2021 Big Ten Basketball F-

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 08:20

Pat our selves on the back MSU is cream of the crop but trigger warning if you can't handle criticism of MSU basketball just stop right here. This thread is not for you. There will be criticism below.

The whole Big Ten is a stubborn stuck in the past brand. The times have changed but the Big Ten hasn't. You have a conference that in 2021 features two dinosaurs Luke Garza and Hunter Dickinson as their stars. One is a senior and the other plays a style of ball that has gone extinct in the NBA. The Big Ten is like the Labrea Tarpits of basketball, a place where one can study well preserved fossils in our modern times.

You'd think that the Big Ten would do some self reflection about what is going wrong and try to pattern their selves after other programs that have adapted to the times and have had some success but don't bank on it. The past has shown this conference is drunk on tradition, high on their own supply and will always double down on arrogance.

The 2021 tournament featured a record high of 9 Big Ten teams ready to run the same sets they've run all season (that any coach can prep for), that has hot headed coaches that don't give their players the green light to shoot when they have an open shot/or lane and a bunch of meat heads in the paint ready to play gladiator ball in 2021. Freedom of movement has been a thing since 2015 but apparently the Big Ten never got the memo.

Dormant blue blood IU has been spinning the wheels in the dirt since they parted ways with Kelvin Sampson. He was the answer they were looking for when they parted ways with the bully in the red sweater and they were all to eager to part ways with him when he made phone calls to recruits? Are you fucking kidding me? Again and again we see the Big Ten 'leaders' think they are some kind of moral exemplars where they do things the 'right way'. Give me a break. When IU flamed out again in 2021 (a year when the committee was practically handing out invites to anyone in the Big Ten) they get their big money alum to send their coach packing and try to fix the problem by making a big time hire...After getting rejected by their top names on their wish list they end up with ---Google Search Mike Woodson. Who the fuck is that?

The Big Ten surrounds Chicago, a hot bed for modern talent. The town is loaded with Big Ten alum and yet time after time when a big name talent is lighting it up in Chicago the Big Ten comes up empty handed. Year after year Kentucky, Duke and Kansas can waltz right in and waltz right out with a commitment. But how can these kids pass up the morales and the physical style of ball that the Big Ten is offering? "If these kids don't want to be at_______(<--- insert any Big Ten School Name) and play for _______(<----insert any Big Ten Coach) then we didn't want them anyway!" It's a joke. Dominant SEC football teams build fortress walls around their regional recruiting hot spots but the Big Ten is content to let Chicago basketball talent just leak out across the country.

The Big Ten got man handled this tournament by teams that dribbled better, shot the ball better, played above the rim better and by coaches that can coach 21st century basketball better. It's time the Big Ten take a look in the mirror and realize that emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

by **kingstonlake** 2021-03-31, 08:21

by **NigelUno** 2021-03-31, 08:32

The Big Ten is down when MSU is down.

by **Motown Spartan** 2021-03-31, 08:35

At least we don’t have to deal with Mich, Ill, Iowa, OSU fans after one of them winning a title.

by **NigelUno** 2021-03-31, 08:37

Motown Spartan wrote:At least we don’t have to deal with Mich, Ill, Iowa, OSU fans after one of them winning a title.

Gonzaga would have killed Michigan. And will kill UCLA.

I think Illinois was the only team that had a real chance to win it all.

by **kingstonlake** 2021-03-31, 08:45

steveschneider wrote:Pat our selves on the back MSU is cream of the crop but trigger warning if you can't handle criticism of MSU basketball just stop right here. This thread is not for you. There will be criticism below.

Is Part 2 coming soon?

by **GRR Spartan** 2021-03-31, 08:46

You ain’t seen nuthn’ yet.

The last of the good old days was the 2019 tournament. Skipped a season and this year’s COVID tournament created unique seedlings.

2022 will be the first tournament with the transfer portal.

When the NBA changes their draft rules and let’s teams sign players out of HS to developmental contracts many American one and dones will never play a game in college.

by **kingstonlake** 2021-03-31, 08:49

About what I figured.

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 10:24

Motown Spartan wrote:At least we don’t have to deal with Mich, Ill, Iowa, OSU fans after one of them winning a title.

Iowa just extended Fran's contract so we don't have to worry about them for a while.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2021-03-31, 10:34

steveschneider wrote:Pat our selves on the back MSU is cream of the crop but trigger warning if you can't handle criticism of MSU basketball just stop right here. This thread is not for you. There will be criticism below.

The whole Big Ten is a stubborn stuck in the past brand. The times have changed but the Big Ten hasn't. You have a conference that in 2021 flouts two dinosaurs Luke Garza and Hunter Dickinson as their stars. One is a senior and the other plays a style of ball that has gone extinct in the NBA. The Big Ten is like the Labrea Tarpits of basketball, a place where one can study well preserved fossils in our modern times.

You'd think that the Big Ten would do some self reflection about what is going wrong and try to pattern their selves after other programs that have adapted to the times and have had some success but don't bank on it. The past has shown this conference is drunk on tradition, high on their own supply and will always double down on arrogance.

The 2021 tournament featured a record high of 9 Big Ten teams ready to run the same sets they've run all season (that any coach can prep for), that has hot headed coaches that don't give their players the green light to shoot when they have an open shot/or lane and a bunch of meat heads in the paint ready to play gladiator ball in 2021. Freedom of movement has been a thing since 2015 but apparently the Big Ten never got the memo.

Dormant blue blood IU has been spinning the wheels in the dirt since they parted ways with Kelvin Sampson. He was the answer they were looking for when they parted ways with the bully in the red sweater and they were all to eager to part ways with him when he made phone calls to recruits? Are you fucking kidding me? Again and again we see the Big Ten 'leaders' think they are some kind of moral exemplars where they do things the 'right way'. Give me a break. When IU flamed out again in 2021 (a year when the committee was practically handing out invites to anyone in the Big Ten) they get their big money alum to send their coach packing and try to fix the problem by making a big time hire...After getting rejected by their top names on their wish list they end up with ---Google Search Mike Woodson. Who the fuck is that?

The Big Ten surrounds Chicago, a hot bed for modern talent. The town is loaded with Big Ten alum and yet time after time when a big name talent is lighting it up in Chicago the Big Ten comes up empty handed. Year after year Kentucky, Duke and Kansas can waltz right in and waltz right out with a commitment. But how can these kids pass up the morales and the physical style of ball that the Big Ten is offering? "If these kids don't want to be at_______(<--- insert any Big Ten School Name) and play for _______(<----insert any Big Ten Coach) then we didn't want them anyway!" It's a joke. Dominant SEC football teams build fortress walls around their regional recruiting hot spots but the Big Ten is content to let Chicago basketball talent just leak out across the country.

The Big Ten got man handled this tournament by teams that dribbled better, shot the ball better, played above the rim better and by coaches that can coach 21st century basketball better. It's time the Big Ten take a look in the mirror and realize that emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

I couldn’t believe when max christie decided to go to Duke.

Honestly though in the last 4 years the top player in Illinois went to a big ten school 3 times and Duke 1 time. I don’t think you checked into this particular hot take before you just ran with it

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2021-03-31, 10:35

2014 was a particularly good year for exactly those three teams you mentioned in that city, so I think that’s where your brain was stuck. But that was 7 years ago now steve. I know, it doesn’t seem that long to me either.

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 10:46

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Pat our selves on the back MSU is cream of the crop but trigger warning if you can't handle criticism of MSU basketball just stop right here. This thread is not for you. There will be criticism below.

The whole Big Ten is a stubborn stuck in the past brand. The times have changed but the Big Ten hasn't. You have a conference that in 2021 flouts two dinosaurs Luke Garza and Hunter Dickinson as their stars. One is a senior and the other plays a style of ball that has gone extinct in the NBA. The Big Ten is like the Labrea Tarpits of basketball, a place where one can study well preserved fossils in our modern times.

You'd think that the Big Ten would do some self reflection about what is going wrong and try to pattern their selves after other programs that have adapted to the times and have had some success but don't bank on it. The past has shown this conference is drunk on tradition, high on their own supply and will always double down on arrogance.

The 2021 tournament featured a record high of 9 Big Ten teams ready to run the same sets they've run all season (that any coach can prep for), that has hot headed coaches that don't give their players the green light to shoot when they have an open shot/or lane and a bunch of meat heads in the paint ready to play gladiator ball in 2021. Freedom of movement has been a thing since 2015 but apparently the Big Ten never got the memo.

Dormant blue blood IU has been spinning the wheels in the dirt since they parted ways with Kelvin Sampson. He was the answer they were looking for when they parted ways with the bully in the red sweater and they were all to eager to part ways with him when he made phone calls to recruits? Are you fucking kidding me? Again and again we see the Big Ten 'leaders' think they are some kind of moral exemplars where they do things the 'right way'. Give me a break. When IU flamed out again in 2021 (a year when the committee was practically handing out invites to anyone in the Big Ten) they get their big money alum to send their coach packing and try to fix the problem by making a big time hire...After getting rejected by their top names on their wish list they end up with ---Google Search Mike Woodson. Who the fuck is that?

The Big Ten surrounds Chicago, a hot bed for modern talent. The town is loaded with Big Ten alum and yet time after time when a big name talent is lighting it up in Chicago the Big Ten comes up empty handed. Year after year Kentucky, Duke and Kansas can waltz right in and waltz right out with a commitment. But how can these kids pass up the morales and the physical style of ball that the Big Ten is offering? "If these kids don't want to be at_______(<--- insert any Big Ten School Name) and play for _______(<----insert any Big Ten Coach) then we didn't want them anyway!" It's a joke. Dominant SEC football teams build fortress walls around their regional recruiting hot spots but the Big Ten is content to let Chicago basketball talent just leak out across the country.

The Big Ten got man handled this tournament by teams that dribbled better, shot the ball better, played above the rim better and by coaches that can coach 21st century basketball better. It's time the Big Ten take a look in the mirror and realize that emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

I couldn’t believe when max christie decided to go to Duke.

Honestly though in the last 4 years the top player in Illinois went to a big ten school 3 times and Duke 1 time. I don’t think you checked into this particular hot take before you just ran with it

Fair enough. I had Okafur, Alexander, Parker and Davis in mind when I wrote that. Minnesota can't retain top talent either.

by **GRR Spartan** 2021-03-31, 11:20

Minnesota and Penn State have major issue when it comes to getting its top instate players to stay at home. Over the last 15 - 20 years there are good players who grow up playing MN HS ball who go out of state. Some stay in conference but others have played at UConn to Oregon.

Penn State struggles to compete with Pitt and other D1 schools like Pitt and multiple schools in the Philadelphia area. State College is in the middle of nowhere comparatively.

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 11:29

GRR Spartan wrote:Minnesota and Penn State have major issue when it comes to getting its top instate players to stay at home. Over the last 15 - 20 years there are good players who grow up playing MN HS ball who go out of state. Some stay in conference but others have played at UConn to Oregon.

Penn State struggles to compete with Pitt and other D1 schools like Pitt and multiple schools in the Philadelphia area. State College is in the middle of nowhere comparatively.

Pitt has Jeff Capel. Did Penn State even try to go for him?

by **MiamiSpartan** 2021-03-31, 11:59

Just goes to show that MSU IS the B1G conference when it comes to basketball.

But at the same time, there is an asterisk next to every sports season this past 9 months since they restarted. And probably for the next 6-12 months or more, as there will be a knock on effect. Not to say that they're illegitimate, but just that the landscape has been upended (from workouts to practices to games to mid-season pauses and so on) that it is hard to make much in the way of judgements relative to trends or the long term based on anything in the last 9 months since sports restarted.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 12:18

Sportstalk steve demands that the B1G modernize! 2021 Big Ten Basketball F- 1550444538

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 12:39

Cameron wrote:Sportstalk steve demands that the B1G modernize!

This era of Big Ten baskeball reminds me of when the halcyon days of B1G football was starting to crumble and there was a noticeable visual difference between the on field performance of SEC teams and Big Ten Football teams.

I'm seeing Big Ten teams running sets non stop, players not having green lights to shoot until the shot clock winds down and teams showing up trying to win with antiquated big guys in the paint. They are making it more difficult for their top talent to score. It's like they take pride playing with one hand tied behind their back. When I watch Houston, UCLA or any of the other teams that are finishing towards the top they are shooting floaters, popping threes well beyond the arc wihtout passing the ball once (OMG!) and when a star like Juzang is heating up they stick with the hot hand.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 12:44

I just can't shake the feeling that this impassioned take is informed by about 2 hours of actual game watching by an absolute fucking amateur...

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 12:47

Cameron wrote:I just can't shake the feeling that this impassioned take is informed by about 2 hours of actual game watching by an absolute fucking amateur...

Heh, and here I thought we were going to have an adult conversation. Let me know when you simmer down a bit.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 12:56

You want adult conversation? Fine.

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:Sportstalk steve demands that the B1G modernize!

This era of Big Ten baskeball reminds me of when the halcyon days of B1G football was starting to crumble and there was a noticeable visual difference between the on field performance of SEC teams and Big Ten Football teams.

I'm seeing Big Ten teams running sets non stop, players not having green lights to shoot until the shot clock winds down and teams showing up trying to win with antiquated big guys in the paint. They are making it more difficult for their top talent to score. It's like they take pride playing with one hand tied behind their back. When I watch Houston, UCLA or any of the other teams that are finishing towards the top they are shooting floaters, popping threes well beyond the arc wihtout passing the ball once (OMG!) and when a star like Juzang is heating up they stick with the hot hand.

Citation needed. What is your supporting evidence for the claims that:

B1G teams run more sets than teams from other conferences?
B1G players don't have green lights when players from other conferences do (specific examples is what I'm looking for)?
B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?
B1G teams shoot fewer no-pass 3s?
No-pass 3s are good, efficient shots that teams should want to be taking more of?
B1G teams go away from their hot hand?

Whatcha got for me, sportstalk steve?

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 12:59

Cameron wrote:You want adult conversation? Fine.
steveschneider wrote:

This era of Big Ten baskeball reminds me of when the halcyon days of B1G football was starting to crumble and there was a noticeable visual difference between the on field performance of SEC teams and Big Ten Football teams.

I'm seeing Big Ten teams running sets non stop, players not having green lights to shoot until the shot clock winds down and teams showing up trying to win with antiquated big guys in the paint. They are making it more difficult for their top talent to score. It's like they take pride playing with one hand tied behind their back. When I watch Houston, UCLA or any of the other teams that are finishing towards the top they are shooting floaters, popping threes well beyond the arc wihtout passing the ball once (OMG!) and when a star like Juzang is heating up they stick with the hot hand.
Citation needed. What is your supporting evidence for the claims that:

B1G teams run more sets than teams from other conferences?
B1G players don't have green lights when players from other conferences do (specific examples is what I'm looking for)?
B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?
B1G teams shoot fewer no-pass 3s?
No-pass 3s are good, efficient shots that teams should want to be taking more of?
B1G teams go away from their hot hand?

Whatcha got for me, sportstalk steve?

Heh and you accuse me of being and amateur that has watched a couple of hours of games.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 13:02

So nothing, then?

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 13:09

B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

I'll answer one of your questions but you are going to have to do your own homework on the rest and catch up.

B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

Michigan last night leading scorer and best tool (and a literal tool) was a guy playing in the paint and will have no place or future in the league. Too easy.

by **DWags** 2021-03-31, 13:34

steveschneider wrote:
B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

I'll answer one of your questions but you are going to have to do your own homework on the rest and catch up.

B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

Michigan last night leading scorer and best tool (and a literal tool) was a guy playing in the paint and will have no place or future in the league. Too easy.

If you’re talking about Dickenson, he don’t need the league. He don’t need that minuscule money. He only needs two things. A pair of aviator shades, and some more cowbell

by **kingstonlake** 2021-03-31, 13:35

My memory isn't very good, but at least locally memory tells me UM and MSU have done well against super athletic long lean floor stretching undisciplined chuckers like FSU, LSU, Auburn, etc.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 13:52

steveschneider wrote:
B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

I'll answer one of your questions but you are going to have to do your own homework on the rest and catch up.

B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

Michigan last night leading scorer and best tool (and a literal tool) was a guy playing in the paint and will have no place or future in the league. Too easy.

You point to one team in one game having a leading scorer that's a big guy. There are several things to note here. First, I asked about B1G teamS. Second, Michigan actually shot better from 3 than UCLA did in that game. Third, Wagner had just as many attempts as Dickinson, he just missed all four of his 3 point attempts.

And is having a future in the league now the be-all, end-all for college hoops? I thought the point was to win college basketball games.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2021-03-31, 14:23

Cameron wrote:I just can't shake the feeling that this impassioned take is informed by about 2 hours of actual game watching by an absolute fucking amateur...

2021 Big Ten Basketball F- Fad2ea2d-d61f-4338-89c4-ae169013d54f_text

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 14:32

DWags wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I'll answer one of your questions but you are going to have to do your own homework on the rest and catch up.

B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

Michigan last night leading scorer and best tool (and a literal tool) was a guy playing in the paint and will have no place or future in the league. Too easy.

If you’re talking about Dickenson, he don’t need the league. He don’t need that minuscule money. He only needs two things. A pair of aviator shades, and some more cowbell

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 14:33

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I'll answer one of your questions but you are going to have to do your own homework on the rest and catch up.

B1G teams are more paint oriented than teams from other conferences?

Michigan last night leading scorer and best tool (and a literal tool) was a guy playing in the paint and will have no place or future in the league. Too easy.
You point to one team in one game having a leading scorer that's a big guy. There are several things to note here. First, I asked about B1G teamS. Second, Michigan actually shot better from 3 than UCLA did in that game. Third, Wagner had just as many attempts as Dickinson, he just missed all four of his 3 point attempts.

And is having a future in the league now the be-all, end-all for college hoops? I thought the point was to win college basketball games.

Luke Garza, Cockburn, Dickinson....You are being lazy you know this. I saw you whining about Cockburn in a game thread a month or so ago.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 14:36

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:
You point to one team in one game having a leading scorer that's a big guy. There are several things to note here. First, I asked about B1G teamS. Second, Michigan actually shot better from 3 than UCLA did in that game. Third, Wagner had just as many attempts as Dickinson, he just missed all four of his 3 point attempts.

And is having a future in the league now the be-all, end-all for college hoops? I thought the point was to win college basketball games.

Luke Garza, Cockburn, Dickinson....You are being lazy you know this. I saw you whinging about Cockburn in a game thread a month or so ago.

You're acting like no teams outside the B1G have big guys who score. Did you watch USC from your beloved Pac 12 play? They run a lot of offense through the Mobley brothers. Is that fine because one or both of the Mobleys might play in the NBA?

One of us is being lazy, and it's not me.

by **Turtleneck** 2021-03-31, 14:38

Cameron wrote:Sportstalk steve demands that the B1G modernize!

And Steve, who was talking up his data analysis skills in another thread, has a sample size of one year.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 14:39

Have you guys seen Gonzaga play? They let Timme touch the ball so much. So paint oriented, I just can't see them having success...

by **NigelUno** 2021-03-31, 14:56

Cameron wrote:Have you guys seen Gonzaga play? They let Timme touch the ball so much. So paint oriented, I just can't see them having success...

They have 2 Top 10 picks and maybe another 1st rounder (not including Timme).

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 15:03

NigelUno wrote:
Cameron wrote:Have you guys seen Gonzaga play? They let Timme touch the ball so much. So paint oriented, I just can't see them having success...

They have 2 Top 10 picks and maybe another 1st rounder (not including Timme).

They also shoot lights out from the three. One through five is solid.

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 15:13

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 15:22

Why did you just quote yourself twice? Are you drunk, steve? That's my thing.

You think you're on to something because you're able to name 2 or 3 starting centers for B1G teams. You still have not established that B1G teams are more reliant on big men on average than are teams from other conferences, much less that that is to their detriment. Use your data analyst skills (just made myself laugh) and analyze some data. Post touches per game per team, points per post touch vs points per 3pt attempt (maybe giving Garza the ball is Iowa's best and most efficient scoring option), percentage of total points scored in the paint vs from 3, etc. Because I know you've watched perhaps dozens of hours of NCAA basketball per year for decades now, but the B1G coaches have dedicated their lives to this shit and are paid handsomely for having done so, so their eye test and instincts carry rather a bit more weight than yours, absent some compelling statistical evidence.

by **NigelUno** 2021-03-31, 15:23

Cameron wrote:Why did you just quote yourself twice? Are you drunk, steve? That's my thing.

You think you're on to something because you're able to name 2 or 3 starting centers for B1G teams. You still have not established that B1G teams are more reliant on big men on average than are teams from other conferences, much less that that is to their detriment. Use your data analyst skills (just made myself laugh) and analyze some data. Post touches per game per team, points per post touch vs points per 3pt attempt (maybe giving Garza the ball is Iowa's best and most efficient scoring option), percentage of total points scored in the paint vs from 3, etc. Because I know you've watched perhaps dozens of hours of NCAA basketball per year for decades now, but the B1G coaches have dedicated their lives to this shit and are paid handsomely for having done so, so their eye test and instincts carry rather a bit more weight than yours, absent some compelling statistical evidence.

Long time listener. Long time caller.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 15:26

NigelUno wrote:
Cameron wrote:Why did you just quote yourself twice? Are you drunk, steve? That's my thing.

You think you're on to something because you're able to name 2 or 3 starting centers for B1G teams. You still have not established that B1G teams are more reliant on big men on average than are teams from other conferences, much less that that is to their detriment. Use your data analyst skills (just made myself laugh) and analyze some data. Post touches per game per team, points per post touch vs points per 3pt attempt (maybe giving Garza the ball is Iowa's best and most efficient scoring option), percentage of total points scored in the paint vs from 3, etc. Because I know you've watched perhaps dozens of hours of NCAA basketball per year for decades now, but the B1G coaches have dedicated their lives to this shit and are paid handsomely for having done so, so their eye test and instincts carry rather a bit more weight than yours, absent some compelling statistical evidence.

Long time listener. Long time ~~caller~~ troll-feeder.

2021 Big Ten Basketball F- 93a79f176db757546c47ee31805deb43

by **steveschneider** 2021-03-31, 15:27

Have you guys seen Gonzaga play? They let Timme touch the ball so much. So paint oriented, I just can't see them having success...

The whole Big Ten is a stubborn stuck in the past brand. The times have changed but the Big Ten hasn't. You have a conference that in 2021 flouts two dinosaurs Luke Garza and Hunter Dickinson as their stars. One is a senior and the other plays a style of ball that has gone extinct in the NBA. The Big Ten is like the Labrea Tarpits of basketball, a place where one can study well preserved fossils in our modern times

Fixed it.

by **Cameron** 2021-03-31, 15:28

steveschneider wrote:
Have you guys seen Gonzaga play? They let Timme touch the ball so much. So paint oriented, I just can't see them having success...

The whole Big Ten is a stubborn stuck in the past brand. The times have changed but the Big Ten hasn't. You have a conference that in 2021 flouts two dinosaurs Luke Garza and Hunter Dickinson as their stars. One is a senior and the other plays a style of ball that has gone extinct in the NBA. The Big Ten is like the Labrea Tarpits of basketball, a place where one can study well preserved fossils in our modern times

Fixed it.

Did you, though? Sure, you're not quoting yourself twice anymore. But now that I see what you were going for, I'm not sure this "fixed" version is any better.

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