Here's the only thing Democrats need to do to win all the time.

Abandon women's reproductive rights as an issue. It's a numbers game. Let's visit some issues and where the ideological divide is:

Roe v. Wade: Democrats claim that supporting women's access to an abortion is standing with women and any other position is anti-woman and should lead to women voting Democrat. In reality, the split is only about 60-40 among women when the question is "should abortion be legal in most casts or illegal in most cases". It's closer to 50-50 with men. More importantly, the clusters of people who believe abortion should mostly be illegal are in states that Democrats need to win back the government. ND, MI, OH, MN, FL, NC, NV, IN, WS, etc.... These are voting blocks that may agree mostly with Democrats ideologically, if it weren't for the abortion issue. Republicans know this.

Judge Kavanaugh: Heidi Heitkamp will probably lose her senate seat in ND because she voted against Kavanaugh. Not because people really like the guy, but because people in key constituencies are so in support of a supreme court that will uphold laws limiting abortion rights.

Trump: AGAIN, Christians know that Trump does not reflect Christian values. They know that he is not a good person. For them, he is a means to an and, and they will look past all of the terrible shit he does because he will put judges on the court that they believe will limit abortion rights, or at least uphold state's rights to limit abortion rights.

As I've said before, there are more progressive leaning than conservative leaning people in the country, but they are concentrated in cities and the system is set up to give disproportionate power to rural white voters. The Democrats could have the majority of them if they gave up the abortion fight. Concentrate on nonprofits getting women who want or need an abortion and are in restrictive states to places where they can get them. Instead of using funds to fight in court, use them to support women, then win the purple voters back, then change the law.

It's a long game.

I've long said that republicans don't want to get rid of abortion..

a) how will they get abortions for their girlfriends and daughters if they do..?

and..

b) they know the main reason knuckle-draggin' jesus freaks vote for them is to protect the unborn (white) children.

so they're perfectly fine with using it as an issue every election year. In fact, the only time they don't have contempt for human life is when they're talking about saving the (white) babies.

I believe that your rank and file republican leaning voter is actually anti abortion, Bob, whether or not the ruling class is.

Rocinante wrote:I believe that your rank and file republican leaning voter is actually anti abortion, Bob, whether or not the ruling class is.

knuckle-draggers are gonna knuckle-drag.

I think a majority of America is "pro-choice" - right?

I think the Democrats would do well by drawing the contrast between the jesus freak's insistence that they're "pro life" when they're absolutely anything but "pro life".

then illustrate how they cheer for school shootings where children are murdered.. same with mass shootings -  they want to take away healthcare from millions of Americans.. (not exactly "pro life" when you can't afford cancer treatment) - they have no problem when unarmed black kids are murdered by cops.... Republicans demonize/defund education which leads to low-wage jobs, i.e. no healthcare = low quality of life, early onset of disease, premature deaths in Americans simply because they don't have access to the same healthcare their neighbors do.

of course that would require the Democrats to grow a spine and stand up to the GOP and mainstream media - which they're not going to do.

Until then, they (Democrats) deserve to lose.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Rocinante wrote:I believe that your rank and file republican leaning voter is actually anti abortion, Bob, whether or not the ruling class is.

knuckle-draggers are gonna knuckle-drag.

I think a majority of America is "pro-choice" - right?

I think the Democrats would do well by drawing the contrast between the jesus freak's insistence that they're "pro life" when they're absolutely anything but "pro life".

then illustrate how they cheer for school shootings where children are murdered.. same with mass shootings -  they want to take away healthcare from millions of Americans.. (not exactly "pro life" when you can't afford cancer treatment) - they have no problem when unarmed black kids are murdered by cops.... Republicans demonize/defund education which leads to low-wage jobs, i.e. no healthcare = low quality of life, early onset of disease, premature deaths in Americans simply because they don't have access to the same healthcare their neighbors do.

of course that would require the Democrats to grow a spine and stand up to the GOP and mainstream media - which they're not going to do.

Until then, they (Democrats) deserve to lose.

It's been tried. It doesn't work. That's a bad strategy.

Rocinante wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
knuckle-draggers are gonna knuckle-drag.

I think a majority of America is "pro-choice" - right?

I think the Democrats would do well by drawing the contrast between the jesus freak's insistence that they're "pro life" when they're absolutely anything but "pro life".

then illustrate how they cheer for school shootings where children are murdered.. same with mass shootings -  they want to take away healthcare from millions of Americans.. (not exactly "pro life" when you can't afford cancer treatment) - they have no problem when unarmed black kids are murdered by cops.... Republicans demonize/defund education which leads to low-wage jobs, i.e. no healthcare = low quality of life, early onset of disease, premature deaths in Americans simply because they don't have access to the same healthcare their neighbors do.

of course that would require the Democrats to grow a spine and stand up to the GOP and mainstream media - which they're not going to do.

Until then, they (Democrats) deserve to lose.

It's been tried. It doesn't work. That's a bad strategy.

America is a stupid country.

For the swill record, which is very important, Heitkamp was down 10 points before she voted against the creepy rich kid. She was probably going to lose no matter what she did.

But anyway, I guess I’d say that in some kind of board game where you could like add and subtract policy positions at will and it’s all taken in good faith, you’d probably be right. But that’s not really how it would play out. First of all, I’m not sure exactly what you’d want the individual democratic politician to do about that issue when asked about it. Are they anti abortion suddenly now? How do they answer for flip flopping? Do they just duck it? How are they supposed to handle that? And no matter how they handle it, isn’t Fox News just going to keep calling them a baby murderer regardless? So you’d alienate some amount of people on your side, which would need to be offset by gains somewhere else, but the other side still thinks you’re an evil heathen because they only listen to hannity. 

I wonder if there might be a way to change around the messaging on this topic a little bit that might be worth thinking about. Instead of allowing the other side to engage you in constantly litigating this same issue over and over maybe they should just spend a little more time pointing out “look, we’re not looking to do anything here. Just keep it the same. Is everything fine? Everything’s fine. Cool. Just leave it alone.” Obviously zealots like our up north friend are going to say “what about the 7,000,000,000,000 babies murdered last month? It’s not fine for them” but they are never gonna vote for you no matter what.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:For the swill record, which is very important, Heitkamp was down 10 points before she voted against the creepy rich kid. She was probably going to lose no matter what she did.

But anyway, I guess I’d say that in some kind of board game where you could like add and subtract policy positions at will and it’s all taken in good faith, you’d probably be right. But that’s not really how it would play out. First of all, I’m not sure exactly what you’d want the individual democratic politician to do about that issue when asked about it. Are they anti abortion suddenly now? How do they answer for flip flopping? Do they just duck it? How are they supposed to handle that? And no matter how they handle it, isn’t Fox News just going to keep calling them a baby murderer regardless? So you’d alienate some amount of people on your side, which would need to be offset by gains somewhere else, but the other side still thinks you’re an evil heathen because they only listen to hannity. 

I wonder if there might be a way to change around the messaging on this topic a little bit that might be worth thinking about. Instead of allowing the other side to engage you in constantly litigating this same issue over and over maybe they should just spend a little more time pointing out “look, we’re not looking to do anything here. Just keep it the same. Is everything fine? Everything’s fine. Cool. Just leave it alone.” Obviously zealots like our up north friend are going to say “what about the 7,000,000,000,000 babies murdered last month? It’s not fine for them” but they are never gonna vote for you no matter what.

It feels like you talked yourself into agreeing with me there...

Rocinante wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:For the swill record, which is very important, Heitkamp was down 10 points before she voted against the creepy rich kid. She was probably going to lose no matter what she did.

But anyway, I guess I’d say that in some kind of board game where you could like add and subtract policy positions at will and it’s all taken in good faith, you’d probably be right. But that’s not really how it would play out. First of all, I’m not sure exactly what you’d want the individual democratic politician to do about that issue when asked about it. Are they anti abortion suddenly now? How do they answer for flip flopping? Do they just duck it? How are they supposed to handle that? And no matter how they handle it, isn’t Fox News just going to keep calling them a baby murderer regardless? So you’d alienate some amount of people on your side, which would need to be offset by gains somewhere else, but the other side still thinks you’re an evil heathen because they only listen to hannity. 

I wonder if there might be a way to change around the messaging on this topic a little bit that might be worth thinking about. Instead of allowing the other side to engage you in constantly litigating this same issue over and over maybe they should just spend a little more time pointing out “look, we’re not looking to do anything here. Just keep it the same. Is everything fine? Everything’s fine. Cool. Just leave it alone.” Obviously zealots like our up north friend are going to say “what about the 7,000,000,000,000 babies murdered last month? It’s not fine for them” but they are never gonna vote for you no matter what.

It feels like you talked yourself into agreeing with me there...

I didn’t really disagree in the first place.... but the question still stands of how exactly that all would play out in real world terms.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Rocinante wrote:

It feels like you talked yourself into agreeing with me there...

I didn’t really disagree in the first place.... but the question still stands of how exactly that all would play out in real world terms.

As bob says. People are stupid. They'll believe anything.

Anyway, it's not like Democrats have to suddenly be "pro life" they just have to say that fighting that battle is not one of their priorities anymore. Blue state dems just talk about it less (because their constituencies are set in stone), and red and purple state democrats stop talking about it altogether. States like MS which have ONE clinic in the whole goddamn state and are economically depressed are ripe for democrat takeover on economic and labor issues. Abortion kills them every time. Democrats are going to vote democrat. As you know, that shit ass rural white voter needs to vote Democrat as well or there will always be a legislature that doesn't reflect the country. Dems have to get that abortion albatross of them. Just admit defeat and move on (ostensibly).

Rocinante wrote:Anyway, it's not like Democrats have to suddenly be "pro life" they just have to say that fighting that battle is not one of their priorities anymore. Blue state dems just talk about it less (because their constituencies are set in stone), and red and purple state democrats stop talking about it altogether. States like MS which have ONE clinic in the whole goddamn state and are economically depressed are ripe for democrat takeover on economic and labor issues. Abortion kills them every time. Democrats are going to vote democrat. As you know, that shit ass rural white voter needs to vote Democrat as well or there will always be a legislature that doesn't reflect the country. Dems have to get that abortion albatross of them. Just admit defeat and move on (ostensibly).

I think Democrats needs to appeal to christians by bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, mocking disabled people and calling white supremacists "fine people".

SC just upheld a ruling that will make it a lot harder for North Dakotans to vote.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1049781571279044610

I see the ops point but disagree. Apathy is the #1 issue with the left. They don’t turn out to the polls.

steveschneider wrote:SC just upheld a ruling that will make it a lot harder for North Dakotans to vote.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1049781571279044610

Aren't there only like two people living in North Dakota?

Jake from State Farm wrote:

steveschneider wrote:SC just upheld a ruling that will make it a lot harder for North Dakotans to vote.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1049781571279044610

Aren't there only like two people living in North Dakota?

And yet they both get a vote in the senate