Re: What do you guys think of this Bernie Sanders guy?

by **Turtleneck** 2015-07-09, 10:07

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:Why not vote for her in the general election?
because I don't like the sound of "President Cruz or President (insert right wing hate monger here)"..

Choosing between the lessor of two evils still leaves you with evil.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-07-09, 11:52

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
because I don't like the sound of "President Cruz or President (insert right wing hate monger here)"..

Choosing between the lessor of two evils still leaves you with evil.

true.. and while, I'm no Obama fan, really, he's significantly better than the thought of a President McCain or President Romney.

by **steveschneider** 2015-07-09, 11:55

I like Bernie, I think he'd be a step in the right direction and am dreading the thought of another Bush or Clinton as president.

Hoping that he can energize the millennials and get them out voting.

by AnomanderRake 2015-08-03, 10:25

Bernie is the man. He's the only candidate speaking out about the biggest problem in politics...politicians are slaves to campaign funding and lobbying.

I wouldn't mind a little socialism either. I'd rather my tax dollars be spent helping people instead of dropping bombs all over the globe.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-06, 22:04

AnomanderRake wrote:I wouldn't mind a little socialism either.

Oh yeah... nothing a little force through the use of violence can't solve, amirite?

by AnomanderRake 2015-08-07, 11:19

xsanguine wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:I wouldn't mind a little socialism either.

Oh yeah... nothing a little force through the use of violence can't solve, amirite?

Not sure what you're implying here but Social Democracies are some of the least violent countries out there, both in terms of citizen vs citizen violence and government vs citizen violence.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-10, 20:40

AnomanderRake wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Oh yeah... nothing a little force through the use of violence can't solve, amirite?

Not sure what you're implying here but Social Democracies are some of the least violent countries out there, both in terms of citizen vs citizen violence and government vs citizen violence.

Just make sure you pay your vig and there won't be no problems with the uniformed juice collectors, capice?

by **GRR Spartan** 2015-08-17, 21:15

The difference between Bernie's version of what some are calling "socialism" is he isn't a big fan of what Citizen's United brought us and those taking the most advantage of Citizen's United decision love their socialism too. Theirs is directed to Big Oil, Big Pharma and Big Banking in the form of special rules and corporate welfare.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-20, 06:03

GRR Spartan wrote:The difference between Bernie's version of what some are calling "socialism" is he isn't a big fan of what Citizen's United brought us and those taking the most advantage of Citizen's United decision love their socialism too. Theirs is directed to Big Oil, Big Pharma and Big Banking in the form of special rules and corporate welfare.

It's all the same.

by AnomanderRake 2015-08-20, 08:40

xsanguine wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:The difference between Bernie's version of what some are calling "socialism" is he isn't a big fan of what Citizen's United brought us and those taking the most advantage of Citizen's United decision love their socialism too. Theirs is directed to Big Oil, Big Pharma and Big Banking in the form of special rules and corporate welfare.

It's all the same.

Corporate welfare is the same as welfare that helps the average citizen? How did you reach that conclusion? I think it's hilariously hypocritical how conservatives are OK with billions of dollars going towards military operations, defense contractors, Oil, pharmaceutical and banking corporations; yet at the same time they're adamantly against tax dollars being spent on helping the poor and the sick.

Bernie Sanders isn't going to save the world and neither is any other democrat/independent but the republican platform is simply absurd and we can't afford to let one of these morons lead the most powerful country in the world.

Things I expect to hear or have already heard from republicans leading up to the election:

Close the borders (lol good luck)

Spend more on military and start more wars

Let people that get sick go bankrupt and die

Make contraception illegal

Make gay marriage illegal

Get rid of unions forever

Make it more difficult for people to vote to prevent non-existent voter fraud.

Jobs!!!! With no plan for how to actually create them, just stating over and over that they know how and look at their state's jobs record.

The list goes on and on...

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-20, 12:03

In Politico, socialist academic Fredrik deBoer writes that Sanders "might just be the first SINO in American politics, the first Socialist In Name Only." At the recent Socialism 2015 convention in Chicago, deBoer found some attendees fear this candidacy "is a trick to bring socialists back into the Democratic fold."

Are Democrats Really Socialists
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-socialist-democrat-bernie-sanders-vermont-clinton-perspec-0820-jm-20150819-column.html

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-08-20, 17:04

AnomanderRake wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

It's all the same.

Corporate welfare is the same as welfare that helps the average citizen? How did you reach that conclusion? I think it's hilariously hypocritical how conservatives are OK with billions of dollars going towards military operations, defense contractors, Oil, pharmaceutical and banking corporations; yet at the same time they're adamantly against tax dollars being spent on helping the poor and the sick.

Bernie Sanders isn't going to save the world and neither is any other democrat/independent but the republican platform is simply absurd and we can't afford to let one of these morons lead the most powerful country in the world.

Things I expect to hear or have already heard from republicans leading up to the election:

Close the borders (lol good luck)

Spend more on military and start more wars

Let people that get sick go bankrupt and die

Make contraception illegal

Make gay marriage illegal

Get rid of unions forever

Make it more difficult for people to vote to prevent non-existent voter fraud.

Jobs!!!! With no plan for how to actually create them, just stating over and over that they know how and look at their state's jobs record.

The list goes on and on...

Spot on

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by **xsanguine** 2015-08-20, 20:00

AnomanderRake wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

It's all the same.

Corporate welfare is the same as welfare that helps the average citizen? How did you reach that conclusion? I think it's hilariously hypocritical how conservatives are OK with billions of dollars going towards military operations, defense contractors, Oil, pharmaceutical and banking corporations; yet at the same time they're adamantly against tax dollars being spent on helping the poor and the sick.

Bernie Sanders isn't going to save the world and neither is any other democrat/independent but the republican platform is simply absurd and we can't afford to let one of these morons lead the most powerful country in the world.

Things I expect to hear or have already heard from republicans leading up to the election:

Close the borders (lol good luck)

Spend more on military and start more wars

Let people that get sick go bankrupt and die

Make contraception illegal

Make gay marriage illegal

Get rid of unions forever

Make it more difficult for people to vote to prevent non-existent voter fraud.

Jobs!!!! With no plan for how to actually create them, just stating over and over that they know how and look at their state's jobs record.

The list goes on and on...

Some interesting assumptions you've come to simply because I don't like welfare taken from others by force across the board. Anything else you'd like to tell me about myself so that I don't have to take any positions?

I don't know anything about the Republicans other than Trump making the news. I'm not a Republican (and most certainly not a Democrat)... oh, and btw, I fucking love unions. Anything that is voluntary is great by me. I know it doesn't fit you're dream of state sponsored unions that get to stick it to anyone who doesn't want to belong to them or any other threat of violence those in control can embark on the populous... but I'm just not into forcing people into doing shit by threatening them with kidnapping and enslavement.

Sorry I can't join your club of state violence, dude.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-20, 20:10

Oh, and I do watch FNC at lunchtime (not that I have any choice and it's on mute) because Andrea Tantaros is fucking perfection (Dave Navarro is one lucky sonofabitch)... goddamn she's one bad bitch.

What do you guys think of this Bernie Sanders guy? - Page 2 28160AF500000578-3058419-image-a-5_1430199174162

What do you guys think of this Bernie Sanders guy? - Page 2 28160AF500000578-3058419-image-a-5_1430199174162

I mean, c'mon?

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-20, 20:47

xsanguine wrote:Oh, and I do watch FNC at lunchtime (not that I have any choice and it's on mute) because Andrea Tantaros is fucking perfection (Dave Navarro is one lucky sonofabitch)... goddamn she's one bad bitch.

[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/28/06/28160AF500000578-3058419-image-a-5_1430199174162.jpg[/

I mean, c'mon?

What is FNC? Do you drive to Freemont because you work on an asparagus farm?

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-20, 20:55

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:Oh, and I do watch FNC at lunchtime (not that I have any choice and it's on mute) because Andrea Tantaros is fucking perfection (Dave Navarro is one lucky sonofabitch)... goddamn she's one bad bitch.

[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/28/06/28160AF500000578-3058419-image-a-5_1430199174162.jpg[/

I mean, c'mon?

What is FNC? Do you drive to Freemont because you work on an asparagus farm?

Yes. I have a tv and satellite on my tractor.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-20, 21:08

It's a legit question. Freemont is in Oceana County, right? Lots of vegetable farms in OC.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-20, 21:46

Turtleneck wrote:It's a legit question. Freemont is in Oceana County, right? Lots of vegetable farms in OC.

Fremont. It's in Newaygo county. There is a lot of cornfields, little green fields (I assume soy) and tons of cows and even a bison farm (I always slow down and gawk... never seen one before), though.

There's really only one industry in that town (besides the farms, of course)... insurance. I'm looking forward to not having to make that drive any longer, though.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-20, 22:09

My bad. I thought it was in Oceana. Does Freemont have the Gerber factory?

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-20, 22:13

Turtleneck wrote:My bad. I thought it was in Oceana. Does Freemont have the Gerber factory?

Sure does, as well as Gerber Life.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-20, 22:15

Is that insurance? So Gerber feeds you as a baby and insures you as an adult?

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-20, 22:24

Turtleneck wrote:Is that insurance? So Gerber feeds you as a baby and insures you as an adult?

Yep, they're the biggest game in town. There's also the White Agency and Fremont Insurance and a couple other ones. Gerber Life began in the 60's and the other two began in the 1870's.

Were there still injuns in the 1870's? Seems like there would be but what do I know and I'm too lazy to google.

by AnomanderRake 2015-08-21, 08:37

xsanguine, now that you've written a lengthy reply I am going to assume you are an anarchist.

My rant wasn't necessarily directed at you as I was speaking about conservatives/republicans in general that think socialism is the spawn of Satan.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-21, 23:46

AnomanderRake wrote:xsanguine, now that you've written a lengthy reply I am going to assume you are an anarchist.

Damn, you're good.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-21, 23:46

I'm drunk... loet's talk politics.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-21, 23:49

No one wants to comment on Andrea Tantaros... she makes my pants fit a bit tighter.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-22, 00:11

xsanguine wrote:I'm drunk... loet's talk politics.

From my perspective, your quasi-anarchism is flawed for two reasons. First, you support free markets. Markets rely on private property. Property requires protection from a coercive central authority. Second, government, which is the coercive central authority needed to protect property, cannot remain limited. Even if you institute a limited state to protect property, that state will evolve and grow over time.

The Lockean approach that American libertarians take, some of whom call themselves anarchists (but they are not) is not realistic. Technology changes everything. Technology creates more property but also more inequality. This facilities the growth of government to further protect property, deal with inequality, or both. All of this means that a limited government is unlikely to stay limited for long.

Edit: Not sure why I posted this. I am getting up in a few hours and will probably go to bed rather than talk politics. Maybe. I don't know. I'm drinking coffee right now for no good reason.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:21

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:I'm drunk... loet's talk politics.

From my perspective, your quasi-anarchism is flawed for two reasons. First, you support free markets. Markets rely on private property. Property requires protection from a coercive central authority. Second, government, which is the coercive central authority needed to protect property, cannot remain limited. Even if you institute a limited state to protect property, that state will evolve and grow over time.

The Lockean approach that American libertarians take, some of whom call themselves anarchists (but they are not) is not realistic. Technology changes everything. Technology creates more property but also more inequality. This facilities the growth of government to further protect property, deal with inequality, or both. All of this means that a limited government is unlikely to stay limited for long.

Jesus, dude. First of all, I'm a minarchist... second of all... everything changes. Nothing is forever... democracy changes, anarchism changes, communism changes, dictatorships change. Nothing is forever. It's all fluid. There is no happily ever after. All we can do is take the most moral position available and go from there. What else you gonna do? Act like your way is the best way and is going to work for all eternity? It just ain't the way it works. No such thing as utopia.

We're all gonna be dust in the ground in the end as it is. Trying to find the perfect solution is about as useful as a tranny in a strip club. It's just not going to happen. We're animals... we evolved from violence and we'll end in violence. The fact remains is that anarchism is the only moral choice that exists. I don't give a fuck about reality because reality is a snapshot in time and changes by the minute... you can either agree with the moral decision or keep trying to control everyone else thinking it's possible it'll last.

We all gonna die the same way... and none of it will matter in the end.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:23

I'm not sure where I was going with the tranny comment... some people dig that kind of thing. I'm just not attracted to it... nothing wrong with it.

Some of my best friends are trannies..... actually I don't know any trannies but I'm sure they're just trying to make the best of their time on this rock flying through space like the rest of us. No judging... let 'em do them and the rest of us do us. Like I said... we all gonna end up the same in the end.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:24

Stay up and talk, TN. Fuck the coffee. why you getting up so early? Where abouts upstate are you?

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-22, 00:25

Dude, I was not attacking you. You said you wanted to talk politics. I figured you would rather talk about something other than Trump said this, Hillary did this, etc.

Anarchism is the only moral choice, but anarchism rejects both the state and property. Why should it have to compromise?

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-22, 00:26

xsanguine wrote:Stay up and talk, TN. Fuck the coffee. why you getting up so early? Where abouts upstate are you?

I live in Western NY. In the Finger Lakes. I am going for a run (really need to get back into shape) the market, and then whatever else comes my way.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:29

Goddamn... but seriously, guys. Seriously... how about that chick? She's a fucking dime, no? How the fuck did that goofy looking fuck Dave Navarro bag a conservative talk show host? I mean... I'm fucking good at guitar... real fucking good. But I don't got no nose piercings (or a million dollars). The fuck? I mean... Janes Addiction is good and all... but is this motherfucker really that much of a smooth talker to bag that 10? Really?

I dig his solos... for real, I dig Janes Addiction, especially Navarrro's playing... but that chick? She should be with like.... I dunno... who's a fucking hot dude? Brad Pitt or something? George Clooney? Those fucks? I dunno, maybe I'm getting too old... Colin Ferrel, right?

I got it... Billy Corgan should be banging Tantaros.. dude has 10 times the talent Navarro has. The fucker.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:32

Turtleneck wrote:Dude, I was not attacking you. You said you wanted to talk politics. I figured you would rather talk about something other than Trump said this, Hillary did this, etc.

Anarchism is the only moral choice, but anarchism rejects both the state and property. Why should it have to compromise?

Dude, I'm pretty hammered. I mean no offense, I always dig your posts... don't take me seriously to the point of offense.

Anarchism certainly rejects the state but not property. I don't completely dislike the state. I have a strange quarrel with wanting the state to exist simply for national defense and the most loose version of law enforcement (only involved in cases of force) but hating the forceful collection of taxation to support those things.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-22, 00:33

xsanguine wrote:Goddamn... but seriously, guys. Seriously... how about that chick? She's a fucking dime, no? How the fuck did that goofy looking fuck Dave Navarro bag a conservative talk show host? I mean... I'm fucking good at guitar... real fucking good. But I don't got no nose piercings (or a million dollars). The fuck? I mean... Janes Addiction is good and all... but is this motherfucker really that much of a smooth talker to bag that 10? Really?

I dig his solos... for real, I dig Janes Addiction, especially Navarrro's playing... but that chick? She should be with like.... I dunno... who's a fucking hot dude? Brad Pitt or something? George Clooney? Those fucks? I dunno, maybe I'm getting too old... Colin Ferrel, right?

I got it... Billy Corgan should be banging Tantaros.. dude has 10 times the talent Navarro has. The fucker.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-08-22, 00:35

xsanguine wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:Dude, I was not attacking you. You said you wanted to talk politics. I figured you would rather talk about something other than Trump said this, Hillary did this, etc.

Anarchism is the only moral choice, but anarchism rejects both the state and property. Why should it have to compromise?

Dude, I'm pretty hammered. I mean no offense, I always dig your posts... don't take me seriously to the point of offense.

Anarchism certainly rejects the state but not property. I don't completely dislike the state. I have a strange quarrel with wanting the state to exist simply for national defense and the most loose version of law enforcement (only involved in cases of force) but hating the forceful collection of taxation to support those things.

It absolutely rejects capitalism and private property.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:35

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:Stay up and talk, TN. Fuck the coffee. why you getting up so early? Where abouts upstate are you?

I live in Western NY. In the Finger Lakes. I am going for a run (really need to get back into shape) the market, and then whatever else comes my way.

Never made it that far west... unforuntately. I hear it's gorgeous. Huge fan of the Adirondacks, been to just about every part. I love the Adirondacks....

I'm trying to get into shape, too. Just starting lifting again this week. I hate fucking running, though. I can run on a treadmill while I watch tv or something... but I hate fucking running outside on cement. Shit sucks.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:35

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Dude, I'm pretty hammered. I mean no offense, I always dig your posts... don't take me seriously to the point of offense.

Anarchism certainly rejects the state but not property. I don't completely dislike the state. I have a strange quarrel with wanting the state to exist simply for national defense and the most loose version of law enforcement (only involved in cases of force) but hating the forceful collection of taxation to support those things.

It absolutely rejects capitalism and private property.

How do you figure? I consider myself pretty well versed in modern anarchism and this is the first I'm hearing about this.

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:38

Turtleneck wrote:
xsanguine wrote:Goddamn... but seriously, guys. Seriously... how about that chick? She's a fucking dime, no? How the fuck did that goofy looking fuck Dave Navarro bag a conservative talk show host? I mean... I'm fucking good at guitar... real fucking good. But I don't got no nose piercings (or a million dollars). The fuck? I mean... Janes Addiction is good and all... but is this motherfucker really that much of a smooth talker to bag that 10? Really?

I dig his solos... for real, I dig Janes Addiction, especially Navarrro's playing... but that chick? She should be with like.... I dunno... who's a fucking hot dude? Brad Pitt or something? George Clooney? Those fucks? I dunno, maybe I'm getting too old... Colin Ferrel, right?

I got it... Billy Corgan should be banging Tantaros.. dude has 10 times the talent Navarro has. The fucker.

What do you guys think of this Bernie Sanders guy? - Page 2 3493939353

by **xsanguine** 2015-08-22, 00:42

Had to change that shit up. No good live versions of Frail and Bedazzled.... quintessential 90's.

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