The changing landscape of MSU Football

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Also what has tucker done that dantonio didn’t besides maybe being a bit more honest with the media in terms of things like this. The whole Dantonio being an angel thing was a bit overplayed imo.

If Nordic posted anymore he would hate this post but what can ya do

Gifted some of the greatest years of MSU football and still cynical. Awesome.

Heat Miser wrote:BTW...did you all see the shit Mullen just got caught for a Florida? If MSU pulled that shit there would be multi-part investigative reporting from the Detroit rags asking if MSU/CMT is dirty.

LSU had an actual bag man at the Natty game in plain sight on video handing out cash. One year speed bump. tOSU/Tressel gate scandal? One year speed bump. The get Urbs and go undefeated in their "probation" season.

The aforementioned Ole Miss/Freeze mess? Set them back a decade+. Like it or not, we're in the Ole Miss bucket. Maybe the high end of that bucket, but still that bucket.

How do they pull it off? Does the school have more compliance attorneys that figure out loop holes? Bribes? Do they just generate more tv viewership and revenue?

With this season almost cancelled the southern teams pretty much laid out what the terms were and called their shots.

There is a really interesting dynamic at play here...

Turtleneck wrote:There is a really interesting dynamic at play here...

Is it that no one is actually responding to the substance of the original question? Yeah I noticed that, too.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:There is a really interesting dynamic at play here...

Is it that no one is actually responding to the substance of the original question? Yeah I noticed that, too.

There is that, yes. But could we also argue there is subconscious or implicit bias among concerned MSU fans? They have it in their heads that the previous white coach was a total saint, and without evidence believe the new black coach is going to build a cheat machine for a new MSU football factory.

InTenSity wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Also what has tucker done that dantonio didn’t besides maybe being a bit more honest with the media in terms of things like this. The whole Dantonio being an angel thing was a bit overplayed imo.

If Nordic posted anymore he would hate this post but what can ya do

Gifted some of the greatest years of MSU football and still cynical. Awesome.

Yeah, because as proven by history wins determine if someone is a saint.

Turtleneck you’re spot on by the way.

I almost alluded to that in trying to explain where I was going, but I didn't because I thought it was too obvious.

It's ok. It's likely that not everyone follows things at the same level that I do (probably healthy) and I'm also long winded so I don't think everyone probably always reads all the words that I type.

Coach Tuck has made it clear where he's taking the football program. It's spot on with the current state of the sport. Coach D's approach was not flying anymore. That doesn't mean cheating. It means he's a guy who learned under Saban and Meyer and Smart and with an extensive NFL background and he's going to treat this University like a football factory. He's focused on recruiting and marketing and conditioning and talent over character and development. If that wasn't implicitly clear to everyone. It's basically what he says every time he speaks.

And Nigel does raise an interesting point. Part of my premise is based on "processing" kids. But yes this year and situation is unique due to transfer rules. Still, new Coach, my way or highway type, exit meetings and a dozen kids hit the portal immediately after. And then immediately we are bringing in portal transfers. That feels an awful lot like processing to me.

Tucker is legitimately modernizing the way the program is run. From recruiting - no more slow playing, to social media, to scouting the portal, to appointing an attractive female as recruiting coordinator. He gets it.

I'm just not sure that this is where my heart is as an alum. I'm not sure that this environment is why I loved the sport.

I wonder what the # of transfers were after Dantonio's first year vs Tucker's. That way there could be more tangible evidence behind it.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:I wonder what the # of transfers were after Dantonio's first year vs Tucker's. That way there could be more tangible evidence behind it.

Different rules. Don’t know how fair the comparison would be

Appears to be many assumptions in this thread. Maybe we should let it play out for a few years.

https://www.wilx.com/2020/12/23/the-women-behind-msu-football-on-campus-recruiting/

AvgMSUJoe wrote:https://www.wilx.com/2020/12/23/the-women-behind-msu-football-on-campus-recruiting/

Good read.

“We believe in diversity on our staff from top to bottom, [and] what Lisa does and her staff, it’s a team effort,” said MSU Head Football Coach Mel Tucker.

This is the kind of modernization I can get behind.

I don’t know what the problem is to be honest? Yes I’m an outlier that I’m fine with cheating and I view cfb a sport where cheaters are rewarded handsomely however there’s no evidence cheating has happened or going to happen.

I think he’s shown good leadership, represents the school well and added some hope for the future. Let’s not forget the positives. Also, I still don’t know who to attribute the credit the gruff Sparty to but circle back to that god awful alternate logo that Hollis wanted to roll out. That was teal pistons uniform bad. These are positive changes.

Also, I’ll just put this here to add a little perspective.

[tw]1341964156379955200?s=21[/tw]

I have no idea why a five star would want to go to Alabama.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:I have no idea why a five star would want to go to Alabama.

Especially a running back.

kingstonlake wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:

No, we will get busted and the death penalty. If we are dirty, the blue bloods will rat on us a la Woody in the 70s, and the NCAA won't look the other way like they do with the blue bloods.

You’re probably right but for the record Clemson was Irrelevant ten years ago.

That's true, but I would say that a big difference is that Clemson don't have a big blue blood in their state and not really in their conference (kind of FSU and Miami, but I don't see them as OSU/UM/PSU types).

I also dont know to what extent Clemson built up to greatness by being dirty. Not saying that they didn't, or haven't been dirty since, I just dont pay that close of attention to that. I probably just assume that they are shady though.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I’m willing to just watch games on Saturdays and not think too hard about it wbh

Because the alternative is to think hard about it and the game and system will proceed with or without me just the way it is going to no matter what I do.

Unless the wrong person starts the game thread that does make a difference

I don't think about it when I'm watching the games necessarily Travis. But I don't see myself caring as much. Maybe that's just life priorities shifting, as well. In some ways maybe it's in part an excuse to de-prioritize it.

For me, it is partly life priorities, but I feel it is hard to judge my attitude toward sports right now, as nothing feels like a real season or real games during Covid times.

But I have been more relaxed about MSU football in recent years, which I think is because we achieved something that I wasn't sure I would ever see. I've been the same way about MSU basketball for 20 years now. I get high on wins, but brush off losses quickly. A bad loss or a bad season used to make me more down because I felt like it showed just how far away we were from even being competitive.

Coach Mel Tucker wrote:“Our general goal in recruiting is to fill our needs while strengthening our roster from top to bottom,” Tucker said. “We're not just collecting players or chasing stars. We are building a team. The question we ask ourselves of each player we recruit is can this player fit with our team, our culture, and help us win the Big Ten?”

Where do we get "football factory" & "processing players" from that?

MiamiSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

You’re probably right but for the record Clemson was Irrelevant ten years ago.

That's true, but I would say that a big difference is that Clemson don't have a big blue blood in their state and not really in their conference (kind of FSU and Miami, but I don't see them as OSU/UM/PSU types).

I also dont know to what extent Clemson built up to greatness by being dirty. Not saying that they didn't, or haven't been dirty since, I just dont pay that close of attention to that. I probably just assume that they are shady though.

Agree. I wonder if they’ve achieved “blue blood” status though as far as potential punishment goes. If so they’ve achieved it in 10 years out from irrelevancy. There are a couple angles here as far as punishment goes. Recruiting practices and human behavior. Winning big with questionable recruiting practices and big TV ratings is a faster track to blue blood status than winning big with questionable character behavior. Nothing is gonna attract more attention than racial issues and sexual assault. We live in a media hype world.

Btw, the cyclical-ness of football follows coaching staffs. Bama wasn't Bama pre-saban. Same with Dabo. Of course OSU seems immune... Um has been borderline crap since the Bo lineage ended. ND has its ups and downs.
Programs are able to be in the conversation easier with the right coach. Some will never be in the conversation. I hope we are in the first group and Dantonio wasn't the "once in a lifetime"....(Same w Izzo)

Heat Miser wrote:

Coach Mel Tucker wrote:“Our general goal in recruiting is to fill our needs while strengthening our roster from top to bottom,” Tucker said. “We're not just collecting players or chasing stars. We are building a team. The question we ask ourselves of each player we recruit is can this player fit with our team, our culture, and help us win the Big Ten?”

Where do we get "football factory" & "processing players" from that?

I have no idea and there still isn’t anything really backing up wbhs theory. It’s probably insecurities about the program without Dantonio.

Dantonio didn’t run a football factory and got us to the playoff? C’mon now

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

Where do we get "football factory" & "processing players" from that?

I have no idea and there still isn’t anything really backing up wbhs theory. It’s probably insecurities about the program without Dantonio.

Dantonio didn’t run a football factory and got us to the playoff? C’mon now

I think a lot is coming from the amount of kids transferring out.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:


Where do we get "football factory" & "processing players" from that?

I have no idea and there still isn’t anything really backing up wbhs theory. It’s probably insecurities about the program without Dantonio.

Dantonio didn’t run a football factory and got us to the playoff? C’mon now

Maybe by processed he means that MSU is going to grind players into flour for baking, or even load them up with chemicals and sodium and make then into TV dinners. Is this thread about cannibalism, WBH?

Here's more:

“First and foremost, I’m looking for guys that love football,” Tucker said. “That love to practice, like to watch football, like to talk about football — it’s just really important to them. That’s first thing I look for. We have an athletic evaluation on each player and then we have a fit score on each player that we take a commitment from and that we ultimately sign.”

The athletic evaluation that Tucker mentioned varies by position, but is generally focused on things like height, weight, speed, change of direction, balance, body control, explosiveness, ability to get off of blocks, leaping ability, etc.

The “fit score” Tucker brought up is more about health and intangible traits that a prospect may possess. These are questions the staff may ask to people close to the recruit such as high school coaches or counselors. Tucker mentioned things like leadership, coachability, injury history, if that player has been voted a captain, is this player is considered a good teammate, does this player handle constructive criticism well, has this recruit played other sports and so on. The staff will assign a “score” to the prospect based on this information.

The ncaa football model is literally..... a football factory that is designed to produce money for its member institutions. This isn’t an msu specific dynamic. It’s the way the ncaa conducts business.

Another, point of modernization - who didn't enjoy the deep throws this season? The willingness to stick with that play when it was working in the games where we beat ranked teams....I've watched a shit ton of MSU football and as far back as I can remember when we threw the ball deep the feeling in the air at Spartan Stadium was 'whoa now that was nice but lets not get carried away'. A deep throw would be followed up by 18 runs up the middle.

kingstonlake wrote:The ncaa football model is literally..... a football factory that is designed to produce money for its member institutions. This isn’t an msu specific dynamic. It’s the way the ncaa conducts business.

Tucker seems a bit more upfront and honest about this which is refreshing but maybe why wbh is uncomfortable?

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:The ncaa football model is literally..... a football factory that is designed to produce money for its member institutions. This isn’t an msu specific dynamic. It’s the way the ncaa conducts business.

Tucker seems a bit more upfront and honest about this which is refreshing but maybe why wbh is uncomfortable?

If people want clean college sports there's always the Ivy League.

You guys it is a departure. It is a different philosophy than we've been used to for the past 13 years. I said this in the OP. What are your thoughts on it? How comfortable are you with it?

Tucker has made no bones about it. I'm not going to go cherry pick articles but I've watched his pressers and seen his statements. He believes recruiting is the lifeblood of a program. He will move talented kids onto the roster and kids who aren't as talented off of the roster. I never said this was wrong. I said this was the way the game is trending and his way is the right way forward.

IT IS A STARK COMPARISON TO HOW THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE AROUND HERE. Again, the lifeblood of Dantonio's program was character and development. Recruiting regionally in MI and OH. Making sure the player was a fit, had visited campus 3-4x, made sure their family was all in, before he would accept a commitment. Redshirt kids, let them develop on the scout team, etc.

College football has changed. MSU has changed with it. Tucker's way is the way forward. Are you cool with it? Or do you lose a little interest in it?

My god man it's not that hard.

aualum06 wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

Where do we get "football factory" & "processing players" from that?

I have no idea and there still isn’t anything really backing up wbhs theory. It’s probably insecurities about the program without Dantonio.

Dantonio didn’t run a football factory and got us to the playoff? C’mon now

I think a lot is coming from the amount of kids transferring out.

Coach D lost 8 players to the portal last year as a veteran coach with a winning history. Maybe those guys knew he was leaving.

Coach T has now lost 12 in his first year. It's our first coaching change during the "portal era". Double standard or the new normal?

Coach D only added Jayden Reed from the portal. And it was Reed who initiated the contact.

So Coach T is actually tapping into a new talent source that was previously ignored. Coach D avoided Juco's too. Coach T has indicated an openness there. I'd call that a matter of preference rather than a shift to "football factory".

I think everyone can agree Coach D left the cupboard pretty bare. I'd be surprised if any of these guys entering the portal are gonna be "trading up" with their destinations.

WBH: Modernization means transformation and development of a process. It is not unlike the modernization of developing economies, which involves transforming and developing modes of production. These are fundamental changes in process, and WBH is concerned that the program - in particular the players - will be further commodified in these changes to the process.

Steve: Modernization means forward passes.

It’s hard to say how i feel about it because i don’t agree that it’s really any different sorry wbh.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:You guys it is a departure. It is a different philosophy than we've been used to for the past 13 years. I said this in the OP. What are your thoughts on it? How comfortable are you with it? Totally comfortable with it

Tucker has made no bones about it. I'm not going to go cherry pick articles but I've watched his pressers and seen his statements. He believes recruiting is the lifeblood of a program Of course it is! That's not a belief, that's just a fact. He will move talented kids onto the roster and kids who aren't as talented off of the roster every coach wants to upgrade their talent...including Coach D...who did upgrade the talent v what he inherited from tCowboy. I never said this was wrong. I said this was the way the game is trending and his way is the right way forward.

IT IS A STARK COMPARISON TO HOW THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE AROUND HERE. Again, the lifeblood of Dantonio's program was character um...you are familiar with the Rather Hall incident? How about Messiah's "character" recruiting class? and development. Recruiting regionally in MI and OH don't care. Making sure the player was a fit see previous CMT quote, had visited campus 3-4x not possible during Covid this year & last year he had about a week between being hired & signing day. Let's see how things shake out next year, made sure their family was all in, before he would accept a commitment. Redshirt kids Coach D always said the best players play. He burned plenty of redshirts...and some of them were real head-scratchers, let them develop on the scout team, etc.

College football has changed. MSU has changed with it. Tucker's way is the way forward unknown at this point, but you can't argue with his coaching pedigree. Are you cool with it? Totally cool with it...as long as he wins of course Or do you lose a little interest in it?

My god man it's not that hard.

Comments inserted.

Steve = Charlie

#teamSteve because I like nice simple answers

Another point of modernization - the suit with the vest in that pic of him on the team bus with Paul Bunyon by him? Get out of fuckin town. He's definitely brought some modern fashion style and he looked like a fuckin boss.

Totally comfortable with it. MSU hasn’t changed they way it does business, ncaa football has. It’s like when the the law on speed limits went from 55 to 70 and saying I changed the way I drive. It wasn’t my choice. I guess I could have taken surface streets and got there an hour behind everyone else and got leftovers for dinner....

kingstonlake wrote:Totally comfortable with it. MSU hasn’t changed they way it does business, ncaa football has. It’s like when the the law on speed limits went from 55 to 70 and saying I changed the way I drive. It wasn’t my choice. I guess I could have taken surface streets and got there an hour behind everyone else and got leftovers for dinner....

You're right mostly. NCAA has changed. Dantonio didn't change with it, he resisted it. Now MSU has changed with it. It's the only way to go.

I just think it will be different. We're not going to see a Tony Lippett or a Jeremy Langford bounce around position rooms for a couple of years, struggle on the field and then finally pull it together as upper classmen to become all conference type of players. They'll be gone. Connor Cook would be gone. I doubt Jack Conklin ever gets a chance. That might be cool because maybe in place of a developing player who is just contributing drops on Saturdays their spot is filled with a one year grad transfer who isn't making those drops. I was merely trying to state that part of that ^^ is what was appealing and endearing about the sport/our program/MSU to me personally.

Is it a little bit of speculation on my part? Yes. But as I said it's easy enough to read between the lines when you're looking.

kingstonlake wrote:Totally comfortable with it. MSU hasn’t changed they way it does business, ncaa football has. It’s like when the the law on speed limits went from 55 to 70 and saying I changed the way I drive. It wasn’t my choice. I guess I could have taken surface streets and got there an hour behind everyone else and got leftovers for dinner....

It really has...back in my day you used to see a slate of exciting non conference games every year without any hype and it was expected. Just picked a year at random 1998 non-conference games vs Rutgers, Notre Dame and Florida State.

Modern era that would never happen the goal is to line up against teams with inferior talent and run the table. That more than anything has tamped down my interest in the games. You want me to sit for three hours and watch a game that is over in 8 minutes? When OSU used to play home and away games vs Texas or USC I watched. I'm not going to tune in to watch OSU put up 80 against a lower tier school.

So, another portal....
Are these guys being "invited" into the portal as a part of modernization?

AvgMSUJoe wrote:So, another portal....
Are these guys being "invited" into the portal as a part of modernization?

Are portals modern or are they just witchcraft? Steve, seems like you could give a ruling here.