Does this make sense?

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:22 pm

It was sent to me by "a friend". Not meaning we're gay lovers; meaning I barely know the guy.

Does this make sense? Pop10

by **Robert J Sakimano** Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:27 pm

Rocinante wrote:It was sent to me by "a friend". Not meaning we're gay lovers; meaning I barely know the guy.

I'm probably not the best person to ask because it's predicated upon me being angry.

I'm not angry about anything. I'm certainly not going to allow politicians and the mainstream media attempt to manipulate me into believing otherwise. I'm very fortunate. I live in a great country that works well for me - it might not work well for everyone - I get that. It's not without its problems - I get that, too.

But I'm quite happy and feel very fortunate - despite others trying to insist that I'm not.

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:31 pm

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Rocinante wrote:It was sent to me by "a friend". Not meaning we're gay lovers; meaning I barely know the guy.

I'm probably not the best person to ask because it's predicated upon me being angry.

I'm not angry about anything. I'm certainly not going to allow politicians and the mainstream media attempt to manipulate me into believing otherwise. I'm very fortunate. I live in a great country that works well for me - it might not work well for everyone - I get that. It's not without its problems - I get that, too.

But I'm quite happy and feel very fortunate - despite others trying to insist that I'm not.

I'm glad you're happy, Bob. The right and left populism represented by Trump and Sanders kind of has to arise from some kind of disenchantment with the status quo. I think that's where the term "anger" comes from. If you can't relate to it, that's cool. Can you intellectualize it?

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:56 pm

It didn't really make sense to me. Like, is he saying that if we don't start understanding that we have the same enemy (whoever that is) we will end up with some extreme government one way or the other?

The bottom cell or whatever is what confuses me.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:17 pm

Rocinante wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm probably not the best person to ask because it's predicated upon me being angry.

I'm not angry about anything. I'm certainly not going to allow politicians and the mainstream media attempt to manipulate me into believing otherwise. I'm very fortunate. I live in a great country that works well for me - it might not work well for everyone - I get that. It's not without its problems - I get that, too.

But I'm quite happy and feel very fortunate - despite others trying to insist that I'm not.

I'm glad you're happy, Bob. The right and left populism represented by Trump and Sanders kind of has to arise from some kind of disenchantment with the status quo. I think that's where the term "anger" comes from. If you can't relate to it, that's cool. Can you intellectualize it?

I suspect a lot of the purported "anger" that is out there is actually rooted in fear, paranoia and distrust that is perpetuated by the media.

You have a better chance of dying while sitting on your couch watching TV than you do at the hands of terrorism. But the politicians and mainstream media (the two entities that, coincidentally, stand to make money/gain power in the deal) create an environment in which people become angry, distrustful, fearful and paranoid. They, in turn, utilize those emotions and manipulate people to their advantage (or at least attempt to).

I have a right wing religious kook friend - he lives on a nice little farm in Haslett, has a lovely family - is retired, just bought a new Jeep, spends a lot of time hunting, fishing, etc - going to church. Truly has what most people would consider to be an idyllic life. He texts me about once or twice a day scared absolutely to death about ISIS, someone taking his guns/bibles, socialism, affordable healthcare, reverse racism, the gays, aborted fetuses, Muslims, etc.

The other day he made some comment about Brexit (I'm 100% certain he had never heard of Brexit until Friday) saying how England had gotten tired of living under the socialist regime in Europe and to look out for November, because the same outrage and anger coming in a Trump landslide.

Does this make sense? 502811600

I truly don't know what planet these fear-riddled people live on. But life is good - turn off the TV and corporate media conglomerate long enough to go do some stuff and enjoy life.

(but that's just me.. what do I know? Maybe I'm blissfully unaware of the horror that awaits).

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:20 pm

Bob is spot on. Where's goose and his paranoia!?

Love,
Bobs parrot

by **Robert J Sakimano** Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:23 pm

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Bob is spot on. Where's goose and his paranoia!?

Love,
Bobs parrot

Goose is probably outside driving around some sort of all terrain vehicle.. eating ice cream.. maybe about to sit down in a nylon lawn chair underneath a shade tree.. or go have some elastic installed in the waist band of his jean shorts. Maybe getting ready to grill some sort of tubed meat.

Regardless, I bet we're gonna hear about how happy he is. He's really going to be vocal about it, too. Probably emphasizing his happiness (which is most assured) with obscenities.. Does this make sense? 502811600

by **DWags** Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:41 pm

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Rocinante wrote:It was sent to me by "a friend". Not meaning we're gay lovers; meaning I barely know the guy.

I'm probably not the best person to ask because it's predicated upon me being angry.

I'm not angry about anything. .

But I'm quite happy and feel very fortunate - despite others trying to insist that I'm not.

Do you believe the stuff you write about yourself, or do you just want to be the guy you write about?

I wouldn't worry though.

by **DWags** Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:44 pm

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Bob is spot on. Where's goose and his paranoia!?

Love,
Bobs parrot

Regardless, I bet we're gonna hear about how happy he is. He's really going to be vocal about it, too. Probably emphasizing his happiness (which is most assured) with obscenities..

Can you imagine somebody in this thread telling people how happy they are? Bob, in one post you insist on telling us how fucking happy you are. How others will insist you're not. Then, I'll be damned, just a couple posts down, you are saying how you won't believe someone else is happy. You are, by far, the biggest hypocrite i've ever encountered, but even you have to have some kind of limit before you hit the send button.

Does this make sense? 502811600

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:46 pm

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Bob is spot on. Where's goose and his paranoia!?

Love,
Bobs parrot

Bob is a lot like a politician in that he defaults to his talking points even when the subject is only remotely related.

Fear =/= Anger. Also populist anger on the left and right, I think at least, is rooted in people believing they are not getting value for their labor, which is borne out in the statistics on income inequality.

I feel like that's what my friend is getting at with this, because when we do talk (rarely, except through facebook) that's what he talks about.

by **Watch Out Pylon!** Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:51 pm

Rocinante wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Bob is spot on. Where's goose and his paranoia!?

Love,
Bobs parrot

Bob is a lot like a politician in that he defaults to his talking points even when the subject is only remotely related.

Fear =/= Anger. Also populist anger on the left and right, I think at least, is rooted in people believing they are not getting value for their labor, which is borne out in the statistics on income inequality.

I feel like that's what my friend is getting at with this, because when we do talk (rarely, except through facebook) that's what he talks about.

Is he the kind of guy that posts nothing but political bullshit on Facebook? Can't stand those people.

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:57 pm

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Bob is a lot like a politician in that he defaults to his talking points even when the subject is only remotely related.

Fear =/= Anger. Also populist anger on the left and right, I think at least, is rooted in people believing they are not getting value for their labor, which is borne out in the statistics on income inequality.

I feel like that's what my friend is getting at with this, because when we do talk (rarely, except through facebook) that's what he talks about.

Is he the kind of guy that posts nothing but political bullshit on Facebook? Can't stand those people.

Yes. The only reason I don't unfollow him is because occasionally he's really funny and he gives good obscure movie recommendations.

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:01 pm

I told him it needed work. Now he wants specifics. Over email. I never use email for anything except work.

by **Turtleneck** Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:25 pm

Well...

1) The right side of the image ends with fascism leading to authoritarianism. Fascism requires totalitarian rule. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism are not the same type of rule.

2) The right side of the image implies nationalism always evolves into fascism. That is not always the case. Though fascists are always nationalists, nationalists are not always fascists. Throughout world history, there have been healthy expressions of nationalism opposite of the way we conceptualize nationalism today. Even if nationalism tends to lead to authoritarian rule, and that is often the case, authoritarianism is distinct from totalitarianism.

3) On the left side, there needs to be a distinction between socialism and state socialism. What does state socialism look like and how is it different?

4) The left side also ignores the reality of social democratic rule. This is where liberal democratic freedoms and market economies are blended with social welfare policies (and some state ownership).

5) Both sides do not present a fully accurate picture of who is being blamed. Yes, fascism rejects democratic government and liberalism (both progressively and classically liberal). However, who fascism blames for political, social, and economic failure - fascism is an ideology of grievances - usually extends beyond government. I suppose it is more accurate in respect to socialism, but social democratic rule does not use blame as a justification for heavy handed government that denies basic liberal freedoms. The middle circle is odd and does not flow from the rest of the image. The supposed blame is distinct between the right and left is different. But I don't know. It has been a long day and my brain is foggy. Hopefully this coffee will get me going. Good luck with your project, Roc.

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:34 pm

I'm forwarding your comments and passing them of as mine so he doesn't know I posted it.. I suspect it will piss him off. Either that or I will get a much more elaborate flow chart. Week update you later.

by **Turtleneck** Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:48 pm

Rocinante wrote:I'm forwarding your comments and passing them of as mine so he doesn't know I posted it.. I suspect it will piss him off. Either that or I will get a much more elaborate flow chart. Week update you later.

The outcomes of socialist rule are not set in stone, while fascism must use totalitarian rule and physical violence to position the state as the carrier and protector of national values. Socialism and fascism do not have to end at the same place.

by **Rocinante** Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:58 pm

I think it's supposed to be a statement, not like a graphic for a textbook. That's why I said the bottom part confuses me.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:54 am

DWags wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Regardless, I bet we're gonna hear about how happy he is. He's really going to be vocal about it, too. Probably emphasizing his happiness (which is most assured) with obscenities..

Can you imagine somebody in this thread telling people how happy they are? Bob, in one post you insist on telling us how fucking happy you are. How others will insist you're not. Then, I'll be damned, just a couple posts down, you are saying how you won't believe someone else is happy. You are, by far, the biggest hypocrite i've ever encountered, but even you have to have some kind of limit before you hit the send button.

because I'm the one that logs on, screams obscenities at people, blames women for being raped, advocate that people who I disagree with be banned, promote assault rifles for terrorists, live my life terrified of brown people, etc. All while insisting to anyone that will listen how happy I am.

and I'm the angry one. Does this make sense? 502811600

Got it.

my thoughts and prayers are with you during this difficult time and, as always, Go Green!

by Guest Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:15 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:because I'm the one that logs on, screams obscenities at people, blames women for being raped, advocate that people who I disagree with be banned, promote assault rifles for terrorists, live my life terrified of brown people, etc. All while insisting to anyone that will listen how happy I am.
and I'm the angry one.
Got it.
my thoughts and prayers are with you during this difficult time and, as always, Go Green!

You sound stressed Bob, I think a nice vacation up north would help you.

Does this make sense? Campfire-cooking-for-preppers

by **Robert J Sakimano** Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:01 am

LooseGoose wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:because I'm the one that logs on, screams obscenities at people, blames women for being raped, advocate that people who I disagree with be banned, promote assault rifles for terrorists, live my life terrified of brown people, etc. All while insisting to anyone that will listen how happy I am.
and I'm the angry one.
Got it.
my thoughts and prayers are with you during this difficult time and, as always, Go Green!

You sound stressed Bob, I think a nice vacation up north would help you.

you're right..

maybe we can sit around and laugh at rape victims together.. sound good?? I'll bring the processed meats. Does this make sense? 969504605

by **DWags** Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:31 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

You sound stressed Bob, I think a nice vacation up north would help you.

you're right..

maybe we can sit around and laugh at rape victims together.. sound good?? I'll bring the processed meats.

Yep, this poster is a happy man right here.

Does this make sense? 502811600

by **Robert J Sakimano** Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:36 am

DWags wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:you're right..

maybe we can sit around and laugh at rape victims together.. sound good?? I'll bring the processed meats.

Yep, this poster is a happy man right here.

you're a great American and a supporter of fine MSU scholar-athletes. GO GREEN!

by **xsanguine** Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:40 am

by **Robert J Sakimano** Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:41 am

xsanguine wrote:Lol

by Guest Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:05 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

You sound stressed Bob, I think a nice vacation up north would help you.

you're right..

maybe we can sit around and laugh at rape victims together.. sound good?? I'll bring the processed meats.

Don't know Bob, I've never laughed at a rape victim in my life. You conjure up some disturbing lies.

by **DWags** Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:19 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
DWags wrote:

Yep, this poster is a happy man right here.

you're a great American and a supporter of fine MSU scholar-athletes. GO GREEN!

Change that subject...... you really aren't an angry man...... just ask you.

Does this make sense? 502811600

Bob, after careful deliberation, much thought, the lifestyle your forced to live, I'm guessing you could be one of the most fucked up angry posters we have. The best part is you don't understand that.

It's why it's so great to have you here.

cheers

by **Robert J Sakimano** Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:23 am

DWags wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:

you're a great American and a supporter of fine MSU scholar-athletes. GO GREEN!

Change that subject...... you really aren't an angry man...... just ask you.

Bob, after careful deliberation, much thought, the lifestyle your forced to live, I'm guessing you could be one of the most fucked up angry posters we have. The best part is you don't understand that.

It's why it's so great to have you here.

thanks, dude - happy to be here where I can (almost.. with only offending a few people) participate in the time-honored tradition of free speech and share memories with people who enjoy MSU athletics as much as I do.

it's great to have you here, too.. Does this make sense? 969504605

by **Rocinante** Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:55 am

Here you go TN. Thanks. Now he'll send me an updated version, I'm sure. When it goes viral, you can say you were part of that.

Does this make sense? 3434560931

[My Name],

I'm formulating a simple illustration that considers that keeping the masses (right and left) at each other's throats serves the status quo, which serves the "elite." You are asking for it to be more complicated than it needs to be. I addressed your comments below.

Well...

1) The right side of the image ends with fascism leading to authoritarianism. Fascism requires totalitarian rule. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism are not the same type of rule.

Totalitarianism is a subset of authoritarianism. Even if there's more lengthy grandiloquence that I could employ, I'm trying to be succinct here. I think this is fine. When did you become so literal?

2) The right side of the image implies nationalism always evolves into fascism. That is not always the case. Though fascists are always nationalists, nationalists are not always fascists. Throughout world history, there have been healthy expressions of nationalism opposite of the way we conceptualize nationalism today. Even if nationalism tends to lead to authoritarian rule, and that is often the case, authoritarianism is distinct from totalitarianism.

The right side doesn't imply that. There's nothing that says "always". I'm not defining all the divisions of nationalism. I'm making a point about the nationalist discourse in the U.S. coming from the right and the socialist conversation coming from the left. They have the same root, which is the disenfranchisement of the base (figuratively, not literally, [My Name]) on both sides. And I already responded to your last point.

3) On the left side, there needs to be a distinction between socialism and state socialism. What does state socialism look like and how is it different?

State Socialism (n): the theory, doctrine, and movement advocating a planned economy controlled by the state, with state ownership of all industries and natural resources. Socialism (n): a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. One is an idea the other is its implication. Like Nationalism and Fascism. The progression is not inevitable, but it is possible. That's all I'm saying, and its part of a holistic statement. More definition will not make the point.

4) The left side also ignores the reality of social democratic rule. This is where liberal democratic freedoms and market economies are blended with social welfare policies (and some state ownership).

I'm ignoring that possibility because this isn't a flow chart, it's a diagram. Splitting the next one up.

5) Both sides do not present a fully accurate picture of who is being blamed. Yes, fascism rejects democratic government and liberalism (both progressively and classically liberal). However, who fascism blames for political, social, and economic failure - fascism is an ideology of grievances - usually extends beyond government. I suppose it is more accurate in respect to socialism, but social democratic rule does not use blame as a justification for heavy handed government that denies basic liberal freedoms.

I don't think more definition is needed.

6) The middle circle is odd and does not flow from the rest of the image. The supposed blame is distinct between the right and left is different.

Agree. It should imply more directly that the "blame" is offered by the "elite" to set people against one another for the benefit of the status quo. The meaning not being clear to you tells me it needs work, even if most of your comments miss the point. Thanks.

Are you making a meme?

Yes. It's how you get a point across on social media. Make something simple that resonates and get people to share it. Maybe I should just give a speech wearing a growling Chewbacca mask.

[His Name]

by **Turtleneck** Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:04 pm

1) Totalitarianism is not a subset of authoritarianism. You can be succinct and accurate. Totalitarianism is usually ideological and clearly implies total control, while authoritarianism is not ideological and does not imply total control. In terms of typology they are not the same.

2) If he is not implying that he should lose the arrows. The arrows suggest a trajectory. I feel like he is on the right track by starting with populism. However, he is missing a key point: to a certain extent it is a nationalist sentiment that is fueling both sides. Both the right and left side of populism have rejected the current way we do business in the global economy and embraced economic nationalism. It is the reason why that differs, and that is not captured in the image. On the left it is for the reason of equality and environmental justice, while on the right it is because it has weakened the strength of the nation. I would suggest working that into the image somehow.

3) Dictionary definitions are always problematic, but they make sense in this case. I guess he wants to be as orthodox as possible so that is why he discounts social democracy in favor of traditional socialist rule. He is being parsimonious and that is perfectly fine.

4) It does not feel accurate. However, it is hard to tell because the final point and what is inside the circles are not entirely clear. Yet this is the kind of thing that gets passed around the Internet like crazy. The Internet loves anything that says FASCISM. The Internet thinks everything is fascist, which then makes it hard to identify actual fascists. Overall, I think he might be doing a lot of work to simply say people are being manipulated by elites and populism leads to some form of oppressive government.

by **Rocinante** Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:11 pm

2) If he is not implying that he should lose the arrows. The arrows suggest a trajectory. I feel like he is on the right track by starting with populism. However, he is missing a key point: to a certain extent it is a nationalist sentiment that is fueling both sides. Both the right and left side of populism have rejected the current way we do business in the global economy and embraced of economic nationalism. It is the reason why that differ, and that is not captured in the image. On the left it is for reason of equality and environmental justice, while on the right it is because it has weakened the strength of the nation. I would suggest working that into the image somehow.

I agree with everything you said, and I like this point.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Turtleneck wrote:1) Totalitarianism is not a subset of authoritarianism. You can be succinct and accurate. Totalitarianism is usually ideological and clearly implies total control, while authoritarianism is not ideological. In terms of typology they are not the same.

2) If he is not implying that he should lose the arrows. The arrows suggest a trajectory. I feel like he is on the right track by starting with populism. However, he is missing a key point: to a certain extent it is a nationalist sentiment that is fueling both sides. Both the right and left side of populism have rejected the current way we do business in the global economy and embraced of economic nationalism. It is the reason why that differ, and that is not captured in the image. On the left it is for reason of equality and environmental justice, while on the right it is because it has weakened the strength of the nation. I would suggest working that into the image somehow.

3) Dictionary definitions are always problematic, but they make sense in this case. I guess he wants to be as orthodox as possible so that is why he discounts social democracy in favor of traditional socialist rule. He is being parsimonious and that is perfectly fine.

4) It does not feel accurate. However, it is hard to tell because the final point and what is inside the circles are not entirely clear. Yet this is the kind of thing that gets passed around the Internet like crazy. The Internet loves anything that says FASCISM. The Internet thinks everything is fascist, which then makes it hard to identify actual fascists. Overall, I think he might be doing a lot of work to simply say people are being manipulated by elites and populism leads to some form of oppressive government.

that makes perfect sense.

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