Re: Active shooter situation near the Union

by **Trapper Gus** Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:30 am

IHOP is upping the incentive to donate by providing free food to those who do, pretty much what you said.

by **tGreenWay** Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:54 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:[tw]1630538315836575745[/tw]
I suspect there's more to it, but when I see this, all I hear is "sorry about what happened. Here.. have some pancakes".

Pancakes can be very soothing, Floyd, emotionally speaking.

by **Jake from State Farm** Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:10 pm

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:[tw]1630538315836575745[/tw]
I suspect there's more to it, but when I see this, all I hear is "sorry about what happened. Here.. have some pancakes".

There's an ad on there for Spartan Strong t-shirts. Any way to tell if they're licensed or just out to make a fast buck?

by **Trapper Gus** Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:26 am

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/msu-police-cant-explain-13-minute-alert-gap-remain-mum-shooting-details

by **Jake from State Farm** Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:40 am

Trapper Gus wrote:https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/msu-police-cant-explain-13-minute-alert-gap-remain-mum-shooting-details

Now they can work on making sure they get it right should there ever be a next time. Hopefully there never is a next time.

by **Motown Spartan** Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:55 am

13 minutes seems like an eternity under the circumstances, but at the same time, it isn't. The "fog of war" if you will, disrupts our perceptions and confuses our decision making ability. I can't fault anyone for not getting these things 100% right. It's fucking stupid that we even have to prepare for these kind of things.

by **DWags** Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:10 am

[tw]1631009616128622592?s=20[/tw]

by **Robert J Sakimano** Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:18 am

Motown Spartan wrote:13 minutes seems like an eternity under the circumstances, but at the same time, it isn't. The "fog of war" if you will, disrupts our perceptions and confuses our decision making ability. I can't fault anyone for not getting these things 100% right. It's fucking stupid that we even have to prepare for these kind of things.

agree with this.

and, the 'news outlet' link here is one of those local-ish leftist sort of outlets whose existence always seems to depend on controversy, creating narratives to drive revenue, etc.

as always, read these sorts of things - and all things, really - through the prism of 'what's in it for them, what is their agenda'?

and, to be clear, it's definitely something worth discussing and I suspect MSU PD is doing an in depth review of the process/protocols. I'm just not sure I want to hear from an online outlet whose hindsight is always 20/20.

by **Trapper Gus** Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:39 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:13 minutes seems like an eternity under the circumstances, but at the same time, it isn't. The "fog of war" if you will, disrupts our perceptions and confuses our decision making ability. I can't fault anyone for not getting these things 100% right. It's fucking stupid that we even have to prepare for these kind of things.
agree with this.

and, the 'news outlet' link here is one of those local-ish leftist sort of outlets whose existence always seems to depend on controversy, creating narratives to drive revenue, etc.

as always, read these sorts of things - and all things, really - through the prism of 'what's in it for them, what is their agenda'?

and, to be clear, it's definitely something worth discussing and I suspect MSU PD is doing an in depth review of the process/protocols. I'm just not sure I want to hear from an online outlet whose hindsight is always 20/20.

Okay, though sometimes I think we are more sensitive to the "click bait" of the articles when something we love in involved. to be fair the MSM they are all fighting for attention to stay in business.

It is a fair point that the mass shooting shows both where the law enforcement community did well, which is in very many places, and where there are areas that can be made better.

by **Motown Spartan** Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:42 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
agree with this.

and, the 'news outlet' link here is one of those local-ish leftist sort of outlets whose existence always seems to depend on controversy, creating narratives to drive revenue, etc.

as always, read these sorts of things - and all things, really - through the prism of 'what's in it for them, what is their agenda'?

and, to be clear, it's definitely something worth discussing and I suspect MSU PD is doing an in depth review of the process/protocols. I'm just not sure I want to hear from an online outlet whose hindsight is always 20/20.

Okay, though sometimes I think we are more sensitive to the "click bait" of the articles when something we love in involved. to be fair the MSM they are all fighting for attention to stay in business.

It is a fair point that the mass shooting shows both where the law enforcement community did well, which is in very many places, and where there are areas that can be made better.

I think in this case the MSM is looking to point the finger at someone and blame them rather than finding deficiencies and how to improve them.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:54 am

Motown Spartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Okay, though sometimes I think we are more sensitive to the "click bait" of the articles when something we love in involved. to be fair the MSM they are all fighting for attention to stay in business.

It is a fair point that the mass shooting shows both where the law enforcement community did well, which is in very many places, and where there are areas that can be made better.

I think in this case the MSM is looking to point the finger at someone and blame them rather than finding deficiencies and how to improve them.

exactly.

creating division and outrage = clicks = revenue.

by **DWags** Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:39 pm

[tw]1633609753292328961?s=46&t=o_-92Ldle66XHQBlJVUMFQ[/tw]

by **Floyd Robertson** Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:04 am

From the gunfire at MSU, an emerging class of determined gun activists

by **Dendrobates** Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:30 am

I can't help but think of the security measures as being a waste. Is it just my cynical self?

We all want to be in control of these situations, so it makes sense that way. But this was a random, mentally ill fucker who did this. All those security measures won't help, if another fucker just walking around campus does this. Gun control is the only real control we need.

I feel like the rest of the security measures just bring a false sense of hope and control.

Am I wrong? Too biased?

by **DWags** Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:47 am

Dendrobates wrote:I can't help but think of the security measures as being a waste. Is it just my cynical self?

We all want to be in control of these situations, so it makes sense that way. But this was a random, mentally ill fucker who did this. All those security measures won't help, if another fucker just walking around campus does this. Gun control is the only real control we need.

I feel like the rest of the security measures just bring a false sense of hope and control.

Am I wrong? Too biased?

I honestly don’t think MSU had a choice here. They couldn’t just go back after this and say, “we’re good, no changes”. So, that basically gave them only one way to go. Now as far as are they any good, that’s fair. Probably minimally. But I just don’t think there was a choice.

by **Floyd Robertson** Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:04 am

DWags wrote:
Dendrobates wrote:I can't help but think of the security measures as being a waste. Is it just my cynical self?

We all want to be in control of these situations, so it makes sense that way. But this was a random, mentally ill fucker who did this. All those security measures won't help, if another fucker just walking around campus does this. Gun control is the only real control we need.

I feel like the rest of the security measures just bring a false sense of hope and control.

Am I wrong? Too biased?

I honestly don’t think MSU had a choice here. They couldn’t just go back after this and say, “we’re good, no changes”. So, that basically gave them only one way to go. Now as far as are they any good, that’s fair. Probably minimally. But I just don’t think there was a choice.

I have to say that I'm disappointed in the way some media have treated this security issue, as a good many of them have screamed "THERE WAS NO SECURITY IN THESE BUILDINGS!!!!!". It would have potentially made a difference, perhaps slowed the killer's rampage. I know I'm treading into whataboutism here, but how many other institutions of higher learning have adopted tighter security postures for their classrooms and public spaces after hours?

by **Trapper Gus** Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:59 am

Floyd Robertson wrote:
DWags wrote:

I honestly don’t think MSU had a choice here. They couldn’t just go back after this and say, “we’re good, no changes”. So, that basically gave them only one way to go. Now as far as are they any good, that’s fair. Probably minimally. But I just don’t think there was a choice.

I have to say that I'm disappointed in the way some media have treated this security issue, as a good many of them have screamed "THERE WAS NO SECURITY IN THESE BUILDINGS!!!!!". It would have potentially made a difference, perhaps slowed the killer's rampage. I know I'm treading into whataboutism here, but how many other institutions of higher learning have adopted tighter security postures for their classrooms and public spaces after hours?

There are some "common sense" actions, which may sound good but may have unintended consequences. Putting locks on classroom doors might slow a shooter down, or it might allow the shooter to lock themself in the classroom with a classroom full of people.

Better real time monitoring allows better tracking, maybe, at the expense of a loss of privacy, turning us more into a monitored state where minor lawbreaking has higher consequences than it used to.

I'm a strong proponent of locking guns up, but that isn't likely to happen.

edit - I read this article a week ago and didn't post it, because it seemed like half-assed reporting, but here is one take on campus security across the state.

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/michigan-state-shooting-university-lacked-security-common-other-campuses

by **MiamiSpartan** Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:26 pm

Floyd Robertson wrote:
DWags wrote:

I honestly don’t think MSU had a choice here. They couldn’t just go back after this and say, “we’re good, no changes”. So, that basically gave them only one way to go. Now as far as are they any good, that’s fair. Probably minimally. But I just don’t think there was a choice.

I have to say that I'm disappointed in the way some media have treated this security issue, as a good many of them have screamed "THERE WAS NO SECURITY IN THESE BUILDINGS!!!!!". It would have potentially made a difference, perhaps slowed the killer's rampage. I know I'm treading into whataboutism here, but how many other institutions of higher learning have adopted tighter security postures for their classrooms and public spaces after hours?

Any college will have so many people walking around outside that if someone wants to shoot up a college, they have plenty of targets (see VA Tech). But the media has to blame an institution that will actually care (i.e., not the shooter or gun advocates). It's reactionary to a very specific incident, and then the institution has to respond with something that will only prevent a repeat of that very specific incident.

All the while, it does little to prevent a future incident that does not follow the specific parameters of this one. Like th le building security is designed to prevent someone that is unaffiliated with the school from going into a building and shooting people. It doesn't stop a student from doing it. It doesn't stop shooting kids walking or at the Peanut Barrell or tailgating or doing a million other things.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:45 pm

It's genuinely a combination of sensible gun control and addressing our mental health crisis.

Locking doors, making them accessible only to folks with a pass code or swiping a card is fine and might act as a bit of a deterrent/delay, but if someone wants to commit a mass act of violence, they'll certainly have their opportunity as long as we keep ignoring the real problems.

by **Trapper Gus** Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:54 am

https://www.mlive.com/news/2023/04/letter-from-the-editor-msu-moves-ahead-bonded-by-trauma-and-motivated-to-improve-safety.html

“We’re on a journey together, but at different paces,” she said last week in a sit-down I had with her and her vice president of public safety, Marlon Lynch.

“There are ‘concentric circles’ of continuing fallout from the violence,” Woodruff said. “There are those in the center who are most affected, most proximal to the violence; those in the next ring that were just outside of that circle. And then the entire community was, in fact, impacted.”

Some MSU students, faculty and staff members have been involved in prior active shooter situations – including students who survived the attacks at Oxford High School in 2021. Woodruff herself was involved in a lockdown situation at Northwestern University before coming to MSU in 2020.

“People have different imprints and life experiences that also are part of healing,” she said. “We’re making sure it’s not an overall one-size-fits-all, but rather we’re trying to enable each individual along the way.”

by **Robert J Sakimano** Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:16 am

the Union opened back up (I believe) earlier this week. Daughter texted me yesterday and said she went in and just sat for a while.

I get Berkey not opening back up but I am glad the Union is open. I feel like it's a good step forward and each individual from the campus community can decide when is right for them to go back in.

by **tGreenWay** Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:48 am

The Rock is unchanged since the vigil, meaning the names of the three murdered are still on there. Can you imagine the reaction to the first group to paint over that? The U may as well switch that rock for another and preserve the peace.

by **DWags** Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:54 am

tGreenWay wrote:The Rock is unchanged since the vigil, meaning the names of the three murdered are still on there. Can you imagine the reaction to the first group to paint over that? The U may as well switch that rock for another and preserve the peace.

Wow, never thought of that.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:01 am

tGreenWay wrote:The Rock is unchanged since the vigil, meaning the names of the three murdered are still on there. Can you imagine the reaction to the first group to paint over that? The U may as well switch that rock for another and preserve the peace.

maybe there should be an orchestrated university effort?

much like the way the memorials were respectfully dismantled, flowers became mulch designed to fertilize the memorial trees to be planted. Signs, candles, cards, etc., were collected and cataloged by the MSU Museum.

by **tGreenWay** Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:11 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:The Rock is unchanged since the vigil, meaning the names of the three murdered are still on there. Can you imagine the reaction to the first group to paint over that? The U may as well switch that rock for another and preserve the peace.
maybe there should be an orchestrated university effort?

much like the way the memorials were respectfully dismantled, flowers became mulch designed to fertilize the memorial trees to be planted. Signs, candles, cards, etc., were collected and cataloged by the MSU Museum.

That’s pretty good. Bring people together to make the change. Something needs to be done, but no way can or should the U do it unilaterally. Do you remember the outcry after someone painted over the Princess Lacey tribute? Yikes.

by **Trapper Gus** Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:15 am

tGreenWay wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote: maybe there should be an orchestrated university effort?

much like the way the memorials were respectfully dismantled, flowers became mulch designed to fertilize the memorial trees to be planted. Signs, candles, cards, etc., were collected and cataloged by the MSU Museum.

That’s pretty good. Bring people together to make the change. Something needs to be done, but no way can or should the U do it unilaterally. Do you remember the outcry after someone painted over the Princess Lacey tribute? Yikes.

Mixed feelings, the rock is The Rock.

A permeant memorial next to The Rock, with a depiction of The Rock as painted?

A ceremonial dedication of said memorial with a symbolic cleansing of The Rock?

by **tGreenWay** Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:44 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

That’s pretty good. Bring people together to make the change. Something needs to be done, but no way can or should the U do it unilaterally. Do you remember the outcry after someone painted over the Princess Lacey tribute? Yikes.

Mixed feelings, the rock is The Rock.

A permeant memorial next to The Rock, with a depiction of The Rock as painted?

A ceremonial dedication of said memorial with a symbolic cleansing of The Rock?

I agree: It’s the Rock. University history gets painted on it and then it gets painted over. And maybe that’s what leaders want to happen, despite whatever fallout comes. But this might be the one time when something different might need to be considered. It’s understandably a much more emotional matter and, for better or worse, students today are wired differently than they were in previous generations (I would argue it’s both.) Now, what should be done is up to others. MSU made a surprisingly smart move when it announced it was gathering the flowers and other things left at the Rock. It was greeted with positive responses. I hope it can figure out the next move and let the community know what’s happening in advance instead of just surprising everyone with its intentions as it’s happening.
But if I had the president’s ear, I’d say — if you’re going to act — then act fast, because now that it’s warmer something will happen soon.

by **Trapper Gus** Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:50 am

tGreenWay wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Mixed feelings, the rock is The Rock.

A permeant memorial next to The Rock, with a depiction of The Rock as painted?

A ceremonial dedication of said memorial with a symbolic cleansing of The Rock?

I agree: It’s the Rock. University history gets painted on it and then it gets painted over. And maybe that’s what leaders want to happen, despite whatever fallout comes. But this might be the one time when something different might need to be considered. It’s understandably a much more emotional matter and, for better or worse, students today are wired differently than they were in previous generations (I would argue it’s both.) Now, what should be done is up to others. MSU made a surprisingly smart move when it announced it was gathering the flowers and other things left at the Rock. It was greeted with positive responses. I hope it can figure out the next move and let the community know what’s happening in advance instead of just surprising everyone with its intentions as it’s happening.
But if I had the president’s ear, I’d say — if you’re going to act — then act fast, because now that it’s warmer something will happen soon.

Maybe some of the youngens on the board can start a social media movement and bring it to MSU's attention, if it doesn't already exist.

by **tGreenWay** Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:01 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

I agree: It’s the Rock. University history gets painted on it and then it gets painted over. And maybe that’s what leaders want to happen, despite whatever fallout comes. But this might be the one time when something different might need to be considered. It’s understandably a much more emotional matter and, for better or worse, students today are wired differently than they were in previous generations (I would argue it’s both.) Now, what should be done is up to others. MSU made a surprisingly smart move when it announced it was gathering the flowers and other things left at the Rock. It was greeted with positive responses. I hope it can figure out the next move and let the community know what’s happening in advance instead of just surprising everyone with its intentions as it’s happening.
But if I had the president’s ear, I’d say — if you’re going to act — then act fast, because now that it’s warmer something will happen soon.

Maybe some of the youngens on the board can start a social media movement and bring it to MSU's attention, if it doesn't already exist.

Our youngest is OTPT, if I’m not mistaken, and he’s gotta be closing in on 30. Besides, he doesn’t seem like one to start a social media campaign. lol
Maybe someone on campus spies on these message boards and can relay this discussion to the appropriate folks. Or maybe a phone call would be quicker and more direct.

by **duffy munn** Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:09 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

I agree: It’s the Rock. University history gets painted on it and then it gets painted over. And maybe that’s what leaders want to happen, despite whatever fallout comes. But this might be the one time when something different might need to be considered. It’s understandably a much more emotional matter and, for better or worse, students today are wired differently than they were in previous generations (I would argue it’s both.) Now, what should be done is up to others. MSU made a surprisingly smart move when it announced it was gathering the flowers and other things left at the Rock. It was greeted with positive responses. I hope it can figure out the next move and let the community know what’s happening in advance instead of just surprising everyone with its intentions as it’s happening.
But if I had the president’s ear, I’d say — if you’re going to act — then act fast, because now that it’s warmer something will happen soon.

Maybe some of the youngens on the board can start a social media movement and bring it to MSU's attention, if it doesn't already exist.

Youngsters? This board collectively is like a thousand years old.

by **Trapper Gus** Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:15 pm

duffy munn wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Maybe some of the youngens on the board can start a social media movement and bring it to MSU's attention, if it doesn't already exist.

Youngsters? This board collectively is like a thousand years old.

lol.

yup and that is only the co9

by AvgMSUJoe Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:25 pm

I feel like a dang kid when posting here (1993 grad)...

EDIT: SHIT, its 30 DAMN YEARS. ug.

by **tGreenWay** Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:17 pm

Trapper Gus wrote:
duffy munn wrote:

Youngsters? This board collectively is like a thousand years old.

lol.

yup and that is only the co9

Cameron would like you to at least acknowledge the GBW. We don’t want him getting cranky.

by **Trapper Gus** Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:21 pm

tGreenWay wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

lol.

yup and that is only the co9

Cameron would like you to at least acknowledge the GBW. We don’t want him getting cranky.

Fair enough, that too.

He says he is an angry poster on his profile, or at least his humor is angry, so not getting him cranky might not be an option, though...

Still we love him and often give him plus votes.

by **tGreenWay** Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:24 pm

Trapper Gus wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

Cameron would like you to at least acknowledge the GBW. We don’t want him getting cranky.

Fair enough, that too.

He says he is an angry poster on his profile, or at least his humor is angry, so not getting him cranky might not be an option, though...

Still we love him and alway give him plus votes.

Keep it in your pants, Trapper. He’s nice and all, in his Oscar the Grouch way, but I’m only willing to commit to liking him.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:44 pm

AvgMSUJoe wrote:I feel like a dang kid when posting here (1993 grad)...

EDIT: SHIT, its 30 DAMN YEARS. ug.

I turn 54 this year and I don't feel a day over 58.

by **duffy munn** Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:03 pm

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
AvgMSUJoe wrote:I feel like a dang kid when posting here (1993 grad)...

EDIT: SHIT, its 30 DAMN YEARS. ug.
I turn 54 this year and I don't feel a day over 58.

My foursome tomorrow ( no khakis) is a combined 250 years old. Jingles skews the number a little by being a few years older with zero gray hair

by **DWags** Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:13 pm

duffy munn wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I turn 54 this year and I don't feel a day over 58.

My foursome tomorrow ( no khakis) is a combined 250 years old. Jingles skews the number a little by being a few years older with zero gray hair

But he has the least gray hair. So subtract 20.

by **DWags** Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:34 pm

Sounds like it’s happening at Oklahoma. Positive thoughts to those kids.

by **Trapper Gus** Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:16 am

DWags wrote:Sounds like it’s happening at Oklahoma. Positive thoughts to those kids.

Oh crap. Ban guns.

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