So, how do we fix this? How do we have a program that won't go into the valley every so many years?

As a university, and as fans, and as alumni and as donors? To get a program where a "bad year" is 8-4 and every year or so we're hunting till late november for playoffs. How do we do that?

What do we do? Is it all just a lack of coaching. ( I hear our coaches are not going to as many summer football camps and h.s. things as they used to. Is this true? Are they getting old and tired and want to be with family more? Is it a lack of enthusiasm?) So is it all just coaching? Is it that simple, just fire coaches and bring new ones in?

Is it resources? Can we as fans help there? Will we? Does anybody think the university would green light a balls out money gift to football. Tell them to think of themselves as OSU or LSU or Bama, blank check what do you need. Won't happen in my life, after last years Nassar thing, it won't happen in some of you young bucks life. So, how do we join the arms race without the cooperation of the university green lighting some money? Is it possible?

Classes for athletes? Put them in tracks. Guys like Willikes who is human biology or the bullough's who were always studious or Willis, or any nuymber of players who can handle and use the college for education, let them go, but the rest, have an athletic major and keep them eligible. Would that ever happen at MSU?

I don't know, what's the answer? TOB just thinks it's as simple as firing coaches. Is it? Even with enthusiastic hard working coaches, do we have the facilities and ability to recruit enough kids to help us when we have 7 or 8 key injuries?

I've given up on the dream myself. 20-25 years tops left on earth here. I love the occasional 10-2 Conference championship season, so I can stomach off years because I know it's inevitable. Grand scheme of things, college sports aren't important, but meeting with friends, having a good time, enjoying their company is also more fun when we're winning on Saturdays.

I just don't think in the state we're in, that its' as simple as changing out coaches. It might help and maybe i'm dead ass wrong. But We'ree looking at a 7 victory season tops here, maybe 6-6. Never thought that was on the horizon. So, what's the answer?

It's not really an issue I don't think. MSU football is what it is, and we'll be lucky for it to remain what it is post Coach D.

Firing coaches is the moron's solution. I'm not saying they're all great. But when that's anyone's default solution, tune them out.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:It's not really an issue I don't think. MSU football is what it is, and we'll be lucky for it to remain what it is post Coach D.

Firing coaches is the moron's solution. I'm not saying they're all great. But when that's anyone's default solution, tune them out.

If that was the best way, Iowa wouldn't be who they are today. Two 10+ seasons in the last 13 and Ferentz is coach for life.

WBH, I'm with you. I've resigned myself to these seasons, and frankly, sitting with friends at tailgates is way more entertaining than any football game I've been into on most Saturdays. Sure, the hail mary, the little giants, Smoker to TJ, we can give ancedotal stories, but mostly, I'm bored at games. Of the three hours, maybe I enjoy 15 minutes of action. So, I get it. MSU is what it is. And yeah, I also think you're right, the perfect storm happened with Dantonio, perfect coach, at the perfect time. No frills, he'll do without, he'll recruit the cousins of the world and be a boyscout and we landed the right guy at the right time and I don't think we'll ever do better. But that's me and you. What I'm asking is can we do better? How do you fix this stuff so 8-4 is a bad year. How do you get to OSU level? Can you do it if the BOT isn't on board? If the alumni aren't? Is it possible to turn an MSU into an OSU? Or, is it impossible because of all the outside influences plus history?

DWags wrote:WBH, I'm with you. I've resigned myself to these seasons, and frankly, sitting with friends at tailgates is way more entertaining than any football game I've been into on most Saturdays.  Sure, the hail mary, the little giants, Smoker to TJ, we can give ancedotal stories, but mostly, I'm  bored at games.  Of the three hours, maybe I enjoy 15 minutes of action.  So, I get it.   MSU is what it is.   And yeah, I also think you're right, the perfect storm happened with Dantonio, perfect coach, at the perfect time.  No frills, he'll do without, he'll recruit the cousins of the world and be a boyscout and we landed the right guy at the right time and I don't think we'll ever do better.   But that's me and you.  What I'm asking is can we do better? How do you fix this stuff so 8-4 is a bad year.  How do you get to OSU level?  Can you do it if the BOT isn't on board?  If the alumni aren't?   Is it possible to turn an MSU into an OSU?   Or, is it impossible because of all the outside influences plus history?  

That is all I've ever wanted. Be consistent enough so that 8-4 is the low water mark. I don't have any answers. Whatever it takes without cheating and being the under microscope.

It is impossible. We do not have the resources, which starts with the brand and the fanbase. We've elevated our brand tremendously over the past 15 years. But we will never ever get to OSU level, or Michigan level, or SEC level. 

Any attempts to elevate in that direction would be foolhardy and rely on dirty tactics. Which might be fine with some if they worked, but they won't work, because we're not going to gain that footing and traction with fans and media across the country at MSU. Ever.

The Fire Soandso people crack me up anyway. 

Do they really think it will change anything? Like we're going to bring in some hot young coaching commodity from the West Coast and he's going to change MSU football's entire identity and philosophy? I mean if this is what you want, you want Coach D gone because you're not changing Coach D's identity and philosophy. 

I remember when everything was "Nardawg"s fault. And Roushar's fault. And in 2013 at the beginning of the year when no one could catch a pass it was Samuel's fault. Yes, those things all happened, I remember them very clearly. Now it's Warner's turn. 

Fix the OL, save the world.

Wbh do you not respond on rivals and just passively aggressive post about them here? I think there’s like 1-2 posters here that have actually called for firings.

This is the best we are going to get. Impossible to reach the levels we desire unless we have 3 more Dantonios come along after this one hangs it up. If we would have that much success the rest would take care of itself but we are back to mediocre after coach d leaves.

Shit, i don’t even think we will be a power in hoops after izzo leaves. Sorry kids.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Wbh do you not respond on rivals and just passively aggressive post about them here? I think there’s like 1-2 posters here that have actually called for firings.

No, I respond sometimes. I don't post as much over there because there are a ton of mouth breathers, but sometimes I can't help it. 

It's not just here (or there) dude. It's everywhere. Guys in my golf league, dude at the fire station open house where I was helping sell popcorn for cub scouts, fans on Twitter, as Wags said, the other board that I don't go to anymore. Pretty sure my Dad has even said they need to fire the OC.

I think the frustrating part is having a good to great defense most years, but an average to mediocre offense. An average offense and a great D will get us 10+ wins a year. A good D, but mediocre offense will get us 6-6 or worse.
I thought what Coach D did when he first got to MSU was work with what he had. Take the talent around him and mold the offense to work within itself. Somewhere along the way that seems to have gotten lost.
Why can every team run that stupid play where 3 WR line up to the outside, they block and hold the defenders and the RB or another WR run for a 10-15 yard gain. When we try that same play, we run for a 5 yard loss.
It feels like the offense is a square peg trying to fit into a circular hole.
I thought I hit send on this post about 30 minutes ago.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Wbh do you not respond on rivals and just passively aggressive post about them here? I think there’s like 1-2 posters here that have actually called for firings.

This is the best we are going to get. Impossible to reach the levels we desire unless we have 3 more Dantonios come along after this one hangs it up. If we would have that much success the rest would take care of itself but we are back to mediocre after coach d leaves.

Shit, i don’t even think we will be a power in hoops after izzo leaves. Sorry kids.

You're gonna make a great cranky old man OTPT.

On my kids, I thought that about him a long time ago. But he's not the the type that would yell "get off my lawn", he'd go out with a bowl and yell at the kids "Do you think I give an actual fuck you fuckers are on my lawn?"

starting being a bama fan

There's nothing major to fix. The key is to be on top of the maintenance so we won't have to ever completely fix anything. And don't expect a Buick to perform like a BMW. We'll never be a BMW. Accept it and enjoy the newly redesigned Buick that people sometimes mistake for a BMW after a few glasses of wine.

By-Tor wrote:There's nothing major to fix.    The key is to be on top of the maintenance so we won't have to ever completely fix anything.    And don't expect a Buick to perform like a BMW.  We'll never be a BMW.  Accept it and enjoy the newly redesigned Buick that people sometimes mistake for a BMW after a few glasses of wine.

This post is chock full of metaphors and I like it.

Coach D just basically said he's not changing during his weekly presser. The goal is to run the ball 40 times a game and they will find a way. He's hands off on the staff and will empower them.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

By-Tor wrote:There's nothing major to fix.    The key is to be on top of the maintenance so we won't have to ever completely fix anything.    And don't expect a Buick to perform like a BMW.  We'll never be a BMW.  Accept it and enjoy the newly redesigned Buick that people sometimes mistake for a BMW after a few glasses of wine.

This post is chock full of metaphors and I like it.

Maybe some of this will fix the offense.

Floyd Robertson wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

This post is chock full of metaphors and I like it.

Maybe some of this will fix the offense.

That was a selling point back in the 50's?

Too bad Goose isn't around any more to explain this one.

Quote seems to have gone away on mobile. But that’s pretty disappointing to hear - izzo and coach d are stubborn as hell. Coach to their system, not to their players or the cards they were dealt. There’s a factor that plays into this ceiling discussion. Stubborn coaches.

(Which does not mean we should fire them wbh)

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Quote seems to have gone away on mobile. But that’s pretty disappointing to hear - izzo and coach d are stubborn as hell. Coach to their system, not to their players or the cards they were dealt. There’s a factor that plays into this ceiling discussion. Stubborn coaches.

I disagree. Dantonio is a rock and is practically the perfect college coach. He is a lot like Nick Saban in temperment. Saban had some early success and is able to recruit based on his reputation. Dantonio has had less success because of where he is, not because of stubbornness. Once you have a coach like MD, you never let him go. If he needs to make changes in the staff, he will, but it's about the players and always will be. Plenty of coaches can fuck up with a lot of talent, but very few can be consistent with marginal talent. Dantonio is, and when he gets a good crop of kids, he almost always hits it out of the park.

Back to the OP: I don’t like hearing the staff is showing up at fewer of these HS events. That always builds relationships and we’re a school that will always need a leg up on the bigger name schools.
As for Dantonio, yeah, it gets frustrating, but he won’t want to coach for very many more seasons, and it won’t get better after MD retires. As others have said, it’s more than likely going to drop off, back to mediocrity.

Roc you kinda helped my point. Coaches like Saban don’t need to adapt or evolve when they are getting 5 stars and the best of the best in high school at every position. We don’t have that same luxury so i wish we would change our style a bit when we can’t run the ball 30 times.

I said in the other thread, we will never be Ohio State, Alabama, Notre Dame, etc. It cannot and will not happen in our lifetimes.  Accept that fact.  

If you truly look at the very top tier of football programs each has certain inherent advantages that make them unique and position them for success.  

What we as MSU fans must accept and cannot change:

We play in the Big Ten.  In general a huge advantage.  In some ways not as advantageous as the SEC.  We play in the Big Ten East the more difficult division of a very lopsided conference.

We are located in a cold weather state.

We are not the most popular university in our own state.  Ideally, you should be the only major university in your state and certainly its top football program.  This has a significant impact on the type of media coverage we receive.  

Michigan has, at best, average high school football programs.  Objectively it is probably below average.  It is not certainly not Texas or Ohio or California.

Considering these facts how does MSU win 10+ games a season?  

I hate people who like to bitch but never offer a possible solution (plus I am a pretty smart guy) so here are my thoughts:

It starts with the right head coach.  First, you need a head coach who truly wants to be at your school and wants to win football games.  As a school you need to be loyal to that coach, because loyalty is a two way street.  This is not an indictment of Dantonio.  We would be hard pressed to find a better head coach.

That coach needs to find assistants who can recruit - but more than anything who are good at evaluating talent.  Our assistants coaches are our scouting department.  This is where a team like MSU can have success.  Find kids who are Big Ten talent without Big Ten offers.  Find the next Conklin, Dennard, Willekes, Cousins and every single MAC player who ends up in the NFL.  Kids who both deserve and would jump at an MSU offer.  (As a side point - you bitch about Warner's play calling all you want the man can recognize talent).

Once you find the talent you need assistant coaches who can develop the talent.  True teachers of the game and of a position.  No one person is great at everything so you need a mix of assistants who can do both in varying degrees.

We also need to begin to repair and enhance our relationship with the media.  It is hard and takes a more subtle understanding of nuances, but it can be done.  In a nutshell - we need better press.  We need an AD, University President and a Sports Information Department that understands this.

tGreenWay wrote:Back to the OP: I don’t like hearing the staff is showing up at fewer of these HS events. That always builds relationships and we’re a school that will always need a leg up on the bigger name schools.
As for Dantonio, yeah, it gets frustrating, but he won’t want to coach for very many more seasons, and it won’t get better after MD retires. As others have said, it’s more than likely going to drop off, back to mediocrity.

Yeah, Rah Rah coaches like Fleck and to a lesser extent, Narduzzi aren't my pick for long-term success at the college level. You need somebody like Dantonio, Barry Alvarez, Tom Osborne, Ferentz (sort of), and Saban. I really don't think of Saban as a genius, just opportunistic and lucky, then smart enough to ride his luck to long term success.

DWags wrote:Of the three hours, maybe I enjoy 15 minutes of action.

That's probably because there are only about 15 minutes of action in football game where the ball is live. Not even that much sometimes.

Yeah, i guess I meant 15 plays.

I think the only way MSU becomes a machine is if Michigan's high schools turn out kids like florida, ohio, texas... There are only so many kids that can play at this level. If you assume the home state schools have a recruiting advantage due to proximity, you would be lucky to pick off a couple a year out of them....
Hell, look at the JD Duplain situation. The ONLY way we can get Midwest kids the caliber we need is to hope OSU doesn't want them and we hustle to beat out ND and UM...
So if it comes down to depth and 'crootin... we are what we are. Let the chips fall where they may and enjoy the crap out of the good years...
OR Somehow get Michigan to turn out the D1 prospects like ohio and florida do...

We need SEC level bagmen.

There has to be a line or a bar set. Competing for conference championships should be an expectation, and it is attainable (and makes money). I've generally supported the coaches, but the product at this point is amazingly lame.

MD may become a Duffy or Joe PA if the University let's it happen. The only bright side is change will come after a lot of heartaches because you don't can the winningest coach in MSU history (he will be).

I also think all those returning starters has been a curse this season. The o-line is generally something built over time, meaning it takes more time to develop. With the injuries, those back-ups are under-developed, and MSU doesn't have 4 stars sitting on the bench.

Lewerke has been bad too. Smoker bad.

During our years in the wilderness during the Bobby and JLS areas, we could look to Iowa and Wisconsin as inspiration for what can be done even if you're not OSU, UM, or PSU. They aren't recruiting powerhouses and probably have less natural recruiting advantages than MSU.

Well, in the last decade, I think we've unquestionably surpassed Iowa, and all in all are pretty close to Wisconsin. Not quite as consistent as Wisconsin, but maybe that's because they've been at this (the current Wisconsin mold) for more than 20 years, and we've only been at it for half that. Their down years (7 wins or lower) still happen occasionally, but are less frequent than they were in the early 00s. They didn't build consistency by being drawn to the lure of whatever is new and shiny in the college football world. They built it by embracing the identity that they were build on, and believing in that.

MiamiSpartan wrote:During our years in the wilderness during the Bobby and JLS areas, we could look to Iowa and Wisconsin as inspiration for what can be done even if you're not OSU, UM, or PSU. They aren't recruiting powerhouses and probably have less natural recruiting advantages than MSU.

Well, in the last decade, I think we've unquestionably surpassed Iowa, and all in all are pretty close to Wisconsin. Not quite as consistent as Wisconsin, but maybe that's because they've been at this (the current Wisconsin mold) for more than 20 years, and we've only been at it for half that. Their down years (7 wins or lower) still happen occasionally, but are less frequent than they were in the early 00s. They didn't build consistency by being drawn to the lure of whatever is new and shiny in the college football world. They built it by embracing the identity that they were build on, and believing in that.

Again, I would point out both are the top programs in their state.

I believe Wisconsin is the only Division 1 OR 2 program in the state. They have a decent population base and no competition. I think there are believe 5 D1 and 5 D2 teams in Michigan.

Iowa shares the state with ISU, but ISU is second fiddle.

MSU addict wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:During our years in the wilderness during the Bobby and JLS areas, we could look to Iowa and Wisconsin as inspiration for what can be done even if you're not OSU, UM, or PSU. They aren't recruiting powerhouses and probably have less natural recruiting advantages than MSU.

Well, in the last decade, I think we've unquestionably surpassed Iowa, and all in all are pretty close to Wisconsin. Not quite as consistent as Wisconsin, but maybe that's because they've been at this (the current Wisconsin mold) for more than 20 years, and we've only been at it for half that. Their down years (7 wins or lower) still happen occasionally, but are less frequent than they were in the early 00s. They didn't build consistency by being drawn to the lure of whatever is new and shiny in the college football world. They built it by embracing the identity that they were build on, and believing in that.

Again, I would point out both are the top programs in their state.

I believe Wisconsin is the only Division 1 OR 2 program in the state. They have a decent population base and no competition. I think there are believe 5 D1 and 5 D2 teams in Michigan.

Iowa shares the state with ISU, but ISU is second fiddle.

That's true, but Michigan has a lot more talent than either Iowa or Wisconsin (certainly more than Iowa). And I believe MSU is fairly even with UM in-state. I could be wrong, I don't follow recruiting that closely, but it's not at all uncommon for us to beat UM for in-state kids like it used to be. And MSU is stronger in Ohio than Iowa or Wisconsin.

However, I think that what being the big dog in their respective states does give them is a bigger fanbase, which is a recruiting advantage that they have over MSU.

I have the same opinion for our football and basketball program. I love the era of grind it out and win with defense but those days are gone. Basketball and football are about putting up points on the board in 2018. Both coaches play very conservative and have old fashioned offenses. On the other hand both have done so much for MSU I’m of the state of mind these days to just accept it Go Green!

pulling69 wrote:We need SEC level bagmen.

We need some of these "Special Assistants".

W.O.P., you know that's tGreenway.

DWags wrote:W.O.P., you know that's tGreenway.  

Mods, please hand out a lifetime ban to DWags for repeatedly outing me on this board, and prolly others, too.