Re: Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2017-01-16, 01:36

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I am not declaring him a failure actually. I really hope he's about more than what he has shown thus far. I really hope his use of Twitter for example is some kind of distraction ploy. I really hope he's not as thin skinned as he appears.

I do get that people wanted something different. I do get the drain the swamp. Hell I agree with it. My contention (pre election) was that I'm all for getting away from mainstream politics, but he was not in any way (IMO) savvy or prepared enough to lead that movement. I said before I could have gotten behind Rand Paul on that front, despite the fact that I disagree personally with a lot of his stances. I think I probably still would have taken that leap. Polished dude with some experience, who wants to shake shit up. Shit needs to be shaken.

My thing is Trump is fucking lunatic. Floyd gets it. Again I hope it's a ploy. I do wonder why people don't see that. Do they think, as I hoped above, that it's all a ploy? Do they back it?

So question for LWS. Loose. Death Roe.

Do you think Trump comes across as a sane person on Twitter? Do you back his use of Twitter? If it were your Dad tweeting the things that he does, would you find that embarrassing?

Follow up. Do you think the Twitter thing is a ploy/distraction?

My point isn't about Twitter, but I guess it's a microcosm.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I am not declaring him a failure actually. I really hope he's about more than what he has shown thus far. I really hope his use of Twitter for example is some kind of distraction ploy. I really hope he's not as thin skinned as he appears.

I do get that people wanted something different. I do get the drain the swamp. Hell I agree with it. My contention (pre election) was that I'm all for getting away from mainstream politics, but he was not in any way (IMO) savvy or prepared enough to lead that movement. I said before I could have gotten behind Rand Paul on that front, despite the fact that I disagree personally with a lot of his stances. I think I probably still would have taken that leap. Polished dude with some experience, who wants to shake shit up. Shit needs to be shaken.

My thing is Trump is fucking lunatic. Floyd gets it. Again I hope it's a ploy. I do wonder why people don't see that. Do they think, as I hoped above, that it's all a ploy? Do they back it?

So question for LWS. Loose. Death Roe.

Do you think Trump comes across as a sane person on Twitter? Do you back his use of Twitter? If it were your Dad tweeting the things that he does, would you find that embarrassing?

Follow up. Do you think the Twitter thing is a ploy/distraction?

My point isn't about Twitter, but I guess it's a microcosm.

I don't. I still come back to, what is so wrong with your lives that you're willing to risk everything you have (being at the pinnacle of human civilization) to gain what exactly? A discount at chilis? Is whatever it is really worth the downside risk to putting a reality star as president? My opinion has always been that things are pretty fine, so let's not do some stupid shit in the name of improving things that are relatively fine.

So that's my question to trump voters. What is it that you hope will be better 4 years from now that justifies putting a potentially insane lunatic in office? What is it that you are hoping to gain and what are you willing to lose?

by Guest 2017-01-16, 10:14

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:So question for LWS. Loose. Death Roe.

Do you think Trump comes across as a sane person on Twitter? Do you back his use of Twitter? If it were your Dad tweeting the things that he does, would you find that embarrassing?

Follow up. Do you think the Twitter thing is a ploy/distraction?

My point isn't about Twitter, but I guess it's a microcosm.

I think he should have stayed off Twitter. That said I think some of the stuff is posted to distract from other issues.

My guess is that once sworn in the Twitter usage stops or is much more moderated. We'll see.

by Guest 2017-01-16, 10:16

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I don't. I still come back to, what is so wrong with your lives that you're willing to risk everything you have (being at the pinnacle of human civilization) to gain what exactly? A discount at chilis? Is whatever it is really worth the downside risk to putting a reality star as president? My opinion has always been that things are pretty fine, so let's not do some stupid shit in the name of improving things that are relatively fine.

So that's my question to trump voters. What is it that you hope will be better 4 years from now that justifies putting a potentially insane lunatic in office? What is it that you are hoping to gain and what are you willing to lose?

Don't take this as a knock on you because it's not. YOU may think things are "pretty fine", they don't. So I guess based on that they were willing to take the risk. Also I don't think the majority of people see him as even close to an insane lunatic.

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-16, 12:17

I think it's the left that has gone off the deep end and the American public agrees. Democrats have lost immense power under Obama and are at historic lows.

I think the American public has become fed up with politicians like he that just bullshit and lie, constantly, while not seeing any improvements in their standard of living bing.

I mean, look at how mentally unhinged democrats have become. Zero republicans boycotted Obamas inauguration despite his toxic rhetoric. There are what, like 30 Dems in Congress now not attending Trumps due to personal butthurt.

Just look at how the left just attacks with hatred people on the right. You literally just had a dem congressmen say trump is illegitimate and then he went in record admitting he's a conspiracy guy. And the media says nothing and fellow Dems cheered him on.

The left is our biggest threat to democracy we have seen in a really really long time in this country. Going to extreme lengths to undermine our democratic institutions.

There's a reason Dems historic lows for elected offices and it will only get worse. They've become the anti American, radical political party to the average voter.

I don't know how Dems will become the working mans party again. They are a long ways off.

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-16, 12:23

LooseGoose wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I don't. I still come back to, what is so wrong with your lives that you're willing to risk everything you have (being at the pinnacle of human civilization) to gain what exactly? A discount at chilis? Is whatever it is really worth the downside risk to putting a reality star as president? My opinion has always been that things are pretty fine, so let's not do some stupid shit in the name of improving things that are relatively fine.

So that's my question to trump voters. What is it that you hope will be better 4 years from now that justifies putting a potentially insane lunatic in office? What is it that you are hoping to gain and what are you willing to lose?

Don't take this as a knock on you because it's not. YOU may think things are "pretty fine", they don't. So I guess based on that they were willing to take the risk. Also I don't think the majority of people see him as even close to an insane lunatic.

A lot of people think Obama is an insane lunatic.

That's kind of why he non stopped campaigned for Hilary and still lost embarrassingly. 7 out of 10 voters said they wanted a new direction for our country. Why? It's the economy, stupid.

Obama was the worst post recession POTUS since WWII and ranks as 4th worse for GDP growth, the biggest economic indicator along with wage growth.

Hilary supporters still can't say what her economic message was.

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-16, 12:28

GRR Spartan wrote:The evening of the day President Obama was sworn in in 2009 members of the GOP leadership were already meeting puttng together plans to make sure he was a one term President.

What we are seeing now is some of the same people want to eliminate everything they objected to 8 years ago. This stuff has been brewing for years. Trump's election along with the GOP majority control of legislative branch has put their 2009 agenda in the express lane.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-republicans-plan-for-the-new-president/

Yeah as soon as Obama took office he told Republicans to take a back seat and that 'he won.'

He went on to dismiss congress constantly while passing legislation like the aca in the most partisan way possible. When you do that, you galvanize the other side. Keep your friends close and enemy closer is something Barry didn't understand.

And the result of his partisanship is his weak legacy that can easily be undone. Obama gambled his side would win after he left. He bet big and lost big.

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-16, 12:33

DWags wrote:The pubs main goal in 2008 was to impede Obama. That was it. Fuck them. The guy carrying their flag was the birther umber one trying to deligitimize his presidency. Fuck that piece of shit. The dems are doing some of the same bullshit. Fuck them.

Oh and all you guys defending one side, you're part of the problem. We will never rise above this. Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagan are shaking their heads at how pathetic we are.

Fuck us.

Obama had the House and Senate in 2008. He's to blame for his own failures.

He's a pathetic, partisan leader. And his legacy--whatever the fuck it is, will be gone soon. Obama bet big on Hilary and lost.

Maybe I missed it but show me elected Rs in Confress that openly said Obama isn't legitimate.

You keep trying to equate both sides. That's not true. Republicans don't act like this. Democrats do.

by Guest 2017-01-16, 12:36

A "mad as hell" economic post from Zero Hedge......

Mad As Hell

Fair warning, my family just received a 61.5% increase in our healthcare insurance premium of 2017, on top of last year’s 24.8% increase, so I am quite annoyed at the moment. For my non-US readers, perhaps what follows will interest you as a means of understanding how and why Donald Trump came to be elected President. I am going to be channeling some of my inner crank today.

If you want to understand why Trump won the recent US presidential election, you can't overlook the economic data. If you do, his victory may look mighty confusing, alarming even. But once you understand the degree to which the average US family and the entire Gen-X and Millennial generations are being completely hosed economically, everything starts to take shape.

As most struggling Americans can tell you, real household income has gone nowhere for more than 20 years:

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-16, 12:41

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Thanks for the honest replies.

I know some doubt my claims because I've clearly shown that I'm not digging where the new guy is going, but I really try to look at things without party involvement. It is just literally staggering to me that people can overlook the way this guy is acting and the things he's doing before he even takes office because they are so pissed off at Obama. And I guess I wondered why.

That is kinda what this whole thing boils down to as I observe it. Dramatic pause. It's all people digging in along party lines, and more directly, their personal ballot. As DT said during his campaign, (paraphrasing) he could literally do whatever he wanted, and his supporters would still vote for him. Same thing now. He could probably go out killing hobos tomorrow and every single person that voted for him would still have his back and decry Obama, blame Hillary, etc.

Going to be funny (at first) and then annoying how every single blunder this guy makes (and I personally think there are going to be a lot of very large ones, given the evidence) will be skewered and panicked over by a lot of folks (legitimate or not), and then completely dismissed (legitimate or not) by the other folks. I know it's always that way to a degree but this is gonna go to hyper level because this guy....is very different than any other politicians we have ever dealt with.

It really isn't about Obama. It's about the whole ducking elite political class in our country that runs up our debt, let's their friends get rich in corporate America with shit trade deals, and start bullshit foreign wars.

HRC epitomizes everything the American people didn't want. Trump related to working Americans better than she did. He understood and voiced their frustrations with the establishment on both sides that fuck over the American people.

HRC ran a campaign for someone who wants to be Secretary General of the UN. Trump ran a campaign to represent the American people.

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-16, 12:43

And Obama--this guy is delusional. Said that losing 1000 seats at the federal and state level under him was just bad luck.

All Obama does is surround himself with yes men. At least Trump encourages dissent and isn't a slave to a certain ideology.

by **Cameron** 2017-01-16, 13:40

The_Dude wrote:
WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Thanks for the honest replies.

I know some doubt my claims because I've clearly shown that I'm not digging where the new guy is going, but I really try to look at things without party involvement. It is just literally staggering to me that people can overlook the way this guy is acting and the things he's doing before he even takes office because they are so pissed off at Obama. And I guess I wondered why.

That is kinda what this whole thing boils down to as I observe it. Dramatic pause. It's all people digging in along party lines, and more directly, their personal ballot. As DT said during his campaign, (paraphrasing) he could literally do whatever he wanted, and his supporters would still vote for him. Same thing now. He could probably go out killing hobos tomorrow and every single person that voted for him would still have his back and decry Obama, blame Hillary, etc.

Going to be funny (at first) and then annoying how every single blunder this guy makes (and I personally think there are going to be a lot of very large ones, given the evidence) will be skewered and panicked over by a lot of folks (legitimate or not), and then completely dismissed (legitimate or not) by the other folks. I know it's always that way to a degree but this is gonna go to hyper level because this guy....is very different than any other politicians we have ever dealt with.

It really isn't about Obama. It's about the whole ducking elite political class in our country that runs up our debt, let's their friends get rich in corporate America with shit trade deals, and start bullshit foreign wars.

HRC epitomizes everything the American people didn't want. Trump related to working Americans better than she did. He understood and voiced their frustrations with the establishment on both sides that fuck over the American people.

HRC ran a campaign for someone who wants to be Secretary General of the UN. Trump ran a campaign to represent the American people.

Really? Coulda fooled me...

The_Dude wrote:I think it's the left that has gone off the deep end and the American public agrees. Democrats have lost immense power under Obama and are at historic lows.

I think the American public has become fed up with politicians like he that just bullshit and lie, constantly, while not seeing any improvements in their standard of living bing.

I mean, look at how mentally unhinged democrats have become. Zero republicans boycotted Obamas inauguration despite his toxic rhetoric. There are what, like 30 Dems in Congress now not attending Trumps due to personal butthurt.

Just look at how the left just attacks with hatred people on the right. You literally just had a dem congressmen say trump is illegitimate and then he went in record admitting he's a conspiracy guy. And the media says nothing and fellow Dems cheered him on.

The left is our biggest threat to democracy we have seen in a really really long time in this country. Going to extreme lengths to undermine our democratic institutions.

There's a reason Dems historic lows for elected offices and it will only get worse. They've become the anti American, radical political party to the average voter.

I don't know how Dems will become the working mans party again. They are a long ways off.

The_Dude wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Don't take this as a knock on you because it's not. YOU may think things are "pretty fine", they don't. So I guess based on that they were willing to take the risk. Also I don't think the majority of people see him as even close to an insane lunatic.

A lot of people think Obama is an insane lunatic.

That's kind of why he non stopped campaigned for Hilary and still lost embarrassingly. 7 out of 10 voters said they wanted a new direction for our country. Why? It's the economy, stupid.

Obama was the worst post recession POTUS since WWII and ranks as 4th worse for GDP growth, the biggest economic indicator along with wage growth.

Hilary supporters still can't say what her economic message was.

The_Dude wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:The evening of the day President Obama was sworn in in 2009 members of the GOP leadership were already meeting puttng together plans to make sure he was a one term President.

What we are seeing now is some of the same people want to eliminate everything they objected to 8 years ago. This stuff has been brewing for years. Trump's election along with the GOP majority control of legislative branch has put their 2009 agenda in the express lane.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-republicans-plan-for-the-new-president/

Yeah as soon as Obama took office he told Republicans to take a back seat and that 'he won.'

He went on to dismiss congress constantly while passing legislation like the aca in the most partisan way possible. When you do that, you galvanize the other side. Keep your friends close and enemy closer is something Barry didn't understand.

And the result of his partisanship is his weak legacy that can easily be undone. Obama gambled his side would win after he left. He bet big and lost big.

The_Dude wrote:
DWags wrote:The pubs main goal in 2008 was to impede Obama. That was it. Fuck them. The guy carrying their flag was the birther umber one trying to deligitimize his presidency. Fuck that piece of shit. The dems are doing some of the same bullshit. Fuck them.

Oh and all you guys defending one side, you're part of the problem. We will never rise above this. Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagan are shaking their heads at how pathetic we are.

Fuck us.

Obama had the House and Senate in 2008. He's to blame for his own failures.

He's a pathetic, partisan leader. And his legacy--whatever the fuck it is, will be gone soon. Obama bet big on Hilary and lost.

Maybe I missed it but show me elected Rs in Confress that openly said Obama isn't legitimate.

You keep trying to equate both sides. That's not true. Republicans don't act like this. Democrats do.

The_Dude wrote:And Obama--this guy is delusional. Said that losing 1000 seats at the federal and state level under him was just bad luck.

All Obama does is surround himself with yes men. At least Trump encourages dissent and isn't a slave to a certain ideology.

Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 2599972566

by TheReal_LWS 2017-01-16, 18:10

LooseGoose wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I don't. I still come back to, what is so wrong with your lives that you're willing to risk everything you have (being at the pinnacle of human civilization) to gain what exactly? A discount at chilis? Is whatever it is really worth the downside risk to putting a reality star as president? My opinion has always been that things are pretty fine, so let's not do some stupid shit in the name of improving things that are relatively fine.

So that's my question to trump voters. What is it that you hope will be better 4 years from now that justifies putting a potentially insane lunatic in office? What is it that you are hoping to gain and what are you willing to lose?

Don't take this as a knock on you because it's not. YOU may think things are "pretty fine", they don't. So I guess based on that they were willing to take the risk. Also I don't think the majority of people see him as even close to an insane lunatic.

Travis gonna Trav.

by **Cameron** 2017-01-16, 20:04

The_Dude wrote:And Obama--this guy is delusional. Said that losing 1000 seats at the federal and state level under him was just bad luck.

All Obama does is surround himself with yes men. At least Trump encourages dissent and isn't a slave to a certain ideology.

What are you basing that on?

by **WhiteBoyHatcher** 2017-01-16, 21:44

Why did you have to quote him Cam. Thanks a lot Obama.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-01-16, 23:00

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

It is more complex than that, Travis. While there has always been a partisan divide, it seems the current divide is accompanied by a high degree of social distrust. Overall, its seems to more personal and more emotional than it has in the recent past.

You know, I don't think it's really that much more complex than what I said. The one thing that gets ignored in all of these conversations is just how much technological advances have changed the game. Like having unlimited options with which to become informed in the news instead of just one relatively impartial one.

So, let's say my name is, oh I don't know.... Les.... and I'm from the Midwest. I don't like abortion, cause I'm a good Christian soldier. So I'm a republican cause my family or pastor or whoever said that that gives me a better chance of going to heaven.

I'm going to watch the news so I can vote later this month for the absolute best candidate! So I try watching CNN. But it turns out that they presented things that challenge my opinion. I don't like that. But my buddy, Roose, told me about this station Fox News. They tell me all the things I like to hear with none of the downside! Now I'm informed! And hey, they mentioned this site, breetbarf or something. Maybe that will help me get more informed. Oh man... now that I do that, obama is an awful piece of shit that I literally hate! He's the worst! I'm SO informed!!!

This is where we get into "he's the other side so I hate him and that's all there is to it." Because the sources you're reading are only allowing for that. Of course you hate obama. That's all you've heard for 2-8 years.

It works the same for the other side, and it's not that MSNBC is more correct.... but I think that conservatives in this country are more easily persuaded by memes and simple talking points. Not to say that some liberals aren't... but I think that polls that point to uneducated people leading the charge for a guy like trump shouldn't be ignored. There's a reason they were whipped into a frenzy, and it's not a complicated one (honestly, smarmy asshole comment, but it's not because it's a tough concept to understand. These are people with a high school degree were talking about.)

I was not referring to Obama. I was referring to the overall climate of distrust and partisanship. Technology certainly plays a role in fueling the divide. However, I would argue technology is not an actual cause, or at the very least is one among multiple causes.

As for Obama, I am not going to put the current divide in his lap. From my perspective, Obama did not divide us so much as we choose to be divided. I believe he tried to appeal to all Americans. Some Republicans cite the ACA or aggressive use of executive orders as the source of their contempt for Obama, but I am somewhat suspicious when they have few, if any criticisms at all, of past Republican presidents. For example, are they equally upset with Reagan over his Executive Order 1233 (1981), which greatly expanded the powers of American intelligence agencies and was later used as the foundation for the post-9/11 expansion of domestic surveillance? Are they equally upset that Reagan normalized the use of presidential signing statements, issuing over 200 in his eight years in office? To me any partisan person familiar with modern presidential history should be careful throwing around the "abuses of executive power" card as the source of their contempt.

I think it is something deeper.

by **WhiteBoyHatcher** 2017-01-16, 23:12

I think it's more than that personally. There is some kind of a movement out there, not just from the extremists, but from a lot of people who think the current political state caters too much towards non white people. I'm not calling that movement racist, but I think there's a definite movement out there among white people who are so fucking sick and tired of the political correctness of trying to make sure that minority groups aren't excluded from shit that they're just done. They're like fuck it, what about me? Honestly I think that is a huge part of it. It's people that would not and do not consider themselves racist but are absolutely done with trying to put sensitivities above their own priorities.

I don't agree with this mindset personally, but I kind of get it. I think it's really tough for a straight white guy to put himself in the shoes of others and I don't think there's an easy answer.

I still can't understand how the answer is backing a thin-skinned reality TV star who doesn't even have a political compass let alone common sense in a world equipped with nuclear arms, political snakes, spies, etc.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-01-16, 23:42

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I think it's more than that personally. There is some kind of a movement out there, not just from the extremists, but from a lot of people who think the current political state caters too much towards non white people. I'm not calling that movement racist, but I think there's a definite movement out there among white people who are so fucking sick and tired of the political correctness of trying to make sure that minority groups aren't excluded from shit that they're just done. They're like fuck it, what about me? Honestly I think that is a huge part of it. It's people that would not and do not consider themselves racist but are absolutely done with trying to put sensitivities above their own priorities.

I don't agree with this mindset personally, but I kind of get it. I think it's really tough for a straight white guy to put himself in the shoes of others and I don't think there's an easy answer.

I still can't understand how the answer is backing a thin-skinned reality TV star who doesn't even have a political compass let alone common sense in a world equipped with nuclear arms, political snakes, spies, etc.

Some of this reflects the disruptive forces of globalization. Notice that Trump is part of a global phenomenon. Populist messages have found receptive audiences in the West and elsewhere. What happened in November did not happen in isolation of the rest of the world. Brexit actually foreshadowed Trump's victory. There has always been a backlash to globalization in the lesser developed parts of the world. We did not notice in the West because we were too busy pushing globalization on the rest of the world. But when we began to feel the disruptive forces of globalization, well we have certainly had quite the reaction.

Globalization brings with it all sorts of disruptive changes. It disrupts traditional ways of doing business and changes the labor market. It urbanizes societies and encourages cosmopolitanism, which disrupts traditional ways of life and social relations. It changes demographics and disrupts what societies actually look like. On the morning of November 8th, a lot of Americans walked out their front door and said "this is not the America I remember." They then went down to the polling place and cast a vote for the person they thought would take them back in time.

When you say "They're like fuck it, what about me?," I kind of laugh. Remember when some of those same people were fond of telling others to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" when they complained about their failing communities? It was always about exercising self-responsibility. In 2016, when some of those same people are now living in communities that are failing, when they are the ones that cannot find a job, when their schools are in trouble, we need to elect a savior that will use the power of government to make it all better.

As for political correctness, we have to figure that out ourselves. The political correctness movement is private citizens using their collective power to shame others. In a free society, the ethics of speech - at least to a large extent - should be determined by the people and not government.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2017-01-16, 23:45

Turtleneck wrote:
WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I think it's more than that personally. There is some kind of a movement out there, not just from the extremists, but from a lot of people who think the current political state caters too much towards non white people. I'm not calling that movement racist, but I think there's a definite movement out there among white people who are so fucking sick and tired of the political correctness of trying to make sure that minority groups aren't excluded from shit that they're just done. They're like fuck it, what about me? Honestly I think that is a huge part of it. It's people that would not and do not consider themselves racist but are absolutely done with trying to put sensitivities above their own priorities.

I don't agree with this mindset personally, but I kind of get it. I think it's really tough for a straight white guy to put himself in the shoes of others and I don't think there's an easy answer.

I still can't understand how the answer is backing a thin-skinned reality TV star who doesn't even have a political compass let alone common sense in a world equipped with nuclear arms, political snakes, spies, etc.

Some of this reflects the disruptive forces of globalization. Notice that Trump is part of a global phenomenon. Populist messages have found receptive audiences in the West and elsewhere. What happened in November did not happen in isolation of the rest of the world. Brexit actually foreshadowed Trump's victory. There has always been a backlash to globalization in the lesser developed parts of the world. We did not notice in the West because we were too busy pushing globalization on the rest of the world. But when we began to feel the disruptive forces of globalization, well we have certainly had quite the reaction.

Globalization brings with it all sorts of disruptive changes. It disrupts traditional ways of doing business and changes the labor market. It urbanizes societies and encourages cosmopolitanism, which disrupts traditional ways of life and social relations. It changes demographics and disrupts what societies actually look like. On the morning of November 8th, a lot of Americans walked out their front door and said "this is not the America I remember." They then went down to the polling place and cast a vote for the person they thought would take them back in time.

When you say "They're like fuck it, what about me?," I kind of laugh. Remember when some of those same people were fond of telling others to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" when they complaining about their failing communities. It was always about self-responsibility. I guess when it is their communities that are failing, when they can not find a job, when their schools are in trouble, it was time to elect a savior that will use the power of government to make it all better.

As for political correctness, we have to figure that out ourselves. The political correctness movement is private citizens using their collective power to shame others. In a free society, the ethics of speech - at least to a large extent - should be determined by the people and not government.

Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 3434560931

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2017-01-17, 07:19

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:As someone who doesn't party identify, I have this question.

It seems to me that the party divide in this country has increased to an absurd level. Not going to opine on where that has led us, but for the politically uninformed, why? What has happened during Obama's tenure that has angered so much of the country? Is it ACA? More than that? Seems to like right now, there is so much hatred flowing around that the right just wants to fuck over Obama's legacy. I'm a guy that appreciates charisma on a talk show more than political action, but fuck, I find Barry pretty goddamned likable. What's the deal? Is it because he faked his birth certificate? Or because he's secretly an Iranian National? Or maybe he's a shape shifter lizard person? Please enlighten.

I'm definitely drunk. But this perplexes me. What is the cause of all of this anger and rebellion from the right? I don't get it.

he's black.

it's really that simple.

by **DWags** 2017-01-17, 09:20

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:As someone who doesn't party identify, I have this question.

It seems to me that the party divide in this country has increased to an absurd level. Not going to opine on where that has led us, but for the politically uninformed, why? What has happened during Obama's tenure that has angered so much of the country? Is it ACA? More than that? Seems to like right now, there is so much hatred flowing around that the right just wants to fuck over Obama's legacy. I'm a guy that appreciates charisma on a talk show more than political action, but fuck, I find Barry pretty goddamned likable. What's the deal? Is it because he faked his birth certificate? Or because he's secretly an Iranian National? Or maybe he's a shape shifter lizard person? Please enlighten.

I'm definitely drunk. But this perplexes me. What is the cause of all of this anger and rebellion from the right? I don't get it.
he's black.

it's really that simple.

It's really not. But for many that is a factor.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2017-01-17, 09:21

DWags wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:he's black.

it's really that simple.

It's really not. But for many that is a factor.

I'm okay with disagreeing.

by Guest 2017-01-17, 10:32

Robert J Sakimano wrote:he's black.
it's really that simple.

Yes, that's why Republicans hate Tim Scott. Obama is much blacker than he is...

Republican Senator Tim Scott Democrat Barack Obama
Winner in a landslide
Got more votes in SC than Lindsay Graham
Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 MTE5NDg0MDU1MzYzMTU5NTY3

Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 MTE5NDg0MDU1MzYzMTU5NTY3

Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 Twitter_cards_potus

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2017-01-17, 10:44

LooseGoose wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:he's black.
it's really that simple.

Yes, that's why Republicans hate Tim Scott. Obama is much blacker than he is...

Republican Senator Tim Scott Democrat Barack Obama
Winner in a landslide
Got more votes in SC than Lindsay Graham

Republicans like Uncle Tim because he tows their line.. he's one of the ones who behave and knows his place. And they can point at him (kind of like you did) and say "look.. over there.. see.. we like black people".

Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 502811600

Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 502811600

by Guest 2017-01-17, 11:07

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Yes, that's why Republicans hate Tim Scott. Obama is much blacker than he is...

Republican Senator Tim Scott Democrat Barack Obama
Winner in a landslide
Got more votes in SC than Lindsay Graham
Republicans like Uncle Tim because he tows their line.. he's one of the ones who behave and knows his place. And they can point at him (kind of like you did) and say "look.. over there.. see.. we like black people".

Bobby? It's "toe".

And I like how your story changes - they hate Obama because he's black but love Scott because he's a black lackey. Nah, you're not racist at all.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2017-01-17, 11:11

LooseGoose wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Republicans like Uncle Tim because he tows their line.. he's one of the ones who behave and knows his place. And they can point at him (kind of like you did) and say "look.. over there.. see.. we like black people".

Bobby? It's "toe".

And I like how your story changes - they hate Obama because he's black but love Scott because he's a black lackey. Nah, you're not racist at all.

I'm sorry that you don't like my opinion and that you need a safe space to protect you from opinions unlike your own.

by Guest 2017-01-17, 12:12

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Bobby? It's "toe".

And I like how your story changes - they hate Obama because he's black but love Scott because he's a black lackey. Nah, you're not racist at all.
I'm sorry that you don't like my opinion and that you need a safe space to protect you from opinions unlike your own.

It's not your opinion that offends me it's your racism.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2017-01-17, 12:15

LooseGoose wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm sorry that you don't like my opinion and that you need a safe space to protect you from opinions unlike your own.

It's not your opinion that offends me it's your racism.

Serious Question about Obama/#LIBS - Page 2 AvHnbUZ

by **WhiteBoyHatcher** 2017-01-22, 19:35

This is gonna be long, but I'd appreciate you sticking with it, especially LG.

So this thread predictably went off the rails, but I was giving this some more thought this morning, as well as thinking about some of the exchanges I and others had with Loose yesterday. They were not bad exchanges, but what particularly is interesting to me is the mindset and I'm trying to understand it.

Loose, you said yesterday when we were joking about the Dwags/MSU analogies and JLS/Muddy something about how you just hoped that he would uphold/enact some sense of conservatism policy-wise. I'm paraphrasing so apologies if I got it wrong but I think I captured the essence, feel free to correct.

This led me to think more about the OP, the concept of "teams" as OTPT puts it, etc. Are we that divided along party lines and policy in this country that this is what this boils down to?

To further that question, LG has done a lot of sticking up for Trump, even though he says he didn't vote for him. What I initially thought was confirmation bias about wanting to have Trump's back no matter what to prove their vote was correct, I'm now starting to think is more anti-Lib driven. It is quite clear to me that LG and many other conservatives really dislike Liberals and Liberal policy. I am not a policy guy, and it's why I never gave a fuck about politics really. And conversely, I think it's why I'm hung up on this election and trying to understand the mindset.

Questions that have come up out of this line of thinking, that I would appreciate an honest response from the Trump supporters.

-Are you able to take politics out of the equation and judge this man, to date, on the body of evidence he has displayed? Politics aside, does he come off to you as a good, honest, trustworthy, likable person? I don't want the response to compare him to Obama, good or bad. Just general sense.
-Follow up - is part of what you like about this guy that he upsets liberals so much? I ask because I see a lot of evidence of this.
-Lastly, is your support/defense merely because you believe so staunchly in hard core conservative/right wing policies and you know that he is your best chance to see the things you believe in instituted and enacted?

What troubles me, in all honestly, as someone who as I said doesn't care so much about policy, is the willingness to cast aside #1 because of #s 2 and 3. I care much more about human decency and common sense than I do about Roe vs. Wade or tax policy or shit like that. I get that others don't, just trying to explain where my head is at.

by **InTenSity** 2017-01-22, 20:22

Wbh. Not top answer your question. I've never registered with a party. I'll vote split ticket, although I tend to vote more to the left, I'll still vote for candidates on the right. Not anymore, the Christian right scares me more than sharia law. After this election I'll never leave a ballot empty or vote Republican again. I just hope I have another chance to vote.

by Guest 2017-01-22, 21:31

InTenSity wrote:Wbh. Not top answer your question. I've never registered with a party. I'll vote split ticket, although I tend to vote more to the left, I'll still vote for candidates on the right. Not anymore, the Christian right scares me more than sharia law. After this election I'll never leave a ballot empty or vote Republican again. I just hope I have another chance to vote.

This is absolutely hilarious - you can't be serious.

And these are the two statements:

"the Christian right scares me more than sharia law."
Please tell me what you fear from the "Christian Right"? What exactly do they have in mind to harm you and yours?

"I just hope I have another chance to vote."
And again, tell me what leads you to believe that the days of elections are over in the USA?

by **DWags** 2017-01-22, 21:45

LooseGoose wrote:
InTenSity wrote:Wbh. Not top answer your question. I've never registered with a party. I'll vote split ticket, although I tend to vote more to the left, I'll still vote for candidates on the right. Not anymore, the Christian right scares me more than sharia law. After this election I'll never leave a ballot empty or vote Republican again. I just hope I have another chance to vote.

This is absolutely hilarious - you can't be serious.

And these are the two statements:

"the Christian right scares me more than sharia law."
Please tell me what you fear from the "Christian Right"? What exactly do they have in mind to harm you and yours?

"I just hope I have another chance to vote."
And again, tell me what leads you to believe that the days of elections are over in the USA?

The right doesn't bother me, but the Christian Right can so easily lie to themselves about values and are so hypocritical that I. Elieve if enough were in power we'd all have to sleep with one eye open. With the right they tell you where they stand and you know it.

by Guest 2017-01-22, 21:58

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:To further that question, LG has done a lot of sticking up for Trump, even though he says he didn't vote for him.

My first irritant. You continue it. "even though he says he didn't" If I'm presumed a liar why bother? I've stated it over and over and over. I did not cast a vote for Trump in either the Primary or the General. Period.

That fact does not mean I can't argue with those that want to portray what he and/or the Republicans want to do in a false light.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:It is quite clear to me that LG and many other conservatives really dislike Liberals and Liberal policy.

And while waiting for more of the stupid "other guy" retorts. This sentence is EXACTLY why I get pissed. You admit you are or have been low information BUT - the information you do have has told you that "conservatives really dislike Liberals". Are you aware enough to realize how biased that statement is?

Have you read the SHIT that Liberals say about Cons? Not only Nationally but in here? I'm not going to plead innocence but you need to realize that it's fully populated 2 way freeway of dislike.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:-Are you able to take politics out of the equation and judge this man, to date, on the body of evidence he has displayed? Politics aside, does he come off to you as a good, honest, trustworthy, likable person? I don't want the response to compare him to Obama, good or bad. Just general sense.

Yep, I've called him names for a year or more. But. He won, he's President and it's time to give him a chance. Because he's a jerk should he have the election overturned? If you read Robert Reich that's just the plan of many Republicans which I've speculated here, they'll impeach him to get Pence in. He may be a jerk, he may have made mistakes in the past that were very offensive to people but I'm willing to give him a chance to govern. Perhaps he'll do a hell of a job. IF not there will be LOTS and LOTS of people ready to drop the hammer on him.

2nd point that has given me some reassurance through this whole Trump thing. For someone that has been a public jerk and is on wife #3 he seems to have raised some pretty good and well adjusted kids that any of us would be proud of. 20/20 ran an hour long special Thursday with interviews of all 3 oldest children. You should dig it up and watch it, you see a different side of Trump. The kids and that give me some hope that this may turn out better than people think.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:-Follow up - is part of what you like about this guy that he upsets liberals so much? I ask because I see a lot of evidence of this.

There is a part of me that snickers at the Liberal meltdown, again the converse of this occurred the last 8 years and it even had/has a name. ODS - for Obama Derangement Syndrome. That's the term liberals used to describe Conservative meltdowns over Obama.

It's sort of like Intensity with the "no more elections" thing below. I love the guy but that's not even close to real. It's derangement.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:-Lastly, is your support/defense merely because you believe so staunchly in hard core conservative/right wing policies and you know that he is your best chance to see the things you believe in instituted and enacted?

You need to keep in mind the choices that were presented. Had the Democrats nominated someone like Tim Kaine or Joe Manchin then Donald Trump would not be President. They nominated Hillary Clinton and if anyone this ODS was strong HDS was stronger. In other words the Dems nominated the ONE PERSON that could scare people on the right the most. Even with that being the case there were plenty of R's that didn't support Trump.

Now again to your word choices - it tells me again that contrary to your claim of centerism you've had the press indoctrination of the left. Why?

The usage of this term: "hard core conservative/right wing policies" The press plays every belief of the right as "hard core" and "extreme" while rarely using those terms for the left. I have examples but I've typed enough for how much people actually pay attention rather than just spew.

by Guest 2017-01-22, 22:04

2 additions/clarifications.

"Have you read the SHIT that Liberals say about Cons? Not only Nationally but in here? I'm not going to plead innocence but you need to realize that it's fully populated 2 way freeway of dislike."

This includes not only all the evil intentions that cons have.....but also the insults about education levels, IQ levels, not knowing what's good for us, hicks, etc, etc. If you're interested in a story that sort of touches on this there was a helluva an article in Politico about one small county in WI.

And I didn't answer this well "Lastly, is your support/defense merely because you believe so staunchly in hard core conservative/right wing policies and you know that he is your best chance to see the things you believe in instituted and enacted?"

Yes. Compared to Hills many made this choice. Had they thought his opponent was more of a centrist like Manchin then many would have made a different choice.

by Guest 2017-01-22, 22:07

The Politico article I referred to - a really good read.

‘What Do You Do if a Red State Moves to You?’

Many Americans woke up after the election to discover that they lived in Trump Country. In one corner of Wisconsin, shocked liberals can’t escape an uneasy feeling: They were the reason why.

Pepin County, Wisconsin—The morning after Donald Trump was elected president, Andrea Myklebust’s sheep needed new hay. Distraught by the results from the night before, feeling like this was the first day of a suddenly altered American reality, she walked down the driveway of her farm to meet the man who brings her feed for her flock. Myklebust didn’t know for sure, but she suspected he had voted for Trump, a person she considered odious, dangerous and unqualified for the job he had just won. She said nothing about the election, and neither did he, as they talked only about where to drop the bales of hay—a brief exchange during which, she told me, she tried to “rearrange” her facial expression into something “neutral,” “friendly.” She could do only so much, though, to mask her despair. The sculptor, shepherd and weaver had moved from Minnesota’s Twin Cities because she found this area’s rolling hills bucolic and welcoming—and now, and for the first time in her 11 years here, she felt uneasy.

When I met Myklebust, 51, in late November, these sentiments had not softened. She described the history-twisting election of 2016 in stark, before-and-after terms, unable to fathom how anybody could have voted for Trump, much less three-fifths of the people with whom she shares her adopted home in Pepin County. “There is sort of a baseline assumption of common sense and decency that’s been thrown into question in a way I never expected it to be,” she said. “And it’s a struggle. You have to continue to interact with people, and you have to wonder: Do you really have hate in your heart in this way? Really? At the core, I didn’t believe this about us.”

The population of the county is barely more than 7,000 people, which can give it an everybody-knows-everybody sort of allure. But in this tiny county, the smallest in Wisconsin, wedged against the east bank of the Mississippi River, Myklebust and so many other Democrats and progressives woke up November 9 jilted, deeply confused about where they lived—where they had lived for years, decades, even their entire lives. Wisconsin, after all, hadn’t voted for a Republican for president since 1984, and Pepin County itself had gone blue in every presidential election since 1972. This put it near the top of a sizeable, nationwide list of similarly flipped counties—the rural, out-of-the-way spots on the map that made Trump president. It left those on the losing end of the tally roundly stunned.

“Totally shocked,” said Wally Zick, 71.

“Blew me away,” said Jen Peterson, 36.

“My mom said, ‘What happened to our blue state?’” said Alex Johnson, 24. “I said, ‘Trump set it on fire.’”

by Guest 2017-01-22, 22:26

And the Reich thing I referred to above.....EXACTLY what I've speculated on in this forum for weeks now.

Clinton Labor Secretary: Republicans In Congress Think Trump Is A Lunatic And Will IMPEACH Him

Robert Reich, the Clinton-era secretary of labor, is claiming to have inside information indicating that Republicans in Congress are clandestinely planning to impeach President Donald Trump because they think Trump “is out of his mind.”

Reich published his exclusive knowledge of the situation on Facebook Saturday morning.

The lowdown comes from a breakfast rendezvous with “a former Republican member of Congress,” Reich said.

The ex-congressman described Trump as “no Republican,” Reich said. “He’s just a big fat ego.”

Republicans in Congress will “play along for a while” with Trump to achieve smaller government: “tax cuts galore, deregulation, military buildup, slash all those poverty programs, and then get to work on Social Security and Medicare — and blame him. And he’s such a fool he’ll want to take credit for everything.”

Eventually, Reich quotes the ex-congressman as saying, Republicans in Congress will seize on “something really dumb” Trump does that “violates the law in a big stupid clumsy way.”

by **WhiteBoyHatcher** 2017-01-22, 22:45

Thanks LG. I'll try to clarify some of my OP tomorrow. Just to your first point, I didn't mean anything by it. Quite frankly I just loosely remembered you saying you didn't vote for him and wasn't sure if that was right or not but was too lazy to look it up. Didn't want to say you definitively didn't vote for him if you hadn't stated that explicitly.

by Herbie Green 2017-01-22, 23:14

Do liberals have the same level of industry in media propaganda as conservatives?

I imagine it will be big business now given the widespread dislike of Trump. This could unite people into their own cult behavior

by Herbie Green 2017-01-22, 23:29

InTenSity wrote:Wbh. Not top answer your question. I've never registered with a party. I'll vote split ticket, although I tend to vote more to the left, I'll still vote for candidates on the right. Not anymore, the Christian right scares me more than sharia law. After this election I'll never leave a ballot empty or vote Republican again. I just hope I have another chance to vote.

I am in the same boat. I seem to have become more and more liberal with age. Or did the Republicans become more conservative?
I don't know if I would vote for another single Republican ever again either. I see a lot of this."Democrats are sore losers blah blah blah" but there is outrage from people like me in the middle as well. I have never identified with a political party and quite frankly haven't given a rats ass about politics my entire life. Maybe I feel strongly about a couple of things like keeping the Great Lakes clean and not having the police bust my door down for smoking a joint in my living room. Otherwise it doesn't really affect my life. I don't think I had ever posted on Wells Hall or here until a couple of months ago. By the end of the year I will probably be linking articles from Daily Kos.

by **Cameron** 2017-01-22, 23:43

InTenSity wrote: Not anymore, the Christian right scares me more than sharia law.

Wow. That is a profoundly stupid thing to say. Just breathtaking.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2017-01-23, 01:08

Cameron wrote:
InTenSity wrote: Not anymore, the Christian right scares me more than sharia law.

Wow. That is a profoundly stupid thing to say. Just breathtaking.

Yeah intensity care to elaborate on that one ?

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