Charter Schools?

Good for kids, or one of the biggest frauds perpetrated on Michigan residents using public money with no accountability since Kwame was shoving the shit in his pockets?

Discuss

To me the bigger issue is why the state of Michigan separates its public school districts the way it does. So many small areas have their own districts and thus have their own superintendents and support staff, which is costly now and in the future when these people retire.

I would switch Michigan into having their districts at the county level instead of being basically at the city level like they are now.

Some good, some not so much, just like everything else.

The biggest plus for charter schools is they keep the teachers' union out. No tenure, no perform, no have to keep ya around.

tTito wrote:The biggest plus for charter schools is they keep the teachers' union out. No tenure, no perform, no have to keep ya around.

Minimum wage, no interest to draw talented people in. Not saying unions are good, but at Charters for profit if you're working at 35 K a year for 10 months and little health care, you're going to get what you pay for. For profit is a tough gig.

Giant Moose wrote:To me the bigger issue is why the state of Michigan separates its public school districts the way it does. So many small areas have their own districts and thus have their own superintendents and support staff, which is costly now and in the future when these people retire.

I would switch Michigan into having their districts at the county level instead of being basically at the city level like they are now.

Yes, let's combined Grosse Pointe and Northville Schools with Detroit and Inkster. Great idea. I'm sure nothing but great results would follow when the leaders of the school district are not accountable to their neighbors.

DWags wrote:

Minimum wage, no interest to draw talented people in.   Not saying unions are good, but at Charters for profit if you're working at 35 K a year for 10 months and little health care, you're going to get what you pay for.  For profit is a tough gig.  

However, tenure should be earned and mechanisms for post-tenure review should exist. It should not be granted based on time.

I'm a supporter of the public school system. Not a fan of charters because I think it shifts resources away from public schools, hamstringing them to the point that many are choked out and charters become the only option. The problem is, eventually we'll have to bus kids from poorer areas to these schools and that's going to cost a lot. The pattern continues until charter schools are charter in name only and become de facto public schools.

the biggest problem with charter schools is that they take the liberties of using taxpayer money with no, or very little, accountability to those that fund their operation..

and, not surprisingly, those that champion them are typically the same people who want something but doesn't want to pay for it.. conservatives.

Turtleneck wrote:

However, tenure should be earned and mechanisms for post-tenure review should exist. It should not be granted based on time.

Absolutely. I'm not sure tenure it should ever be given given. However, I understand why it was, and sometimes dynamic teatchers will get on administrations nerves because of heir demands of students and parents, and even though they are successful, the administrators want them out. Trust me, I know this from another life. Tenure helps protect great dynamic but irritating teachers from the whims of administrators because they personally don't like them.

Rook wrote:

Yes, let's combined Grosse Pointe and Northville Schools with Detroit and Inkster.  Great idea.  I'm sure nothing but great results would follow when the leaders of the school district are not accountable to their neighbors.

Well, for that, you make Detroit have its own district because it's actually a major city. That's how it is done in Virginia and Maryland, for example. The city of Alexandria has its own district as does the city of Baltimore.

Giant Moose wrote:To me the bigger issue is why the state of Michigan separates its public school districts the way it does. So many small areas have their own districts and thus have their own superintendents and support staff, which is costly now and in the future when these people retire.

I would switch Michigan into having their districts at the county level instead of being basically at the city level like they are now.

Our district is near county wide....and spends 1.4 million a year on busing. Consolidation reduces duplicates in administration, but the costs are also increased elsewhere.

Giant Moose wrote:
Well, for that, you make Detroit have its own district because it's actually a major city. That's how it is done in Virginia and Maryland, for example. The city of Alexandria has its own district as does the city of Baltimore.

Well given the incompetent Wayne County Government, I'm not real comfortable with any county wide administration. Wayne County will be next in bankruptcy after Detroit is finished.

Oh Look. There is a problem. Leave it to Bob to find some way to blame those evil "conservatives". Damn bastards destroyed Wayne County, Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Lansing, Saginaw, etc etc etc etc et

Sounds good in theory but then again so does communism. The real imimpetus is funneling public monies into the hands of a few.

Rook wrote:Oh Look.  There is a problem.  Leave it to Bob to find some way to blame those evil "conservatives".    Damn bastards destroyed Wayne County, Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Lansing, Saginaw, etc etc etc etc et

Hahahahah. Boom. Perfect.

Rook wrote:Oh Look.  There is a problem.  Leave it to Bob to find some way to blame those evil "conservatives".    Damn bastards destroyed Wayne County, Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Lansing, Saginaw, etc etc etc etc et

so conservatives aren't the biggest advocate for taxpayer-funded education with no accountability to the taxpayers?

thanks for playing.

SO much waste at the administration level in local school districts, state and federal level it's not even funny. Every two years some idiot administrator at the federal level decides that math should be taught this way and not that way and wastes so much fucking time and money as it all trickles down. wash, rinse, repeat for reading, writing, blah blah blah. Walk into any administrative office building in this country and look around at all the bloat. Sit through a mandated workshop or seminar and you'll laugh your ass off as a bunch of teachers are sitting around texting or facebooking because they know how much bullshit it is.

DWags wrote:

Absolutely.   I'm not sure tenure it should ever be given given.  However,  I understand why it was, and sometimes dynamic teatchers will get on administrations nerves because of heir demands of students and parents, and even though they are successful, the administrators want them out.   Trust me, I know this from another life.  Tenure helps protect great dynamic but irritating teachers from the whims of administrators because they personally don't like them.  

It should be give out. Teachers need academic freedom. For example, units on world history will run up against fascism. A good teacher will explain the basic ideas of fascism and why it had appeal in the 20th century. The same goes with socialism. A good teacher is going to explain the tenets of socialism as a means of explaining its 20th century appeal. All of this requires a mechanism for academic freedom that protects the teacher from overly sensitive administrators or crazy parents.

Turtleneck wrote:

It should be give out. Teachers need academic freedom. For example, units on world history will run up against fascism. A good teacher will explain the basic ideas of fascism and why it would ever have have appeal (especially to 20th century German and Italians). The same goes with socialism. A good teacher is going to explain the tenets of socialism as a means of explaining its 20th century appeal. All of this requires a mechanism for academic freedom that protects the teacher from overly sensitive administrators or crazy parents.

no shortage of crazy parents, for sure - you can even see it in this thread..

Yeah Bob... Public schools are soooo accountable. Very little waste nor mismanagement.

I don't use them. My child is in private school. I just pay for them. Where's my voucher?

DroppedByADime wrote:  Where's my voucher?    

You spent the voucher money on booze.

Can I thank obama for this travesty?

Turtleneck wrote:

It should be give out. Teachers need academic freedom. For example, units on world history will run up against fascism. A good teacher will explain the basic ideas of fascism and why it had appeal in the 20th century. The same goes with socialism. A good teacher is going to explain the tenets of socialism as a means of explaining its 20th century appeal. All of this requires a mechanism for academic freedom that protects the teacher from overly sensitive administrators or crazy parents.

Great point, I remember as an administrator sitting with some outraged parents because Shindlers list had some nudity in it. (geez, I think that was it, I'm old) I tried to explain, I'm not for nudity in movies per say, but perhaps that particular nudity wasn't sexual in nature but maybe the director was showing it as part of the way the Nazi's dehumanized people and treated them as animals. I was the only administrator who had that thought, the others just ducked and hid, and said that the movie or any snipets of it, would not be shown again.

yee haw! Parents running schools. Not all or the majority of them, but a vocal minority getting it done cause they know what's best for their kid vs. what's best for all kids. The teacher who was classically trained in a college for five years surely doesn't, but the parents who get their churchin in every Sunday know. Damn straight.

By-Tor wrote:SO much waste at the administration level in local school districts, state and federal level it's not even funny.   Every two years some idiot administrator at the federal level decides that math should be taught this way and not that way and wastes so much fucking time and money as it all trickles down.    wash, rinse, repeat for reading, writing, blah blah blah.  Walk into any administrative office building in this country and look around at all the bloat.    Sit through a mandated workshop or seminar and you'll laugh your ass off as a bunch of teachers are sitting around texting or facebooking because they know how much bullshit it is.

This X100.

The Common Core math curriculum being taught at my daughters 1st grade public elementary school is an absolute abomination. We have to but her math workbooks and teach her at home because Common Core is horribly confusing.

tTito wrote:The biggest plus for charter schools is they keep the teachers' union out. No tenure, no perform, no have to keep ya around.

Bam!!

Quick story. My cousin and recent MSU grad got her teaching certification and wanted to teach special ed. She applied to a charter school (with an excellent academic reputation I might add), but because they are non-union she may be required to put in additional time (paid of course) to help her students.
Turned it down because of the extra work. What the heck?!?

Nothing like being there for your students, eh?

DroppedByADime wrote:Yeah Bob... Public schools are soooo accountable.   Very little waste nor mismanagement.  

I don't use them.   My child is in private school.  I just pay for them.   Where's my voucher?    

I have no qualms abut vouchers. However, if it's a public voucher, i'd like to see if some of the private schools would take in 20 to 30% of inner city kids into their could, or more. I think th problem with vouchers is that it would take the "private" out of schools. I know a ton of my friends who send their kids to private schools just to get their kid away from the "distractions" of public schools. Less disciplining more stuff gets done. If someone can come up with a reason a "private" school should be able to discriminate in any way if they get public money, I'm for it. However, I'm not smart enough to come up with a reason for it.

DWags wrote:

Great point, I remember as an administrator sitting with some outraged parents because Shindlers list had some nudity in it. (geez, I think that was it, I'm old) I tried to explain, I'm not for nudity in movies per say, but perhaps that particular nudity wasn't sexual in nature but maybe the director was showing it as part of the way the Nazi's dehumanized people and treated them as animals. I was the only administrator who had that thought, the others just ducked and hid, and said that the movie or any snipets of it, would not be shown again.

yee haw! Parents running schools. Not all or the majority of them, but a vocal minority getting it done cause they know what's best for their kid vs. what's best for all kids. The teacher who was classically trained in a college for five years surely doesn't, but the parents who get their churchin in every Sunday know. Damn straight.

Not sure if serious. If not, great satire. If you are then you may be the biggest idiot ever.

LoneWolfSparty wrote:

Bam!!

Quick story. My cousin and recent MSU grad got her teaching certification and wanted to teach special ed. She applied to a charter school (with an excellent academic reputation I might add), but because they are non-union she may be required to put in additional time (paid of course) to help her students.
Turned it down because of the extra work. What the heck?!?

Nothing like being there for your students, eh?

Anecdotes always pass for analysis on the Internet.

Rook wrote:Oh Look. There is a problem. Leave it to Bob to find some way to blame those evil "conservatives". Damn bastards destroyed Wayne County, Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Lansing, Saginaw, etc etc etc etc et

+infinity

When people realize that Booby is nothing more than a partisan hack they are better for it. I guarantee he is s state employee.

By-Tor wrote:SO much waste at the administration level in local school districts, state and federal level it's not even funny. Every two years some idiot administrator at the federal level decides that math should be taught this way and not that way and wastes so much fucking time and money as it all trickles down. wash, rinse, repeat for reading, writing, blah blah blah. Walk into any administrative office building in this country and look around at all the bloat. Sit through a mandated workshop or seminar and you'll laugh your ass off as a bunch of teachers are sitting around texting or facebooking because they know how much bullshit it is.

This is generally the case, it seems. Administrators are so completely out of touch with the classroom in my experience.

LoneWolfSparty wrote:

+infinity

When people realize that Booby is nothing more than a partisan hack they are better for it. I guarantee he is s state employee.

He doesn't like football, so that tells you something right there.

LoneWolfSparty wrote:

Bam!!

Quick story. My cousin and recent MSU grad got her teaching certification and wanted to teach special ed. She applied to a charter school (with an excellent academic reputation I might add), but because they are non-union she may be required to put in additional time (paid of course) to help her students.
Turned it down because of the extra work. What the heck?!?

Nothing like being there for your students, eh?

Public school salaries, said David Thomas, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Education. The average salary for a charter public school teacher was $42,864 in 2011-12 and the average salary for conventional school teachers was $63,094.

21 thousand less with fewer health care benefits.

The median family income in Michigan in 2000 was $44,667, which would have been $59,554 in 2012 dollars


You want your cousin to work for 17 grand under the median income of Michigan, using a ton of her own money as Charter schools don't have the resources due to for profit. I have no problem with you not caring if your cousin is broke, but if she is looking to make more more money for her family, you need to back off and think about it.

DWags wrote:

Public school salaries, said David Thomas, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Education. The average salary for a charter public school teacher was $42,864 in 2011-12 and the average salary for conventional school teachers was $63,094.

21 thousand less with fewer health care benefits.

The median family income in Michigan in 2000 was $44,667, which would have been $59,554 in 2012 dollars


You want your cousin to work for 17 grand under the median income of Michigan, using a ton of her own money as Charter schools don't have the resources due to for profit. I have no problem with you not caring if your cousin is broke, but if she is looking to make more more money for her family, you need to back off and think about it.

Uh did you miss the part about a recent grad? I know I didn't make median right out of college with no experience in my chosen field. It's called paying your dues.

Also, teachers always claim they love changing lives and doing it for the kids. In the meantime all they do is clamor for more money.

LoneWolfSparty wrote:

Not sure if serious. If not, great satire. If you are then you may be the biggest idiot ever.

Can you explain what you mean here?

DWags wrote:

Public school salaries, said David Thomas, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Education. The average salary for a charter public school teacher was $42,864 in 2011-12 and the average salary for conventional school teachers was $63,094.

21 thousand less with fewer health care benefits.

The median family income in Michigan in 2000 was $44,667, which would have been $59,554 in 2012 dollars


You want your cousin to work for 17 grand under the median income of Michigan, using a ton of her own money as Charter schools don't have the resources due to for profit.   I have no problem with you not caring if your cousin is broke, but if she is looking to make more more money for her family, you need to back off and think about it.  

Why do you keep capitalizing "charter?" Did you attend public schools?

tTito wrote:

Why do you keep capitalizing "charter?" Did you attend public schools?

  

My wife noticed that I capitalize random words on a laptop. Shit I don't know. I've admitted that I'm slow and not very smart. I did go to public school, but that was back when teachers were respected and many of us used them to get to colleges like MSU. So, I don't know why I capitalize certain words when I'm on a laptop. some psychological reason I guess.

Rocinante wrote:

Can you explain what you mean here?  

Why? He makes little sense and chooses to insult. It doesn't bother me, let him go.

Charter schools would never have been conceived if traditional public schools hadn't failed in so many districts. When you have decades of decline and failure, but scoff at making changes, you can't really complain when people demand an alternative for their kids.

The "accountability" argument is just a talking point from the MEA. If public schools had any accountability, they wouldn't be in such a sad state of affairs in many districts.

Btw, the private sector has 2 or 3 times more administration than schools do. Depending on industry of course.

DWags wrote:

  

My wife noticed that I capitalize random words on a laptop.   Shit I don't know.   I've admitted that I'm slow and not very smart.  I did go to public school, but that was back when teachers were respected and many of us used them to get to colleges like MSU.   So, I don't know why I capitalize certain words when I'm on a laptop.   some psychological reason I guess.  

I had good elementary school teachers. My junior high and high school teachers were about 2/3 good and 1/3 absolutely horrible. My 8th, 9th and 10th grade math teachers were the worst and it put me way behind when I got to algebra and geometry. My struggles even carried over into math 108 and 109 at MSU. I had to work my ass off to pull 3.0s.