Game of Thrones - Final Season

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Varys went from one of the brightest minds in the show to one of the dumbest in one episode. That was a neat change of pace. Arya’s superhero scene was epic. Looked like she was Spider-Man. Love it!

Yawn

Not really. He understood what she was capable of, while others either willingly ignored her messiah complex or were blind to it. Jon Snow has always been kind of naive, but the real story here is how Tyrion ever thought she would make the right choice. It was like he suddenly forgot the world he grew up in. Varys knew she had to go, he was smart enough to realize the throne, or allure of the throne, only corrupts even the best intentioned. There was no time for plotting. He drew up a play and took his shot. He missed.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:One last thing - how about that dragon burning an entire city and army by itself?! If only they had dragons the last few seasons i can’t imagine it would have taken this long for danerys to take over. It was unstoppable! What a satisfying ending to the show.

The dragon thing was dumb considering last week they killed one and ran her off pretty easily.

Turtleneck wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Varys went from one of the brightest minds in the show to one of the dumbest in one episode. That was a neat change of pace. Arya’s superhero scene was epic. Looked like she was Spider-Man. Love it!

It was like he suddenly *and magically for no reason at all whatsoever* forgot the world he grew up in.

FTFY

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

It was like he suddenly *and magically for no reason at all whatsoever* forgot the world he grew up in.

FTFY

Yes. I would take more issues with Tyrion’s sudden lack of good judgement and foresight. It’s not that Tyrion didn’t see the potential for her to lose her mind, but he just pretended it wasn’t real or buried it in the back of his head. Maybe this is what happens when people think the world can be more just...it can’t.

Turtleneck wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

FTFY

Yes. I would take more issues with Tyrion’s sudden lack of good judgement and foresight. It’s not that Tyrion didn’t see the potential for her to lose her mind, but he just pretended it wasn’t real or buried it in the back of his head. Maybe this is what happens when people think the world can be more just...it can’t.

I feel like you’re talking about the swill right now and I don’t approve of it.

OK, one last thing before I move on from what happened last night. They totally fucked up Dany's turn to a crazy tyrant. How do you go from I'm going to rid this land of evil oppressors in King's Landing to fuck this shit, I'm burning every last mother fucker in this city in one episode?

Yeah you can say this has been hinted at for a while, but not very effectively. At what point in this series did she even entertain the thought of murdering innocent civilians? Just the previous episode from what I recall. You don't go from benevolent ruler of a kingdom (in her mind) to raging psychopath in two god damn episodes.

Like I said last night, I do like that they didn't let Dany have a happy ending... probably dictated from GRRM, but how they got there was just stupid. Also, where did all the Dothraki and Unsullied come from? Did they have reserves somewhere other than Winterfell? Because it looked like only about five Dothraki survived that battle.

Anyway, here is how it will end. Dany claims victory over the ashes. Jon won't know what to do because he's fucking stupid. Arya will get caught trying to assassinate Dany and sentenced to die by barbecue. Bran wargs into the dragon at the last minute and eats Dany. The ever expanding Dothraki/Unsullied army quits and swims back to the other continent. Bran breaks the 4th wall and looks at the camera and apologizes to everyone watching for not finishing the source material in time for the show to end. Roll credits.

I had 2 thoughts on how it ends, both wrong.

1. Dany and Jon become the new defacto Cersei and Jamie. The parallels become more obvious and the show ends there.
2. Jon gets the dragon to tun on Dany and listen to him.

I really wish the Night King would come back.

Sepinwall states points about Drogon/scorpions and Dany's actions a little bit better than I do.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-reviews/game-of-thrones-review-bells-sepinwall-834528/

Na... The whole Danys heel thing is just downright stupid. Her entire character since her bro got golded has been about helping the commoners.
Two scowls into the camera later and she's frying all the civilians (and not even targeting Cerci?) If she flew the dragon up and fried Cerci first... then decided to take the rest out... maybe? (I guess, bloodlust)... Nah, Still dumb. And the 2 smartest guys in the 7 kingdoms (Tyrion and Vayres) can't read this in her?
And Ayra's entire being was devoted to revenge (years spent preparing to kill Cerci)... Hound says "Maybe you shouldn't go" and shes all...."Cool, K"... Dumb.

This is ending in a giant disappointing clusterfuck.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Na... The whole Danys heel thing is just downright stupid. Her entire character since her bro got golded has been about helping the commoners.
Two scowls into the camera later and she's frying all the civilians (and not even targeting Cerci?) If she flew the dragon up and fried Cerci first... then decided to take the rest out... maybe? (I guess, bloodlust)... Nah, Still dumb. And the 2 smartest guys in the 7 kingdoms (Tyrion and Vayres) can't read this in her?
And Ayra's entire being was devoted to revenge (years spent preparing to kill Cerci)... Hound says "Maybe you shouldn't go" and shes all...."Cool, K"... Dumb.

This is ending in a giant disappointing clusterfuck.

This guy gets it.

Feels like Tyrion hasn't been smart in about 3 seasons.

Did you see Rodgers last night? My wife said she didn't. But some sharp eyed peopel on a green bay message board are saying they did.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Feels like Tyrion hasn't been smart in about 3 seasons.

And Varys was a master "game player"... little birds and whatnot. The thing that gets him fried is stating a fact back to Jon Snow?

AvgMSUJoe wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Feels like Tyrion hasn't been smart in about 3 seasons.

And Varys was a master "game player"... little birds and whatnot. The thing that gets him fried is stating a fact back to Jon Snow?

Yeah, just another out of character move made to wrap this thing up. I can’t get over how bad that scene with the mountain and his brother was. It was straight out of lord of the rings or Star Wars, y’all tell me which.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Mtn is Vader?

I suppose I'll go with Star Wars.

(This was after the mask came off.)

Show sucks now.

BTW...

IRL Mountain with his girlfriend. Can't believe the sex would be enjoyable for her. For all the press big dongs get, her insides must be in a constant state of bruising.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Mtn is Vader?

I suppose I'll go with Star Wars.

(This was after the mask came off.)

Valid.

It has to end somehow and people are going to complain no matter what. I didn’t think it was that bad.

The irony in all of this, is that it might spook GRRM. At this point, it is going to be like Star Wars, its been too long between books and there are too many theories. Had he written and released the books every 2-4 years, it would be quick enough to quell any grumblings about how things went. At this point the books and everything in them have been dissected so much, that even trying to divert from certain story lines is going to cause grumblings. I have read, that Dany destroying Kings Landing, is probably from the original story, because GRRM did go over how he had things ending. It would make sense, but I agree with most that how they got to this point didn't make a lot of sense.
Oh well. One more episode, then everyone will be happy, right?

I guess I'm in the minority of fans who think the episode was, well, in many ways, spectacular. The unexpected happened for most of the characters. I thought Jaime was heading back to kill Cercei, but naw. Instead he was feeling guilty for having cheated on her (the only time he ever did) with one of the most honorable characters in the show. He just couldn't escape the clutches of his hateful, spiteful sister. Lots of thoughts and emotions with the way they ended. When I thought about it, perfect that they died together in rubble where the dragon skeletons resided.

Many people on twitter were upset that Dany decided in an instant to burn the city down after hearing the bells. Actually that rage had been filling her for her entire life. As a child she had no permanent home, had to hide from assassins sent by the ruler from King's Landing. She was sold to the Khal. She went through hell in exile. There she was, with the motive and means to burn that city down. She was her father's daughter after all. Burn them, burn them all. She even ignited the nasty wildfire that still sat unused in the tunnels. Did we really think she would be anything other than a Mad Targaryen?

Viewers were also upset that Arya gave up her desire to kill Cercei with just a few words from Sandor. That's how they were with each other--an understanding that took very few words. She knew he was right and was smart enough to accept his words. Of all the characters, Arya has developed the most and walking away demonstrated maturation. It was perfect that she rode off through the ashes on a white horse.

Jon Snow was sooooo predictable. If any of the characters disappoint me, it is Jon. Like his father/uncle he walks away from ruling the people. Is it too hard to rule and remain principled? Will he still love Dany after this carnage; if/when she decides to execute him? (Time will tell--thankfully that time is only a week away.)

The episode was visually stunning. The music deserves any and every award it's qualified for. They had 6 episodes to wrap it up so, of course, the story arcs are shorthand compared to the detailed writing of GRRM. So does Arya kill Dany and Jon kill the dragon? Will Sansa sit on the throne? We don't have to wait too long to find out.

Help me out.. What exactly is Dany's motive to burn thousands of innocent civilians and some of her own soldiers alive? I'm not seeing that one.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Help me out.. What exactly is Dany's motive to burn thousands of innocent civilians and some of her own soldiers alive? I'm not seeing that one.

From Dany's POV: For starters, the rebellion that left her father dead, stabbed in the back by Jaime Lannister. The genocide of Targaryans that made her an exile with no home, no country, no loved ones except her cruel brother. She had hate for the city before she ever laid eyes on it. She hated Cercei and by extension, the people she ruled--people who exterminated her family.

I appreciate you NWS but I'm not buying any of that. It was a transparent desperate attempt to turn her into the mad queen because they were running out of time. It was nonsensical and a complete break from the character they sold us for 8 seasons.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:One last thing - how about that dragon burning an entire city and army by itself?! If only they had dragons the last few seasons i can’t imagine it would have taken this long for danerys to take over. It was unstoppable! What a satisfying ending to the show.

She only got to Westeros last season and she wanted to roll right up and get medieval on there asses but her advisers convinced her not to.

I don't get everyone's problem with Dani's turn. They've been foreshadowing this for 7 striaght seasons. It's not abrupt at all. She's always been cruel and overreacting. We just didn't care because she was doing it to people we didn't like. She's threatened to burn down cities on numerous occasions. Hell she threatened to come back when her dragons were grown and burn down Qarth simply because they wouldn't open the door. Also there was all those visions of Kings Landing in ruins with what we thought was snow falling, but it turned out it's ash. The Queen of the Ashes theory was almost as obvious at R+L=J

StylesGShmooth wrote:I don't get everyone's problem with Dani's turn. They've been foreshadowing this for 7 striaght seasons. It's not abrupt at all. She's always been cruel and overreacting. We just didn't care because she was doing it to people we didn't like. She's threatened to burn down cities on numerous occasions. Hell she threatened to come back when her dragons were grown and burn down Qarth simply because they wouldn't open the door. Also there was all those visions of Kings Landing in ruins with what we thought was snow falling, but it turned out it's ash. The Queen of the Ashes theory was almost as obvious at R+L=J

The implication was that she wanted to burn down KL to get to Cersei. Take out Cersei and her armies or the enemy and if civilians are caught in the crossfire so be it. And when she was talked out of it, she always seemed to come back to that position because she agreed that there was no need to kill a bunch of Innocents.

This was over the top. Like go burn down that red Jeep or whatever they can it that Cersei is in because you hate her. Burn up the streets and kill the soldiers and if some peasants die so be it. But then it just got silly. I didn't even understand what I was watching at first because there was such a disconnect with what had been normal.

Whatever though. It was entertaining and will set up an entertaining 90 minutes next Sunday .

I’m with the positives on this episode. She didn’t hate Cercie exclusively. She hated everything that was done to her family. She hated the fact that she would never be loved, she hated herself for leaving whatever that other land is called. All the people who checked her aggression are dead. It didn’t make perfect sense but it made SOME sense.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I appreciate you NWS but I'm not buying any of that. It was a transparent desperate attempt to turn her into the mad queen because they were running out of time. It was nonsensical and a complete break from the character they sold us for 8 seasons.

There was numerous warnings; she did, after all, calmly watch her brother burn to death without a flinch. She's a complicated soul. IMO, the big clue in the last couple of episodes is how Varys reacts to Dany. He spent years serving her because he thought she was best for the realm. He was adamant that she should sit on the Iron Throne, but he knew something about her that changed his mind. He wouldn't have done that on a whimsy.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

StylesGShmooth wrote:I don't get everyone's problem with Dani's turn. They've been foreshadowing this for 7 striaght seasons. It's not abrupt at all. She's always been cruel and overreacting. We just didn't care because she was doing it to people we didn't like. She's threatened to burn down cities on numerous occasions. Hell she threatened to come back when her dragons were grown and burn down Qarth simply because they wouldn't open the door. Also there was all those visions of Kings Landing in ruins with what we thought was snow falling, but it turned out it's ash. The Queen of the Ashes theory was almost as obvious at R+L=J

The implication was that she wanted to burn down KL to get to Cersei. Take out Cersei and her armies or the enemy and if civilians are caught in the crossfire so be it. And when she was talked out of it, she always seemed to come back to that position because she agreed that there was no need to kill a bunch of Innocents.

This was over the top. Like go burn down that red Jeep or whatever they can it that Cersei is in because you hate her. Burn up the streets and kill the soldiers and if some peasants die so be it. But then it just got silly. I didn't even understand what I was watching at first because there was such a disconnect with what had been normal.

Whatever though. It was entertaining and will set up an entertaining 90 minutes next Sunday .

The audience is lulled into believing Dany did not want to kill "innocents." She doesn't actually verbalize it, she just nods, sort of, in agreement. In her mind that city killed her family and there are no innocents. It's not logical, it's emotional, it's the revenge she's been seeking her entire life. The citizens of the city were free, not slaves, and therefore chose to slaughter her family--they were not innocents.

I didn't hate the episode. I'm not that married to the series. But I think some of you guys are stretching pretty far to come around to the writers' point of view. I guess I'm not completely invested in the back story so it just seems like you all are trying to force the puzzle pieces together. Based on my common sense from what I've observed it feels very forced, and forced too quickly.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Na... The whole Danys heel thing is just downright stupid. Her entire character since her bro got golded has been about helping the commoners.

Sure, she claimed to help the commoner. But even if her intentions were genuine, the tradeoff was always autocracy. At no point has she ever indicated that she was willing to share power or be accountable to anybody but herself. It has been clear since the first season that she wants absolute power.

At the end of the first season, beginning of the second, she said those who defy her will die. Remember this quote? "When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground." She anointed herself leader of the Dothraki and burned the Khals alive. When the Tarlys refused to bend the knee, she burned them alive as well.

She has never been a charitable figure, and to me, her desire to help the commoner was rooted in selfishness; how it helped her amass power. I think this has been fairly obvious.

Also found this interesting:

To appreciate what happened to King’s Landing, we need to move beyond the tactical and operational levels and think strategically. At the Army War College we think about strategy within an “Ends-Ways-Means” framework. Team Dragon’s Means include the army and the dragon; its Ways involve a siege or assault to destroy Cersei’s forces. But its Ends are not just the capture and defeat of Cersei Lannister: They are installing Daenerys Targaryen on the Iron Throne and giving her the ability to rule all of Westeros.

Political considerations necessarily infuse strategic calculations. For Queen Daenerys Targaryen, seizure of King’s Landing and the deposition of the usurper Cersei no longer cuts it. Aegon Targaryen (Jon Snow) has a better claim to the throne; he has a base of operations, a narrative of legitimacy, and his own army. Even if Jon doesn’t want to be King, people who dislike Daenerys will fight in his name. Dany is no longer the presumptive Targaryen heir and can no longer rely on her family’s right to the throne.

She can rely on Drogon, however. Her claim to the throne rests on demonstrating the power of her dragon. With Rhaegal—the dragon Jon had ridden—dead, she is uniquely capable of making such a claim. Daenerys need not be “mad” in order to see political value in burning King’s Landing to the ground. We impute a desire to burn things to hereditary mental instability in the Targaryens, but rational political calculation can lead her (and perhaps her Targaryen forebears) to the same conclusions. In terms that Thomas Schelling would surely appreciate, the destruction of King’s Landing represents a message of commitment on the part of Daenerys Targaryen to the Seven Kingdoms. It also represents her political maturation insofar as she is willing to do to King’s Landing what she could not imagine doing to the slaver-cities of Astapor and Yunkai.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/05/battle-kings-landing-got-military-analysis-tactics.html

Wow that's next level nerd stuff.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I didn't hate the episode. I'm not that married to the series. But I think some of you guys are stretching pretty far to come around to the writers' point of view. I guess I'm not completely invested in the back story so it just seems like you all are trying to force the puzzle pieces together. Based on my common sense from what I've observed it feels very forced, and forced too quickly.

The word stretching is a stretch in this case. These writers could not write a decent poem.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I didn't hate the episode. I'm not that married to the series. But I think some of you guys are stretching pretty far to come around to the writers' point of view. I guess I'm not completely invested in the back story so it just seems like you all are trying to force the puzzle pieces together. Based on my common sense from what I've observed it feels very forced, and forced too quickly.

The word stretching is a stretch in this case. These writers could not write a decent poem.

On the same note: minus the way too long epilogue, I actually liked the way true detective season 3 ended. It could have been at least 2 episodes shorter and gotten there just fine. But I’m ok with it.

In season 2 she talked about burning her enemies to the ground for having wronged her...She was always a crazy ass bitch.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I didn't hate the episode. I'm not that married to the series. But I think some of you guys are stretching pretty far to come around to the writers' point of view. I guess I'm not completely invested in the back story so it just seems like you all are trying to force the puzzle pieces together. Based on my common sense from what I've observed it feels very forced, and forced too quickly.

The word stretching is a stretch in this case. These writers could not write a decent poem.

Which is fine since we are not here for the poetry.

However, I would suggest they could do no worse than Vogon poetry,

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I appreciate you NWS but I'm not buying any of that. It was a transparent desperate attempt to turn her into the mad queen because they were running out of time. It was nonsensical and a complete break from the character they sold us for 8 seasons.

Was it "nonsensical" or "predictable"? You've said both and I don't think you can have it both ways hatch.

I liked it. The way it was shot was excellent. The battle scene wasn't too over the top and absurdly unbelievable like the E3. Ayra, one of the baddest mofos in Westoros, POV struggling to stay alive was awesome and showed the carnage being done. Cersi and Jamie reuniting was fitting. Celagane Bowl was fucking awesome. The one part I could of done without was Eron vs. Jamie. Eron was just a shit character IMO. Similar to the viper daughters. But whatever. Of course a lot of this was fan service. But you can't bitch about them doing this and then in the other breathe bitch about Ayra (not Jon) killing the Knight King or Ayra not killing Cersi or even Dany going full psycho.

It has been hinted at several times that Dany was just as crazy as her dad/brother and there was a good chance she was going to burn the city in the heat of the battle or to kill Cersi. But no one...and I mean no one...predicted she was going to burn the place down for the fuck of it. That was a bit of Red Wedding type of shit. She snapped, for all the reasons NW pointed out and it fit. She won, but still realized she was alone, hated everything about KL and victory wasn't enough. It's what psychos do. Classic GoT, doing something unexpected that is going to leave a pit in your stomach. My wife was not pleased. She wanted Dany to come out as the good guy and everyone to live happily ever after. I was shaking my head and saying "noooooooo" under my breathe. Fuck that, this is GoT. Burn 'em all. Sets up the finale as well.

What an insult to the red wedding. Uncalled for.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:What an insult to the red wedding. Uncalled for.

Talk about predictable...

No one saw the Red Wedding coming. No one saw Dany burning KL down to the ground for the fuck of it.