Testy Joe

tGreenWay wrote:And Cameron, if Harris is the Dems nominee in ‘24 and you sit on your hands, shame on you. Withholding votes as a means of protest is a large part of the reason why we got into the messes created by Trump that we’ll be trying to correct for years. And in the case of the SCOTUS, for decades.

Meh. If the Democrats are dumb enough to run Kamala, and she loses to whomever the Republicans run, I will be totally at peace with my decision. The DNC thinks they can just run whomever they like, and all decent people are obligated to vote for them because the alternative is the fucking Republicans. I'm not rewarding that type of political malpractice ever again (was bad enough doing it for Biden), and I would feel quite confident in my belief that blame lay 100% on the DNC for putting up shitty candidates, and not on the electorate who was too fed up to just grin and bear it.

Cameron wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:And Cameron, if Harris is the Dems nominee in ‘24 and you sit on your hands, shame on you. Withholding votes as a means of protest is a large part of the reason why we got into the messes created by Trump that we’ll be trying to correct for years. And in the case of the SCOTUS, for decades.

Meh. If the Democrats are dumb enough to run Kamala, and she loses to whomever the Republicans run, I will be totally at peace with my decision. The DNC thinks they can just run whomever they like, and all decent people are obligated to vote for them because the alternative is the fucking Republicans. I'm not rewarding that type of political malpractice ever again (was bad enough doing it for Biden), and I would feel quite confident in my belief that blame lay 100% on the DNC for putting up shitty candidates, and not on the electorate who was too fed up to just grin and bear it.

You'll never advance your agenda with that line of thinking.

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:

Meh. If the Democrats are dumb enough to run Kamala, and she loses to whomever the Republicans run, I will be totally at peace with my decision. The DNC thinks they can just run whomever they like, and all decent people are obligated to vote for them because the alternative is the fucking Republicans. I'm not rewarding that type of political malpractice ever again (was bad enough doing it for Biden), and I would feel quite confident in my belief that blame lay 100% on the DNC for putting up shitty candidates, and not on the electorate who was too fed up to just grin and bear it.

You'll never advance your agenda with that line of thinking.

Voting for Kamala doesn't advance my agenda either.

MiamiSpartan wrote:Steve, thanks for posting that.  I mean it.

But with all due respect, it just shows that you way over-exaggerated in your original assertion.  A couple of lines about the pen 3-quarters of the way through an article is "making a big stink"?  That's the least stink that was made in the whole article.

Also, the thing about complaining that people weren't prepared for a meeting.  You failed to note that that was in the context of the dates of those meetings being moved up significantly.  

Is it so hard to provide context?  Or you just wanted to make something innocuous sound like a big deal because a media outlet had the gall to write an unflattering article about one of your heroes.

As I've stated, I absolutely agree that men are not, but should be, held to the same standard on these kinds of things.  But do you think these opinions by ex-staffers should be covered up by the media?

You are very welcome and I honestly didn't know the first link was unreadable. I thought they'd allow a few free ones.

Regarding the rest of your post I respectfully disagree and that's okay. Happy to have a spirited discussion about this. I thought the whole pen thing was ridiculous...one of my first jobs out of college I was temping until I found something permanent and I did office management stuff. It was very common that people had specific pens they wanted.

Also, the line I was reacting to mostly this line:

"But others described Harris as unpredictable and at times demeaning to her staff over the years. She often hung up on her aides, berated them when she didn't think they were prepared enough for briefings, and had a reputation for churning through interns and lower-level staff, people told Insider."

To me that line made it sound like she that was the norm that she would berate staff for being unprepared and the other was an example of a specific time. The article outlines how she over prepares. Every job I've had I'm expected to be prepared. It just seems like a huge eyeroll gripe to me.

Regarding your last points, I in large part agree but just feel that sexism is baked in to everything. Veering off course and just spit balling out an example here but how many articles did we see about Hillary ran a bad campaign and it was a blunder she didn't visit Wisconsin? How many have we seen about what a blunder that Trump lost Georgia or Arizona and all his blunders that cost him those GOP/red states?

I will note I'm much happier having a productive level of discourse.

Cameron wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

You'll never advance your agenda with that line of thinking.

Voting for Kamala doesn't advance my agenda either.

There's value in going on defense and blocking the other party from taking power. Also, Biden has to be closer to your beliefs than the last four years.

https://news.yahoo.com/can-bidens-child-tax-credit-really-cut-child-poverty-in-half-140356219.html

Cameron wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

You'll never advance your agenda with that line of thinking.

Voting for Kamala doesn't advance my agenda either.

All you need to do cam is vote for do nothing centrists for the next 10-12 most important elections of all time then we will consider progressive ideas just in time for you to die

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:

Voting for Kamala doesn't advance my agenda either.

There's value in going on defense and blocking the other party from taking power. Also, Biden has to be closer to your beliefs than the last four years.

https://news.yahoo.com/can-bidens-child-tax-credit-really-cut-child-poverty-in-half-140356219.html

There's also value in letting the Democrats take it on the chin so that they learn to suck less.

God forbid progressives put in the work from the inside.

steveschneider wrote:
Regarding your last points, I in large part agree but just feel that sexism is baked in to everything. Veering off course and just spit balling out an example here but how many articles did we see about Hillary ran a bad campaign and it was a blunder she didn't visit Wisconsin? How many have we seen about what a blunder that Trump lost Georgia or Arizona and all his blunders that cost him those GOP/red states?

It was a huge blunder for Hillary to take Wisconsin (and to a lesser extent Michigan and Pennsylvania) for granted. Saying that has zero to do with her being a woman. It was all part of the, "How could this idiot get elected?" discussion.

There has been plenty of talk about Trump's blunder in his handling/ignoring of the pandemic. Anything he did or didnt do in Georgia and Arizona pales in comparison to that. Besides, it should be the right wing media's looking at what "their guy" did wrong and how to avoid that next time. But if they can't say that he lost in the first place, for fear of backlash, they can't talk about why he lost.

Just hand it to me. I'm entitled to it. Pitching my ideas, politics, and policies is to much work. Why should I have to convince people to vote for me? I should be able to take over, get my way, and enact my policies because I say so. If not, I quit.

Just hand it to me. I'm entitled to it. Pitching my ideas, politics, and policies is to much work. Why should I have to convince people to vote for me? I should be able to take over, get my way, and enact my policies because I say so. If not, it’s all your fault that I didn’t win.

Whoa that’s crazy because we made the exact same post except I was talking about the way you are talking to Cameron and you are talking about something else what are the odds

In other words, Kamela, or whatever other centrist Democrat, is not entitled to Cameron’s vote either. And they should consider working for it instead of auto assuming that he’ll just vote for them because the other side is worse.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

steveschneider wrote:
Regarding your last points, I in large part agree but just feel that sexism is baked in to everything. Veering off course and just spit balling out an example here but how many articles did we see about Hillary ran a bad campaign and it was a blunder she didn't visit Wisconsin? How many have we seen about what a blunder that Trump lost Georgia or Arizona and all his blunders that cost him those GOP/red states?

It was a huge blunder for Hillary to take Wisconsin (and to a lesser extent Michigan and Pennsylvania) for granted. Saying that has zero to do with her being a woman. It was all part of the, "How could this idiot get elected?" discussion.

There has been plenty of talk about Trump's blunder in his handling/ignoring of the pandemic. Anything he did or didnt do in Georgia and Arizona pales in comparison to that. Besides, it should be the right wing media's looking at what "their guy" did wrong and how to avoid that next time. But if they can't say that he lost in the first place, for fear of backlash, they can't talk about why he lost.

I just googled Hillary Wisconsin and Trump Arizona. The Hillary search returned article after article outlining her campaign blunders.

Did the same for Trump Arizona, I did a few spot checks on the articles I could find that seemed to offer up some kind of analysis about his defeat. The one for Trump that turned up from Fox mentions that elderly white voters were split and latino voters over overwhelmingly went for Biden. Can't find any where near the same coverage going over what a stupid campaign he ran or how his blunders (too many to count) cost him.

I'm sure there's an article out there but I'm not finding it after a quick search.

The far left

Have fun voting for Jill Stein or Howie Hawkins.

steveschneider wrote:The far left

Have fun voting for Jill Stein or Howie Hawkins.

Have fun with trump as President because you’re too stupid to realize that you need cam.

Honestly you guys are so bad at this that you made me go from “eh I dunno about all that cam” last night to “yeah cam is right” just from how stupid and arrogant your replies are.

There is no reason, literally no reason at all whatsoever in any world, why a progressive should say “yeah I’m gonna go ahead and vote for the democrat no matter what” 3 years before the election. You want to talk about doing the work to effect change? Sure, let’s talk about that. Step 1 is definitely NOT telling them “yeah I’m gonna vote for you no matter what bullshit I hate you cram down my throat thank you sir yes allow me to eat shit. Now let’s please talk about how I don’t like you. Oh, no we can’t talk about that? Yes sir.”

You can always tell when Travis has no real response. He starts calling people stupid. But hey, the entitled utopian dreamer is always the smartest guy in the room. Just ask him. Democrats are incorporating some (not all) progressive ideas. It's a process. You gain seats, you earn votes, you sell your agenda.

Or just call everyone stupid who don't see things your way. Typical lazy generational BS.

steveschneider wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:

It was a huge blunder for Hillary to take Wisconsin (and to a lesser extent Michigan and Pennsylvania) for granted. Saying that has zero to do with her being a woman. It was all part of the, "How could this idiot get elected?" discussion.

There has been plenty of talk about Trump's blunder in his handling/ignoring of the pandemic. Anything he did or didnt do in Georgia and Arizona pales in comparison to that. Besides, it should be the right wing media's looking at what "their guy" did wrong and how to avoid that next time. But if they can't say that he lost in the first place, for fear of backlash, they can't talk about why he lost.

I just googled Hillary Wisconsin and Trump Arizona. The Hillary search returned article after article outlining her campaign blunders.

Did the same for Trump Arizona, I did a few spot checks on the articles I could find that seemed to offer up some kind of analysis about his defeat. The one for Trump that turned up from Fox mentions that elderly white voters were split and latino voters over overwhelmingly went for Biden. Can't find any where near the same coverage going over what a stupid campaign he ran or how his blunders (too many to count) cost him.

I'm sure there's an article out there but I'm not finding it after a quick search.

Did Trump not campaign in Arizona? I thought he did. It was his second stop on the Covid Summer Tour 2020. Or did he not in the fall? Or what was his blunder there that is comparable to Hillary assuming Wisconsin would vote for her despite them not voting for her in the primary?

But again, anything Trump did or didn't do in Arizona pales in comparison to Covid. Not to mention the previous 4 years of blunders and embarrassments.

You're trying to compare two things that are nothing alike and find misogyny there.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:There is no reason, literally no reason at all whatsoever in any world, why a progressive should say “yeah I’m gonna go ahead and vote for the democrat no matter what” 3 years before the election. You want to talk about doing the work to effect change? Sure, let’s talk about that. Step 1 is definitely NOT telling them “yeah I’m gonna vote for you no matter what bullshit I hate you cram down my throat thank you sir yes allow me to eat shit. Now let’s please talk about how I don’t like you. Oh, no we can’t talk about that? Yes sir.”

You're defending a post where someone said they will sit out an election if Kamala Harris is the Dem nominee without even knowing who the Republican nominee will be.

That's lazy as fuck.

kingstonlake wrote:God forbid progressives put in the work from the inside.

They are. They have been working hard at the local level, which is incredibly important, and finding success.

Opinion: Progressives around the country are recalling sewer socialism’s proud history
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/20/progressives-around-country-are-recalling-sewer-socialisms-proud-history/

Across the State of New York, Left Elected Officials Are Winning
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/07/new-york-state-elections-india-walton-progressive-politics-democratic-party

Turtleneck wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:God forbid progressives put in the work from the inside.

They are. They have been working hard at the local level, which is incredibly important, and finding success.

Opinion: Progressives around the country are recalling sewer socialism’s proud history
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/20/progressives-around-country-are-recalling-sewer-socialisms-proud-history/

Across the State of New York, Left Elected Officials Are Winning
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/07/new-york-state-elections-india-walton-progressive-politics-democratic-party

I agree they are. And they should. They should also get elected. If they don't they need work with those that hold elected office. Work with those who are not progressives and get what they can from them. But just saying fuck it, I'm out if you don't nominate a progressive to be president, is foolish. Believe it or not moderates and progressives do have identical goals in some circumstances. I just don't understand the minority wing of the party saying if you don't give me the highest position in the party, I'm out. Makes no sense. Work with each other.

For the record fuck Manchin and Sinema. They're the problem. Not Kamala Harris. She basically stood up to Manchin if I remember correctly and caught hell for it. People like him need to go. If Dems had a bigger hammer in the Senate you'd see more progressive platforms work their way into passed bills. They just don't have it now. It's a delicate game.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

steveschneider wrote:The far left

Have fun voting for Jill Stein or Howie Hawkins.

Have fun with trump as President because you’re too stupid to realize that you need cam.

Yeah, the DNC should change everything to appease a voter like Cam and that is going to win a general election.  

Great to hear from the 'smartest guy in the room' on this one.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I just googled Hillary Wisconsin and Trump Arizona.  The Hillary search returned article after article outlining her campaign blunders.

Did the same for Trump Arizona, I did a few spot checks on the articles I could find that seemed to offer up some kind of analysis about his defeat. The one for Trump that turned up from Fox mentions that elderly white voters were split and latino voters over overwhelmingly went for Biden. Can't find any where near the same coverage going over what a stupid campaign he ran or how his blunders (too many to count) cost him.

I'm sure there's an article out there but I'm not finding it after a quick search.

Did Trump not campaign in Arizona?  I thought he did.  It was his second stop on the Covid Summer Tour 2020.  Or did he not in the fall?  Or what was his blunder there that is comparable to Hillary assuming Wisconsin would vote for her despite them not voting for her in the primary?

But again, anything Trump did or didn't do in Arizona pales in comparison to Covid.  Not to mention the previous 4 years of blunders and embarrassments.

You're trying to compare two things that are nothing alike and find misogyny there.

I disagree, Trump blew it with two states he absolutely should have won and the level of press coverage between the two features a wide disparity.

How about we look at Al Gore blowing it in his home state Tennessee. I don't recall any where near as much coverage about that as a failure by the pundits. My hypothesis is it's the way the press covers men vs women.

If you don't think the press covers women differently that's okay but it's my perception that they do.

edit: Just did a search on Al Gore Tennessee, reading a few articles on it. No where near the same tone of assigning blame to Al for the loss. Seeing stuff like 'clinton fatigue', and his 'soft support for the Vietnam war' or 'low voter turnout' as the reasons. No where near as many articles on it either.

steveschneider wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:

Did Trump not campaign in Arizona?  I thought he did.  It was his second stop on the Covid Summer Tour 2020.  Or did he not in the fall?  Or what was his blunder there that is comparable to Hillary assuming Wisconsin would vote for her despite them not voting for her in the primary?

But again, anything Trump did or didn't do in Arizona pales in comparison to Covid.  Not to mention the previous 4 years of blunders and embarrassments.

You're trying to compare two things that are nothing alike and find misogyny there.

I disagree, Trump blew it with two states he absolutely should have won and the level of press coverage between the two features a wide disparity.

How about we look at Al Gore blowing it in his home state Tennessee. I don't recall any where near as much coverage about that as a failure by the pundits. My hypothesis is it's the way the press covers men vs women.

If you don't think the press covers women differently that's okay but it's my perception that they do.

edit: Just did a search on Al Gore Tennessee, reading a few articles on it. No where near the same tone of assigning blame to Al for the loss. Seeing stuff like 'clinton fatigue', and his 'soft support for the Vietnam war' or 'low voter turnout' as the reasons. No where near as many articles on it either.

Gore losing didn't lead to someone like Trump. And Trump losing meant he was out. Hillary losing gave us Trump. That's the difference, not gender. And neither Gore nor Trump lost those states in the primary and then still ignored them and took then for granted during the general.

No need to put words in my mouth, saying that I don't think the media treats men and women differently. Especially not when I've said the exact opposite in this very thread. That doesn't mean every criticism of women is because they're women, and I don't see that to be remotely the case when talking about Hillary and Wisconsin. But that's just me (and I think most people).

kingstonlake wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:There is no reason, literally no reason at all whatsoever in any world, why a progressive should say “yeah I’m gonna go ahead and vote for the democrat no matter what” 3 years before the election. You want to talk about doing the work to effect change? Sure, let’s talk about that. Step 1 is definitely NOT telling them “yeah I’m gonna vote for you no matter what bullshit I hate you cram down my throat thank you sir yes allow me to eat shit. Now let’s please talk about how I don’t like you. Oh, no we can’t talk about that? Yes sir.”

You're defending a post where someone said they will sit out an election if Kamala Harris is the Dem nominee without even knowing who the Republican nominee will be.

That's lazy as fuck.

Without knowing who the Democratic nominee will be, I can tell you with certainty that I will not be voting for the Republican. I bet you don't find fault with that.

There's no shortage of shitty politicians to vote against. I need one worth voting for.

Cameron wrote:There's no shortage of shitty politicians to vote against. I need one worth voting for.

This should not be a controversial take. When all a politician needs to be is slightly not as shitty as his horrible opponent, then you'll have a shitty winner regardless.

kingstonlake wrote:For the record fuck Manchin and Sinema. They're the problem. Not Kamala Harris. She basically stood up to Manchin if I remember correctly and caught hell for it. People like him need to go. If Dems had a bigger hammer in the Senate you'd see more progressive platforms work their way into passed bills. They just don't have it now. It's a delicate game.

Keep in mind, however, that the chances of replacing Manchin with any Dem, let alone one that is even slightly left of Manchin, is somewhere around 0.000000000001%. And that's being conservative.

Get a solid majority before worrying about culling one of your own to be replaced by a Trump Republican or someone that will do McConnell's bidding on everything.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I just googled Hillary Wisconsin and Trump Arizona. The Hillary search returned article after article outlining her campaign blunders.

Did the same for Trump Arizona, I did a few spot checks on the articles I could find that seemed to offer up some kind of analysis about his defeat. The one for Trump that turned up from Fox mentions that elderly white voters were split and latino voters over overwhelmingly went for Biden. Can't find any where near the same coverage going over what a stupid campaign he ran or how his blunders (too many to count) cost him.

I'm sure there's an article out there but I'm not finding it after a quick search.

Did Trump not campaign in Arizona? I thought he did. It was his second stop on the Covid Summer Tour 2020. Or did he not in the fall? Or what was his blunder there that is comparable to Hillary assuming Wisconsin would vote for her despite them not voting for her in the primary?

But again, anything Trump did or didn't do in Arizona pales in comparison to Covid. Not to mention the previous 4 years of blunders and embarrassments.

You're trying to compare two things that are nothing alike and find misogyny there.

I think we're extremely lucky that Trump didn't make it for another four years. If he did I could see him loading up the top echelons of everything he could with people that are beholden to him and would do whatever he asked. At the end of the four years he would have put them into action and we would be under the control of a dictator with the blessing of the GQP and what we see going on right now would pale in comparison.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:For the record fuck Manchin and Sinema. They're the problem. Not Kamala Harris. She basically stood up to Manchin if I remember correctly and caught hell for it. People like him need to go. If Dems had a bigger hammer in the Senate you'd see more progressive platforms work their way into passed bills. They just don't have it now. It's a delicate game.

Keep in mind, however, that the chances of replacing Manchin with any Dem, let alone one that is even slightly left of Manchin, is somewhere around 0.000000000001%. And that's being conservative.

Get a solid majority before worrying about culling one of your own to be replaced by a Trump Republican or someone that will do McConnell's bidding on everything.

Agree. The WV seat is toast realistically. Have to make your ground up somewhere else. Maybe I should have said we need to make his vote less "lynchpin-ish".

I don't know how anyone can live through the last four years and then see a new administration come in set up the child tax credit which could cut child poverty in half.

CUT CHILD POVERTY IN HALF

And come out today and say they wouldn't vote for a dem in 2024. Travis and Cam aren't real progressives.

When it comes to being a progressive

Steve > Cameron + Travis

If you are one, I damn sure don't want to be.

steveschneider wrote:I don't know how anyone can live through the last four years and then see a new administration come in set up the child tax credit which could cut child poverty in half.

CUT CHILD POVERTY IN HALF

And come out today and say they wouldn't vote for a dem in 2024. Travis and Cam aren't real progressives.

When it comes to being a progressive

Steve > Cameron + Travis

It's not a stretch to say some MSU fans would rather see SCum lose than MSU win.

Cameron wrote:If you are one, I damn sure don't want to be.

He’s always falsely impressed with himself given he can’t hold the same position year to year let alone hour to hour.

Turtleneck wrote:

Cameron wrote:If you are one, I damn sure don't want to be.

He’s always falsely impressed with himself given he can’t hold the same position year to year let alone hour to hour.

You love it. That’s why you unblocked me. I’m the best.

steveschneider wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

He’s always falsely impressed with himself given he can’t hold the same position year to year let alone hour to hour.

You love it. That’s why you unblocked me. I’m the best.

Not really. I don't trust you and your new schtick is generally horrible.