Re: SCOTUS agrees to rule on independent legislature theory

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:48 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Any time we’ve talked about student loans it always devolves to you whining that no one is offering to pick up the tab to your mortgage and how unfair you think that is but you go off big guy
I don’t have a mortgage. I don’t owe a dime to anyone. That’s what work does. Good luck with your loans.

Sorry, in other threads it was “the government should buy me a house on the beach if other people get loans forgiven”, I just summarized. But no it’s everyone else that is only worried about self interest and not just you whose biggest self interest sounds like it’s probably maintaining the status quo.

Don’t need your luck but thx

by PennSpartan Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:55 pm

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
I don’t have a mortgage. I don’t owe a dime to anyone. That’s what work does. Good luck with your loans.

Sorry, in other threads it was “the government should buy me a house on the beach if other people get loans forgiven”, I just summarized. But no it’s everyone else that is only worried about self interest and not just you whose biggest self interest sounds like it’s probably maintaining the status quo.

Don’t need your luck but thx

Apparently you never understood my point. If you’re going to have loan forgiveness, give it to EVERYONE who needs it. Not just college graduates. I clearly don’t need it but I was making a point. College grads are no more needy than anyone else.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:02 pm

Again, you just want the status quo because everything is fine for you as is. And that’s okay. But spare us the “everyone else is only interested in self interest goals while I’m being altruistic” when it’s so clearly bullshit

by PennSpartan Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:29 pm

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Again, you just want the status quo because everything is fine for you as is. And that’s okay. But spare us the “everyone else is only interested in self interest goals while I’m being altruistic” when it’s so clearly bullshit

No idea what this means. Take care of the needy first. You are not needy.

by Pervis Muldoon Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:52 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

You don't get to decide the membership of a party you vowed to dump if you didn't get your way in 2020. You were pretty close to being just another old white MAGA.
Just like AOC when she voted against the infrastructure bill? Or Cameron here on this board when he said anyone is better than Biden? I’m a card carrying Democrat. You’re not. Good luck in November. You’ll need it. I don’t.

DINO

by PennSpartan Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:55 pm

Pervis Muldoon wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
Just like AOC when she voted against the infrastructure bill? Or Cameron here on this board when he said anyone is better than Biden? I’m a card carrying Democrat. You’re not. Good luck in November. You’ll need it. I don’t.

DINO

Commie

by **Cameron** Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:12 am

PennSpartan wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

You don't get to decide the membership of a party you vowed to dump if you didn't get your way in 2020. You were pretty close to being just another old white MAGA.
Just like AOC when she voted against the infrastructure bill? Or Cameron here on this board when he said anyone is better than Biden? I’m a card carrying Democrat. You’re not. Good luck in November. You’ll need it. I don’t.

Reminder that, for all my antipathy towards Biden and his flailing ineffectiveness, I did vote for him last election. Guess I should have been more willing to watch it all burn out of spite, like you and your hero Manchin.

by **kingstonlake** Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:41 am

“Card carrying Democrat”….. what does that (boomer alert) even mean? Is their something in the membership that says it’s ok to vote for Trump if your preferred candidate doesn’t win the nomination?

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:00 am

PennSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Again, you just want the status quo because everything is fine for you as is. And that’s okay. But spare us the “everyone else is only interested in self interest goals while I’m being altruistic” when it’s so clearly bullshit
No idea what this means. Take care of the needy first. You are not needy.

I’m not surprised. You posted 2 things important here-

1) you said that everyone else wants things out of self interest, implying that you would do no such thing
2) you posted that you don’t have any debt, and are largely doing pretty well

So your policy positions, which seem to be “don’t do anything different maintain the status quo”, are actually born out of just as much self interest as someone looking to have their debt forgiven. Your interest is to do nothing, and that’s fine, it makes sense for you, but don’t accuse others of acting purely in their own self interest when you are doing the exact same thing.

by sεяεηιτλ Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:32 pm

Why is everyone attacking Penn lately?

He's right on some things, he also votes in his own self interest, just like you. Democrats are currently stricken with crippling ineffectiveness. We desperately need another Obama to come round and rally the troops. Part of the problem is progressive extremism and uninspiring moderate democrats. The old guard democrats are likely to blame. They are artificially keeping the party from evolving and thus we are missing popularity waves that could be used to garner more political inches. It's almost as if those old guard members are secretly republicans.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:40 pm

sεяεηιτλ wrote:Why is everyone attacking Penn lately?

He's right on some things, he also votes in his own self interest, just like you. Democrats are currently stricken with crippling ineffectiveness. We desperately need another Obama to come round and rally the troops. Part of the problem is progressive extremism and uninspiring moderate democrats.

Because he implies this is not true, at least in this case. Regularly showing up to exclusively whine about what he thinks progressives are also does it.

I’m not sure what you mean by progressive extremism but in general progressives only want things that other developed countries have had for years to great success. That doesn’t seem particularly extreme or all that unreasonable really. In any other country they’d be just a bit left of center. Here they’re “radicals” which is just conservative propaganda infiltrating your brain to make you think progressivism is far more extreme than it really is.

by sεяεηιτλ Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:44 pm

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
sεяεηιτλ wrote:Why is everyone attacking Penn lately?

He's right on some things, he also votes in his own self interest, just like you. Democrats are currently stricken with crippling ineffectiveness. We desperately need another Obama to come round and rally the troops. Part of the problem is progressive extremism and uninspiring moderate democrats.

Because he implies this is not true, at least in this case. Regularly showing up to exclusively whine about what he thinks progressives are also does it.

I’m not sure what you mean by progressive extremism but in general progressives only want things that other developed countries have had for years to great success. That doesn’t seem particularly extreme or all that unreasonable really. In any other country they’d be just a bit left of center. Here they’re “radicals” which is just conservative propaganda infiltrating your brain to make you think progressivism is far more extreme than it really is.

I guess I mean the progressives that are uncompromising. When you have two groups with some power, you gotta compromise. I agree in general, I identify as more of a progressive but I have a problem with progressives that shoot for the moon without taking intermediate steps. Those are the people that are progressive extremists as viewed by a good portion of the country, not by me and obviously not you. Shooting for the moon in most cases is about as useful as most democrats today, that is to say not very useful. It goes into this calculus that dems aren't getting things done. Part of it is this and the ideological split within the party.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:48 pm

At least in the healthcare case- Obama was the intermediary step. We don’t need another intermediary step. It’s time to just fix the broken system. No one actually advocates for “it’s fine as it is”. One said presents a plan snd the other side says “blargh no that’s death panels blah blah blah”. So how do you compromise when they don’t even take a position, instead just say thing they’ll fix it then do absolutely nothing

by **kingstonlake** Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:38 pm

Wait….. Is Travis insinuating that a vast majority of student loan debt holders haven’t been to Cancun?

I call bullshit.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:22 pm

sεяεηιτλ wrote:Why is everyone attacking Penn lately?

He's right on some things, he also votes in his own self interest, just like you. Democrats are currently stricken with crippling ineffectiveness. We desperately need another Obama to come round and rally the troops. Part of the problem is progressive extremism and uninspiring moderate democrats. The old guard democrats are likely to blame. They are artificially keeping the party from evolving and thus we are missing popularity waves that could be used to garner more political inches. It's almost as if those old guard members are secretly republicans.

Timing has much to do with Biden’s unpopularity. He came in during a pandemic which has led to inflation and high gas prices. You erase those two items and his ratings go up 15 points. And then he has a thin margin in the House and no margin in the Senate. Anyone who thinks you can accomplish much with that Congress hasn’t been watching politics for very long. As for me, I vote for Democrats. And I won’t join in the Biden bash fest. Sorry.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:31 pm

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
sεяεηιτλ wrote:Why is everyone attacking Penn lately?

He's right on some things, he also votes in his own self interest, just like you. Democrats are currently stricken with crippling ineffectiveness. We desperately need another Obama to come round and rally the troops. Part of the problem is progressive extremism and uninspiring moderate democrats.

Because he implies this is not true, at least in this case. Regularly showing up to exclusively whine about what he thinks progressives are also does it.

I’m not sure what you mean by progressive extremism but in general progressives only want things that other developed countries have had for years to great success. That doesn’t seem particularly extreme or all that unreasonable really. In any other country they’d be just a bit left of center. Here they’re “radicals” which is just conservative propaganda infiltrating your brain to make you think progressivism is far more extreme than it really is.

For the record, I would support every single Progressive policy idea that Bernie and AOC and the rest have proposed if there was a money tree growing on the Capitol lawn. But I’ve watched over the course of my life as the debt goes up and up and now paying the interest on it consumes about a third of our taxes. Maybe you can relate to that if you have college debt. We have to start paying for the programs we invent. There was a time when I had debt, too. It sucks, and I vowed to work it off and never get in debt again. Now I want the same for our country.

by **kingstonlake** Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:44 pm

Universal healthcare and college can easily be paid for. But there’s to many elected moderates with full pockets that won’t do it. It’s gonna have to be a slow flip on how this country views what’s in their best interest. I’m tired of “well vote progressives in power then” Why the fuck do you have to be a progressive to understand that universal healthcare isn’t political or in everyone’s best interest. It’s been made political by the moderates and far right that have been elected.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:54 pm

kingstonlake wrote:Universal healthcare and college can easily be paid for. But there’s to many elected moderates with full pockets that won’t do it. It’s gonna have to be a slow flip on how this country views what’s in their best interest. I’m tired of “well vote progressives in power then” Why the fuck do you have to be a progressive to understand that universal healthcare isn’t political or in everyone’s best interest. It’s been made political by the moderates and far right that have been elected.

Again, the primary reason moderates don’t support some of these programs is cost. Universal healthcare should be the priority but for some reason Progressives shifted to student debt and hardly mention healthcare anymore. Healthcare benefits everyone. So I’d be on board.

by **kingstonlake** Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:04 pm

I believe Germany has an effective tax rate of around 45%. US is about 37%

Germany has free healthcare and college. Hell, as an American citizen I can go to college for free in Germany.

And Germany does it with a 16% corporate tax rate…..

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:12 pm

kingstonlake wrote:I believe Germany has an effective tax rate of around 45%.

And Germany does it with a 16% corporate tax rate…..

You’d never get Bernie to agree to that!

by Pervis Muldoon Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:25 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:Universal healthcare and college can easily be paid for. But there’s to many elected moderates with full pockets that won’t do it. It’s gonna have to be a slow flip on how this country views what’s in their best interest. I’m tired of “well vote progressives in power then” Why the fuck do you have to be a progressive to understand that universal healthcare isn’t political or in everyone’s best interest. It’s been made political by the moderates and far right that have been elected.
Again, the primary reason moderates don’t support some of these programs is cost. Universal healthcare should be the priority but for some reason Progressives shifted to student debt and hardly mention healthcare anymore. Healthcare benefits everyone. So I’d be on board.

Healthcare is harder to do, because the insurance industry is very powerful. They kept us from getting a public option by having a couple of moderate Democrats in their pockets, while a Republicans were united against whatever Obama tried to pass. It should be a top priority, but it takes effort.

by **kingstonlake** Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:27 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:I believe Germany has an effective tax rate of around 45%.

And Germany does it with a 16% corporate tax rate…..
You’d never get Bernie to agree to that!

And so what?

by Pervis Muldoon Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:35 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:I believe Germany has an effective tax rate of around 45%.

And Germany does it with a 16% corporate tax rate…..
You’d never get Bernie to agree to that!

Why would we want to lower our corporate tax rate even more? Before the Trump corporate tax cut, I used to hear conservatives say that the US shouldn't have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. I would laugh, because we should have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. We have by far the biggest consumer market. By far. So why should we whore it out for pennies? Make corporations pay for access to this gold mine. Let Germany and Ireland try to make themselves look like bargains. We don't have to. Not only that, but it weakens us to do so.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:03 pm

Pervis Muldoon wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
You’d never get Bernie to agree to that!

Why would we want to lower our corporate tax rate even more? Before the Trump corporate tax cut, I used to hear conservatives say that the US shouldn't have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. I would laugh, because we should have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. We have by far the biggest consumer market. By far. So why should we whore it out for pennies? Make corporations pay for access to this gold mine. Let Germany and Ireland try to make themselves look like bargains. We don't have to. Not only that, but it weakens us to do so.

It wasn’t my example. Ask Kingstonlake why he posted it.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:38 pm

Two thoughts about the National Debt, mostly directed at Penn.

The US has always carried some amount of debt & this is a good thing as having government bonds is a huge stabilizing factor for financial markets, as the bonds are a "safe haven" big investors run to when other investments are going south.

The interest on the national debt for 2022 is 5.07% of the US Government Spending, nowhere near 33%. This is further reduced as the interest paid on the US debt that the Federal Reserve Banks own as that interest is paid by the Federal Reserve Banks back the US Treasury. Currently the "Fed" owns about 17.4% of the US national debt. (math --- (1 - 0.174) * 0.0507)* 100 = 4.18782% of US Government Spending actually is spent.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:19 pm

Trapper Gus wrote:Two thoughts about the National Debt, mostly directed at Penn.

The US has always carried some amount of debt & this is a good thing as having government bonds is a huge stabilizing factor for financial markets, as the bonds are a "safe haven" big investors run to when other investments are going south.

The interest on the national debt for 2022 is 5.07% of the US Government Spending, nowhere near 33%. This is further reduced as the interest paid on the US debt that the Federal Reserve Banks own as that interest is paid by the Federal Reserve Banks back the US Treasury. Currently the "Fed" owns about 17.4% of the US national debt. (math --- (1 - 0.174) * 0.0507)* 100 = 4.18782% of US Government Spending actually is spent.

My bad, not sure where I heard that 1/3 number. But it’s worst than your claim, Trapper
“This year, the federal government will spend $300 billion on interest payments on the national debt. This is the equivalent of nearly 9 percent of all federal revenue collection and over $2,400 per household.”

https://www.crfb.org/papers/how-high-are-federal-interest-payments

by AvgMSUJoe Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:38 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:Two thoughts about the National Debt, mostly directed at Penn.

The US has always carried some amount of debt & this is a good thing as having government bonds is a huge stabilizing factor for financial markets, as the bonds are a "safe haven" big investors run to when other investments are going south.

The interest on the national debt for 2022 is 5.07% of the US Government Spending, nowhere near 33%. This is further reduced as the interest paid on the US debt that the Federal Reserve Banks own as that interest is paid by the Federal Reserve Banks back the US Treasury. Currently the "Fed" owns about 17.4% of the US national debt. (math --- (1 - 0.174) * 0.0507)* 100 = 4.18782% of US Government Spending actually is spent.
My bad, not sure where I heard that 1/3 number. But it’s worst than your claim, Trapper
“This year, the federal government will spend $300 billion on interest payments on the national debt. This is the equivalent of nearly 9 percent of all federal revenue collection and over $2,400 per household.”

https://www.crfb.org/papers/how-high-are-federal-interest-payments

So what?
This is the line the rs taught you in the late 70s early 80s... You realize the govt is also the bank. Also, the govt controls the amount of cash. Which is as a % of gdp is low compared. So while the real issue is generally supply side inflation....(of course war in Europe and pandemic nulls and voids all that bullshit on the inflationary front) it is not what we have to "pay".

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:44 pm

AvgMSUJoe wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
My bad, not sure where I heard that 1/3 number. But it’s worst than your claim, Trapper
“This year, the federal government will spend $300 billion on interest payments on the national debt. This is the equivalent of nearly 9 percent of all federal revenue collection and over $2,400 per household.”

https://www.crfb.org/papers/how-high-are-federal-interest-payments
So what?
This is the line the rs taught you in the late 70s early 80s... You realize the govt is also the bank. Also, the govt controls the amount of cash. Which is as a % of gdp is low compared. So while the real issue is generally supply side inflation....(of course war in Europe and pandemic nulls and voids all that bullshit on the inflationary front) it is not what we have to "pay".

I’ll go back to my old argument then. If it makes no difference how much the government pays, then have them pay for everything. Our homes, cars, food, etc.

by AvgMSUJoe Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:52 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
AvgMSUJoe wrote:
So what?
This is the line the rs taught you in the late 70s early 80s... You realize the govt is also the bank. Also, the govt controls the amount of cash. Which is as a % of gdp is low compared. So while the real issue is generally supply side inflation....(of course war in Europe and pandemic nulls and voids all that bullshit on the inflationary front) it is not what we have to "pay".
I’ll go back to my old argument then. If it makes no difference how much the government pays, then have them pay for everything. Our homes, cars, food, etc.

As a percentage of gdp. Read slowly.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:59 pm

AvgMSUJoe wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
I’ll go back to my old argument then. If it makes no difference how much the government pays, then have them pay for everything. Our homes, cars, food, etc.
As a percentage of gdp. Read slowly.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Except for a few instances, the debt has continued to increase along with the interest on it. It’s a concern for me.

by AvgMSUJoe Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:04 pm

But the gdp, has grown exponentially since the 80s. Of course it all went to top %01 and not anyone else, but it's still the gdp and it's still the supply of cash the world has to economize.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:05 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:Two thoughts about the National Debt, mostly directed at Penn.

The US has always carried some amount of debt & this is a good thing as having government bonds is a huge stabilizing factor for financial markets, as the bonds are a "safe haven" big investors run to when other investments are going south.

The interest on the national debt for 2022 is 5.07% of the US Government Spending, nowhere near 33%. This is further reduced as the interest paid on the US debt that the Federal Reserve Banks own as that interest is paid by the Federal Reserve Banks back the US Treasury. Currently the "Fed" owns about 17.4% of the US national debt. (math --- (1 - 0.174) * 0.0507)* 100 = 4.18782% of US Government Spending actually is spent.
My bad, not sure where I heard that 1/3 number. But it’s worst than your claim, Trapper
“This year, the federal government will spend $300 billion on interest payments on the national debt. This is the equivalent of nearly 9 percent of all federal revenue collection and over $2,400 per household.”

https://www.crfb.org/papers/how-high-are-federal-interest-payments

The number I used is $308 billion, however I calculated the percentage using the government spending, not the government revenue, which is what your source is using.

I try to always work in percentages, as the dollar numbers can seem large to many people causing emotional reactions which get in the way of how much it really is to the overall picture. (And misleading if year to year to year are compared, which ignores inflation and GDP growth)

Still, that $308 Billion is still wrong, as 17.4% of it is taken from the Treasury, paid to the Fed, and then paid back to the Treasury. Accounting for that the interest paid is $254.4 billion, or about 7.4% of government revenue. If we included the interest paid on intergovernmental debt, like the Social Security Trust Funds & the Military Pension and Health Care Trust Funds the money flowing out of the government is less than that.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:11 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
AvgMSUJoe wrote:As a percentage of gdp. Read slowly.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Except for a few instances, the debt has continued to increase along with the interest on it. It’s a concern for me.

For people who study this stuff for a living the amount of Debt the US can carry before it is an issue is about twice what the debt is right now, as a percentage of GDP.

So, no reason for you to worry about it in the near term.

The people who want you to worry are the Republicans when anyone proposes increased spending on anyone but the 1%

edit - and btw, the BBB Acts had revenue increases that paid for them, please stop falling for the Republican lies about that.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:21 pm

Trapper Gus wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Except for a few instances, the debt has continued to increase along with the interest on it. It’s a concern for me.

For people who study this stuff for a living the amount of Debt the US can carry before it is an issue is about twice what the debt is right now, as a percentage of GDP.

So, no reason for you to worry about it in the near term.

The people who want you to worry are the Republicans when anyone proposes increased spending on anyone but the 1%

edit - and btw, the BBB Acts had revenue increases that paid for them, please stop falling for the Republican lies about that.

I do worry about it though, Trapper. Maybe this is why I have no debt, while millions of Americans are up to their eyeballs in it.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:41 pm

PennSpartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

For people who study this stuff for a living the amount of Debt the US can carry before it is an issue is about twice what the debt is right now, as a percentage of GDP.

So, no reason for you to worry about it in the near term.

The people who want you to worry are the Republicans when anyone proposes increased spending on anyone but the 1%

edit - and btw, the BBB Acts had revenue increases that paid for them, please stop falling for the Republican lies about that.
I do worry about it though, Trapper. Maybe this is why I have no debt, while millions of Americans are up to their eyeballs in it.

So many ways I could go with that statement ...

First - Sovreign Government Debt and Individual Personal Debt are in no way the same. Anyone who asks people to think that are is selling people bullshit to further their own political bullshit. Penn, never, ever, think that the US Government Debt and personal debt are analogies.

As to personal debt, there is nothing wrong with personal debt. There is nothing moral about having none and there is nothing immoral about have lots. Borrowing from the future in order to have a better life today is a very sensible act.

As for Student debt, there are fairness issues, but not just the ones Penn points out. The entire Student Debt System of financing education creates a drag on the economy only to enrich the middleman lenders at the expense of everyone else in the country.

A better way would be a return to how Penn's education was paid for, 80% by the government, instead of the 20% the government pays now. A better way would be 100% paid for by the government.

When Penn and others talk about the unfairness of paying off existing student debt, they ignore the generational unfairness that we have created and they ignore that the advocates of paying off that debt are also at the same time advocating for free, to the student, education, retuening to what Penn had when he went to school. Only looking at part of the elephant is a very ignorant way to argue about fairness.

by PennSpartan Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:00 pm

Trapper Gus wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
I do worry about it though, Trapper. Maybe this is why I have no debt, while millions of Americans are up to their eyeballs in it.

So many ways I could go with that statement ...

First - Sovreign Government Debt and Individual Personal Debt are in no way the same. Anyone who asks people to think that are is selling people bullshit to further their own political bullshit. Penn, never, ever, think that the US Government Debt and personal debt are analogies.

As to personal debt, there is nothing wrong with personal debt. There is nothing moral about having none and there is nothing immoral about have lots. Borrowing from the future in order to have a better life today is a very sensible act.

As for Student debt, there are fairness issues, but not just the ones Penn points out. The entire Student Debt System of financing education creates a drag on the economy only to enrich the middleman lenders at the expense of everyone else in the country.

A better way would be a return to how Penn's education was paid for, 80% by the government, instead of the 20% the government pays now. A better way would be 100% paid for by the government.

When Penn and others talk about the unfairness of paying off existing student debt, they ignore the generational unfairness that we have created and they ignore that the advocates of paying off that debt are also at the same time advocating for free, to the student, education, retuening to what Penn had when he went to school. Only looking at part of the elephant is a very ignorant way to argue about fairness.

You just contradicted yourself. I’ll let you figure out how. The student debt relief proposal is badly conceived. It doesn’t address those who paid their debt themselves and future student debt. I proposed something better here a few days ago. Have the government pay the interest and fees associated with the debt and the student pays the principal. And they can take as long as they want to pay it. 50 years to pay $50k in debt would be easy. Problem solved.

by **GRR Spartan** Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:03 pm

kingstonlake wrote:I believe Germany has an effective tax rate of around 45%. US is about 37%

Germany has free healthcare and college. Hell, as an American citizen I can go to college for free in Germany.

And Germany does it with a 16% corporate tax rate…..

Germany started nationalized healthcare in 1883 so they have a 140 year and five generation head start. Corporations 16% isn't out of line since their payrolls are higher to employees because the employees pay for national healthcare with their taxes.

We don't have that and to date US employers have done a helluva job convincing employees they will lose "freedom" that they have already lost having to seek in network care and pay for it with increasing deductible and co-pays. Its a heads we win tails you lose for healthcare tied to employment.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:10 am

PennSpartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

So many ways I could go with that statement ...

First - Sovreign Government Debt and Individual Personal Debt are in no way the same. Anyone who asks people to think that are is selling people bullshit to further their own political bullshit. Penn, never, ever, think that the US Government Debt and personal debt are analogies.

As to personal debt, there is nothing wrong with personal debt. There is nothing moral about having none and there is nothing immoral about have lots. Borrowing from the future in order to have a better life today is a very sensible act.

As for Student debt, there are fairness issues, but not just the ones Penn points out. The entire Student Debt System of financing education creates a drag on the economy only to enrich the middleman lenders at the expense of everyone else in the country.

A better way would be a return to how Penn's education was paid for, 80% by the government, instead of the 20% the government pays now. A better way would be 100% paid for by the government.

When Penn and others talk about the unfairness of paying off existing student debt, they ignore the generational unfairness that we have created and they ignore that the advocates of paying off that debt are also at the same time advocating for free, to the student, education, retuening to what Penn had when he went to school. Only looking at part of the elephant is a very ignorant way to argue about fairness.
You just contradicted yourself. I’ll let you figure out how. The student debt relief proposal is badly conceived. It doesn’t address those who paid their debt themselves and future student debt. I proposed something better here a few days ago. Have the government pay the interest and fees associated with the debt and the student pays the principal. And they can take as long as they want to pay it. 50 years to pay $50k in debt would be easy. Problem solved.

As I explained, those who support student dept relief, for a deeply flawed system (which you agreed is deeply flawed), also support free post high school education for everyone who wants it. That addresses your point. I believe that some student debt legislative proposals have proposals to refund excess interest & fees already paid within them, which addresses another point you have.

As to what you believe is a contradiction, if you really want to make a point of it, which you don't, you need to be more specific, as there were three subjects discussed.

by **GRR Spartan** Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:03 am

Trapper, you are a hoot.

The thread I happened to start has drifted to multiple subjects and you are chiding me to be more specific?

If you were a prof in my political science class and you were leading the discussion, okay. Telling me to be more specific about a thread I started that’s all over the place, no.

This place is nice because you can’t herd cats. Free form is a constant.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:37 am

GRR Spartan wrote:Trapper, you are a hoot.

The thread I happened to start has drifted to multiple subjects and you are chiding me to be more specific?

If you were a prof in my political science class and you were leading the discussion, okay. Telling me to be more specific about a thread I started that’s all over the place, no.

This place is nice because you can’t herd cats. Free form is a constant.

I am aware that for some posters on this board I can do nothing right ...

However, ...

I was responding to Penn, whom I quoted, and in response to his post I believe my response makes sense.

As for taking this thread off track, it was well off track before I joined into the new topic under discussion, thus all that I can be blamed for is continuing, after a number of off-track posts by other posters, on the off-track topic. I was only correcting a mistake in knowledge by one of the posters in the off-track topic, to begin my off-track posts, and really wasn't trying to go any further, except Penn added responses to me, which I tried to answer.

On page one I was responding to the topic of the thread.

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