Swedes scratch heads at Trump's suggestion of major incident

Antineoplastons wrote:

DWags wrote:

My problem is with nationalism on the rise. Ever since Bismarck in Germany and the red shirts in Italy united those countries under the guise of super patriotic nationalism something very bad globally takes place. Where America was always the voice of reason, we have a leader who is a sword rattler now. And asking the countries of Europe to anny up for NATO is fine, but let's remember we're encouraging all of them to increase their military budgets.  Buckle up.

"Where America was always the voice of reason"

Yeah, thankfully Americans never rounded up and interned the Japanese like the German did the Jews.  Because, MURICA BABY!!!

At least most of us don't deny it happened.

this burough has been plagued with crime, unemployment, and residents with lower education rates.  a riot happened 7 years ago as well.

So now we're giving Trump credit for being able to predict crime in a slum?

Whats next, we gonna give him credit for predicting its gonna rain in Seattle?

kingstonlake wrote:

Antineoplastons wrote:

"Where America was always the voice of reason"

Yeah, thankfully Americans never rounded up and interned the Japanese like the German did the Jews.  Because, MURICA BABY!!!

At least most of us don't deny it happened.

And we're taught it and we attempted to make corrections. Not enough and we do make mistakes.

AnomanderRake wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Do we have any data that would support this?

It seems logical to conclude that someone's culture might follow them and their offspring even if they move to a different geographical location.

Yes X, there is research that shows the correlation between socioeconomic status and crime rate. Regarding the studies on refugees and immigrants, considering there is no significant difference between first generation immigrants' crime rate and the general population, it's reasonable to think that their culture or religion are not making them more likely to commit crimes.

Given that these immigrants and refugees are disproportionately poor, it's also reasonable to think that their children would commit crimes at a rate higher than the general population (as many low socioeconomic status groups are prone to do).

I'm aware there are studies that make that correlation (there's also studies correlating IQ to crime and race to crime), I guess what I really meant by the question is in regards to where culture and law come to a confrontation. When Islam is brought up in this context it's centered around violence against women. This would be a huge cultural difference between the Middle East and Europe. I haven't heard many people suspect immigrants would be highly represented in cases of embezzlement or Ponzi schemes or counterfeiting. It generally centers on sexual violence due to the laws and behaviors we see in those host countries.
I'm unable to find much data, I found one statistic from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention that indicates 77% of rapes in Sweden are committed by Muslim men (no control for immigrants). Muslims (male and female) make up around 5% of the population according to that article.
Of course there's no control for income that I could find, either. So it's possible the vast majority of those Muslims are in severe poverty and there are virtually no poor people in Sweden outside of Muslim communities.

So when I asked the question 'is it logical to assume someone's culture would follow them acrossed borders' I wasn't being definitive but more so suggesting you can't write off the cultural element, specifically with regards to sexual crimes.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

+1

+69

I.B. Fine wrote:

DWags wrote:It has to be hard as hell following Trump around telling us what he really meant all the time.  Even harder when you have to constantly tell us what his aids or cabinet meant.  It would be nice to be able to walk away from a trump or spicer or Conway message and not have to have five interpreters tell us what they really meant.

Definitely a drawback of not always reading from a teleprompter.

So the fact Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush and Obama didn't need staff to walk back multiple statements after the election and the first 30 days in office were signs of weakness?

Only in Trumplandia.

By the way, where's the connie outrage about Presidential golf and expenses related to weekends away from the White House?

xsanguine wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:

Yes X, there is research that shows the correlation between socioeconomic status and crime rate. Regarding the studies on refugees and immigrants, considering there is no significant difference between first generation immigrants' crime rate and the general population, it's reasonable to think that their culture or religion are not making them more likely to commit crimes.

Given that these immigrants and refugees are disproportionately poor, it's also reasonable to think that their children would commit crimes at a rate higher than the general population (as many low socioeconomic status groups are prone to do).

I'm aware there are studies that make that correlation (there's also studies correlating IQ to crime and race to crime), I guess what I really meant by the question is in regards to where culture and law come to a confrontation. When Islam is brought up in this context it's centered around violence against women. This would be a huge cultural difference between the Middle East and Europe. I haven't heard many people suspect immigrants would be highly represented in cases of embezzlement or Ponzi schemes or counterfeiting. It generally centers on sexual violence due to the laws and behaviors we see in those host countries.
I'm unable to find much data, I found one statistic from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention that indicates 77% of rapes in Sweden are committed by Muslim men (no control for immigrants). Muslims (male and female) make up around 5% of the population according to that article.
Of course there's no control for income that I could find, either. So it's possible the vast majority of those Muslims are in severe poverty and there are virtually no poor people in Sweden outside of Muslim communities.

So when I asked the question 'is it logical to assume someone's culture would follow them acrossed borders' I wasn't being definitive but more so suggesting you can't write off the cultural element, specifically with regards to sexual crimes.

I would like to see the study you're referring to since Sweden's government specifically prevents their police from sharing ethnicity and religion in crime statistics. I don't know if they're trying to hide the problem (if it exists) until they can address it, or if they don't want statistics to be published and used as justification for hostility to immigrants.

To be honest, I see little value to host nations for accepting poor refugees and immigrants from anywhere. I just don't think we should be making those decisions based on religious prejudices.

AnomanderRake wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

I'm aware there are studies that make that correlation (there's also studies correlating IQ to crime and race to crime), I guess what I really meant by the question is in regards to where culture and law come to a confrontation. When Islam is brought up in this context it's centered around violence against women. This would be a huge cultural difference between the Middle East and Europe. I haven't heard many people suspect immigrants would be highly represented in cases of embezzlement or Ponzi schemes or counterfeiting. It generally centers on sexual violence due to the laws and behaviors we see in those host countries.
I'm unable to find much data, I found one statistic from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention that indicates 77% of rapes in Sweden are committed by Muslim men (no control for immigrants). Muslims (male and female) make up around 5% of the population according to that article.
Of course there's no control for income that I could find, either. So it's possible the vast majority of those Muslims are in severe poverty and there are virtually no poor people in Sweden outside of Muslim communities.

So when I asked the question 'is it logical to assume someone's culture would follow them acrossed borders' I wasn't being definitive but more so suggesting you can't write off the cultural element, specifically with regards to sexual crimes.

I would like to see the study you're referring to since Sweden's government specifically prevents their police from sharing ethnicity and religion in crime statistics. I don't know if they're trying to hide the problem (if it exists) until they can address it, or if they don't want statistics to be published and used as justification for hostility to immigrants.

To be honest, I see little value to host nations for accepting poor refugees and immigrants from anywhere. I just don't think we should be making those decisions based on religious prejudices.

I had to word my searches very specifically to pull that up and I haven't been able to replicate that search in the 10 minutes I just tried. I do remember reading several European countries (Sweden included) don't identify the offender so it's not a number I'm sticking with by any means. (And throughout writing the rest of this I've continued to try different ways of phrasing my search as I think of them to no avail). I've seen a couple of articles that make these assumptions based on where crimes occur and apparently are occurring in high immigrant percentage neighborhoods.
I'm not sure where these people are getting these numbers but I've also pulled up articles defending immigration that make mention that "immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics but that is due to poverty, etc." I'd find it weird that supporters of immigration are conceding the crime point if there were an argument to be made that immigrants due have a net zero effect on crime.
One number I did find peculiar while looking for these is that 70% of rape cases in Sweden are by unknown perpetrators (https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html). Doesn't that go against the norm as we see it here where most rapes are acquaintance rapes (http://www.911rape.org/facts-quotes/statistics)? I'm not sure what that has to do within our context but I found that to be interesting.

Let's roll with the socioeconomic argument for a moment. If the socioeconomic argument is the best explanation then is it fair to say you are intentionally bringing in a group of people whom while it's assumed a majority will be law abiding, it's guaranteed that large numbers of new criminals (a  small minority compared to law abiding immigrants) will also be brought in based on the fact that they are impoverished? Not to mention a competition for low skilled work. If we assume that that is the primary cause of crime and we're importing large numbers of poor people from countries whose culture doesn't jive, can you blame people for being nervous about being forced to accept those individuals into their neighborhoods and also paying for them through extortion?
The reason I get nervous about the socioeconomic explanation, and this ties in with several perceptions of what host nation's might get out of this, is the subtext ends up being "we need more taxes to give more financial support". So the government imports large numbers of people that stand a high chance of raising crime rates, creates competition for low skill work, and then also says you're going to pay for it all.... whether you like it or not. Europe is seeing the same problems with creating a welfare dependent class that we've seen (ghettos, assimilation problems).
I'm an open borders kind of guy... I don't think anyone should be able to tell you where to go or where to live. But I'm much more against forcing other people to pay for someone else's lifestyle along with all of the other complications. You can't do both and claim moral superiority.

As far as the reasons, I've seen several theories about what a host nation gets out of accepting large amounts of refugees (aside from humanitarian reasons).

There's the government enrichment angle; basically importing large numbers of people that need to be subsidized through a welfare state and through which more currency can be taken from the native citizens, a portion skimmed off the top, and then the rest redistributed. There is also the view that they could possibly gain a new voting class. Although this has the potential to backfire considering the cultural differences. In fact, when I search "benefits of accepting refugees", the first link (an op-ed) specifies a larger tax base as a benefit; http://www.borgenmagazine.com/the-benefits-of-accepting-syrian-refugees/.
The corporate angle; importing large numbers of refugees will drive down wages for entry level work which can be passed up (or down) and the savings experienced by the employer.
There's much more tin foil hat theories, too, but I think we can do without those. Or maybe Antineo can cover that part.  

I buy the argument that immigrants (outside of some radicalized elements) aren't contributing to any uptick in crime but I can understand and appreciate people wanting to preserve their communities in a way they're satisfied with. In our country immigrants, despite experiencing high poverty, aren't represented in the crime statistics anywhere near certain native born Americans who've always been severely over represented in crime statistics. But we also don't hide our statistics so this is why we know this. Completely different dynamic over there, too, so that may be totally irrelevant.

All in all, I don't have a mind to be changed. Especially with regards to America, I'm a fan of immigration... the welfare state complicates that view, but I'm not going to fault someone trying to get by for the faults of government lead extortion. If native citizens weren't forced to pay for the relocation of other peoples, it'd be very hard to be against letting someone from a war torn area move their family into your neighborhood because there is an incentive to assimilate as well as needing to be self-sufficient and/or rely on the voluntary goodwill of others. Obviously they're free to choose to live in a community that more represents their values, too.
I'm also a fan of culture, too, though. I was disappointed on my first trip to Ireland in 2003... went back to the hotel in Dublin to drop my shit off and then decided to walk around and the first thing I asked myself was...."Where are the Irish?" I was relieved to see the west side of the island still drunk on whiskey with angry, unintelligible micks (I'm Irish, I can say this) in the streets at 2am. I'd hate to see European countries lose their distinct cultural differences in a bid to socially engineer multi cultures.

GRR Spartan wrote:So the fact Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush and Obama didn't need staff to walk back multiple statements after the election and the first 30 days in office were signs of weakness?

Does it hurt to be wrong?

Same type of stories are out there about Bush II, Reagan and Clinton.

Obama’s Incompetence And Chaos Far Eclipsed What’s Coming From Team Trump

Martin Schultz Wants To Give Refugees The Right To Vote In German Election

(Article they're referring to; https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article162183536/Anhaenger-von-SPD-und-Gruenen-wollen-Auslaender-mitwaehlen-lassen.html)

This is related to my previous post to Rake.

#PrayForSweden #NeverForget

NigelUno wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:#PrayForSweden #NeverForget

I don't recall any of those Presidents that Goose mentioned having issues with a National Security Adviser to the extent that Trump did. Given his campaign and the emphasis on National Security, the chaos and incompetence regarding it is bigly incomparable.

in Goose's defense, he's been pretty busy insisting that terror attacks have taken place in Atlanta, Bowling Green and Sweden - so if you give him a few minutes....

OBAMA!!!

LooseGoose wrote:

GRR Spartan wrote:So the fact Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush and Obama didn't need staff to walk back multiple statements after the election and the first 30 days in office were signs of weakness?

Does it hurt to be wrong?

Same type of stories are out there about Bush II, Reagan and Clinton.

Obama’s Incompetence And Chaos Far Eclipsed What’s Coming From Team Trump

Every Presidency starts off a little rocky, but this opinion piece is a pretty desperate and poor attempt at drawing false equivalences to the current shit show that is the Trump Administration.

Another connie go to source gets smoked out again.

The connies here better get Nils Bildt, Swedish defense and national security advisor on their radar

Turns out Nils Bildt is from Sweden but he changed his name after emigrating from Sweden 14 years ago and he has no connection with the Swedish government.

Fake news of just another FoxNews err mistake?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/25/who-is-nils-bildt-swedish-national-security-advisor-interviewed-by-fox-news-is-a-mystery-to-swedes/?utm_term=.1986f16899ea

GRR Spartan wrote:Another connie go to source gets smoked out again.

The connies here better get Nils Bildt, Swedish defense and national security advisor on their radar

Turns out Nils Bildt is from Sweden but he changed his name after emigrating from Sweden 14 years ago and he has no connection with the Swedish government.

Fake news of just another FoxNews err mistake?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/25/who-is-nils-bildt-swedish-national-security-advisor-interviewed-by-fox-news-is-a-mystery-to-swedes/?utm_term=.1986f16899ea

I was thinking the world is going to get the impression of who we are here and what we're like by fax news.

DWags wrote:

GRR Spartan wrote:Another connie go to source gets smoked out again.

The connies here better get Nils Bildt, Swedish defense and national security advisor on their radar

Turns out Nils Bildt is from Sweden but he changed his name after emigrating from Sweden 14 years ago and he has no connection with the Swedish government.

Fake news of just another FoxNews err mistake?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/25/who-is-nils-bildt-swedish-national-security-advisor-interviewed-by-fox-news-is-a-mystery-to-swedes/?utm_term=.1986f16899ea

I was thinking the world is going to get the impression of who we are here and what we're like by fax news.

#PrayForSweden