Re: tThis is the official game thread you dumb asses thread

[steveschneider]

While Watts has a terrible game he was still leaps and bounds better than loyer while cash had foul trouble. Should be big to have someone serviceable back there. Loyer still hasn’t shown anything to prove he’s not going to end up at Saginaw Valley soon.

We’ve got some potential. Liked what Bingham and Brown showed. Probably one of Tillman’s worst games he will have. Henry will be solid.

Loyer is hot garbage.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

The reason we lost is because there was no official game thread by tipoff. I'll rectify that moving forward. You're welcome.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Izzo drew up a great play, maybe it was even the Goins duke shot, for a 3 for ahrens late. Wish it was Gabe.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

There were 42 PFs called last night. That’s more than any nba game last night other than 2, and one of those went to 2 OTs. If you’re going to call fouls tighter than in the nba then despite the game being shorter, each player should still get 6 fouls instead of 5. Taking players out of the game for huge stretches because of ticky tack bullshit is not what the intention of having a max foul limit is going for in the first place.

[steveschneider]

There were 42 PFs called last night. That’s more than any nba game last night other than 2, and one of those went to 2 OTs. If you’re going to call fouls tighter than in the nba then despite the game being shorter, each player should still get 6 fouls instead of 5. Taking players out of the game for huge stretches because of ticky tack bullshit is not what the intention of having a max foul limit is going for in the first place.

Solid post.

[Jake from State Farm]

There were 42 PFs called last night. That’s more than any nba game last night other than 2, and one of those went to 2 OTs. If you’re going to call fouls tighter than in the nba then despite the game being shorter, each player should still get 6 fouls instead of 5. Taking players out of the game for huge stretches because of ticky tack bullshit is not what the intention of having a max foul limit is going for in the first place.

Games now are basically a free throw shooting contest interspersed with a bunch of commercials?

[steveschneider]

There were 42 PFs called last night. That’s more than any nba game last night other than 2, and one of those went to 2 OTs. If you’re going to call fouls tighter than in the nba then despite the game being shorter, each player should still get 6 fouls instead of 5. Taking players out of the game for huge stretches because of ticky tack bullshit is not what the intention of having a max foul limit is going for in the first place.

Games now are basically a free throw shooting contest interspersed with a bunch of commercials?

Feels like it.

[DWags]

There were 42 PFs called last night. That’s more than any nba game last night other than 2, and one of those went to 2 OTs. If you’re going to call fouls tighter than in the nba then despite the game being shorter, each player should still get 6 fouls instead of 5. Taking players out of the game for huge stretches because of ticky tack bullshit is not what the intention of having a max foul limit is going for in the first place.

Just, for a moment, pretend you are not a fan of Kentucky or MSU. You are a fan of college basketball. You get your beer, you sit down to watch a number one vs. two in the nation on November 5th. You turn on the t.v. to see Loyer, Hoiberg and crew out there and you have the same problem with Kentucky, and you are not watching Number 1 vs. 2, you are watching a glorified exhibition game with bench players getting a look at by their coaches.

[MiamiSpartan]

There were 42 PFs called last night. That’s more than any nba game last night other than 2, and one of those went to 2 OTs. If you’re going to call fouls tighter than in the nba then despite the game being shorter, each player should still get 6 fouls instead of 5. Taking players out of the game for huge stretches because of ticky tack bullshit is not what the intention of having a max foul limit is going for in the first place.

Is there any other sport where refs can consistently have such a big impact on a game? Any sport can have refs determine it on a huge call here or there. But in basketball there are multiple judgement calls every minute that determine the flow of the game, who is left in the game, etc. Imagine a football game where refs called holding really tight and in every borderline instance.

[steveschneider]

There were 42 PFs called last night. That’s more than any nba game last night other than 2, and one of those went to 2 OTs. If you’re going to call fouls tighter than in the nba then despite the game being shorter, each player should still get 6 fouls instead of 5. Taking players out of the game for huge stretches because of ticky tack bullshit is not what the intention of having a max foul limit is going for in the first place.

Just, for a moment, pretend you are not a fan of Kentucky or MSU. You are a fan of college basketball. You get your beer, you sit down to watch a number one vs. two in the nation on November 5th. You turn on the t.v. to see Loyer, Hoiberg and crew out there and you have the same problem with Kentucky, and you are not watching Number 1 vs. 2, you are watching a glorified exhibition game with bench players getting a look at by their coaches.

Yep. NBA really has a better product. I've said it before but I can tune into an NBA game with two teams I have no rooting interest for and enjoy the contest. NCAA I can't. For me it's MSU or bust. The quality of the games isn't good enough.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

I wonder if it’s the same in AAU? I’m sure high school basketball is a cluster fuck of terrible reffing, but does AAU have a more college or nba flow to it? Never watched a game no idea.

[NigelUno]

I wonder if it’s the same in AAU? I’m sure high school basketball is a cluster fuck of terrible reffing, but does AAU have a more college or nba flow to it? Never watched a game no idea.

AAU has an open gym feel to it. So...NBA?

[kingstonlake]

Allow me to add a different perspective. I took a quick glance at a few games. Scum/app st Lou/Miami MSU/Tucky Duke/KS. Kentucky shot more free throws than everyone. Is that case of bad officiating or a product of TI coaching defense that contests everything? MSU made more FG than Kentucky but Kentucky short way more free throws. Is the idea on izzos part that contesting everything has an advantage over not fouling? You’re conceding a free throw advantage to the opponent but contesting everything is a net gain overall with the offense you run vs the opponent not as aggressive as you. The two prime time games did have more fouls than the other non prime time games though. Anyway, just a perspective on how TI coaches defense vs the bad officiating idea. Could it be a case of us wanting the game to change the way it’s being called because of how MSU plays defense?

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

The refs easing up substantially on the whistles was so predictable.. the game actually got watchable. Hopefully this is not a trend but I’d be stupid not to expect it more and much more.

To answer KL, the officiating was shit on both sides. I’m sure it’s some izzo but not last night.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Mind you, my argument isn’t even that the officiating needs to change. Fine, you want to do that? Fine. But stop making kids sit out half the game because they get called for two hand checks or whatever before the under 16 time out. That’s excessive.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Mind you, my argument isn’t even that the officiating needs to change. Fine, you want to do that? Fine. But stop making kids sit out half the game because they get called for two hand checks or whatever before the under 16 time out. That’s excessive.

Yeah, should be 6 fouls.

[steveschneider]

Allow me to add a different perspective. I took a quick glance at a few games. Scum/app st Lou/Miami MSU/Tucky Duke/KS. Kentucky shot more free throws than everyone. Is that case of bad officiating or a product of TI coaching defense that contests everything? MSU made more FG than Kentucky but Kentucky short way more free throws. Is the idea on izzos part that contesting everything has an advantage over not fouling? You’re conceding a free throw advantage to the opponent but contesting everything is a net gain overall with the offense you run vs the opponent not as aggressive as you. The two prime time games did have more fouls than the other non prime time games though. Anyway, just a perspective on how TI coaches defense vs the bad officiating idea. Could it be a case of us wanting the game to change the way it’s being called because of how MSU plays defense?

Last years team was good at not fouling. Maybe it's time to put away the football pads and stop trying to be tough?

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Allow me to add a different perspective. I took a quick glance at a few games. Scum/app st Lou/Miami MSU/Tucky Duke/KS. Kentucky shot more free throws than everyone. Is that case of bad officiating or a product of TI coaching defense that contests everything? MSU made more FG than Kentucky but Kentucky short way more free throws. Is the idea on izzos part that contesting everything has an advantage over not fouling? You’re conceding a free throw advantage to the opponent but contesting everything is a net gain overall with the offense you run vs the opponent not as aggressive as you. The two prime time games did have more fouls than the other non prime time games though. Anyway, just a perspective on how TI coaches defense vs the bad officiating idea. Could it be a case of us wanting the game to change the way it’s being called because of how MSU plays defense?

Last years team was good at not fouling. Maybe it's time to put away the football pads and stop trying to be tough?

Will someone elaborate on what tough in basketball actually means? Last year’s team was mentally tough, the way they could come back down vs Michigan and others but do you really have to be tough in basketball? Making the final 4 post Langford being hurt. Injuries a lot of the year. This isn’t football. If you’re tough, you get a whistle from what i can tell in the ncaa.

[kingstonlake]

Mind you, my argument isn’t even that the officiating needs to change. Fine, you want to do that? Fine. But stop making kids sit out half the game because they get called for two hand checks or whatever before the under 16 time out. That’s excessive.

Agree

[steveschneider]

Last years team was good at not fouling. Maybe it's time to put away the football pads and stop trying to be tough?

Will someone elaborate on what tough in basketball actually means? Last year’s team was mentally tough, the way they could come back down vs Michigan and others but do you really have to be tough in basketball? Making the final 4 post Langford being hurt. Injuries a lot of the year. This isn’t football. If you’re tough, you get a whistle from what i can tell in the ncaa.

I don't know, but to Kingstons point we were committing some pretty stupid fouls in the first half. Our style of play in defense is generating a lot of calls. I just thought last year we were a lot better at avoiding a lot of those types of calls but then again it is game one.

[MiamiSpartan]

Allow me to add a different perspective. I took a quick glance at a few games. Scum/app st Lou/Miami MSU/Tucky Duke/KS. Kentucky shot more free throws than everyone. Is that case of bad officiating or a product of TI coaching defense that contests everything? MSU made more FG than Kentucky but Kentucky short way more free throws. Is the idea on izzos part that contesting everything has an advantage over not fouling? You’re conceding a free throw advantage to the opponent but contesting everything is a net gain overall with the offense you run vs the opponent not as aggressive as you. The two prime time games did have more fouls than the other non prime time games though. Anyway, just a perspective on how TI coaches defense vs the bad officiating idea. Could it be a case of us wanting the game to change the way it’s being called because of how MSU plays defense?

We only had 2 more fouls than Kentucky did, so no, it's not Izzo's aggressive style.

It's the inconsistency from one set of officials to another, and even with the same officials from one game to another. Heck, even within the same game from one point of the game to another, refs are often wildly inconsistent.

[duffy munn]

Any post game takes? What else?

Maxey.

Not really

[NigelUno]

Any post game takes? What else?

Maxey.

Not really

I heard you're handing out calendars.

[kingstonlake]

Allow me to add a different perspective. I took a quick glance at a few games. Scum/app st Lou/Miami MSU/Tucky Duke/KS. Kentucky shot more free throws than everyone. Is that case of bad officiating or a product of TI coaching defense that contests everything? MSU made more FG than Kentucky but Kentucky short way more free throws. Is the idea on izzos part that contesting everything has an advantage over not fouling? You’re conceding a free throw advantage to the opponent but contesting everything is a net gain overall with the offense you run vs the opponent not as aggressive as you. The two prime time games did have more fouls than the other non prime time games though. Anyway, just a perspective on how TI coaches defense vs the bad officiating idea. Could it be a case of us wanting the game to change the way it’s being called because of how MSU plays defense?

We only had 2 more fouls than Kentucky did, so no, it's not Izzo's aggressive style.

It's the inconsistency from one set of officials to another, and even with the same officials from one game to another. Heck, even within the same game from one point of the game to another, refs are often wildly inconsistent.

Wouldn’t that make the idea that a hard contest on everything put up by the opponent leads to more free throws? They shot 14 more of them. I understand it’s one game so it’s a small window but it does seem to be a common theme

[DWags]

Just, for a moment, pretend you are not a fan of Kentucky or MSU. You are a fan of college basketball. You get your beer, you sit down to watch a number one vs. two in the nation on November 5th. You turn on the t.v. to see Loyer, Hoiberg and crew out there and you have the same problem with Kentucky, and you are not watching Number 1 vs. 2, you are watching a glorified exhibition game with bench players getting a look at by their coaches.

Yep. NBA really has a better product. I've said it before but I can tune into an NBA game with two teams I have no rooting interest for and enjoy the contest. NCAA I can't. For me it's MSU or bust. The quality of the games isn't good enough.

Is it because of product or officiating

[steveschneider]

So question, based on what we saw last night do we feel like our chances are better or worse than last year to win the title? I think it's going to come down to development of Bingham / Brown / Henry. Those three have a lot of upside. Need Brown to hit those shots and stretch the floor.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

So question, based on what we saw last night do we feel like our chances are better or worse than last year to win the title? I think it's going to come down to development of Bingham / Brown / Henry. Those three have a lot of upside. Need Brown to hit those shots and stretch the floor.

Way too early to tell, but I'm hopeful. Bingham showed me a few things that are encouraging.

[Cameron]

So question, based on what we saw last night do we feel like our chances are better or worse than last year to win the title? I think it's going to come down to development of Bingham / Brown / Henry. Those three have a lot of upside. Need Brown to hit those shots and stretch the floor.

I agree with Pylon that it's too early to tell.

For my part, I think we will miss Goins and McQuaid a lot in the early going. Once we get Langford back and the young guys get their feet wet a bit, I think we'll be in great shape. Just gotta avoid significant injuries, which is the case every year.

[InTenSity]

So question, based on what we saw last night do we feel like our chances are better or worse than last year to win the title? I think it's going to come down to development of Bingham / Brown / Henry. Those three have a lot of upside. Need Brown to hit those shots and stretch the floor.

I agree with Pylon that it's too early to tell.

For my part, I think we will miss Goins and McQuaid a lot in the early going. Once we get Langford back and the young guys get their feet wet a bit, I think we'll be in great shape. Just gotta avoid significant injuries, which is the case every year.

I don't think Langford is coming back, TBH. Whatever injury he has is taking way too long to heal correctly.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Probably worse but it's November.

I thought positives were:
Cash
Bingham
Brown
Watts (being able to dribble and play basketball, compared to loyer, his offense will come)

Negatives:
Tillman
Refs
Loyer

Also I'm with Intensity, I would not assume Langford is coming back. Actually would assume he isn't.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

I agree with Pylon that it's too early to tell.

For my part, I think we will miss Goins and McQuaid a lot in the early going. Once we get Langford back and the young guys get their feet wet a bit, I think we'll be in great shape. Just gotta avoid significant injuries, which is the case every year.

I don't think Langford is coming back, TBH. Whatever injury he has is taking way too long to heal correctly.

I'm in this boat too. Gotta develop the young guys and if Langford does come back that will be a bonus. Brown has to fill the McQuaid shooter's role. No one is going to replicate his defense though. We'll see how the season progresses.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

Probably worse but it's November.

I thought positives were:
Cash
Bingham
Brown
Watts (being able to dribble and play basketball, compared to loyer, his offense will come)

Negatives:
Tillman
Refs
Loyer

Also I'm with Intensity, I would not assume Langford is coming back. Actually would assume he isn't.

Loyer can ride the bench and work on his game in practice. He ain't ready for this level of play. He may never be.

[NigelUno]

So question, based on what we saw last night do we feel like our chances are better or worse than last year to win the title? I think it's going to come down to development of Bingham / Brown / Henry. Those three have a lot of upside. Need Brown to hit those shots and stretch the floor.

Without Langford = worse

With Hauser = better

With Hauser and Langford = Natty

Wish Ward had stuck around.

[steveschneider]

So question, based on what we saw last night do we feel like our chances are better or worse than last year to win the title? I think it's going to come down to development of Bingham / Brown / Henry. Those three have a lot of upside. Need Brown to hit those shots and stretch the floor.

Without Langford = worse

With Hauser = better

With Hauser and Langford = Natty

Wish Ward had stuck around.

This.

[MiamiSpartan]

We only had 2 more fouls than Kentucky did, so no, it's not Izzo's aggressive style.

It's the inconsistency from one set of officials to another, and even with the same officials from one game to another. Heck, even within the same game from one point of the game to another, refs are often wildly inconsistent.

Wouldn’t that make the idea that a hard contest on everything put up by the opponent leads to more free throws? They shot 14 more of them. I understand it’s one game so it’s a small window but it does seem to be a common theme

I see what you're saying, I was thinking about our overall aggressiveness, not just contesting their shots. We obviously committed a lot more shooting fouls. It could be us contesting shots or them driving into the lane more than we were (which seemed to be the case), leading to shooting fouls inside. Also, they were fouled at least twice on 3 pointers, which isn't something Izzo likes (but I suppose is related to contesting shots), so that's nearly half of the FT discrepancy right there.

Having similar numbers of fouls, despite a big discrepancy in foul shots, does show that the refs were probably calling a lot of ticky tack borderline stuff, considering that they were blowing the whistle for a foul more than once per minute on average.

[Cameron]

If Langford doesn't come back, the young guys will have to make great strides to give us better odds than last year.

RE: Ward, I honestly don't think we'll miss him at all, unless all our bigs get hurt. At no point in the game last night did I think to myself "man, I miss Ward." Had that thought about McQuaid several times, and Goins at least a couple.

[kingstonlake]

If Langford doesn't come back, the young guys will have to make great strides to give us better odds than last year.

RE: Ward, I honestly don't think we'll miss him at all, unless all our bigs get hurt. At no point in the game last night did I think to myself "man, I miss Ward." Had that thought about McQuaid several times, and Goins at least a couple.

Anytime I saw Kithier with the ball in his hands, I sighed.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

If Langford doesn't come back, the young guys will have to make great strides to give us better odds than last year.

RE: Ward, I honestly don't think we'll miss him at all, unless all our bigs get hurt. At no point in the game last night did I think to myself "man, I miss Ward." Had that thought about McQuaid several times, and Goins at least a couple.

Anytime I saw Kithier with the ball in his hands, I sighed.

Yeah not sure how you could not miss ward. He was playing very well offensively before his hand injury. Interior scoring outside of Tillman could be tough.

[tGreenWay]

Allow me to add a different perspective. I took a quick glance at a few games. Scum/app st Lou/Miami MSU/Tucky Duke/KS. Kentucky shot more free throws than everyone. Is that case of bad officiating or a product of TI coaching defense that contests everything? MSU made more FG than Kentucky but Kentucky short way more free throws. Is the idea on izzos part that contesting everything has an advantage over not fouling? You’re conceding a free throw advantage to the opponent but contesting everything is a net gain overall with the offense you run vs the opponent not as aggressive as you. The two prime time games did have more fouls than the other non prime time games though. Anyway, just a perspective on how TI coaches defense vs the bad officiating idea. Could it be a case of us wanting the game to change the way it’s being called because of how MSU plays defense?

No one granted you allowance to offer your perspective, Kingston, but you continued, anyway. Therefore, you must remove your comments forthwith.

[tGreenWay]

I agree with Pylon that it's too early to tell.

For my part, I think we will miss Goins and McQuaid a lot in the early going. Once we get Langford back and the young guys get their feet wet a bit, I think we'll be in great shape. Just gotta avoid significant injuries, which is the case every year.

I don't think Langford is coming back, TBH. Whatever injury he has is taking way too long to heal correctly.

I agree. IMO, it’s also why he said he’s reconsidering a medical redshirt.

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