Are we supposed to be upset about Afghanistan?

by **Rocinante** 2021-08-15, 09:02

This was inevitable.

You can’t force freedom.

The taliban has all the weapons we left for the Afghans. But if they stay in Afghanistan, well… [shrug]

Once we bombed Al-Qaeda out we should have left. I said it 20 years ago when I was with my first wife and my children didn’t exist, and my mind had never changed.

Have I at times been hopeful that it would take? Sure. Did I ever really believe it would? No.

by **kingstonlake** 2021-08-15, 13:24

Sure seems like it's the perfect example of a no win situation. Probably take multiple generations of involvement to even think about any type of functional democracy.

by **Cameron** 2021-08-15, 14:33

The Afghan government we apparently desire is evidently so inept that they cannot survive without permanent occupation, which I don't think anyone not profiting from the military industrial complex has any appetite for.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2021-08-15, 15:52

The only thing to be upset about is that it seems pretty stupid that we didn’t evacuate various personnel, Afghan interpreters, etc that we’re now in a mad dash to make sure they don’t get executed, before the military left. Since everyone knew it would go down this way why were all of those people still there?

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2021-08-15, 19:12

I'm sure the mainstream media is having a field day.

My opinion is that we can't police the world. We could've likely had a more gradual withdrawal with orchestrated systems in place but, at some point, countries need to take initiative and govern themselves.

But, yeah, without knowing, I suspect the right wing "America first" patriots and mainstream media are suddenly concerned about Afghanistan and its citizens.

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-15, 20:25

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I'm sure the mainstream media is having a field day.

My opinion is that we can't police the world. We could've likely had a more gradual withdrawal with orchestrated systems in place but, at some point, countries need to take initiative and govern themselves.

But, yeah, without knowing, I suspect the right wing "America first" patriots and mainstream media are suddenly concerned about Afghanistan and its citizens.

The media will make a stink about it for a week or so and then everyone will forget about it once football season gets rollings. I'm betting a hundred years on down the road when China is the world super power in decline they'll attempt to invade Afghanistan and end up in a costly situation they can't win.

by **GRR Spartan** 2021-08-16, 10:29

No one has ever been able to gain control (or shift control) from the tribal war lords in Afghanistan for a long time. Like going back to Alexander The Great and he dies in 323 BC. The tribes unified in 1747. After that the British, the USSR and now the US have all seen their efforts to gain influence fail. Its an isolated country with few exploitable natural resources

End result for the US and world will be heroin's comeback. The Taliban's strength is the centuries tribal old war lord system that controls the areas in Afghanistan where opium poppies are grown. They have been a source of income since at least since the late 1890's when Bayer began producing heroin.

No US politician want's to remember the US most recent involvement in Afghanistan was initially to interfere with Russia's attempted takeover then after 9-11 2001 making it a potential military staging area for controling territory on Iran's eastern border.

PS
The RNC has removed a page from its website raising Trump for his “Historic” peace deal with the Taliban. Really no US pol wants their fingerprints on anything having to do with Afghanistan

https://www.newsweek.com/gop-removes-webpage-praising-trumps-historic-peace-deal-taliban-1619605

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-16, 11:40

[tw]1427283154398814214?s=21[/tw]

Won’t read the article just pointing out what a horse shit take this is. That one is for you, Bob.

by **GRR Spartan** 2021-08-16, 12:44

steveschneider wrote:[tw]1427283154398814214?s=21[/tw]

Won’t read the article just pointing out what a horse shit take this is. That one is for you, Bob.

Sounds like the same people who claim the Jan 6 storming of the Capital were tourists

by **Turtleneck** 2021-08-16, 13:20

GRR Spartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:[tw]1427283154398814214?s=21[/tw]

Won’t read the article just pointing out what a horse shit take this is. That one is for you, Bob.

Sounds like the same people who claim the Jan 6 storming of the Capital were tourists

It's mostly coming from people unbothered by fighting "forever wars" so long as those wars support American imperialism.

The speed at which the Taliban has retaken the country suggests policy failure by the Bush, Obama, and Trump administrations. Obviously Biden was a member of the Obama administration. Clearly the troop surges during the Bush and Obama administrations did not result in long-term success, and the Trump administration dropping the MOAB in 2017 was just so Donny could see big bomb go boom. The MOAB did nothing to deter the Taliban.

Whether a slow or quick withdraw, the result would have been the same because the war has been a stalemate for over a decade.

by **Floyd Robertson** 2021-08-16, 13:39

Trump makes peace deal, releases 5000 Taliban prisoners, including Mullah Baradar who is set to become the new Afghan leader. As part of Trump's deal, U.S. has to pull out by May 2021. Somehow Biden delayed this until August. A month ago Trump is bragging that the process he started can't be stopped, but this is somehow ALL Biden's fault lol.

[tw]1427051039404957697[/tw]

The only thing this administration can be guilty of is underestimating how long it would take the Taliban to seize control. It happened in days not weeks, so that's a pretty big miscalculation in thinking they had more time to get people out. That's some bad intel and guesstimating right there.

by **GRR Spartan** 2021-08-16, 14:19

My sitting stateside opinion based on speaking to some friends who were career people in the US State Department and Pentagon (USN)

They all said multiple times that their experience with Afghanistan and Iraq was every diplomatic and military relationship was transactional. People in charge had “ “What’s in it for me”. Not their country, for them, their family, their tribe. They negotiated with Trump who has always been transactional.

I suspect the Taliban made threats, payoffs or both to get nearly all of the 1000’s of US trained Afghanistan military to lay down their weapons and some possibly joined them.

Just like Osama bin Laden, I suspect there are wealthy members of the Saudi Royal family funding the Taliban to have a caliphate government in Afghanistan. Would not be shocked if Russia has also been funding them or supplying weapons/ammunition to assist and embarrass the Biden Administration.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2021-08-16, 15:00

steveschneider wrote:[tw]1427283154398814214?s=21[/tw]

Won’t read the article just pointing out what a horse shit take this is. That one is for you, Bob.

and being amplified by "Amber Phillips" at the "liberal media" at the Washington Post.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2021-08-16, 15:02

it is pretty funny how the right wing christian hate machine who beat the bigoted drum of "America First" for the last 5-6 years are suddenly a bunch of soft-hearted humanitarians with great concern for the country of Afghanistan and its citizens.

from June of 2020 and the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator's address to West Point graduates.

“We are ending the era of endless wars,” Trump said. It is not the job of American forces “to solve ancient conflicts in faraway lands that many people have not even heard of,” he said.

Are we supposed to be upset about Afghanistan? 502811600

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-16, 15:39

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
steveschneider wrote:[tw]1427283154398814214?s=21[/tw]

Won’t read the article just pointing out what a horse shit take this is. That one is for you, Bob.
and being amplified by "Amber Phillips" at the "liberal media" at the Washington Post.

This is a great day for the media to bend over backwards for the GOP to show that they don't have a liberal bias.

From everything I've seen this move is what the people wanted. Seems like this is a rare policy issue where both sides of the aisle are in alignment.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2021-08-16, 15:48

steveschneider wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote: and being amplified by "Amber Phillips" at the "liberal media" at the Washington Post.

This is a great day for the media to bend over backwards for the GOP to show that they don't have a liberal bias.

From everything I've seen this move is what the people wanted. Seems like this is a rare policy issue where both sides of the aisle are in alignment.

like I said earlier, I suspect the mainstream media is having a field day.

and, of course, I suspect the christian republicans are going on the mainstream media talk shows and are barely able to hold back the tears as they empathize with the Afghans..

by **MiamiSpartan** 2021-08-16, 16:57

GRR Spartan wrote:My sitting stateside opinion based on speaking to some friends who were career people in the US State Department and Pentagon (USN)

They all said multiple times that their experience with Afghanistan and Iraq was every diplomatic and military relationship was transactional. People in charge had “ “What’s in it for me”. Not their country, for them, their family, their tribe. They negotiated with Trump who has always been transactional.

I suspect the Taliban made threats, payoffs or both to get nearly all of the 1000’s of US trained Afghanistan military to lay down their weapons and some possibly joined them.

Just like Osama bin Laden, I suspect there are wealthy members of the Saudi Royal family funding the Taliban to have a caliphate government in Afghanistan. Would not be shocked if Russia has also been funding them or supplying weapons/ammunition to assist and embarrass the Biden Administration.

While that (the part I bolded) may be true in some cases, I dont think it would even take that much. Just simple logic and self preservation. Everyone pretty much knew that the Afghan government/military wouldn't survive without the US, and the Taliban would take power. So if your an Afgan military guy, why die for an inevitable outcome? I mean, unless you're a really hard core anti-Taliban ideologue.

Of course, it all happened more quickly than anyone thought, but perhaps that was an intelligence failure.

Bottom line with the whole thing, if the people don't care enough to stop the Taliban from getting in power then why should we?

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-16, 17:04

Probably the most difficult to accept and spot on takes I've seen are this is probably just what it looks like when you lose a war.

And another one that's difficult for the pundits on TV to accept is this is what the people wanted.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2021-08-16, 18:29

Not popular to say.. and the humanitarian knuckle-scrapers in Mio and their mainstream media heroes won't like it..

but I'm more concerned with COVID in America than I am with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

by **Jake from State Farm** 2021-08-16, 18:37

steveschneider wrote:Probably the most difficult to accept and spot on takes I've seen are this is probably just what it looks like when you lose a war.

And another one that's difficult for the pundits on TV to accept is this is what the people wanted.

Maybe next time this country will think twice before trying to force democracy down another country's throat. Nah, that'll never happen.

by **GRR Spartan** 2021-08-16, 19:11

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Not popular to say.. and the humanitarian knuckle-scrapers in Mio and their mainstream media heroes won't like it..

but I'm more concerned with COVID in America than I am with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Spot on Bobby Sak

by **DWags** 2021-08-16, 21:15

Jake from State Farm wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Probably the most difficult to accept and spot on takes I've seen are this is probably just what it looks like when you lose a war.

And another one that's difficult for the pundits on TV to accept is this is what the people wanted.

Maybe next time this country will think twice before trying to force democracy down another country's throat. Nah, that'll never happen.

We never learned that lesson in Vietnam. Why should we learn it now.

by **DWags** 2021-08-16, 21:17

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

This is a great day for the media to bend over backwards for the GOP to show that they don't have a liberal bias.

From everything I've seen this move is what the people wanted. Seems like this is a rare policy issue where both sides of the aisle are in alignment.
like I said earlier, I suspect the mainstream media is having a field day.

and, of course, I suspect the christian republicans are going on the mainstream media talk shows and are barely able to hold back the tears as they empathize with the Afghans..

The “America first” right wing bullshit and social media memes are now changing to “except Afghanistan “

by **Turtleneck** 2021-08-16, 21:22

DWags wrote:
Jake from State Farm wrote:

Maybe next time this country will think twice before trying to force democracy down another country's throat. Nah, that'll never happen.

We never learned that lesson in Vietnam. Why should we learn it now.

Are we supposed to be upset about Afghanistan? Mqdefault

by **Turtleneck** 2021-08-16, 22:06

[tw]1427294742824591363?s=21[/tw]

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-16, 22:56

[tw]1427391740063924227?s=21[/tw]

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2021-08-17, 05:22

Turtleneck wrote:[tw]1427294742824591363?s=21[/tw]

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-17, 06:29

Rough week for the beltway press. They love war and it’s like someone took away their toys.

I’m also reminded of that time we bombed Syria and during a broadcast Brian Williams quoted Leonard Cohen and was mesmerized by the beauty of the missile launching.

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-17, 06:38

[tw]1427376890403295236?s=21[/tw]

by **kingstonlake** 2021-08-17, 08:07

steveschneider wrote:Rough week for the beltway press. They love war and it’s like someone took away their toys.

I’m also reminded of that time we bombed Syria and during a broadcast Brian Williams quoted Leonard Cohen and was mesmerized by the beauty of the missile launching.

Is it a bad thing that I don't know any of the names you mentioned?

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2021-08-17, 08:24

kingstonlake wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Rough week for the beltway press. They love war and it’s like someone took away their toys.

I’m also reminded of that time we bombed Syria and during a broadcast Brian Williams quoted Leonard Cohen and was mesmerized by the beauty of the missile launching.

Is it a bad thing that I don't know any of the names you mentioned?

you don't know Leonard Cohen..??

Are we supposed to be upset about Afghanistan? 46a

by **Jake from State Farm** 2021-08-17, 08:42

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-17, 08:56

kingstonlake wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Rough week for the beltway press. They love war and it’s like someone took away their toys.

I’m also reminded of that time we bombed Syria and during a broadcast Brian Williams quoted Leonard Cohen and was mesmerized by the beauty of the missile launching.

Is it a bad thing that I don't know any of the names you mentioned?

Yes. You might have to update your ‘greatest song of all time’ thread once you get some Leonard Cohen.

by **kingstonlake** 2021-08-17, 09:02

I mean I've heard the name, but couldn't pick him out of a band, Twitter feed, or pundit column.

by **Cameron** 2021-08-17, 10:25

Hallelujah is no Cake By The Ocean, to be sure...

by **steveschneider** 2021-08-17, 10:37

[tw]850204332758716420?s=20[/tw]

Sounds like he's going to need a box of Kleenex and some Jergens.

by **GRR Spartan** 2021-08-17, 11:05

It’s easy to ask why we didn’t evacuate Afghan nationals who assisted the US but the cold hard truth based on how many Afghans chose to let the Taliban take control is I don’t think everyone who helped the US was necessarily an ally and would have given the Taliban a heads up on too many details.

Good to see FL US Senator is worried about the deficit again. He wasn’t concerned when he voted for the 2017 Tax Act that cut Federal revenue and cut his taxes (he’s the richest US Senator @ $250M+)

by **kingstonlake** 2021-08-17, 11:31

Cameron wrote:Hallelujah is no Cake By The Ocean, to be sure...

This guy gets it.

by **kingstonlake** 2021-08-17, 11:33

GRR Spartan wrote:It’s easy to ask why we didn’t evacuate Afghan nationals who assisted the US but the cold hard truth based on how many Afghans chose to let the Taliban take control is I don’t think everyone who helped the US was necessarily an ally and would have given the Taliban a heads up on too many details.

Good to see FL US Senator is worried about the deficit again. He wasn’t concerned when he voted for the 2017 Tax Act that cut Federal revenue and cut his taxes (he’s the richest US Senator @ $250M+)

You can almost draw a straight line between that and extremist in the GOP. The mainstream or moderates know they're bat shit fucking crazy. But they won't break completely from them.

by **Turtleneck** 2021-08-17, 12:19

"The buck stops with me" versus "I don't take responsibility at all."

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