Making A Murderer (Now With Spoilers!)

Has anyone watched this on Netflix? I'm only two episodes in out of ten, but it has me hooked. The story of this guy, Stephen Avery is insane and pretty frightening.

I won't get into it too much because anything I could talk about would be spoilers. Basically this guy gets a wrongful conviction of sexual assault and attempted murder. He gets exonerated 18 years later, he's free for a few years, files a lawsuit against the county, and then a woman is found on his property  murdered and mostly burned.

The level of negligence involved with the local sheriff's department is staggering.

You're going to make me a murderer if you don't stop starting shitty threads.

Just kidding. I haven't watched that show yet. But I would like to.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:You're going to make me a murderer if you don't stop starting shitty threads.

Just kidding. I haven't watched that show yet. But I would like to.

Hans Solo dies.

I like it so far.

Someone talk to me about this. I don't want to read any outside articles until I'm through with the documentary. Obviously it has an agenda, but still. I'll form an opinion after the show and I read about it.

Who the fuck can I trust anymore?!

gHost Spartan wrote:I've been seeing a shit load of FB posts about this but had no clue about it.

Of course not, they weren't about you.

gHost Spartan wrote:

InTenSity wrote:
Of course not, they weren't about you.

It's an indirect self-tilt, holy shit! People react funnily to stuff posted on a message board.

I'm on...n

Occam's Razor says he did it. 

Whole family of low IQ skeezballs with priors.

see for more info: http://www.alternet.org/media/did-makers-making-murderer-leave-out-evidence-against-steven-avery

I watched the first episode. I have a feeling I will be more upset about the corruption, which led to the initial conviction, than the second conviction. Holy shit. The first conviction was not the result of incompetence. It was straight criminal.

Gomer wrote:Occam's Razor says he did it. 

Whole family of low IQ skeezballs with priors.

see for more info: http://www.alternet.org/media/did-makers-making-murderer-leave-out-evidence-against-steven-avery

Oh well, if they are low IQ, then fuck em, amirite?

I'll click your link once I'm done with the show. Thanks, bruh.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Gomer wrote:Occam's Razor says he did it. 

Whole family of low IQ skeezballs with priors.

see for more info: http://www.alternet.org/media/did-makers-making-murderer-leave-out-evidence-against-steven-avery

Oh well, if they are low IQ, then fuck em, amirite?

I'll click your link once I'm done with the show. Thanks, bruh.

Low IQ, i.e. For example, the first episode briefly discusses an incident where 20-year-old Avery pleaded guilty to harming an animal. In the series, Avery is heard saying, “We were fooling around with the cat and I don’t know, they were kind of negging it on and I tossed him over the fire and he lit up. I was young and stupid.” In reality, Avery and another man pleaded no contest to pouring gasoline and oil on Avery’s cat and throwing it into a fire.

You're not doing stupid shit like that, are you?

Black Keys Frontman Releases Song Inspired by ‘Making a Murderer’
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/07/dan-auerbach-s-the-arcs-release-song-inspired-by-making-a-murderer.html?source=twitter_page&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=568ed42904d301627b3b3a61&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter&via=twitter_page

Hurry up and finish the series assholes so I can spoiler the shit out of this thread.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Hurry up and finish the series assholes so I can spoiler the shit out of this thread.

I'm on episode 8 right now.

I'm in the minority that didn't like it much. Id give it a 7/10 because it was interesting, but a little too biased for my liking.

Re: the cat thing, he apparently doused it with gasoline and threw it in the fire. Scumbag.

Opinion on the case: likely that he or a family member did it, but there's no way he was proven guilty by the State. Thought the defense did a great job. Saddest part of the doc was Brendan. That kid got fucked hard

I'm done with it, we can all talk about it now.

I'm kinda with Wake - it was good but it did seem overly biased for it's own good. I would have liked a few different takes during the actual documentary.

I think the kid got fucked hardcore as well, his confession was absolute bullshit and can't believe that it held up in court. The Averys had no chance with all that publicity surrounding the case.

I'll have to read some more outside sources regarding the story to form a solid opinion. Anyone with some good links, I would appreciate it.

I'm just starting it so shut your whore mouths.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I'm just starting it so shut your whore mouths.

Did you get to the part where he tells Geraldo where to find Hoffa's body?

They just cracked open Al Capone's safe.

Watching first two episodes with the wife and a shit load of dancing girls right now. Hahahaha. They all think he's still guilty. Only on second episode.

I'm through episode 5, brendan that poor kid. His attorney should be throw in jail for that shit he pulled. Also the judge in Steve's second case gave the state the benefit of the doubt at every turn, plus not allowing the defense to name plausible alternate murderers.

I think Avery did it and still really liked the series. The real monster in my eyes is the Manitowoc Sheriff department. They fucked Avery over in his 1st case and I believe they planted evidence to help with a conviction in the 2nd.

Lenk and Colburn are shady as fuck. How do you miss that key lying on the floor that many times? Why did Colburn call in her licence plate before her car was found?

And yeah, Dassey's 1st lawyer was criminally incompetent. That fuck should be disbarred.

Also, how can you argue that Avery was the lone killer in his trial. Get a conviction. Then the same DA turns around and argues that Dassey killed her as well in another trial. Fuck that shit.

It was nice to see that asshole get caught in a sexting scandal. I'm in the boat of saying fuck off to everyone involved except for Avery's lawyers. Those guys were boss.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/06/making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-is-guilty-as-hell/

The majority of people here in WI believe he is guilty. The documentary is well done but one sided IMO. The Avery family men as a whole are a bunch of f'd up people and very dangerous.

OK, almost done.

I'm about 50/50 if Avery did it.  I kinda feel like one of his sketch relatives did.

They in no way came close to proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.  

That poor kid got totally railroaded (His confession was very Central Park Five-ish) and his confession was inconsistent with pretty much all of the physical evidence

Manitowoc County Police are sketchy as fuck.  How could those guys with an extreme conflict of interest be allowed to be around all of the most crucial evidence.  Even after it was determined they would not be involved.

The kid's first lawyer should go to jail, btw.  Was he a secret prosecutor or what?  Why was he always smiling?  What lawyer goes out of his way to not be there when his client is interrogated.  Also, when the kid tries to change lawyers and he says the reason is because he thinks I'm guilty, how does the judge not recuse him?  I can't think of any better reason to recuse an attorney. 


My former roommate who's from Manitwoc had this opinion  my current conclusions are that Steven probably did it (but not beyond a reasonable doubt), his nephew probably didn't, and that the Manitowoc sheriffs department most likely "adjusted" some evidence to improve chances of a conviction. I can confirm that, ever since the initial rape in 1985, there have been rumors that the Averys were a bunch of violent inbreds. My Dad knows a lot of the sheriffs and the judges that appeared in the doc, so he of course thinks the Averys are guilty.  I saw a few friends over Xmas break that also thought he's guilty, but they hadn't yet seen the documentary.

StylesGShmooth wrote:OK, almost done.

I'm about 50/50 if Avery did it.  I kinda feel like one of his sketch relatives did.

They in know way came close to proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.  

That poor did got totally railroaded (His confession was very Central Park Five-ish) and his confession was inconsistent with pretty much all of the physical evidence

Manitowoc County Police are sketchy as fuck.  How could those guys with an extreme conflict of interest be allowed to be around all of the most crucial evidence.  Even after it was determined they would not be involved.

The kid's first lawyer should go to jail, btw.  Was he a secret prosecutor or what?  Why was he always smiling?  What lawyer goes out of his way to not be there when his client is interrogated.  Also, when the kid tries to change lawyers and he says the reason is because he thinks I'm guilty, how does the judge not recuse him?  I can't think of any better reason to recuse an attorney. 


My former roommate who's from Manitwoc had this opinion  my current conclusions are that Steven probably did it (but not beyond a reasonable doubt), his nephew probably didn't, and that the Manitowoc sheriffs department most likely "adjusted" some evidence to improve chances of a conviction. I can confirm that, ever since the initial rape in 1985, there have been rumors that the Averys were a bunch of violent inbreds. My Dad knows a lot of the sheriffs and the judges that appeared in the doc, so he of course thinks the Averys are guilty.  I saw a few friends over Xmas break that also thought he's guilty, but they hadn't yet seen the documentary.

You from Manitowac ?

StylesGShmooth wrote:OK, almost done.

I'm about 50/50 if Avery did it.  I kinda feel like one of his sketch relatives did.

They in know way came close to proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.  

That poor did got totally railroaded (His confession was very Central Park Five-ish) and his confession was inconsistent with pretty much all of the physical evidence

Manitowoc County Police are sketchy as fuck.  How could those guys with an extreme conflict of interest be allowed to be around all of the most crucial evidence.  Even after it was determined they would not be involved.

The kid's first lawyer should go to jail, btw.  Was he a secret prosecutor or what?  Why was he always smiling?  What lawyer goes out of his way to not be there when his client is interrogated.  Also, when the kid tries to change lawyers and he says the reason is because he thinks I'm guilty, how does the judge not recuse him?  I can't think of any better reason to recuse an attorney. 


My former roommate who's from Manitwoc had this opinion  my current conclusions are that Steven probably did it (but not beyond a reasonable doubt), his nephew probably didn't, and that the Manitowoc sheriffs department most likely "adjusted" some evidence to improve chances of a conviction. I can confirm that, ever since the initial rape in 1985, there have been rumors that the Averys were a bunch of violent inbreds. My Dad knows a lot of the sheriffs and the judges that appeared in the doc, so he of course thinks the Averys are guilty.  I saw a few friends over Xmas break that also thought he's guilty, but they hadn't yet seen the documentary.

Damn, Shmooth, my roommate was from Manitowoc!  I thought I was the only one who heard where this thing happened and snickered!  

SpartanInNH wrote:

StylesGShmooth wrote:OK, almost done.

I'm about 50/50 if Avery did it.  I kinda feel like one of his sketch relatives did.

They in know way came close to proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.  

That poor did got totally railroaded (His confession was very Central Park Five-ish) and his confession was inconsistent with pretty much all of the physical evidence

Manitowoc County Police are sketchy as fuck.  How could those guys with an extreme conflict of interest be allowed to be around all of the most crucial evidence.  Even after it was determined they would not be involved.

The kid's first lawyer should go to jail, btw.  Was he a secret prosecutor or what?  Why was he always smiling?  What lawyer goes out of his way to not be there when his client is interrogated.  Also, when the kid tries to change lawyers and he says the reason is because he thinks I'm guilty, how does the judge not recuse him?  I can't think of any better reason to recuse an attorney. 


My former roommate who's from Manitwoc had this opinion  my current conclusions are that Steven probably did it (but not beyond a reasonable doubt), his nephew probably didn't, and that the Manitowoc sheriffs department most likely "adjusted" some evidence to improve chances of a conviction. I can confirm that, ever since the initial rape in 1985, there have been rumors that the Averys were a bunch of violent inbreds. My Dad knows a lot of the sheriffs and the judges that appeared in the doc, so he of course thinks the Averys are guilty.  I saw a few friends over Xmas break that also thought he's guilty, but they hadn't yet seen the documentary.

Damn, Shmooth, my roommate was from Manitowoc!  I thought I was the only one who heard where this thing happened and snickered!  

Come on guys. Rob Rubic, Sherm Lewis room mate and backfield running mate at MSU (who actually had more yards then Sherm till he hurt his knee in the fifth game) was the head football coach at Manitowac for years. An MSU boy, they held the nations longest winning streak in the late 80's early 90's and won state football championships there.

Rubic passed away from cancer about 6 or 7 years ago.

Ron not rob. Fat thumb

DWags wrote:

SpartanInNH wrote:

Damn, Shmooth, my roommate was from Manitowoc!  I thought I was the only one who heard where this thing happened and snickered!  

Come on guys. Rob Rubic, Sherm Lewis room mate and backfield running mate at MSU (who actually had more yards then Sherm till he hurt his knee in the fifth game) was the head football coach at Manitowac for years. An MSU boy, they held the nations longest winning streak in the late 80's early 90's and won state football championships there.

Rubic passed away from cancer about 6 or 7 years ago.

MSU HAS A CONNECTION TO THE LOCUS IN QUO!!!! CORRUPTION!!!!

Grid ace Rubick dies

‘Manistique Missile’ was also a top prep coach

By Dennis Grall POSTED: January 14, 2009

Ronn Rubick of Manistique, a legendary football player and coach, died Monday.


ESCANABA - Ronn Rubick was not a large man, but he cast a huge shadow in high school football circles.

The legendary "Manistique Missle" died Monday at Froedtert Hospital in Wauwatosa, Wis. He had been suffering from degenerative lung disease and had undergone hip replacement many years ago.

Rubick, 67, is a native of Manistique and was one of the Upper Peninsula's all-time premier football players for the Emeralds. He also set a football rushing record at Michigan State University, then won three state football championships while coaching at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wis.

"This is a big loss to our football program and especially our community," said Manistique High School football coach Todd Kangas. "Nobody is a better son to their community than Ronn Rubick was to Manistique.

"He was Manistique's favorite son. I don't think any man was more loved in his community than him. No community is more proud of him than Manistique."

Rubick was inducted into the Upper Peninsula Sports Hall of Fame in 1978 and joined the Lakeshore Sports Hall of Fame in Manitowoc in 1986.

He was a two-time coach of the year in Wisconsin and joined the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association Hall of Fame in 1999. He also was an assistant wrestling coach at Manitowoc.

He spent 32 seasons as head football coach at Lincoln, leading the Shipbuilders to three consecutive state championships (1984-86) and a state-record 48 straight victories. Rubick, whose son B.J. was on the 1983 team that started the winning streak, was 179-106-3 with the Ships.

He was 8-0 in his only season as head coach at St. Ignace LaSalle High School in 1965, then was 4-5 as head coach at Manistique in 1966 before joining the Ships as an assistant in 1967. Millage problems in Manistique prompted his decision to look for a more secure coaching position.

After retiring following the 1998 season, he became a volunteer assistant at Manistique, which re-retired his jersey (No. 33) in 2000.

"He never made me feel like we should do something his way," said Kangas. "He was always the one who rolled up his sleeves and wanted to help. Ronn was a great person to have on our staff."

The high school All-American was dubbed "The Manistique Missle" by then Daily Press sports editor Ray Crandall when he scored 184 points and ran for 1,388 yards (13.5 average) in 1959.

Rubick was more than a gridder. He was a four-year letterman in track and a three-year basketball and baseball player. He also played in the 1959 Silver Sluggers Game at Milwaukee's County Stadium, pitching one inning.

He received 48 scholarship offers and chose MSU, where he set a single-game rushing record of 207 yards while getting three TDs in 14 carries against North Carolina as a junior in 1962. The mark was later surpassed by Eric "The Flea" Allen.

Rubick, who sustained a serious knee injury in a 1962 scrimmage, played defensive back in the 1963 North-South All-Star Game. He intercepted a pass from George Mira, then turned down overtures from the Dallas Cowboys, St. Louis Cardinals and Oakland Raiders to enter coaching.

Dennis Hernet, retired sports editor of the Manitowoc Herald-Times Reporter, said Rubick was proud of that MSU record. "He always said my whole career was one game, and he laughed about that," Hernet said Tuesday in a telephone interview.

"He said everything just broke right that game, he made the right cut, he got the right block. He said 'boy, did I look like an All-American that day.'"

Art Allen of Manistique, also a UPSHF member, served as an assistant coach for Dick Bonifas with the Emeralds when Rubick first burst onto the scene. Allen later tried to stop Rubick as head coach at Newberry High School.

"I told him I helped make him all-state," Allen recalled Tuesday, noting Rubick had three touchdown runs in excess of 50 yards against the Indians as a senior. He had six TDs that day.

"I told the kids to hit him. If you get one leg, he would just jerk it away from you," said Allen. "He was a tough guy to grab a hold of and take down. He had good speed and power."

Barry Pierson, who starred at the University of Michigan and is a UPSHF member, was a senior when Rubick took over the helm at St. Ignace.

"He inherited a good team," Pierson said Tuesday. "He was smooth, easy-going and could get the most out of you. He was very positive. He didn't get rough with his players. I think he had a blast, and we did, too."

Bob Braun, an all-state fullback when Manitowoc won the 1984 state title, had a a similar recollection. Braun, Pierson and Don Davey of Manitowoc all earned high school All-American honors under Rubick.

"His demeanor stood out more than anything," said Braun. "He was very calm, always positive. The two things that stand out the most is that he never showed emotion, never showed temper or anger."

Braun said the Ships ran the wing-T and Rubick allowed his assistants to run their part of the system without interference. "I can remember the year we won the (first) state title. If we threw the ball a dozen times all year, that was a lot. He just stuck to that. He didn't change just because there was pressure to change."

Hernet recalled Rubick received fan criticism in his early years with the Ships for not turning out powerhouse teams. Hernet said he would tailor his offense and game plans to his players, rather than making the players fit a specific style.

One year Hernet said Rubick installed an option offense because he had Bob Weber as the featured runner. Weber later played at the University of Minnesota, where his son is now the quarterback.

"I always thought he got the most out of what was there early in his career," said Hernet. "After the third championship I ran into him at a grocery store and asked him how he was feeling now. He said 'it is amazing how much better I've gotten after winning three in a row.'"

Hernet said Rubick "always put the kids first, he always had that little extra time to work with them personally to make them a better person. He was a very conscientious person, he was very concerned about the welfare of people. Sometimes I think he put himself second."

Braun said Rubick put heavy emphasis on conditioning and weight training, which was not a major emphasis at that time.

"I think he had an excellent program, pushing you to train year-round from ninth grade on. He wanted to make sure his teams are good going into the fourth quarter, wear you down and keep punishing you."

Rubick also emphasized weight training upon returning home, but he stepped away the last couple of years because of health concerns. "He wasn't able to do all the things he wanted to do," said Kangas.

"The thing I learned most from him, it wasn't so much X's and O's, but he really treated people well. He was like everybody's grandfather," said Kangas, noting Rubick would share his wisdom with every player, the best person to the "hellion. He had a way of communicating with all of them.

"The special thing I learned from him was how to treat people. Nobody treated people better than he did. He was always more interested in you and how your family was doing. He was not concerned about his problems, his accomplishments," said Kangas, who visited Rubick during the holidays. "In all my time, I never heard any one person say something bad about him. He was an outstanding man."

Hernet agreed, noting "he was a genuinely caring person. He was just a great guy. He never failed to say hello, he never failed to have time to talk."

Rubick is survived by his wife, Jo-Nell, son B.J., daughter Becky and brother Seb, a former Manistique basketball coach. Services will be Friday (4-8 p.m.)at Messier-Broullire Funeral Home in Manistique and Saturday at St. Francis de Sales Catholic Church at 12:30.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-10-22/sports/8703190844_1_ship-building-question-top-ranked-teams

Stop it with your tangents, Wags.  

I think the most important thing my former roommate wanted me to know is that the Avery's property is technically in Mishicot not Manitowoc.  Doesn't want to impugn the good name of his fair town.  

The part that made me sick to my stomach was Brandon. That scumbag DA Kratz first went out with his bs press conference and poisoned the entire jury pool. Then they force upon the kid possibly the dumbest attorney on earth. Who in turn invites in his own investigator to coerce a confession out of his own client. And the judge won't allow Brandon to drop his own attorney?  The right to select counsel is one of the primary protections in the entire criminal justice system!  The confession was such garbage that the prosecutor dropped Brandon from the first trial, but then he brings him back for a second trial on a theory of the case that's inconsistent with the story that was the basis for the conviction of Steven Avery?  My head was and still is spinning. 

As for Avery, I would put it 60/40 towards guilty, based on stuff at the trial and some stuff that wasn't admissible. The fact that he recently bought the shackles. The *67 phone calls.  The request for the photographer personally. The prison stories about building a rape chamber. But that doesn't change my conclusion. Whether it's 60/40 or 40/60, that's reasonable doubt. It was also shocking to hear that the initial vote was 7 to acquit, but just a few determined jurors pushed the group to convict for murder on the false belief that a split verdict (innocent on the mutilating the corpse charge) would lead to a retrial. 

I saw an interview with the directors.  They claim they weren't interested in determining guilt or innocence, but showing the flaws in the system. Mission accomplished. This doc demonstrated in sharp relief a few things I already knew.  The resources to convict and the initial jury bias to convict are almost insurmountable. And once you lose the first trial, the appeals process is nothing but a hope and a prayer

StylesGShmooth wrote:Stop it with your tangents, Wags.  

I think the most important thing my former roommate wanted me to know is that the Avery's property is technically in Mishicot not Manitowoc.  Doesn't want to impugn the good name of his fair town.  

The part that made me sick to my stomach was Brandon. That scumbag DA Kratz first went out with his bs press conference and poisoned the entire jury pool. Then they force upon the kid possibly the dumbest attorney on earth. Who in turn invites in his own investigator to coerce a confession out of his own client. And the judge won't allow Brandon to drop his own attorney?  The right to select counsel is one of the primary protections in the entire criminal justice system!  The confession was such garbage that the prosecutor dropped Brandon from the first trial, but then he brings him back for a second trial on a theory of the case that's inconsistent with the story that was the basis for the conviction of Steven Avery?  My head was and still is spinning. 

As for Avery, I would put it 60/40 towards guilty, based on stuff at the trial and some stuff that wasn't admissible. The fact that he recently bought the shackles. The *67 phone calls.  The request for the photographer personally. The prison stories about building a rape chamber. But that doesn't change my conclusion. Whether it's 60/40 or 40/60, that's reasonable doubt. It was also shocking to hear that the initial vote was 7 to acquit, but just a few determined jurors pushed the group to convict for murder on the false belief that a split verdict (innocent on the mutilating the corpse charge) would lead to a retrial. 

I saw an interview with the directors.  They claim they weren't interested in determining guilt or innocence, but showing the flaws in the system. Mission accomplished. This doc demonstrated in sharp relief a few things I already knew.  The resources to convict and the initial jury bias to convict are almost insurmountable. And once you lose the first trial, the appeals process is nothing but a hope and a prayer

I wonder if those fuckers played football for Rubic? You know some of the cops did.

DWags wrote:

StylesGShmooth wrote:OK, almost done.

I'm about 50/50 if Avery did it.  I kinda feel like one of his sketch relatives did.

They in know way came close to proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.  

That poor did got totally railroaded (His confession was very Central Park Five-ish) and his confession was inconsistent with pretty much all of the physical evidence

Manitowoc County Police are sketchy as fuck.  How could those guys with an extreme conflict of interest be allowed to be around all of the most crucial evidence.  Even after it was determined they would not be involved.

The kid's first lawyer should go to jail, btw.  Was he a secret prosecutor or what?  Why was he always smiling?  What lawyer goes out of his way to not be there when his client is interrogated.  Also, when the kid tries to change lawyers and he says the reason is because he thinks I'm guilty, how does the judge not recuse him?  I can't think of any better reason to recuse an attorney. 


My former roommate who's from Manitwoc had this opinion  my current conclusions are that Steven probably did it (but not beyond a reasonable doubt), his nephew probably didn't, and that the Manitowoc sheriffs department most likely "adjusted" some evidence to improve chances of a conviction. I can confirm that, ever since the initial rape in 1985, there have been rumors that the Averys were a bunch of violent inbreds. My Dad knows a lot of the sheriffs and the judges that appeared in the doc, so he of course thinks the Averys are guilty.  I saw a few friends over Xmas break that also thought he's guilty, but they hadn't yet seen the documentary.

You from Manitowac ?

Nope, been there a few times but I'm very much from the DC area.

My roommate had that same Yooper-like accent everybody in the doc does when first got to college.  He worked real hard to get rid of it though.  I"m trying to convince him to go back to his roots.

DWags wrote:

StylesGShmooth wrote:Stop it with your tangents, Wags.  

I think the most important thing my former roommate wanted me to know is that the Avery's property is technically in Mishicot not Manitowoc.  Doesn't want to impugn the good name of his fair town.  

The part that made me sick to my stomach was Brandon. That scumbag DA Kratz first went out with his bs press conference and poisoned the entire jury pool. Then they force upon the kid possibly the dumbest attorney on earth. Who in turn invites in his own investigator to coerce a confession out of his own client. And the judge won't allow Brandon to drop his own attorney?  The right to select counsel is one of the primary protections in the entire criminal justice system!  The confession was such garbage that the prosecutor dropped Brandon from the first trial, but then he brings him back for a second trial on a theory of the case that's inconsistent with the story that was the basis for the conviction of Steven Avery?  My head was and still is spinning. 

As for Avery, I would put it 60/40 towards guilty, based on stuff at the trial and some stuff that wasn't admissible. The fact that he recently bought the shackles. The *67 phone calls.  The request for the photographer personally. The prison stories about building a rape chamber. But that doesn't change my conclusion. Whether it's 60/40 or 40/60, that's reasonable doubt. It was also shocking to hear that the initial vote was 7 to acquit, but just a few determined jurors pushed the group to convict for murder on the false belief that a split verdict (innocent on the mutilating the corpse charge) would lead to a retrial. 

I saw an interview with the directors.  They claim they weren't interested in determining guilt or innocence, but showing the flaws in the system. Mission accomplished. This doc demonstrated in sharp relief a few things I already knew.  The resources to convict and the initial jury bias to convict are almost insurmountable. And once you lose the first trial, the appeals process is nothing but a hope and a prayer

I wonder if those fuckers played football for Rubic? You know some of the cops did.

I guess all the Averys went to Mishicot HS, so none of them would've played for him.  My roommate did go to grade school with a few of the cops in Manitowoc before he went to private school in HS, so if those cops played at all, then they probably did.

Finished it this morning. I definitely think Brendan got screwed. Nothing I've seen or read (and I read a few articles after I finished watching because I assumed there was some bias and some stuff left out) indicates that there was any physical evidence tying Brendan to the crime. The confessions also seem obviously coerced, and Brendan seems abnormally susceptible to coercion as well. And why put him away till he's sixty? Below average 16 year old living in prison for 40 years? Any chance he does anything positive in life after that, guilty or innocent? Might as well put him away forever.

Steve I'm not so sure about. Just watching the Netflix show, he seemed innocent to me. But reading a bit about the evidence they didn't show makes me wonder. More DNA evidence in the car, the phone calls to her cell phone the day of the murder, the victim's previous visit to the Avery's, and using his sister's name rather than his own, that all seems shady to me. But then they say the jury was 7 for not guilty on first vote, having heard a couple hundred hours of testimony and evidence, that gives me pause. And I also read a couple of the jurors had connections to either the County Clerk or law enforcement in the county. Coupled with the dismissed juror indicating that a small numbers of jurors seemed to have their minds made up for guilty beforehand, makes me wonder if a couple jurors with conflicts of interest held the rest of the group hostage until they got a guilty. Strange split verdict might support that.

Knowing only what I know now, if I had to bet my life on it, I'd bet that Steve killed her, but the cops tampered with some shit to be sure they could get a conviction. I don't think the prosecution put on a strong enough case to eliminate reasonable doubt, though, so I don't think he should have been convicted. And I think the cops were trying to get Brendan to incriminate Steve, but didn't realize who they were dealing with, pushed too hard in interrogation, and accidentally made Brendan confess to a crime he didn't commit.

I would advocate for a sort of free pass for Steve, though. If he did kill her, his 18 years for a wrongful conviction certainly would have contributed to his criminal nature in a not insignificant way.

Given the somewhat flimsy case against him, what I would propose if I had power over such things is this: that 18 years, plus however long in jail during trial, that's time served. He has to leave Wisconsin, though, and wherever he moves to he gets put on probation and will be under close watch until the day he dies (both for the protection of others, and for his own protection against more false accusations). I'm talking no gun ownership, daily phone check ins, random stop-bys, that sort of thing. Make Manitowoc county foot the bill for all that shit and tell them to use the 36 million they saved from his civil case going tits up once the murder accusations happened.

Gomer wrote:Occam's Razor says he did it. 

Whole family of low IQ skeezballs with priors.

see for more info: http://www.alternet.org/media/did-makers-making-murderer-leave-out-evidence-against-steven-avery

I'm shocked, SHOCKED that you side with law enforcement.

What anazess me is that many intelligent reasonable friends of mine are coming to different conclusions. Fascinating really. And most are pretty passionate about their position. Usually one piece of evidence they will cling onto in order to justify their position.