American citizens in internment camps does not equal casualties of war. Fuck, some of you need to get a grip.

PennSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:While I don’t have the strong feelings some do about the bombings of  civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I’m not degenerate enough to say fuck them they deserved it.

And like Nigel said, Penn is really bad at making comparisons.

Hamas doesn’t equal Palestinian civilians

Japanese citizens do not equal Japanese authoritarian rule by the military. (Tojo)

I’m going to guess you didn’t have a father who spent three years in the Philippines in WWII like I did. And two uncles who were permanently disabled in that war. Fuck you instead of Japan, then.

And I'm guessing you don't have family who got sent to one of FDR's camps and lost everything. So fuck you, too.

PennSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:While I don’t have the strong feelings some do about the bombings of  civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I’m not degenerate enough to say fuck them they deserved it.

And like Nigel said, Penn is really bad at making comparisons.

Hamas doesn’t equal Palestinian civilians

Japanese citizens do not equal Japanese authoritarian rule by the military. (Tojo)

I’m going to guess you didn’t have a father who spent three years in the Philippines in WWII like I did. And two uncles who were permanently disabled in that war. Fuck you instead of Japan, then.

Tell them thank you for their service.

But you’re still a degenerate.

How many dead civilians is a satisfactory amount to even the score?

PennSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

Tell them thank you for their service.

But you’re still a degenerate.

How many dead civilians is a satisfactory amount to even the score?

I don’t care.

Such a sad, weak, and bitter old man.

PennSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

Such a sad, weak, and bitter old man.

I just care more about America than you do. Check in with Bob for the America is Stupid club. I’m sure he has space.

Nah, you don’t. You really don’t.

PennSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

Such a sad, weak, and bitter old man.

I just care more about America than you do. Check in with Bob for the America is Stupid club. I’m sure he has space.

This is what you want to have a big dick contest about.

Bob is right, you are stupid.

My grandfather was a marine and fought in the South Pacific against Japan. The only thing he ever said about the war to my uncle or my mother was that what we (the Americans) did was just as bad as what the Japanese did.

So fuck you Penn, you pants shitting piece of shit.

The Japanese Empire did unspeakably horrible things. The internment camps and the atomic bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki are all stains on our country and sources of everlasting national shame.

Nothing good came of WWII, other than the potential lessons that we seemingly have failed to learn. Millions of unnecessary deaths and immeasurable human suffering. Wrong all around, and patterns are repeating.

Earth is a stupid planet, humanity is a stupid species. America is not special.

Not sure I understand "nothing good came of WWII"

While the war was horrible, the Allied victory shut down the ambitions of three power hungry dictators who liked to start wars and in the aftermath the United States forced upon many of the nations a new global order which helped develop a global way of limiting wars.

Pax America.

While small wars still are horrible we have avoided, thus far, another global hot war...

That might not seem like much, but it is estimated that over 80 million people died because of WWII, the number of lives lost in wars since then don't come close, thank god.

TravelinMan wrote:

sεяεηιτλ wrote:

Except he did.  Reagan privatized prisons, which you know, imprisons American citizens and now we run what is effectively the largest system of internment camps on the planet.  The libertarian in you should NOT be singing Reagan's praises.  We have something like 5% of the world's population and 20% of the world's incarcerated persons.  China, the communist country we love to hate, has 4x our population and less people in prisons.  Thank you, Ronald Reagan, for privatizing prisons, and building the foundation for a system that incentivizes incarceration for profit. We were at war under FDR, what's Reagan's excuse for this which is targeted almost exclusively at our citizens? Utterly deplorable.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/Prison_Payoff_Report_WPP_2000.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjz9obXp5OIAxXuSjABHdFKJ5oQFnoECFQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2oB2mAoBuumSXVdWfONX6f

Those prisoners at least got a trial. 120,000 Japanese Americans were not afforded that luxury with FDR.

A trial means less and less with a society that incentivizes incarceration. Ever wonder why people protest the US prison system? It's akin to the military industrial complex - the prison industrial complex, it's an interwoven complex set of factors that lead to more and more people being locked up, a great many people that just need help and committed non-violent offenses... all for profit.

TravelinMan wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:

I’m going to guess you didn’t have a father who spent three years in the Philippines in WWII like I did. And two uncles who were permanently disabled in that war. Fuck you instead of Japan, then.

And I'm guessing you don't have family who got sent to one of FDR's camps and lost everything. So fuck you, too.

If you're going to go after FDR and claim he was horrible for that, you pretty much have to go after every president before him for various other heinous mistakes. only after world war 2 have we truly gotten to the point where racism and general douchebaggery are frowned upon in these parts... until trump.

Trapper Gus wrote:Not sure I understand "nothing good came of WWII"

While the war was horrible, the Allied victory shut down the ambitions of three power hungry dictators who liked to start wars and in the aftermath the United States forced upon many of the nations a new global order which helped develop a global way of limiting wars.

Pax America.

While small wars still are horrible we have avoided, thus far, another global hot war...

That might not seem like much, but it is estimated that over 80 million people died because of WWII, the number of lives lost in wars since then don't come close, thank god.

How high we go in the dark.

Even in the darkest of timelines, we humans often come out the other side better. As of late though, it does seem the stakes are only getting higher and higher, let's hope our past mistakes have led us to a point where we can avoid a global conflict. The atom bomb has kept the peace so far, but there's a sense that it won't last forever. Throw in resource constraints into the usual geopolitical chaos and we might not make it out of the dark.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Because Nipponese who immigrated from Japan were, according to Wiki, not allowed to become citizens, thus some part of the Nipponese put in camps were not citizens.

edit - looked it up...about one third (~33%) were not US citizens.

So "only" 80,000 American citizens interned.

You're right. Reagan was way worse. Breaking up that air traffic controller strike was a war crime.

Pretty much a bait and switch on your part...

Reagan started the process of handing all the power in the country over to the billionaires and grinding the poor in poverty with leoliberal economics.

FDR started the process of creating a better life for the 99% which is the reason you went to collage and were well paid at your job.

Your right. Reagan was a monster, FDR was a saint.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

One mistake during a war when many Niponese Amaricians were not allowed to vote or for that matter become citizens...

You have nothing other than this.

He put American citizens in internment camps, and you think I need to comeup with MORE reasons?!? WTF is wrong with you?

Yes, since he was Predident for 12 years and did a whole bunch of stuff...one act is not the entirety of his Presideancy.

I will credit Reagan with fixing social security for a generation.

Out of curiosity what is it called when something bad happens to somebody and they want everyone else around them hurt as well to even the score or make them feel better?

PennSpartan wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

And I'm guessing you don't have family who got sent to one of FDR's camps and lost everything. So fuck you, too.

I don’t have any family that’s Japanese and attacked America.

You utter imbecile. They were AMERICAN CITIZENS YOU STUPID FUCK! They didn't attack anyone!

Fuck you you stupid piece of shit.

kingstonlake wrote:Out of curiosity what is it called when something bad happens to somebody and they want everyone else around them hurt as well to even the score or make them feel better?

republican/libertarianism?

I don’t really think that stack ranking presidents like it’s a fuckin espn power ranking is a useful exercise, it doesn’t make sense. We’ve had many many very bad presidents, saying this one is worse than that one is nonsense because there’s such vastly different contexts with which to view it. Reagan was a very very bad president. So were many others. Which is worse? That depends on who you ask. Was the trail of tears worse than internment camps? I guess that depends on if you’re talking to a Japanese American or a Native American. Everyone, hopefully, would acknowledge both as regrettable errors. Some people are going to view it as worse than that. Were either worse than the countless presidents that literally bought and sold people in their personal lives? I suppose if you were one of the people bought and sold by a president you’d have a different opinion than if you weren’t. 

TLDR summary what are we even arguing about there is no ranking of presidents who cares which one ranks 41 vs 43 they both suck

TravelinMan wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:

I don’t have any family that’s Japanese and attacked America.

You utter imbecile. They were AMERICAN CITIZENS YOU STUPID FUCK! They didn't attack anyone!

Fuck you you stupid piece of shit.

I believe the word you’re looking for is RACIST. He’s a RACIST.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I don’t really think that stack ranking presidents like it’s a fuckin espn power ranking is a useful exercise, it doesn’t make sense. We’ve had many many very bad presidents, saying this one is worse than that one is nonsense because there’s such vastly different contexts with which to view it. Reagan was a very very bad president. So were many others. Which is worse? That depends on who you ask. Was the trail of tears worse than internment camps? I guess that depends on if you’re talking to a Japanese American or a Native American. Everyone, hopefully, would acknowledge both as regrettable errors. Some people are going to view it as worse than that. Were either worse than the countless presidents that literally bought and sold people in their personal lives? I suppose if you were one of the people bought and sold by a president you’d have a different opinion than if you weren’t. 

TLDR summary what are we even arguing about there is no ranking of presidents who cares which one ranks 41 vs 43 they both suck

I'm discussing their general policies with a focus on economics...

FYI historians do create rankings of Presidents, but IMOthe ranking of recent or living Presidents is highly subjective to revisions as the longer term results of their policies become clear.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I don’t really think that stack ranking presidents like it’s a fuckin espn power ranking is a useful exercise, it doesn’t make sense. We’ve had many many very bad presidents, saying this one is worse than that one is nonsense because there’s such vastly different contexts with which to view it. Reagan was a very very bad president. So were many others. Which is worse? That depends on who you ask. Was the trail of tears worse than internment camps? I guess that depends on if you’re talking to a Japanese American or a Native American. Everyone, hopefully, would acknowledge both as regrettable errors. Some people are going to view it as worse than that. Were either worse than the countless presidents that literally bought and sold people in their personal lives? I suppose if you were one of the people bought and sold by a president you’d have a different opinion than if you weren’t. 

TLDR summary what are we even arguing about there is no ranking of presidents who cares which one ranks 41 vs 43 they both suck

I'm discussing their general policies with a focus on economics...

FYI historians do create rankings of Presidents, but IMOthe ranking of recent or living Presidents is highly subjective to revisions as the longer term results of their policies become clear.

Historians do it??? I guess I should think it’s a good exercise then.

It’s stupid when they do it too. 

Convenient that you’re focusing on economics when talking about FDR when clearly the person you’re talking to isn’t. Keeps you clear from talking about any of that nasty business of locking people up for no reason.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I'm discussing their general policies with a focus on economics...

FYI historians do create rankings of Presidents, but IMOthe ranking of recent or living Presidents is highly subjective to revisions as the longer term results of their policies become clear.

Historians do it??? I guess I should think it’s a good exercise then.

It’s stupid when they do it too. 

Convenient that you’re focusing on economics when talking about FDR when clearly the person you’re talking to isn’t. Keeps you clear from talking about any of that nasty business of locking people up for no reason.

Economics is one of the most important functions of governments and one I'm interested in.  BTW it was my post about Biden & now Harris going back to FDR's economic policies that started this, so if you want to complain about being off track talk to the other guys...never mind what the overall thread is about...

One historical note about the internment of the Japanese (just for you guys), about 40k, & the sons and daughters, US Citizens, of the Japanese, about 80k, that the people wringing their hands about it since 1978 ignore, is that in 1942 the US was practically defenseless against an attack by Japan on the West Coast.  I don't know if it's true or not, but in the movie "Pearl Harbor" one of Roosevelt's advisors says " if the Japanese attacked the west coast right now they would get as far as Chicago before we could stop them".  The point is there were real military considerations involved at the time this policy was put in place, with our leadership being unsure of what was likely to happen and unsure of the loyaltyies of 40k people who were born in Japan, most who had friends & family in Japan,  and the loyalties of their children, most of whom would have been raised In a culture at home of deference to their parents.

A further add to this was that supposedly at Pearl Japanese living there were providing military Intellagance to Japsn in real time about ships at Pearl.

It was partly a better safe than sorry policy.  In 20/20 hindsight it wasn't necessary as Japan only invaded the west coast with one scouting unit on a specific assignment.

The US military had similar concerns about 1st & 2nd generation immigrants of German descent, though not to the extent of segregating them into camps, but then an invasion of the US by Germany at that time was considered very remote.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Historians do it??? I guess I should think it’s a good exercise then.

It’s stupid when they do it too. 

Convenient that you’re focusing on economics when talking about FDR when clearly the person you’re talking to isn’t. Keeps you clear from talking about any of that nasty business of locking people up for no reason.

Economics is one of the most important functions of governments and one I'm interested in.  BTW it was my post about Biden & now Harris going back to FDR's economic policies that started this, so if you want to complain about being off track talk to the other guys...never mind what the overall thread is about...

One historical note about the internment of the Japanese (just for you guys), about 40k, & the sons and daughters, US Citizens, of the Japanese, about 80k, that the people wringing their hands about it since 1978 ignore, is that in 1942 the US was practically defenseless against an attack by Japan on the West Coast.  I don't know if it's true or not, but in the movie "Pearl Harbor" one of Roosevelt's advisors says " if the Japanese attacked the west coast right now they would get as far as Chicago before we could stop them".  The point is there were real military considerations involved at the time this policy was put in place, with our leadership being unsure of what was likely to happen and unsure of the loyaltyies of 40k people who were born in Japan, most who had friends & family in Japan,  and the loyalties of their children, most of whom would have been raised In a culture at home of deference to their parents.

A further add to this was that supposedly at Pearl Japanese living there were providing military Intellagance to Japsn in real time about ships at Pearl.

It was partly a better safe than sorry policy.  In 20/20 hindsight it wasn't necessary as Japan only invaded the west coast with one scouting unit on a specific assignment.

The US military had similar concerns about 1st & 2nd generation immigrants of German descent, though not to the extent of segregating them into camps, but then an invasion of the US by Germany at that time was considered very remote.

Please stop defending xenophobic mass incarceration because you like the letter next to the name of the president that did it thank you

So now troll Penn cares more about America.

Okay.  
What branch of the US military did PennSpartan enlist?
How many years of active duty did PennSpartan serve?

All these mf’ers say they “CARE” but never have done anything but pay taxes.  They support people who want to amend the First  Amendment, put public monies into private schools, make it easier to carry guns, make it more difficult to vote and purge voter rolls at the 11th hour so there’s no time to rectify the errors.

When anyone says they  “Care more” it’s like those who need to tell you they are “Christians”.  If they have to tell you, their actions say otherwise.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Historians do it??? I guess I should think it’s a good exercise then.

It’s stupid when they do it too. 

Convenient that you’re focusing on economics when talking about FDR when clearly the person you’re talking to isn’t. Keeps you clear from talking about any of that nasty business of locking people up for no reason.

Economics is one of the most important functions of governments and one I'm interested in.  BTW it was my post about Biden & now Harris going back to FDR's economic policies that started this, so if you want to complain about being off track talk to the other guys...never mind what the overall thread is about...

One historical note about the internment of the Japanese (just for you guys), about 40k, & the sons and daughters, US Citizens, of the Japanese, about 80k, that the people wringing their hands about it since 1978 ignore, is that in 1942 the US was practically defenseless against an attack by Japan on the West Coast.  I don't know if it's true or not, but in the movie "Pearl Harbor" one of Roosevelt's advisors says " if the Japanese attacked the west coast right now they would get as far as Chicago before we could stop them".  The point is there were real military considerations involved at the time this policy was put in place, with our leadership being unsure of what was likely to happen and unsure of the loyaltyies of 40k people who were born in Japan, most who had friends & family in Japan,  and the loyalties of their children, most of whom would have been raised In a culture at home of deference to their parents.

A further add to this was that supposedly at Pearl Japanese living there were providing military Intellagance to Japsn in real time about ships at Pearl.

It was partly a better safe than sorry policy.  In 20/20 hindsight it wasn't necessary as Japan only invaded the west coast with one scouting unit on a specific assignment.

The US military had similar concerns about 1st & 2nd generation immigrants of German descent, though not to the extent of segregating them into camps, but then an invasion of the US by Germany at that time was considered very remote.

Infrastructure is an important function of the government and one people care about deeply. Mussolini made the trains ran on time.

Love,
Trapper

Calm down Bullwrinkle err Travelin’Man.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Economics is one of the most important functions of governments and one I'm interested in.  BTW it was my post about Biden & now Harris going back to FDR's economic policies that started this, so if you want to complain about being off track talk to the other guys...never mind what the overall thread is about...

One historical note about the internment of the Japanese (just for you guys), about 40k, & the sons and daughters, US Citizens, of the Japanese, about 80k, that the people wringing their hands about it since 1978 ignore, is that in 1942 the US was practically defenseless against an attack by Japan on the West Coast.  I don't know if it's true or not, but in the movie "Pearl Harbor" one of Roosevelt's advisors says " if the Japanese attacked the west coast right now they would get as far as Chicago before we could stop them".  The point is there were real military considerations involved at the time this policy was put in place, with our leadership being unsure of what was likely to happen and unsure of the loyaltyies of 40k people who were born in Japan, most who had friends & family in Japan,  and the loyalties of their children, most of whom would have been raised In a culture at home of deference to their parents.

A further add to this was that supposedly at Pearl Japanese living there were providing military Intellagance to Japsn in real time about ships at Pearl.

It was partly a better safe than sorry policy.  In 20/20 hindsight it wasn't necessary as Japan only invaded the west coast with one scouting unit on a specific assignment.

The US military had similar concerns about 1st & 2nd generation immigrants of German descent, though not to the extent of segregating them into camps, but then an invasion of the US by Germany at that time was considered very remote.

Please stop defending xenophobic mass incarceration because you like the letter next to the name of the president that did it thank you

Please stop gaslighting my motives...

Thank You...

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I'm discussing their general policies with a focus on economics...

FYI historians do create rankings of Presidents, but IMOthe ranking of recent or living Presidents is highly subjective to revisions as the longer term results of their policies become clear.

Historians do it??? I guess I should think it’s a good exercise then.

It’s stupid when they do it too. 

Convenient that you’re focusing on economics when talking about FDR when clearly the person you’re talking to isn’t. Keeps you clear from talking about any of that nasty business of locking people up for no reason.

It's not that it was for no reason, but rather very poor reasons... By today's standards.  All through time judging historical events through the lens of the present is somewhat a fool's errand.  We view the world differently and therefore applying today's values to people in the past is rather unfair to them.  Slave holder founding fathers is the prime example of this.  They are still revered even though they were guilty of owning people like property. Likewise, FDR was much loved and did some amazing things for this country, doesn't mean we can't celebrate his accomplishments or mean that we have to shit on him now because of things we now view as mistakes. We weren't alive during all this, we don't know what it was like. It was a time of fear and fear leads to anger leading to hate and suffering.

sεяεηιτλ wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Historians do it??? I guess I should think it’s a good exercise then.

It’s stupid when they do it too. 

Convenient that you’re focusing on economics when talking about FDR when clearly the person you’re talking to isn’t. Keeps you clear from talking about any of that nasty business of locking people up for no reason.

It's not that it was for no reason, but rather very poor reasons... By today's standards.  All through time judging historical events through the lens of the present is somewhat a fool's errand.  We view the world differently and therefore applying today's values to people in the past is rather unfair to them.  Slave holder founding fathers is the prime example of this.  They are still revered even though they were guilty of owning people like property. Likewise, FDR was much loved and did some amazing things for this country, doesn't mean we can't celebrate his accomplishments or mean that we have to shit on him now because of things we now view as mistakes. We weren't alive during all this, we don't know what it was like. It was a time of fear and fear leads to anger leading to hate and suffering.

"Everyone focuses on the BAD things Hitler did, but it was a different time..."

There is no excuse for what FDR did. None. It was illegal, immoral, and a dark stain on this country's history. Anyone who thinks otherwise has shit for brains.

TravelinMan wrote:

sεяεηιτλ wrote:

It's not that it was for no reason, but rather very poor reasons... By today's standards.  All through time judging historical events through the lens of the present is somewhat a fool's errand.  We view the world differently and therefore applying today's values to people in the past is rather unfair to them.  Slave holder founding fathers is the prime example of this.  They are still revered even though they were guilty of owning people like property. Likewise, FDR was much loved and did some amazing things for this country, doesn't mean we can't celebrate his accomplishments or mean that we have to shit on him now because of things we now view as mistakes.  We weren't alive during all this, we don't know what it was like.  It was a time of fear and fear leads to anger leading to hate and suffering.

"Everyone focuses on the BAD things Hitler did, but it was a different time..."

There is no excuse for what FDR did.  None.  It was illegal, immoral, and a dark stain on this country's history.  Anyone who thinks otherwise has shit for brains.

I explained the reasons it was done.  I'm guessing that was TL;DR

Under TYDK I guessing you weren't aware the Great Britain put German immigrants who were in Britain at the time in camps and didn't allow them to have cameras or be within. 6 miles of the coasts.

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

"Everyone focuses on the BAD things Hitler did, but it was a different time..."

There is no excuse for what FDR did.  None.  It was illegal, immoral, and a dark stain on this country's history.  Anyone who thinks otherwise has shit for brains.

I explained the reasons it was done.  I'm guessing that was TL;DR

I think we all understood the stated reasons. That doesn't mean they were sufficient justification, they weren't at all.

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I explained the reasons it was done.  I'm guessing that was TL;DR

I think we all understood the stated reasons. That doesn't mean they were sufficient justification, they weren't at all.

The fear of an invasion of the Wast Coast where some part of 120k people, 40k of whom were Japanese citizens and  might be sympathizers and or spies when the US could not protect itself from that invasion seems like an adequate justification...

In 1942 the Japanese Navy had control of the Pacific and could do whatever they wanted. The US Navy had been crippled early in the war.

I guess maybe I see a potential invasion of the US as a very dire stuation...

"Might be sympathizers or spies"

Yeah, no. They were American citizens who deserved the full protection of the Constitution and were denied it at the very time that it mattered most. Nebulous concerns about their loyalty based solely on national origin is overt racism.

PennSpartan wrote:

Cameron wrote:

I think we all understood the stated reasons. That doesn't mean they were sufficient justification, they weren't at all.

Apparently at the time they felt otherwise.  

“In its 1944 decision Korematsu v. United States, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the removals under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution.”

Obviously.

There was also a time when the Supreme Court though segregation was a-okay. Doesn't mean we have to try to justify it in 2024.