The Swill Bin Religion thread

[Cameron]

Let's have a conversation about religion. The older I get, the more childish religiousity seems to me. But there are plenty of adult human beings with (more or less) fully functioning brains who attend religious services regularly and sincerely believe that all that stuff is real, some of whom surely post here.

Came across this video recently, I'd be curious to hear a religious person's response to it, because ol' Sam is preaching to the choir (so to speak) as far as I'm concerned.


I realize that focuses on Christianity specifically, but this thread is meant to be about any and all religions. If you're a Christian who would prefer to stick to bashing Islam and scientology (and ignore my posts about Christianity), I'm more than happy to join in. I'm an equal opportunty athiest in that way.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

They're all shams. This world would be so much better off if there were no religion whatsoever. The atrocities carried out in the name of religion is appalling.

[DWags]

I have all those same questions. I take the Bible as allegorical in some aspects. How you should live your life. I'm not a die hard believer, but have seen things happen in my immediate family that a doctor couldn't explain fully. So you raise an eyebrow and kind of wonder but you know pretty much everything everything can be explained. At some point you just say fuck it I don't need an explanation I'm good. I go to my church semi regularly but I like the people there. My wife goes because she's pretty spiritual. But I have nothing against the church I go to because they do some unbelievable great things for the homeless, battered women and abused children. They're people of action and they aren't light the tight ass hypocrites who rail against abortion and social programs but don't do shit about anything. I actually have real hate and disgust for those people.

But the church I go to does the work. Makes a difference. So, who cares if there's a God that lets you in a place that has an endless supply of tacos beer and football games at the end of your life. If there's a place in your community that gathers activist people who do good things and make this life better for abused downtrodden people and they call themselves a church I could care less. It's doing good. I fully realize some churches do shitty things too. Bitching about two people who love each other but are of the same sex shit like that. Fuck them.

[Guest]

Am religious in the sense I believe there is a God.   Haven't been to a church service in 20+ years.   Despise almost all organized religion that I've been in contact with.   Churches are full of hypocrites and I can't stand hypocrisy.  "Professional" Christians - Pastors, Youth Pastors, Evangelists, etc, etc make me ill.   I imagine there are some good churches out there, I never found one and now don't feel the need to bother looking.

[Cameron]

Which group is dumber and more gullible, Mormons or Scientologists?

[Tim Wakefield]

I'd describe myself as mildly religious. I go to church when I visit home because my parents go and i don't hate it. I guess I just don't give it much thought.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Atheist checking in. I do not believe there is a specific "god" or any for that matter.. That makes me an atheist, right? I feel like I have heard contradicting things. In the end, I don't care all that much. I meditate but I do not pray.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Without hitting the google machine? Where the hell have you learned all of your shit from, Antine? The bible and YouTube?

Like I said, "I don't care all that much". I live my life as best I can, being a decent person. My answer to your first question after I googled it, because evolution is not linear. Also - humans are not the end of the chain. I don't think there is an end to the chain, ya know, because we are still here.

You seem to be correlating the big bang theory = no god. I don't think that's what people are saying. In the end, I'm going to die and that will be it. Why worry about shit like this if we are all going to end up in the same place, bones or burned? Well wait - you probably believe in some after-life then? I do not. I think you die and.. you die. I won't know, because I'll be dead. Like before we were born!

[xsanguine]

Sam Harris is one of the most articulate speakers. When he debates people, it's just not fair.

[xsanguine]

Atheist checking in. I do not believe there is a specific "god" or any for that matter.. That makes me an atheist, right? I feel like I have heard contradicting things. In the end, I don't care all that much. I meditate but I do not pray.

All you need to be an atheist is lack belief in a deity.

It's the Atheists that have an entire belief system dedicated to the first statement.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Atheist checking in. I do not believe there is a specific "god" or any for that matter.. That makes me an atheist, right? I feel like I have heard contradicting things. In the end, I don't care all that much. I meditate but I do not pray.

All you need to be an atheist is lack belief in a deity.

It's the Atheists that have an entire belief system dedicated to the first statement.

Works for me, x.

[Robert J Sakimano]

one thing is clear - pretty much every negative aspect in society across the world is somehow rooted in religion.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

one thing is clear - pretty much every negative aspect in society across the world is somehow rooted in religion.

What religion was rooted in Columbine?  Sandy Hook?  Hurricane Sandy?  petty crime?  victimless crimes?  Robbery, murder, extortion...?  Wall Street?  High healthcare costs?  High education costs?

9/11? ISIS? The holocaust? Westboro Baptist Church? Boston Marathon Bombing? Treatment of homosexuals?

[Rocinante]

I love Unitarian Universalists. They are the only group that openly advocates and lives Jesus' edicts.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

9/11? ISIS? The holocaust? Westboro Baptist Church? Boston Marathon Bombing? Treatment of homosexuals?

So I showed 10 examples against religion being involved and you showed 6 examples of religion being involved.  How does that support the claim that "pretty much EVERY negative aspect in society across the world is rooted in religion"?

BTW Westboro's leader was a Democrat FWIW

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/westboro-baptist-church-leader-fred-phelps-democrat

And you should look into the Holocaust objectively, you'll be surprised at what you discover

http://www.rense.com/general69/dim.htm

I could have kept going pretty much forever. I have work to do though.

[AnomanderRake]

Without hitting the google machine? Where the hell have you learned all of your shit from, Antine? The bible and YouTube?

Like I said, "I don't care all that much". I live my life as best I can, being a decent person. My answer to your first question after I googled it, because evolution is not linear. Also - humans are not the end of the chain. I don't think there is an end to the chain, ya know, because we are still here.

You seem to be correlating the big bang theory = no god. I don't think that's what people are saying. In the end, I'm going to die and that will be it. Why worry about shit like this if we are all going to end up in the same place, bones or burned? Well wait - you probably believe in some after-life then? I do not. I think you die and.. you die. I won't know, because I'll be dead. Like before we were born!

What I meant by not hitting up the google machine was that I was looking to see your current knowledge of it. Of course that's the best way to research things. I was just curious if you could give me a brief, logical explanation of the reason for this anomaly without looking it up.

So evolution is not linear. Seems pretty ambiguous for a theory that's considered the best due to its scientific nature.

So you think we humans might evolve into something else? Seems pretty strange that it hasn't happened in thousands of years....oh wait, I forgot evolution is linear. Seriously though, what do you think humans might possibly evolve into? Maybe grow some wings and be able to fly one day?

Big Bang doesn't equal no god? I thought atheists don't believe in a god? Most atheists I know subscribe to the theory of Big Bang and don't believe in a god, so I disagree with your assessment that Big Bang doesnt mean no god.

Without a doubt I believe in an afterlife. And I will until the Bible's prophesies cease to come true.

"In the end, I'm going to die and that will be it" Well you may not have to if you don't want to depending on your age. Research the Avatar project. This is real life, not a conspiracy theory. Lots of fucked up shit going on in this world that the mainstream media isn't reporting on

Apes and Humans evolved from a common ancestor. Evolution is not linear, and takes place over millions of years, not thousands.

Some religious people believe in the big bang or other theories of creation, but simultaneously believe that it was their god that set the Universe in motion. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive for many people.

You make rather conclusive claims for someone with astonishingly little knowledge of the science that shapes people's beliefs.

[xsanguine]

Sam Harris is one of the most articulate speakers. When he debates people, it's just not fair.

Isn't Obama ( 58 states, claimed Austrian is a language, etc) articulate too?

Obama is an exceptional public speaker but he's had some gaffes (everyone does). I haven't given much thought to Sam Harris in terms of how he commands an audience but moreso referring to his approach to a topic in addition to vernacular.

Obama seems to have a little bit more trouble outside of a script. That's not a slight towards him mind you. It can be tough finding the right words to articulate your point on the fly.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

I love Unitarian Universalists.  They are the only group that openly advocates and lives Jesus' edicts.

All of the Protestant groups do, or at least most of them.  Obviously you're gonna have your outliers, but speaking in general terms here.  This might be the point where you will mention them hating on gay people.  But on the contrary, within their belief system they are actually looking out for the best interests of gay people as the Bible tells them that gay people will not inherit the Kingdom of God.  

As a former Catholic I have no problem admitting I've been duped by their phony religion that worships pagan idols, that engage in numerous acts that directly contradict the Bible.  How can they call themselves Christian when they do this?  Even the new Pope says atheists can get to Heaven ( sorry guys, the only people getting into heaven are those who believe in the Father and Son but it's never too late, that's the good news!) and other blasphemous statements.  I'm gonna go deep on you now and tell you that the Vatican is the Anti-Christ as its the only entity that meets all 11 characteristics.  When you come to accept the truth that the Vatican is the Anti-Christ and you understand that the Founding Fathers recreated DC into the Vatican....well, need I say more?  

What about people who once believed this, but later in life changed their mind? I have never gotten a good answer on Christianity's take-backsies policy.

[MiamiSpartan]

Atheist checking in. I do not believe there is a specific "god" or any for that matter.. That makes me an atheist, right? I feel like I have heard contradicting things. In the end, I don't care all that much. I meditate but I do not pray.

So I take it you believe in evolution? Without hitting up the google machine can you explain to me why monkeys still exist today if they are part of the evolutionary chain that transitions to the end of the chain, humans?

Also if everything is just random, how is it that each individual human has their own DNA?

Yes it may seem strange to believe in the story of creation and stories like Noah's ark, but the alternative that is supposed to be more palatable involves a giant rock exploding billions of years ago ( exactly how the hell can that be measured anyways???) and eventually created fish which eventually transformed into a human. In other words everything was created out of nothing. How can anything be created out of nothing? So who created the rock that exploded?

You mean like how God created everything out of nothing?

[AnomanderRake]

Apes and Humans evolved from a common ancestor. Evolution is not linear, and takes place over millions of years, not thousands.

Some religious people believe in the big bang or other theories of creation, but simultaneously believe that it was their god that set the Universe in motion. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive for many people.

You make rather conclusive claims for someone with astonishingly little knowledge of the science that shapes people's beliefs.

Ahh, it's not linear.  Seems to be the common answer.  So whatever happens, you have an explanation for it because it can never be disproven since it's "non-linear".  I mean how can one argue against that LOL

So you think biologically ( not talking about transhumanism) humans will be transforming into another creature a million years down the road?  

I mean like you said I have astonishingly little knowledge of science, but shouldn't there be a genetic code that explains why some apes become humans while others remain apes?  Since it's non-linear I assume that also means some humans will remain as humans and others will evolve into these super humans.  Will us humans who don't change become enslaved and if so how do you think we should best prepare for this?  And since I'm scientifically deficient perhaps in your expertise you could explain to me how your theory of the origination of life is valid even though it contradicts the law of biogenesis...

The theory of evolution does not attempt to explain the origins of life, only biodiversity and changes in living organisms over time. This is why creationism and evolution are not mutually exclusive.

Evolution is non-linear in the sense that it is based on genetic mutation.

The most simple explanation I can offer....2 parents give birth to a baby, this baby has a genetic mutation that makes them more likely to survive. This baby passes this trait on to its offspring. Rinse and repeat for millions of years and eventually enough mutations take place that you now have 2 significantly different species, possibly more than 2.

Assuming new species don't kill their ancestors off, you now have multiple species with a common ancestor.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Antine I think the next steps are genetically engineered humans bro. We won't gain wings anytime soon. But we as a race are not done yet.

[MiamiSpartan]

They're all shams. This world would be so much better off if there were no religion whatsoever. The atrocities carried out in the name of religion is appalling.

TBF, the same atrocities would have happened one way or another anyway. Organized religion is really just about power. If someone isn't using religion to wield power, they (or someone like them) would wield power through another means (government, military, etc.). It might not be Group A committing atrocities against Group B, but instead it might be Group C committing atrocities against Group B. People are assholes. People that love holding power over other people are even bigger assholes.

For the most part, religions provide a guide for people on how to live their life and be a good person. Whether you believe it's real or not, if you adhere to the teachings, you'll make the world a better place. But enterprising people have always realized that this makes the followers ripe for manipulation. Being able to manipulate others give you power. At the end of the day, it's about power, whether that's derived from a perceived god(s), a government, a birthright, etc.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

They're all shams. This world would be so much better off if there were no religion whatsoever. The atrocities carried out in the name of religion is appalling.

TBF, the same atrocities would have happened one way or another anyway.  Organized religion is really just about power.  If someone isn't using religion to wield power, they (or someone like them) would wield power through another means (government, military, etc.).  It might not be Group A committing atrocities against Group B, but instead it might be Group C committing atrocities against Group B.  People are assholes.  People that love holding power over other people are even bigger assholes.  

For the most part, religions provide a guide for people on how to live their life and be a good person.  Whether you believe it's real or not, if you adhere to the teachings, you'll make the world a better place.  But enterprising people have always realized that this makes the followers ripe for manipulation.  Being able to manipulate others give you power.  At the end of the day, it's about power, whether that's derived from a perceived god(s), a government, a birthright, etc.

I can't agree with this statement. Yes, shitty things will still take place in the world, but I don't think they'd happen nearly as much or to such a severe degree.

I'll use ISIS as one example. They would not exist if Islam didn't exist. Most religions find a sympathetic ear to the poor or seemingly forgotten masses. I'm using a broad brush here, but for the most part this is true. Most of the middle east is a shit sandwich right now. I do believe there would be pockets of freedom fighters, or whatever label you'd like to put on them, fighting against oppressive regimes or Israel (which was founded on another religious based genocide). But I do not think you would get the organization or the cash flow to support terrorist groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS without using religion as your foundation.

[Robert J Sakimano]

one thing is clear - pretty much every negative aspect in society across the world is somehow rooted in religion.

What religion was rooted in Columbine?  Sandy Hook?  Hurricane Sandy?  petty crime?  victimless crimes?  Robbery, murder, extortion...?  Wall Street?  High healthcare costs?  High education costs?

if you asked republicans, the United States was founded on christian values.

so... christian.

[MiamiSpartan]

TBF, the same atrocities would have happened one way or another anyway.  Organized religion is really just about power.  If someone isn't using religion to wield power, they (or someone like them) would wield power through another means (government, military, etc.).  It might not be Group A committing atrocities against Group B, but instead it might be Group C committing atrocities against Group B.  People are assholes.  People that love holding power over other people are even bigger assholes.  

For the most part, religions provide a guide for people on how to live their life and be a good person.  Whether you believe it's real or not, if you adhere to the teachings, you'll make the world a better place.  But enterprising people have always realized that this makes the followers ripe for manipulation.  Being able to manipulate others give you power.  At the end of the day, it's about power, whether that's derived from a perceived god(s), a government, a birthright, etc.

I can't agree with this statement. Yes, shitty things will still take place in the world, but I don't think they'd happen nearly as much or to such a severe degree.

I'll use ISIS as one example. They would not exist if Islam didn't exist. Most religions find a sympathetic ear to the poor or seemingly forgotten masses. I'm using a broad brush here, but for the most part this is true. Most of the middle east is a shit sandwich right now. I do believe there would be pockets of freedom fighters, or whatever label you'd like to put on them, fighting against oppressive regimes or Israel (which was founded on another religious based genocide). But I do not think you would get the organization or the cash flow to support terrorist groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS without using religion as your foundation.

I agree with what you said, but I didn't mean that the same organizations would do the same things. But that's my fault for not writing clearly. Looking back at my post, I didn't phrase it correctly when I said that the "same atrocities would take place".

I didn't mean literally the same thing would be done to the same people by the same assholes, but rather in the bigger picture, someone else would be carrying the mantle of assholeness. Maybe not in the same time or place, but over time, it would even out. History does not have a shortage of atrocities committed by secular states or groups and I don't believe that without religion the number/severity of those secular atrocities would have remained flat, while only the religious atrocities disappeared. Something else, another nation state, a revolutionary, etc., would have filled that gap.

Using the ISIS example, it's true that they wouldn't exist without Islam. But what might exist in its place? How do borders, alliances, etc. differ in the Middle East if there were no Islam? The sects of Islam that dominate(d) some of the countries there impacted those things. Without fighting among the Arabs, perhaps there is an Arab super state. Maybe it would bring peace to the world. Maybe it would bring devastation. Maybe something in between. The historical "what if" game is a rabbit hole that one could get lost in forever, but I just feel that assholes will find a way to manipulate people in their quest for power. Religion is one tool for that. But there are plenty of secular tools, as well.

[Cameron]

I was hoping for a religious person who wasn't obviously crazy to participate in this discussion, but you make do with what you've got, I suppose...

(Also, I am realizing as I write this post that this thread is dangerously close turning into a full on debate about evolution, which would be a matter for a separate thread as evolution is not a religion. So after this post I will probably attempt to refrain from discussing evolution to focus on the topic at hand, and I would encourage others to do the same.)

The problem with atheists is that they claim scientific superiority even though their THEORY about how the earth was created contradicts the LAW of Biogenesis.  

The other big problem with atheists is that they always look at organized religion instead of actually reading and understanding the Bible.  All it takes is a few hours of research to discover that the Vatican is a fake religion and this is EASILY provable and this fake religion created the fake religions of Judaism and Islam in order to try to overtake Jerusalem.  You know how this is correct?  It's because Christians are ALWAYS the #1 target even though they're the only true religion in this world.  This is by design.  Everyone who believes the Bible as written are referred to as "fundamentalists", a negative connotation.  Just like Muslim "fundamentalists" except those fundamentalists kill people or make their wives always walk behind them....There are a LOT of atheists who looked into the Flat Earth theory and have converted to Christianity, or at least acknowledging the God of the Bible exists.  All of the Bible's prophesies have come true so far.  People who believe in the Bible are righteous individuals.  It's the disinfo agents like Hagee and Robertson who gets bankrolled by the Zionists who make Christians out to be nutjobs.  There is nothing in the Bible that should be allowing for Christians to support Israel

RE: Law of Biogenesis, since you keep bringing it up. http://asktheatheist.com/?tag=law-of-biogenesis That link explains it more clearly than I probably could. If you look into the elemental composition of the universe, and then compare it to the elemental composition of biological life here on earth, you see that (aside from Helium) the most common elements in the universe are the most common elements in biological life, in similar ratios.

RE: Organized Religion vs. actually reading and understanding the Bible, I take it that you believe the the Bible is literally true and the inerrant word of the creator of the universe? I hope so, that's easier to argue against than someone who picks and chooses which parts they believe.

Atheist checking in. I do not believe there is a specific "god" or any for that matter.. That makes me an atheist, right? I feel like I have heard contradicting things. In the end, I don't care all that much. I meditate but I do not pray.

So I take it you believe in evolution?  Without hitting up the google machine can you explain to me why monkeys still exist today if they are part of the evolutionary chain that transitions to the end of the chain, humans?

Also if everything is just random, how is it that each individual human has their own DNA?

Yes it may seem strange to believe in the story of creation and stories like Noah's ark, but the alternative that is supposed to be more palatable involves a giant rock exploding billions of years ago ( exactly how the hell can that be measured anyways???) and eventually created fish which eventually transformed into a human.  In other words everything was created out of nothing.  How can anything be created out of nothing?  So who created the rock that exploded?

This has already been responded to, but I'll reiterate. Calling humans the "end of the chain" and wondering why monkeys still exists demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of evolution. Evolution is not directed and it's not on a path. Humans are not the end, but merely a step in the ongoing process. Monkeys still exist because why the fuck wouldn't they? We didn't come from rhesus macaques, they didn't become human. Common ancestor. Not that complicated.

"Also if everything is just random, how is it that each individual human has their own DNA?" I'm not sure I understand the question. You think all humans should have exactly the same DNA?



I would like to draw a parallel between Karl being unable to comprehend the nature of infinity and people who doubt evolution being unable to comprehend the effects of time on a massive scale and the vastness of the universe creating (possibly) infinite habitable planets for life to have a chance to take hold on. At a certain point, if they aren't comprehending, they won't ever. It's as sad as it is frustrating, really.

Without hitting the google machine? Where the hell have you learned all of your shit from, Antine? The bible and YouTube?

Like I said, "I don't care all that much". I live my life as best I can, being a decent person. My answer to your first question after I googled it, because evolution is not linear. Also - humans are not the end of the chain. I don't think there is an end to the chain, ya know, because we are still here.

You seem to be correlating the big bang theory = no god. I don't think that's what people are saying. In the end, I'm going to die and that will be it. Why worry about shit like this if we are all going to end up in the same place, bones or burned? Well wait - you probably believe in some after-life then? I do not. I think you die and.. you die. I won't know, because I'll be dead. Like before we were born!

What I meant by not hitting up the google machine was that I was looking to see your current knowledge of it.  Of course that's the best way to research things.   I was just curious if you could give me a brief, logical explanation of the reason for this anomaly without looking it up.  

So evolution is not linear.  Seems pretty ambiguous for a theory that's considered the best due to its scientific nature.  

So you think we humans might evolve into something else?  Seems pretty strange that it hasn't happened in thousands of years....oh wait, I forgot evolution is linear.   Seriously though, what do you think humans might possibly evolve into?  Maybe grow some wings and be able to fly one day?

Big Bang doesn't equal no god?  I thought atheists don't believe in a god?  Most atheists I know subscribe to the theory of Big Bang and don't believe in a god, so I disagree with your assessment that Big Bang doesnt mean no god.

Without a doubt I believe in an afterlife.  And I will until the Bible's prophesies cease to come true.  

"In the end, I'm going to die and that will be it"  Well you may not have to if you don't want to depending on your age.  Research the Avatar project.  This is real life, not a conspiracy theory.  Lots of fucked up shit going on in this world that the mainstream media isn't reporting on

Humans will continue the process of evolution if the species continues to survive. I can't imagine we'd grow wings, as we'd have to evolve many other adaptations (hollow bones, to name one) in addition to wings to get any benefit from them.

The Big Bang is not incompatible with deism. It would contradict a literal interpretation of the Bible, obviously.

Atheism takes no stance on the afterlife, per se, insofar as a god is not necessary for some sort of afterlife. Though I would imagine that most athiests (myself included) probably do not believe in any sort of afterlife either.

Ahh, it's not linear.  Seems to be the common answer.  So whatever happens, you have an explanation for it because it can never be disproven since it's "non-linear".  I mean how can one argue against that LOL

So you think biologically ( not talking about transhumanism) humans will be transforming into another creature a million years down the road?  

I mean like you said I have astonishingly little knowledge of science, but shouldn't there be a genetic code that explains why some apes become humans while others remain apes?  Since it's non-linear I assume that also means some humans will remain as humans and others will evolve into these super humans.  Will us humans who don't change become enslaved and if so how do you think we should best prepare for this?  And since I'm scientifically deficient perhaps in your expertise you could explain to me how your theory of the origination of life is valid even though it contradicts the law of biogenesis...

"... why some apes become humans while others remain apes?" Humans ARE apes. All apes living today share a common ancestor at some point in the past. That common ancestor does not still exist in the same form as it did then. That's not how evolution works. Now apply that to the rest of that nonsense paragraph about super-humans enslaving regular humans or whatever you're on about.

Law of Biogenesis addressed above.

I love Unitarian Universalists.  They are the only group that openly advocates and lives Jesus' edicts.

All of the Protestant groups do, or at least most of them.  Obviously you're gonna have your outliers, but speaking in general terms here.  This might be the point where you will mention them hating on gay people.  But on the contrary, within their belief system they are actually looking out for the best interests of gay people as the Bible tells them that gay people will not inherit the Kingdom of God.  

As a former Catholic I have no problem admitting I've been duped by their phony religion that worships pagan idols, that engage in numerous acts that directly contradict the Bible.  How can they call themselves Christian when they do this?  Even the new Pope says atheists can get to Heaven ( sorry guys, the only people getting into heaven are those who believe in the Father and Son but it's never too late, that's the good news!) and other blasphemous statements.  I'm gonna go deep on you now and tell you that the Vatican is the Anti-Christ as its the only entity that meets all 11 characteristics.  When you come to accept the truth that the Vatican is the Anti-Christ and you understand that the Founding Fathers recreated DC into the Vatican....well, need I say more?  

How very patronizing. "Gay people, we are only making you feel bad about who you are and trying to prevent you from achieving equality because we know what's best for you better than you do, because God told us." That's what you're effectively saying. Asinine.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

What about people who once believed this, but later in life changed their mind? I have never gotten a good answer on Christianity's take-backsies policy.

According to the Pope the Anti-Christ, atheists are all good when it comes to entering the Kingdom of God so long as they lead of life devoid of iniquity.  However, according to the Bible it's not so straightforward and I'd certainly want to not leave any room for doubt.  According to John it's pretty ambiguous as in one verse he says its entirely up to the Father to decide who shall enter.  But he goes on to say later that “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." which clearly claims as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as the risen one you will get in.  This however would exclude Jews ( the fake ones, not the real ones ) and Muslims.  

If it were my rules and an atheist lead a life the way a Christian should, I would allow them entry. But obviously I'm not the Creator and  since he was willing to drown all the sons and daughters of man, his creation, in order to punish the lovers of the Fallen Angels and their Nephilim offspring...well he's obviously got quite the wrath.  

I had my doubts about God up until recently.  Only after having my eyes opened in the truther movement was I able to see how this grand deception tied into the prophesies of the Bible and truly then understood as the Bible says, the god of our earthly world is Satan yet most people have absolutely no clue how much evil has permeated throughout the world at the highest of levels.  

Sounds like I'm going to have to lawyer up at the pearly gates.

[MiamiSpartan]

You mean like how God created everything out of nothing?

Exactly. God is not an inanimate object like a rock. Honest question because I don't know the answer ( I suppose I could look it up..), whom or what do atheists believe created this rock that caused the Big Bang?

You're changing the argument from "how can anything be created out of nothing" to "how can anything be created by an inanimate object?

Biogenesis states that life can only come from life, right? So how did God create life? Is God alive?

[Robert J Sakimano]

81% of evangelical "christians" voted for an admitted sexual predator.

[MiamiSpartan]

What about people who once believed this, but later in life changed their mind? I have never gotten a good answer on Christianity's take-backsies policy.

According to the Pope the Anti-Christ, atheists are all good when it comes to entering the Kingdom of God so long as they lead of life devoid of iniquity. However, according to the Bible it's not so straightforward and I'd certainly want to not leave any room for doubt. According to John it's pretty ambiguous as in one verse he says its entirely up to the Father to decide who shall enter. But he goes on to say later that “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." which clearly claims as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as the risen one you will get in. This however would exclude Jews ( the fake ones, not the real ones ) and Muslims.

You realize that's not an exclusive statement, right? It says that whoever believes in him will have eternal life, but it does not say that ONLY those who believe him will have eternal life. That would be kind of a dick move by God, to leave out a good, honest person that never does anything wrong, because they so happen to have been born and raised in a jungle somewhere without ever learning about God.

[MiamiSpartan]

TBF, the same atrocities would have happened one way or another anyway.  Organized religion is really just about power.  If someone isn't using religion to wield power, they (or someone like them) would wield power through another means (government, military, etc.).  It might not be Group A committing atrocities against Group B, but instead it might be Group C committing atrocities against Group B.  People are assholes.  People that love holding power over other people are even bigger assholes.  

For the most part, religions provide a guide for people on how to live their life and be a good person.  Whether you believe it's real or not, if you adhere to the teachings, you'll make the world a better place.  But enterprising people have always realized that this makes the followers ripe for manipulation.  Being able to manipulate others give you power.  At the end of the day, it's about power, whether that's derived from a perceived god(s), a government, a birthright, etc.

Well-stated.  The Vatican is merely an extension of the Roman Empire.  They are the ones responsible for creating the fake religions including their own.  People should look up the history of the Jesuits and the oaths they are required to take.  There's a good debate in who is actually controlling the NWO agenda between the Zionists and the Jesuits/Vatican.  They could be warring factions for all we know.  But there's no doubt the Vatican is responsible for the majority of what is wrong in this world today.  

Here's a video that without a doubt shows all the pseudo religions of this world ( I'm not laying the fault at the followers of these religions as most of them come from regions of the world where there is little education ) all worship the same entity.  Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism and Catholicism.   At the very least it has a tremendous musical score

Please don't say "well stated", as if you're agreeing with me. Especially since you didn't agree with me at all. Instead, you kind of went off the reservation talking about something that could not be further from what I was saying.

[MiamiSpartan]

I can't agree with this statement. Yes, shitty things will still take place in the world, but I don't think they'd happen nearly as much or to such a severe degree.

I'll use ISIS as one example. They would not exist if Islam didn't exist. Most religions find a sympathetic ear to the poor or seemingly forgotten masses. I'm using a broad brush here, but for the most part this is true. Most of the middle east is a shit sandwich right now. I do believe there would be pockets of freedom fighters, or whatever label you'd like to put on them, fighting against oppressive regimes or Israel (which was founded on another religious based genocide). But I do not think you would get the organization or the cash flow to support terrorist groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS without using religion as your foundation.

There is no such thing as ISIS, 100% would bet my life on it.  It's a Mossad/CIA creation.  ISIS is the name of one of the ancient Egyptian gods their creators worship.  Also stands for Israeli Secret Intelligence Services.  How come we didn't call Al Qaeda by their English translation but we do so for ISIS?   In order for Israel to get the support of the US they have to have a boogeyman to contend with even though ISIS has attacked just about EVERY country but the one of their biggest enemy LOL isn't that convenient

And the state of Israel was LONG in the works of being established before the fake Holocaust took place.  It's because the same white folks claiming oppression own the media, education system and propaganda entertainment wing that they were able to get away with it.  There were 100 other countries before Germany who kicked the Khazars, or as you know them today Jews, out of their country before Hitler wanted to do so.

There is nothing bad in the world. No terrorism. No war. Not even natural disasters. Everyone is really just sitting around holding hands, singing kumbaya. It's just the illuminati faking everything bad in the world to scare us. But it's really ok to leave the house, right?

[Cameron]

I was hoping for a religious person who wasn't obviously crazy to participate in this discussion, but you make do with what you've got, I suppose...

(Also, I am realizing as I write this post that this thread is dangerously close turning into a full on debate about evolution, which would be a matter for a separate thread as evolution is not a religion. So after this post I will probably attempt to refrain from discussing evolution to focus on the topic at hand, and I would encourage others to do the same.)



RE: Law of Biogenesis, since you keep bringing it up. http://asktheatheist.com/?tag=law-of-biogenesis That link explains it more clearly than I probably could. If you look into the elemental composition of the universe, and then compare it to the elemental composition of biological life here on earth, you see that (aside from Helium) the most common elements in the universe are the most common elements in biological life, in similar ratios.

RE: Organized Religion vs. actually reading and understanding the Bible, I take it that you believe the the Bible is literally true and the inerrant word of the creator of the universe? I hope so, that's easier to argue against than someone who picks and chooses which parts they believe.



This has already been responded to, but I'll reiterate. Calling humans the "end of the chain" and wondering why monkeys still exists demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of evolution. Evolution is not directed and it's not on a path. Humans are not the end, but merely a step in the ongoing process. Monkeys still exist because why the fuck wouldn't they? We didn't come from rhesus macaques, they didn't become human. Common ancestor. Not that complicated.

"Also if everything is just random, how is it that each individual human has their own DNA?" I'm not sure I understand the question. You think all humans should have exactly the same DNA?



I would like to draw a parallel between Karl being unable to comprehend the nature of infinity and people who doubt evolution being unable to comprehend the effects of time on a massive scale and the vastness of the universe creating (possibly) infinite habitable planets for life to have a chance to take hold on. At a certain point, if they aren't comprehending, they won't ever. It's as sad as it is frustrating, really.



Humans will continue the process of evolution if the species continues to survive. I can't imagine we'd grow wings, as we'd have to evolve many other adaptations (hollow bones, to name one) in addition to wings to get any benefit from them.

The Big Bang is not incompatible with deism. It would contradict a literal interpretation of the Bible, obviously.

Atheism takes no stance on the afterlife, per se, insofar as a god is not necessary for some sort of afterlife. Though I would imagine that most athiests (myself included) probably do not believe in any sort of afterlife either.



"... why some apes become humans while others remain apes?" Humans ARE apes. All apes living today share a common ancestor at some point in the past. That common ancestor does not still exist in the same form as it did then. That's not how evolution works. Now apply that to the rest of that nonsense paragraph about super-humans enslaving regular humans or whatever you're on about.

Law of Biogenesis addressed above.



How very patronizing. "Gay people, we are only making you feel bad about who you are and trying to prevent you from achieving equality because we know what's best for you better than you do, because God told us." That's what you're effectively saying. Asinine.

Starts out his reply with an insult.  Tells me I'm on the right path

" If you look into the elemental composition of the universe, and then compare it to the elemental composition of biological life here on earth, you see that (aside from Helium) the most common elements in the universe are the most common elements in biological life, in similar ratios."

Yeah, and?  Carbon is an element found in both the universe and in biological life here on earth.  You know what else is made out of carbon?  Rocks.  Are you saying you consider rocks to be living things?

"RE: Organized Religion vs. actually reading and understanding the Bible, I take it that you believe the the Bible is literally true and the inerrant word of the creator of the universe? I hope so, that's easier to argue against than someone who picks and chooses which parts they believe."

Yes, I'm not part of a phony religion that considers a man coming back from the dead and being lifted into the Heavens to be literal but not the story of Noah.  Plenty of evidence that the world was wiped out by a cataclysmic event such as a flood.  

"This has already been responded to, but I'll reiterate. Calling humans the "end of the chain" and wondering why monkeys still exists demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of evolution. Evolution is not directed and it's not on a path. Humans are not the end, but merely a step in the ongoing process. Monkeys still exist because why the fuck wouldn't they? We didn't come from rhesus macaques, they didn't become human. Common ancestor. Not that complicated."

Ahhh ok so I'm the crazy person, not somebody who thinks in 1 Million years from now humans will biologically turn into something superior than what they currently are.  Please give me your opinion as to what this superior being will look and act like?.  Will they be mightier or inferior than what will exist in a million years based on the technology that will be in existence by that time?  Or will you have a convenient excuse and say that the natural evolution of living beings was stomped out due to the interference of transhumanism?  Because that seems like a fucking god damn GREAT excuse!!!

Regarding DNA...our genetic code works exactly like a computer program.  A liver code would have no need to be connected with a neuron code.  All of our cells carry a copy of the genomes so there is a system in place that uses if-then flow systems just like computer programmers. The parallel is that a creator would have been needed to program our DNA much like any computer program would require a programmer.  It's awesomely ironic that science ( DNA ) is available to contradict atheism!!

"I would like to draw a parallel between Karl being unable to comprehend the nature of infinity and people who doubt evolution being unable to comprehend the effects of time on a massive scale and the vastness of the universe creating (possibly) infinite habitable planets for life to have a chance to take hold on. At a certain point, if they aren't comprehending, they won't ever. It's as sad as it is frustrating, really."

The exact same insult can be made of atheists.  If I wanted to be like you and go this route I'd say I gave you clear evidence of DNA being something that should completely discredit the notion that we not created by a higher being, yet I also have no doubt you will dismiss this and still believe you were created by a rock

"Humans ARE apes. All apes living today share a common ancestor at some point in the past. That common ancestor does not still exist in the same form as it did then. That's not how evolution works. Now apply that to the rest of that nonsense paragraph about super-humans enslaving regular humans or whatever you're on about."

So Darwin, the guy who discovered this theory you subscribe to, was lying when he said we evolved from monkeys and not apes?  


Let me break it down in simple terms.  Here is what proponents of the THEORY of evolution believe.  That the survival of an evolutionary line is dependent upon the ability of its members to live and reproduce in their environment.  This is your belief, correct?  So please let me know how you are able to reconcile your promotion of the homosexual agenda with your beliefs that our species can only survive with reproduction?  homosexuality is NOT compatible with your views on NATURAL selection.  So either way you're a hypocrite....which way?  well I'll let you decide.  

What it comes down to, in THEORY ( you know, things you fully believe in like Evolution, Gravity, etc..) you would just fine with the human population not surviving because if you think it's ok for people to be gay, then you'd have to be ok with 100% of the population being gay.  Your belief system in essence says it's ok to destroy the human species, NATURAL selection, entirely because of something that is UNNATURAL

I'm going to respond to this post here:

https://spartanswill.forumotion.com/t15029-the-swill-bin-evolution-thread#403466

[Cameron]

"RE: Organized Religion vs. actually reading and understanding the Bible, I take it that you believe the the Bible is literally true and the inerrant word of the creator of the universe? I hope so, that's easier to argue against than someone who picks and chooses which parts they believe."

Yes, I'm not part of a phony religion that considers a man coming back from the dead and being lifted into the Heavens to be literal but not the story of Noah.  Plenty of evidence that the world was wiped out by a cataclysmic event such as a flood.  

Excellent. Let's discuss this ark and flood business. I have some questions, I hope you'll oblige me.

1: This flood covered the whole earth, every single landmass?
2: Where did all that water come from?
3: Where did all that water go?
4: Noah lived somewhere in the middle east. Where did he get kangaroos? Where did he get penguins?
5: How did arctic animals like penguins survive on the same boat as tropical and desert animals?
6: What did the carnivorous animals eat while on the boat?
7: There are hundreds of thousands of species of insect, many of which only live in very specific places (not anywhere near the middle east). How did he go about collecting all of these?
8: How could Noah tell the difference between males and females of every species? Was he down on his hands and knees examining insect genitalia?

[MiamiSpartan]

You're changing the argument from "how can anything be created out of nothing" to "how can anything be created by an inanimate object?

Biogenesis states that life can only come from life, right? So how did God create life? Is God alive?

An inanimate object = nothing. A rock is an inanimate object. An intelligent designer is not an inanimate object.

inanimate - adjective
1.
not animate; lifeless.
2.
SPIRITLESS

Definition of nothing
1 : not any thing : no thing <leaves nothing to the imagination>

An inanimate object is not nothing. It is an object. A thing.

Yes, God is life. The first form of life who created man

Then who created God?

[Watch Out Pylon!]

An inanimate object = nothing.  A rock is an inanimate object.  An intelligent designer is not an inanimate object.  

inanimate - adjective
1.
not animate; lifeless.
2.
SPIRITLESS

Definition of nothing
   1  :  not any thing :  no thing <leaves nothing to the imagination>

An inanimate object is not nothing.  It is an object.  A thing.

Yes, God is life.  The first form of life who created man

Then who created God?

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Santa claus for adults who need a promise of after life to be a decent human. Scary stuff.

[MiamiSpartan]

Definition of nothing
   1  :  not any thing :  no thing <leaves nothing to the imagination>

An inanimate object is not nothing.  It is an object.  A thing.


Then who created God?

That's the million dollar question.  Same can be asked of who created the rock in the Big Bang. However, if you believe in the Law of Biogenesis would you not believe it's more likely the creator was God or a rock traveling through space?

But don't you see the flaw here? The Law of Biogenesis, since you take that so strictly, contradicts your creationist beliefs since you take the Bible so strictly. You've tried to state, in different threads, that the Law of Biogenesis is so strictly a "Law" that it disproves The Big Bang and evolution. I've pointed out in the Conspiracy thread that you use the term "Law" far too strictly (much more strictly than scientists use it, which is odd considering you're making a scientific argument). As long as you interpret Biogenesis as a hard Law with no exceptions, it can only then conflict with your strict belief in the Bible, if you dare to think critically on it. Your ultra-strict interpretation of the Law of Biogenesis contradicts creationism just as much as it contradicts The Big Bang, or any other origin theory. Either theory MUST contain at least one moment of abiogenesis. The only other possibility is that the history of life is infinite.

And when I say "nothing" I thought it was obvious I was referring to something that doesn't possess life...like a rock

You expect to use words incorrectly and people are supposed to know what you mean? No, "nothing" is "nothing". It's a pretty definitive word.

FTR, I don't agree or disagree with Creationism, nor do I agree or disagree with The Big Bang or Evolution. All (and other theories) are possibilities, yet all have flaws. I don't feel the need to know for sure the truth, I more enjoy considering the possibilities, knowing that it is ultimately a mystery that we will never know for sure. I just disagree with your use of Biogenesis to attempt to disprove some theories, without applying the same law in the same way to your own belief.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

What's the deal with Hindu's not eating beef? Or Jew observing kosher rules?

[DWags]

What's the deal with Hindu's not eating beef? Or Jew observing kosher rules?

They don't get as hungry as Christians do.

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