Should Michigan Change Its Flat Rate Income Tax?

Started sort of wondering this a few days ago when I saw a (link attached) Michigan Advance editorial, now this story about the Kansas Governor vetoing a flat rate income tax remined me.

The argument for progressive taxes is twofold. One it, the "Willie Sutton" argument, aka taxing those who have enough money that their ability to have the basic necessities of life will not be affected, and two, the State needs more money to provide the services that keep people living in the state instead of moving away.

Studies show that by having a flat income tax rate, combined with other taxes & fees, Michigan is taxing regressively, aka the lower income levels pay more of their income in taxes then the higher income levels.

https://apnews.com/article/kansas-income-tax-cuts-budget-veto-kelly-1c321169e87d69480efe91db0ef55f28

https://michiganadvance.com/2024/01/26/a-stronger-more-equitable-revenue-system-is-essential-to-fully-investing-in-michiganders/

Trapper Gus wrote: the State needs more money to provide the services that keep people living in the state instead of moving away.

Wait a minute.

I was told people will move here for the conception to birth abortions?

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote: the State needs more money to provide the services that keep people living in the state instead of moving away.

Wait a minute.

I was told people will move here for the conception to birth abortions?  

They also want Good Schools & Good Roads, which 40 years of Republican control of the state destroyed.

and yes, the right for freedom of proper health care also is important.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote: the State needs more money to provide the services that keep people living in the state instead of moving away.

Wait a minute.

I was told people will move here for the conception to birth abortions?

No, but they certainly won't move away. But yeah, like a true RWN, twist that around. I'm sure you'd love to have your sister, wife, mom, aunt, cousin preganant in texas with a life threatening possibility. I have no doubt actually. That's just crazy.

And, by the way, anyone who uses the term "conception TO BIRTH" abortions is a RWN dead giveaway, don't give a shit about women, or their rights political hack. Less than 1 % of abortions happen in the third trimester. a miniscule .005% in the 9th month. Jesus.

DWags wrote:And, by the way, anyone who uses the term "conception TO BIRTH" abortions is a RWN dead giveaway, don't give a shit about women, or their rights political hack. Less than 1 % of abortions happen in the third trimester. a miniscule .005% in the 9th month. Jesus.

It can be argued that an abortion at conception is called birth control, not abortion.

Trapper Gus wrote:

DWags wrote:And, by the way, anyone who uses the term "conception TO BIRTH" abortions is a RWN dead giveaway, don't give a shit about women, or their rights political hack. Less than 1 % of abortions happen in the third trimester. a miniscule .005% in the 9th month. Jesus.

It can be argued that an abortion at conception is called birth control, not abortion.

Few topics get me so enraged towards the RWN who are 110% male and just assholes. Examploe, a fetus brain does not start developing until the 24th week. If a doctor calls you up and says during your 28th or 29th week that your fetus has no sign of brain development whatsoever, do you continue that pregnancy? Think about that. you will most likely have a still born in another month. In Texas, guess what you're doing?

Michigan would allow the option. And I can't stress this enough, because the RWN's will twist this shit around. That is just one of many examples of a third trimester reason for abortion, AND YET, there is less that 1% of these performed. LESS THAN.

Idiots. all of them are just power hungry eager to control women beause they could never land that girl they wanted in H.S. or college. Just bitter angry morons.

DWags wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

It can be argued that an abortion at conception is called birth control, not abortion.

Few topics get me so enraged towards the RWN who are 110% male and just assholes. Examploe, a fetus brain does not start developing until the 24th week. If a doctor calls you up and says during your 28th or 29th week that your fetus has no sign of brain development whatsoever, do you continue that pregnancy? Think about that. you will most likely have a still born in another month. In Texas, guess what you're doing?

Michigan would allow the option. And I can't stress this enough, because the RWN's will twist this shit around. That is just one of many examples of a third trimester reason for abortion, AND YET, there is less that 1% of these performed. LESS THAN.

Idiots. all of them are just power hungry eager to control women beause they could never land that girl they wanted in H.S. or college. Just bitter angry morons.

I agree with 99% of this, however, sadly, there are women who also support this shit, many for religious reasons, others because they are standing by their man.

Trapper Gus wrote:

DWags wrote:

Few topics get me so enraged towards the RWN who are 110% male and just assholes. Examploe, a fetus brain does not start developing until the 24th week. If a doctor calls you up and says during your 28th or 29th week that your fetus has no sign of brain development whatsoever, do you continue that pregnancy? Think about that. you will most likely have a still born in another month. In Texas, guess what you're doing?

Michigan would allow the option. And I can't stress this enough, because the RWN's will twist this shit around. That is just one of many examples of a third trimester reason for abortion, AND YET, there is less that 1% of these performed. LESS THAN.

Idiots. all of them are just power hungry eager to control women beause they could never land that girl they wanted in H.S. or college. Just bitter angry morons.

I agree with 99% of this, however, sadly, there are women who also support this shit, many for religious reasons, others because they are standing by their man.

Yep. Agree. and lord, who would want to be married to that?

DWags wrote:

Zurn wrote:

Wait a minute.

I was told people will move here for the conception to birth abortions?

No, but they certainly won't move away. But yeah, like a true RWN, twist that around. I'm sure you'd love to have your sister, wife, mom, aunt, cousin preganant in texas with a life threatening possibility. I have no doubt actually. That's just crazy.

In the case of a life-threatening situation involving a pregnancy an abortion is never necessary. Ending the pregnancy may be necessary but that doesn't mandate abortion.

DWags wrote:And, by the way, anyone who uses the term "conception TO BIRTH" abortions is a RWN dead giveaway, don't give a shit about women, or their rights political hack. Less than 1 % of abortions happen in the third trimester. a miniscule .005% in the 9th month. Jesus.

My only point is that leftists support unlimited abortion from conception to birth. If you favor some restrictions on abortion I will stand corrected. Otherwise don't get mad at me for stating your position.

DWags wrote:Examploe, a fetus brain does not start developing until the 24th week.

This is absolutely wrong.

A baby's brain begins to develop within the first 4 weeks of pregnancy and continues to develop well after birth.

Zurn wrote:

DWags wrote:Examploe, a fetus brain does not start developing until the 24th week.

This is absolutely wrong.

A baby's brain begins to develop within the first 4 weeks of pregnancy and continues to develop well after birth.

Like many things that zealots try to put a number on it just isn't that simple.

All sorts of development during pregnancy are on a continuum.

Reading through this, a functioning human brain, with brain waves, isn't really there until about week 28. Effectively the start of the 3rd trimester.

Even then the brain triples in weight in the final trimester, and since brain function is a function not of the number of neurons alone, but of the number of connections between neurons, it is reasonable to believe that the growth of brain function is on an exponential curve during that time.

Link to Health Article On Brain Development During Pregnacy.

Zurn wrote:

DWags wrote:And, by the way, anyone who uses the term "conception TO BIRTH" abortions is a RWN dead giveaway, don't give a shit about women, or their rights political hack.   Less than 1 % of abortions happen in the third trimester.  a miniscule .005% in the 9th month.  Jesus.

My only point is that leftists support unlimited abortion from conception to birth.  If you favor some restrictions on abortion I will stand corrected.  Otherwise don't get mad at me for stating your position.  

Oh please, that is such a right-wing nut job talking point that you discredit anything you are trying to say by posting it.

Generally, a majority of the people in this country have supported on demand abortions up to the start of the third trimester, and then during the third trimester abortions deemed medically necessary in the third trimester.  The deemed medically necessary is a question to be resolved between the pregnant woman and her doctors, the state has a secondary right here, which is why the medically necessary clause is used, as on demand abortions in the third trimesters are sometimes dealing with a viable birth.

These standards go back hundreds, and sometimes depending on culture, thousands, of years.

The Catholic Church allowed that the thing inside the woman wasn't a person until first breath for centuries, and then allowed that it wasn't a person until quickening (when movement starts) after that until about 1870.  State laws in the US allowed abortions until quickening until about the same time and were only changed due to a power grab by the AMA.

Jewish Law, which would go back another few thousand years before the Catholic Chrcuh existed allowed abortions to protect the heath of the mother, as the mother, being a living soul is more important that the thing inside her.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Zurn wrote:

This is absolutely wrong.

A baby's brain begins to develop within the first 4 weeks of pregnancy and continues to develop well after birth.

Like many things that zealots try to put a number on it just isn't that simple.

All sorts of development during pregnancy are on a continuum.

Reading through this, a functioning human brain, with brain waves, isn't really there until about week 28. Effectively the start of the 3rd trimester.

Even then the brain triples in weight in the final trimester, and since brain function is a function not of the number of neurons alone, but of the number of connections between neurons, it is reasonable to believe that the growth of brain function is on an exponential curve during that time.

Link to Health Article On Brain Development During Pregnacy.

This. RWN’s only want to control women. Know why? 50% of all men never experience a real intimate relationship with a woman. It is why they want to control them.

Zurn wrote:

DWags wrote:

No, but they certainly won't move away.   But yeah, like a true RWN, twist that around.  I'm sure you'd love to have your sister, wife, mom, aunt, cousin preganant in texas with a life threatening possibility.   I have no doubt actually.  That's just crazy.

In the case of a life-threatening situation involving a pregnancy an abortion is never necessary.   Ending the pregnancy may be necessary but that doesn't mandate abortion.

A recent case in Texas was decided in favor of no one but the state.  The thing inside the woman was dead and the woman's life, and her ability to have more pregnancies was at very high risk.  It is total bull shit that the state said she had to continue until "birth" as there was no point to that other than what DWags said, aka morally corrupt people (men mostly) trying to harm other peoples health.

Also, the statistics show that the position you are supporting(?) here is killing real living women, why do you want to do that to protect only potential babies?

“We know that is happening. … That’s not speculation. … That is factually accurate to say. …We’re seeing maternal mortality literally twice as high in areas where you have abortion bans than in states like ours where you don’t,” Nessel said. “These are real-world harms; we’re talking about women unnecessarily dying. …The real harm here isn’t that we passed Prop 3. The real harm would have been if we hadn’t had done that.”

https://michiganadvance.com/2024/01/30/nessel-asks-for-dismissal-of-right-to-life-lawsuit-to-repeal-michigan-abortion-rights-amendment/

Trapper Gus wrote:

Like many things that zealots try to put a number on it just isn't that simple.

Labeled a zealot for stating something I learned in Embryology 101.

DWags wrote:


This. RWN’s only want to control women. Know why? 50% of all men never experience a real intimate relationship with a woman. It is why they want to control them.

After saying that the brain doesn't start to develop until 24 weeks you followed by highlighting a link that says the brain is actually functioning by 6 weeks.

Not exactly sure what you think a RWN is. Not familiar with the term. But I suspect there is more to a person's view on abortion than a desire to control women. (an odd take, IMO).

I've been pretty happy with my intimate relationships with women over the years, just for the record.

DWags wrote:And, by the way, anyone who uses the term "conception TO BIRTH" abortions is a RWN dead giveaway, don't give a shit about women, or their rights political hack. Less than 1 % of abortions happen in the third trimester. a miniscule .005% in the 9th month. Jesus.

religion poisons their minds.

Trapper Gus wrote:We’re seeing maternal mortality literally twice as high in areas where you have abortion bans than in states like ours where you don’t

Imagine that Einstein.

Abort all pregnancies and the maternal mortality rate will be zero.

A group calling themselves axMITaa got approval for summary language for a petition to ELIMINATE all property taxes, shift the taxing bodies to local government and set in place obstacles to raising taxes in the future.

It’s a blow it all up strategy I suspect is being financed by the same folks who want to privatize everything from K-12 and university education to state highways

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2024/01/20/ballot-proposal-seeking-to-eliminate-michigans-property-tax-advances/72285682007/

GRR Spartan wrote:A group calling themselves axMITaa got approval for summary language for a petition to ELIMINATE all property taxes, shift the taxing bodies to local government and set in place obstacles to raising taxes in the future.

It’s a blow it all up strategy I suspect is being financed by the same folks who want to privatize everything from K-12 and university education to state highways

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2024/01/20/ballot-proposal-seeking-to-eliminate-michigans-property-tax-advances/72285682007/

the religious fundamentalists will stop at nothing when it comes to controlling women, families, children.

Zurn wrote:

DWags wrote:


This. RWN’s only want to control women. Know why?  50% of all men never experience a real intimate relationship with a woman.   It is why they want to control them.

After saying that the brain doesn't start to develop until 24 weeks you followed by highlighting a link that says the brain is actually functioning by 6 weeks.

Not exactly sure what you think a RWN is.   Not familiar with the term.   But I suspect there is more to a person's view on abortion than a desire to control women.  (an odd take, IMO).

I've been pretty happy with my intimate relationships with women over the years, just for the record.

Still trying to apply a black and white point to a continuing process.  The link clearly points out no brain like activity until 28 weeks, if you must use a number.  Before that it is just a nerve system, like an earth worm.

GRR Spartan wrote:A group calling themselves axMITaa got approval for summary language for a petition to ELIMINATE all property taxes, shift the taxing bodies to local government and set in place obstacles to raising taxes in the future.

It’s a blow it all up strategy I suspect is being financed by the same folks who want to privatize everything from K-12 and university education to state highways

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2024/01/20/ballot-proposal-seeking-to-eliminate-michigans-property-tax-advances/72285682007/

Probably just an effort to get their voters to the polls.

GRR Spartan wrote:A group calling themselves axMITaa got approval for summary language for a petition to ELIMINATE all property taxes, shift the taxing bodies to local government and set in place obstacles to raising taxes in the future.

It’s a blow it all up strategy I suspect is being financed by the same folks who want to privatize everything from K-12 and university education to state highways

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2024/01/20/ballot-proposal-seeking-to-eliminate-michigans-property-tax-advances/72285682007/

I would think getting rid of property taxes would be something left wingers would support.   Property taxes are a major impediment to get people to move to cities like Detroit while people in Birmingham live in a $2,000,000 house while only paying taxes on the purchase value capped by your beloved government.

Trapper Gus wrote:  The link clearly points out no brain like activity until 28 weeks

Directly from your link:

Ultrasounds can reveal the embryo moving as early as 6 weeks after conception (or 8 pregnancy weeks), detecting the electrical impulses that govern movement and indicating that the brain is beginning to function.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:  The link clearly points out no brain like activity until 28 weeks

Directly from your link:

Ultrasounds can reveal the embryo moving as early as 6 weeks after conception (or 8 pregnancy weeks), detecting the electrical impulses that govern movement and indicating that the brain is beginning to function.

My points are also directly from the link and point to no brain function that would be higher than a earth worm before 28 weeks.

If you want to have a theological discussion about when.it is more than a potential then I'm going with a semi-human brain and body able to live without its host.

My point mirrors what the Catholic Church said prior to 1870, and they had nothing but one bishop who wrote a paper about nothing to change their opinion from "first breath" then.

Trapper Gus wrote:

My point mirrors what the Catholic Church said prior to 1870, and they had nothing but one bishop who wrote a paper about nothing to change their opinion from "first breath" then.

Science has advanced since 1870 but your posting suggests you haven't

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

My point mirrors what the Catholic Church said prior to 1870, and they had nothing but one bishop who wrote a paper about nothing to change their opinion from "first breath" then.

Science has advanced since 1870 but your posting suggests you haven't

The science says it isn't a human being as such until 28 weeks then, brain waves dude, and medically viable with some special medical care outside the womb.

So, after 28 weeks, and most people and the law say 24 weeks, abortions are done when deemed medically necessary, as determined by the woman's doctor(s) & the woman, i.e. when the thing inside the woman is dead, or will die when born, or when the choice is high risk of death or health complications for the women.

Exactly what the church and common sense said in 1870.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Zurn wrote:

Science has advanced since 1870 but your posting suggests you haven't

The science says it isn't a human being as such until 28 weeks then, brain waves dude.

So, after 28 weeks, and most people and the law say 24 weeks, abortions are done when deemed medically necessary, as determined by the woman's doctor(s) & the woman, i.e. when the thing inside the woman is dead, or will die when born, or when the choice is high risk of death or health complications for the women.

Exactly what the church and common sense said in 1870.

regardless of his religious mental gymnastics, ya gotta admit.. it's pretty awesome that our resident "pro-life" poster is cool with genocide.

Rakolta, speaking at the Detroit Regional Chamber Detroit Policy Conference last month, said there should be no talk about new taxes until the state develops a tax structure that’s “appropriate for the 21st century.”

Progrssive graduated income tax is my first choice.

https://michiganadvance.com/2024/02/18/rick-haglund-lots-of-ideas-to-overhaul-michigans-tax-system-but-little-agreement-on-what-to-do/