Why don't companies learn from other companies' mistakes?

Especially when they're in the same sector.

A growing chorus is calling on the Mylan pharmaceutical company to justify its price hikes on EpiPens, a potentially life-saving medication for children and others facing fatal allergies that has little real competition.

In 2007, a two-pack of the epinephrine-filled devices went for $56.64 wholesale, according to data gathered by Connecture, a health insurance technology and data analytics company. Now it's jumped to $365.16, an increase of 544.77 percent. Since the end of 2013, the price has gone up by 15 percent every other quarter.

When Marin Shkreli calls you a vulture you know something's not right.

Martin Shkreli Weighs in on EpiPen Scandal, Calls Drug Makers 'Vultures'

What mistake did they make?

One of the largest generic manufacturers in the world is about to release their generic of the EpiPen. It was delayed by the FDA and will likely come out next year. EpiPen is just trying to bolster their sales and maximize profits before their first generic competitor hits the market next year and they are forced to drop their price to compete.

Yeah it's disgusting and messed up they're able to put a price on people's lives like this but that's the nature of a health care system with free market elements like ours.

The mistake, IMHO, was underestimating the amount of public and press backlash they'd received for price gouging before being called to the Hill for a good old fashioned congressional hearing (soon to follow).

Floyd Robertson wrote:The mistake, IMHO, was underestimating the amount of public and press backlash they'd received for price gouging before being called to the Hill for a good old fashioned congressional hearing (soon to follow).

Yeah I'm sure they expected quite a bit of backlash but probably didn't expect to get called in by the feds. The fact is their entire customer base is captive buyers so they can charge whatever they want. As far as I know they didn't do anything illegal did they? To me this whole situation is more a symptom of our horrible health care system than it is the fault of a business doing anything they can to maximize profits.

AnomanderRake wrote:

Floyd Robertson wrote:The mistake, IMHO, was underestimating the amount of public and press backlash they'd received for price gouging before being called to the Hill for a good old fashioned congressional hearing (soon to follow).

Yeah I'm sure they expected quite a bit of backlash but probably didn't expect to get called in by the feds. The fact is their entire customer base is captive buyers so they can charge whatever they want. As far as I know they didn't do anything illegal did they? To me this whole situation is more a symptom of our horrible health care system than it is the fault of a business doing anything they can to maximize profits.

No, they didn't do anything illegal.

It always infuriates me when companies try to make a profit. I get fighting mad. I may write a stern letter to someone over this outrage!

TheReal_LWS wrote:It always infuriates me when companies try to make a profit. I get fighting mad. I may write a stern letter to someone over this outrage!

There's reasonable profit and then there's PROFIT.

Profit over lives. Sounds about right.

I'm at ground zero of this bull shit. Luckily with some coupons from our doctor it knocked it down to about $450. My HSA account took a nice hit This price hike is also tied to the schools getting grants now for epipens. The mfr saw free $$$ so got greedy. I hope congress reams them with an epipen sans lube..

Be grateful you don't have a rare disease. I work in that field, and each patients treatment is 6 figures a year for the rest of their lives. But that shit will always be expensive because there are so few taking them, and it's the only thing keeping them alive. Overall though, orphan drugs make up less than 1% of costs in healthcare.

By-Tor wrote:I'm at ground zero of this bull shit. Luckily with some coupons from our doctor it knocked it down to about $450. My HSA account took a nice hit This price hike is also tied to the schools getting grants now for epipens. The mfr saw free $$$ so got greedy. I hope congress reams them with an epipen sans lube..

Wait a minute, you're telling me, once the government started subsidizing a product, the price of that product rose disproportionately?
Wow, wonder if that has ever happened with any other products?

I.B. Fine wrote:

By-Tor wrote:I'm at ground zero of this bull shit. Luckily with some coupons from our doctor it knocked it down to about $450. My HSA account took a nice hit This price hike is also tied to the schools getting grants now for epipens. The mfr saw free $$$ so got greedy. I hope congress reams them with an epipen sans lube..

Wait a minute, you're telling me, once the government started subsidizing a product, the price of that product rose disproportionately?
Wow, wonder if that has ever happened with any other products?

And as usual the very people "solving" our health care issues are knee deep in causing them.

How a senator’s daughter became CEO of the company at the center of the EpiPen controversy

The dramatic, 400 percent rise in the cost of EpiPens is the next big flashpoint in the national debate over skyrocketing prescription drug prices.

It turns out that the woman at the center of this controversy has powerful political connections. My colleague Catherine Ho reports that the head of Mylan, the drug company accused of hiking the price of the pen that treats severe allergic reactions, is also the daughter of Joe Manchin, a Democratic U.S. senator from West Virginia and the state's former governor.

Heather Bresch's career has risen along with her father's, a fact that has not gone unnoticed by her critics.

Dendrobates wrote:Be grateful you don't have a rare disease. I work in that field, and each patients treatment is 6 figures a year for the rest of their lives. But that shit will always be expensive because there are so few taking them, and it's the only thing keeping them alive. Overall though, orphan drugs make up less than 1% of costs in healthcare.

I recently got diagnosed with histoplasmosis, doc said treatment runs about $1000/month. He then told me that unless I have cancer and need chemotherapy or some other life threatening disease not to bother because it will probably go away on it's own.

AnomanderRake wrote:What mistake did they make?

One of the largest generic manufacturers in the world is about to release their generic of the EpiPen. It was delayed by the FDA and will likely come out next year. EpiPen is just trying to bolster their sales and maximize profits before their first generic competitor hits the market next year and they are forced to drop their price to compete.

Yeah it's disgusting and messed up they're able to put a price on people's lives like this but that's the nature of a health care system with free market elements like ours.

Delayed by the FDA.... free market....

Something doesn't compute.

Jake from State Farm wrote:

Dendrobates wrote:Be grateful you don't have a rare disease. I work in that field, and each patients treatment is 6 figures a year for the rest of their lives. But that shit will always be expensive because there are so few taking them, and it's the only thing keeping them alive. Overall though, orphan drugs make up less than 1% of costs in healthcare.

I recently got diagnosed with histoplasmosis, doc said treatment runs about $1000/month. He then told me that unless I have cancer and need chemotherapy or some other life threatening disease not to bother because it will probably go away on it's own.

Sorry about that dx, but glad it can clear up on its own. Take that shit and run with it. The stuff I deal with are genetic diseases, and there are no other options. So thankfully now no one can be denied treatment , and insurances have got to cover that stuff.

Lost faith in the medical industry many years ago. The "preventative care" thing has just been a rouse to keep getting money out of your pocket, recommending unnecessary tests and/or prescribing unneeded medication. The escalation of health care costs/premiums and the development of what I consider a hypochondriac culture through the media makes me ill.

The pharmaceutical TV ads have to be stopped, first. Complete bullshit they are allowed to make public sales pitches like, "Go talk to your doctor..." about getting a prescription for the shit they are selling.

The Pantry wrote:Lost faith in the medical industry many years ago. The "preventative care" thing has just been a rouse to keep getting money out of your pocket, recommending unnecessary tests and/or prescribing unneeded medication. The escalation of health care costs/premiums and the development of what I consider a hypochondriac culture through the media makes me ill.

The pharmaceutical TV ads have to be stopped, first. Complete bullshit they are allowed to make public sales pitches like, "Go talk to your doctor..." about getting a prescription for the shit they are selling.

You know my feeling on pharma ads. Turning American into the land of hypochondriacs one ad at a time. I hate then when I decide to watch the evening news that 85% of the ads are pharma. It would be great if congress or the FCC would do us a favor and limit the number of pharma ads per 1/2 hour to no more than 10% of available ad slots. OK, I'll stop yelling at clouds now, it's dark and I can't even see the clouds.

The Pantry wrote:Lost faith in the medical industry many years ago. The "preventative care" thing has just been a rouse to keep getting money out of your pocket, recommending unnecessary tests and/or prescribing unneeded medication. The escalation of health care costs/premiums and the development of what I consider a hypochondriac culture through the media makes me ill.

The pharmaceutical TV ads have to be stopped, first. Complete bullshit they are allowed to make public sales pitches like, "Go talk to your doctor..." about getting a prescription for the shit they are selling.

There's starting to be a lot of epi-pen ads on lately. I wonder why that is.

By-Tor wrote:I'm at ground zero of this bull shit.  Luckily with some coupons from our doctor it knocked it down to about $450.   My HSA account took a nice hit    This price hike is also tied to the schools getting grants now for epipens.  The mfr saw free $$$ so got greedy.   I hope congress reams them with an epipen sans lube..

I am with you at ground zero.  My daughter is two and is off the charts in terms of reaction so the allergists says she needs three sets, one at the house, one at daycare, one with her at all times.  

$1,800 a year for fucking epipens (not to mention another $600 and an emergency room visit if she uses one).

Epinephrine has been around for over 100 years, a vial costs less ten bucks retail (enough for 67 epipens, or 133 epipen juniors that my daughter uses).  We live in a great country.

MSU addict wrote:

By-Tor wrote:I'm at ground zero of this bull shit.  Luckily with some coupons from our doctor it knocked it down to about $450.   My HSA account took a nice hit    This price hike is also tied to the schools getting grants now for epipens.  The mfr saw free $$$ so got greedy.   I hope congress reams them with an epipen sans lube..

I am with you at ground zero.  My daughter is two and is off the charts in terms of reaction so the allergists says she needs three sets, one at the house, one at daycare, one with her at all times.  

$1,800 a year for fucking epipens (not to mention another $600 and an emergency room visit if she uses one).

Epinephrine has been around for over 100 years, a vial costs less ten bucks retail (enough for 67 epipens, or 133 epipen juniors that my daughter uses).  We live in a great country.

That sucks bro. Hopefully you'll never have to use one. I tried to convince my wife that the exp date on those things are very likely bogus but she tuned me out right away. Was trying to squeeze one more year out of last years pens.

MSU addict wrote:

By-Tor wrote:I'm at ground zero of this bull shit.  Luckily with some coupons from our doctor it knocked it down to about $450.   My HSA account took a nice hit    This price hike is also tied to the schools getting grants now for epipens.  The mfr saw free $$$ so got greedy.   I hope congress reams them with an epipen sans lube..

I am with you at ground zero.  My daughter is two and is off the charts in terms of reaction so the allergists says she needs three sets, one at the house, one at daycare, one with her at all times.  

$1,800 a year for fucking epipens (not to mention another $600 and an emergency room visit if she uses one).

Epinephrine has been around for over 100 years, a vial costs less ten bucks retail (enough for 67 epipens, or 133 epipen juniors that my daughter uses).  We live in a great country.

I know nothing of epipens so there is probably a good explanation for this, but why couldn't you just get some disposable syringes and just buy some cheap vials instead?

MSU addict wrote:

By-Tor wrote:I'm at ground zero of this bull shit.  Luckily with some coupons from our doctor it knocked it down to about $450.   My HSA account took a nice hit    This price hike is also tied to the schools getting grants now for epipens.  The mfr saw free $$$ so got greedy.   I hope congress reams them with an epipen sans lube..

I am with you at ground zero.  My daughter is two and is off the charts in terms of reaction so the allergists says she needs three sets, one at the house, one at daycare, one with her at all times.  

$1,800 a year for fucking epipens (not to mention another $600 and an emergency room visit if she uses one).

Epinephrine has been around for over 100 years, a vial costs less ten bucks retail (enough for 67 epipens, or 133 epipen juniors that my daughter uses).  We live in a great country.

if she has one with her at all times, why does she need the other two? (Not being funny, I am serious.)

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

MSU addict wrote:
I am with you at ground zero.  My daughter is two and is off the charts in terms of reaction so the allergists says she needs three sets, one at the house, one at daycare, one with her at all times.  

$1,800 a year for fucking epipens (not to mention another $600 and an emergency room visit if she uses one).

Epinephrine has been around for over 100 years, a vial costs less ten bucks retail (enough for 67 epipens, or 133 epipen juniors that my daughter uses).  We live in a great country.

I know nothing of epipens so there is probably a good explanation for this, but why couldn't you just get some disposable syringes and just buy some cheap vials instead?

In theory you could, that is what a lot of EMT's have moved to and that is what she gets when she goes to the hospital.  

That said, there is just no way a doctor writes a script for a vial of epinephrine for someone who's kid has allergies.  I would think the chance of a mistake and incorrect dosage is too great, especially under stress and when your kid goes into anaphylactic shock it is bit stressful.

What we get is a prescription a for three sets of epipens (they are only sold in a two pack).  Each set costs $600, (FWIW the $100 coupon they offer is only good on the first set).

If the doctor writes the script for epipens, you cannot fill it with a "generic."  There is no generic - the script if for the auto injector and the other companies have a different auto injector that the government says are not the same.  Not that it matters much - it is like the diamond market - the competitors have all raised there prices so even those are around $500.00.

No new technology, no research and development - just a 500+% price increase.

TheReal_LWS wrote:

MSU addict wrote:
I am with you at ground zero.  My daughter is two and is off the charts in terms of reaction so the allergists says she needs three sets, one at the house, one at daycare, one with her at all times.  

$1,800 a year for fucking epipens (not to mention another $600 and an emergency room visit if she uses one).

Epinephrine has been around for over 100 years, a vial costs less ten bucks retail (enough for 67 epipens, or 133 epipen juniors that my daughter uses).  We live in a great country.

if she has one with her at all times, why does she need the other two? (Not being funny, I am serious.)

I asked the same question.  

As I said, my daughter is two.  She is too young to actually carry it on her person, it stays with her "diaper bag" (she is actually potty trained).  If you have never seen an epipen - they are big around 6" x 1" times two with the holder around 6" x 3".

She is most likely to have a reaction at home or at daycare (actually more likely at daycare, as our house has been scoured of any potential problems and we just don't buy or eat anything she in allergic to).  The thought is they want a set out in the open, clearly accessible at all times at home and at daycare.  There is just too much risk to have to locate the "floating" set.  She needs an injection within about 5 minutes and you are under stress when it happens - imagine your kid with throwing up, her eyes rolling back, losing consciousness and having difficulty breathing, it is not fun.

I do not mind having three sets.  I do not mind paying for three sets.  But yeah, I am offended at a 500% price increase for something that my daughter must have and there is no rational justification for that price increase except greed.

Apparently you can buy a two pack in Canada without a prescription for $113, or around 10% of what your insurance company gets charged in the U.S.

My nephew has a severe nut allergy that was diagnosed when he was 2. They have been buying them from Canada since the cost doubled.

Canada sells the pen that is manufactured by a pharamceutical company in England.
But you know how dangerous Canadian and English medicine are.
They are very dangerous to the bottom lines of US drug companies like Mylan.