Is baseball in trouble or am I just a Tigers fan?

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-17, 13:21

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/columnists/bob-wojnowski/2019/06/16/we-knew-tigers-rebuild-would-ugly-but-gruesome/1471630001/

I used to watch 100+ games a year. Loved it. Couldn’t wait for the season to start. Watched zero games this year. I can’t tell if it’s because the Tigers are putrid or if the sport in general has taken a turn for the worse.

My thoughts

This 1-9 in the lineup cranking for the fences makes the game far less interesting.

The teams tanking, trading away stars for prospects is killing the game. There’s no continuity to teams and their rosters. Smaller market teams can’t hold onto a star player.

The league is doing away with traditions. The efforts to speed up the game are taking away what’s unique about the game. If you want to speed up the game revise the time it takes to switch a pitcher. The playoffs are brutal with all the pitching changes.

Or is it just the fact that my favorite team sent out a letter a few years back saying they are going to suck for about 4-5 years and check back in then to see a contender? Well guess what there’s about 1/3 of the league employing this strategy now so no guarantees it even works.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2019-06-17, 13:33

The only chance i watch a game is if I’m going

by **Floyd Robertson** 2019-06-17, 13:40

I don't think I've watched more than an inning of baseball since Verlander got traded. I don't even remember watching much between 2015 after losing the ALDS to the Orioles (seems like a lifetime ago), losing Scherzer and then losing Verlander.

by **tGreenWay** 2019-06-17, 13:52

I’ve only watched a couple innings at a time here and there. Part of that is because the Tigers are so bad, but also because in warmer weather there’s a lot to do. (Same reason this place slows down.) Add in how bad the new announcer is, and there isn’t a lot of incentive to watch on tv.

by **Watch Out Pylon!** 2019-06-17, 14:05

I'll catch parts of games here and there. I can't remember the last time I watched a baseball game from start to finish. It's kind of like golf. Just check in every once in a while to see how things are going.

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-17, 14:19

tGreenWay wrote:I’ve only watched a couple innings at a time here and there. Part of that is because the Tigers are so bad, but also because in warmer weather there’s a lot to do. (Same reason this place slows down.) Add in how bad the new announcer is, and there isn’t a lot of incentive to watch on tv.

I was obsessed. Used to listen to games while laying on a blanket in the park, have a game on at my desk or would have it on during my cook outs on the radio. Loved the rhythm and pace of the game. Regarding the announcers I talked to a relative about it last night and he said he isn't enjoying the new Tiger announcers either. It's funny I used to see people melt down about Prince Fielder, Jim Leyland or about how bad Rod was...or call the gm 'dumbrowski'. Once those people are gone you realize how good you had it with them.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2019-06-17, 14:37

I think it has evolved from America's Past Time into somewhat of a niche sport. I think there's still something ingrained in our psyche about going to a ballgame in the summer. Not sure if it's nostalgia, a natural slice of Americana, or just that going to a game is kind of a microcosm of a summer itself. You go there and just relax, eat a hot dog, have a beer or five. Just low-intensity, chilling.

But the actual sport, where you sit down and watch it a lot on TV? I think it's a pretty niche sport.

by **kingstonlake** 2019-06-17, 14:41

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-17, 14:50

kingstonlake wrote:Yes

Care to elaborate? Genuinely interested in your take.

by **tGreenWay** 2019-06-17, 15:36

steveschneider wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:Yes

Care to elaborate? Genuinely interested in your take.

Only because it’s not Cameron’s, amirite?

by **Cameron** 2019-06-17, 15:42

tGreenWay wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Care to elaborate? Genuinely interested in your take.

Only because it’s not Cameron’s, amirite?

Watch your ass, greenway.

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-17, 15:43

tGreenWay wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Care to elaborate? Genuinely interested in your take.

Only because it’s not Cameron’s, amirite?

I'd love to hear from Cameron as well.

by **Cameron** 2019-06-17, 15:45

steveschneider wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

Only because it’s not Cameron’s, amirite?

I'd love to hear from Cameron as well.

The Tigers suck, but baseball is also in trouble. Too many strikeouts, too much three-true-outcomes stuff. Nobody is entertained by walks. And they need to clone Javy Baez, every team should have at least one, if not 3 or 4.

by **tGreenWay** 2019-06-17, 16:13

Cameron wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

Only because it’s not Cameron’s, amirite?

Watch your ass, greenway.

Is baseball in trouble or am I just a Tigers fan? 502811600

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-17, 16:19

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I'd love to hear from Cameron as well.

The Tigers suck, but baseball is also in trouble. Too many strikeouts, too much three-true-outcomes stuff. Nobody is entertained by walks. And they need to clone Javy Baez, every team should have at least one, if not 3 or 4.

I feel like the decline happened really fast. Was it the Astros that changed the way teams approach the plate? I feel like the seasons prior to that when the Royals, Cubs, Mets, Nats, Red Sox and Giants were top tier teams they were all pretty fun to watch.

by **Cameron** 2019-06-17, 16:31

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:

The Tigers suck, but baseball is also in trouble. Too many strikeouts, too much three-true-outcomes stuff. Nobody is entertained by walks. And they need to clone Javy Baez, every team should have at least one, if not 3 or 4.

I feel like the decline happened really fast. Was it the Astros that changed the way teams approach the plate? I feel like the seasons prior to that when the Royals, Cubs, Mets, Nats, Red Sox and Giants were top tier teams they were all pretty fun to watch.

I don't know if it can really be blamed on any one team. Billy Beane brought analytics/sabermetrics to the mainstream with the Athletics, but they never really won anything. I think Theo Epstein embraced a lot of that stuff when putting together the Red Sox and Cubs rosters. Maddon definitely has a track record going back to Tampa of doing interesting sabermetrics related things with lineups and whatnot.

I think baseball is unique compared to other sports in that each action is so discrete, that it is (relatively) easier to say what the optimum play is in a given situation, whereas basketball and (to a lesser extent) football both have more moving parts and more "flow" between situations. Baseball lends itself well to the sort of statistical analysis and predictive modeling that has made the game more boring to the casual fan.

Edited to add: I think, when looking at the NFL, that there is a sort of stubbornness among the coaches that resists embracing things like going for two all the time and rarely punting. MLB, for all it's traditionalism, has seemed more willing to embrace new ideas like the shift, at least over the past decade. You see lots of that stuff in HS and NCAA, but the NFL still heeds conventional wisdom more often than not.

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-17, 16:35

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I feel like the decline happened really fast. Was it the Astros that changed the way teams approach the plate? I feel like the seasons prior to that when the Royals, Cubs, Mets, Nats, Red Sox and Giants were top tier teams they were all pretty fun to watch.

I don't know if it can really be blamed on any one team. Billy Beane brought analytics/sabermetrics to the mainstream with the Athletics, but they never really won anything. I think Theo Epstein embraced a lot of that stuff when putting together the Red Sox and Cubs rosters. Maddon definitely has a track record going back to Tampa of doing interesting sabermetrics related things with lineups and whatnot.

I think baseball is unique compared to other sports in that each action is so discrete, that it is (relatively) easier to say what the optimum play is in a given situation, whereas basketball and (to a lesser extent) football both have more moving parts and more "flow" between situations. Baseball lends itself well to the sort of statistical analysis and predictive modeling that has made the game more boring to the casual fan.

True. I guess I'm thinking that the Astros are the first team I can think of where 1-9 in the batting order is trying to hit a home run. I read an article a few season back about how the future of baseball is all about trying to live with strike outs. The velocity and quality of pitching is so good that the best chance to win is to swing for the fences, live with the strike outs and if you make contact with the ball your chances of scoring are better than trying to manufacture a run. In the last couple of years the number of home runs hit across the league has been off the charts.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2019-06-17, 16:48

I think it would help a lot if they cut the season in half. It’s hard to care very much about game 75 of 162 no matter how good your team is

by **Cameron** 2019-06-17, 16:53

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I don't know if it can really be blamed on any one team. Billy Beane brought analytics/sabermetrics to the mainstream with the Athletics, but they never really won anything. I think Theo Epstein embraced a lot of that stuff when putting together the Red Sox and Cubs rosters. Maddon definitely has a track record going back to Tampa of doing interesting sabermetrics related things with lineups and whatnot.

I think baseball is unique compared to other sports in that each action is so discrete, that it is (relatively) easier to say what the optimum play is in a given situation, whereas basketball and (to a lesser extent) football both have more moving parts and more "flow" between situations. Baseball lends itself well to the sort of statistical analysis and predictive modeling that has made the game more boring to the casual fan.

True. I guess I'm thinking that the Astros are the first team I can think of where 1-9 in the batting order is trying to hit a home run. I read an article a few season back about how the future of baseball is all about trying to live with strike outs. The velocity and quality of pitching is so good that the best chance to win is to swing for the fences, live with the strike outs and if you make contact with the ball your chances of scoring are better than trying to manufacture a run. In the last couple of years the number of home runs hit across the league has been off the charts.

Of the three true outcomes, home run is by far my favorite. I could see arguments for lowering the mound or moving it back. I don't like shrinking the strike zone, because then there's more walks. But I agree that modern pitching getting too good is part of the problem.

by **Cameron** 2019-06-17, 16:55

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I think it would help a lot if they cut the season in half. It’s hard to care very much about game 75 of 162 no matter how good your team is

That might help each individual game, but the owners would never go for it. Plus, I think there is some appeal in the almost daily nature of baseball. I guess it just depends if the MLB wants to try and get more casual fans in, or if they would rather preserve what the die-hards already love.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2019-06-17, 16:55

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:

The Tigers suck, but baseball is also in trouble. Too many strikeouts, too much three-true-outcomes stuff. Nobody is entertained by walks. And they need to clone Javy Baez, every team should have at least one, if not 3 or 4.

I feel like the decline happened really fast. Was it the Astros that changed the way teams approach the plate? I feel like the seasons prior to that when the Royals, Cubs, Mets, Nats, Red Sox and Giants were top tier teams they were all pretty fun to watch.

Maybe it's gotten worse now, if you're feeling that recently, but I feel like this same question could have been asked 20 years ago. Perhaps it's just my perception, but it seems that the decline/shift in people's interests started in the mid-late 90s sometime. Or maybe it started then, leveled off for 15-20 years, and now is hitting another slide? (pun partially intended)

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2019-06-17, 16:59

Cameron wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I think it would help a lot if they cut the season in half. It’s hard to care very much about game 75 of 162 no matter how good your team is

That might help each individual game, but the owners would never go for it. Plus, I think there is some appeal in the almost daily nature of baseball. I guess it just depends if the MLB wants to try and get more casual fans in, or if they would rather preserve what the die-hards already love.

Oh I’m sure they’d never go for it. What with the historic nature of baseball and the records and all that

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-17, 17:15

MiamiSpartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I feel like the decline happened really fast. Was it the Astros that changed the way teams approach the plate? I feel like the seasons prior to that when the Royals, Cubs, Mets, Nats, Red Sox and Giants were top tier teams they were all pretty fun to watch.
Maybe it's gotten worse now, if you're feeling that recently, but I feel like this same question could have been asked 20 years ago. Perhaps it's just my perception, but it seems that the decline/shift in people's interests started in the mid-late 90s sometime. Or maybe it started then, leveled off for 15-20 years, and now is hitting another slide? (pun partially intended)

I thought the 90's had some amazing moments. The Yankees/Mariners series in 95 was epic. I remember being loaded at Cedar Village and watching the Blue Jays win the world series with a walkoff home run. The home run races were always pretty interesting even though it was so obvious everyone was roided up.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2019-06-17, 17:32

steveschneider wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
Maybe it's gotten worse now, if you're feeling that recently, but I feel like this same question could have been asked 20 years ago. Perhaps it's just my perception, but it seems that the decline/shift in people's interests started in the mid-late 90s sometime. Or maybe it started then, leveled off for 15-20 years, and now is hitting another slide? (pun partially intended)

I thought the 90's had some amazing moments. The Yankees/Mariners series in 95 was epic. I remember being loaded at Cedar Village and watching the Blue Jays win the world series with a walkoff home run. The home run races were always pretty interesting even though it was so obvious everyone was roided up.

But then there was the 1994 World Series that didn't even happen. Maybe that was what really started to erode it. I just remember a very different vibe about baseball pre and post 94. During the McGwire/Sosa home run battle (and I was into that like most people), I remember all this talk about them saving baseball, and getting the interest back after the strike. But then that didn't really last into the following years. But a couple of good World Series here or there doesn't change the fact that interest had dropped off.

Or heck, maybe interest didn't drop off nationally. I have no idea what ratings or other polls baseball was getting. Maybe it was just my own interests and those of people around me that shifted. I wasn't like, "Fuck these guys for striking and cancelling the WS, I'm done with baseball" or anything, I just gradually would care less and less throughout the 90s.

by **Cameron** 2019-06-18, 08:11

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Cameron wrote:

That might help each individual game, but the owners would never go for it. Plus, I think there is some appeal in the almost daily nature of baseball. I guess it just depends if the MLB wants to try and get more casual fans in, or if they would rather preserve what the die-hards already love.

Oh I’m sure they’d never go for it. What with the historic nature of baseball and the records and all that

The owners don't care about records, but they would never voluntarily cut their revenue in half.

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-18, 08:37

MiamiSpartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I thought the 90's had some amazing moments. The Yankees/Mariners series in 95 was epic. I remember being loaded at Cedar Village and watching the Blue Jays win the world series with a walkoff home run. The home run races were always pretty interesting even though it was so obvious everyone was roided up.
But then there was the 1994 World Series that didn't even happen. Maybe that was what really started to erode it. I just remember a very different vibe about baseball pre and post 94. During the McGwire/Sosa home run battle (and I was into that like most people), I remember all this talk about them saving baseball, and getting the interest back after the strike. But then that didn't really last into the following years. But a couple of good World Series here or there doesn't change the fact that interest had dropped off.

Or heck, maybe interest didn't drop off nationally. I have no idea what ratings or other polls baseball was getting. Maybe it was just my own interests and those of people around me that shifted. I wasn't like, "Fuck these guys for striking and cancelling the WS, I'm done with baseball" or anything, I just gradually would care less and less throughout the 90s.

Yeah, the strike and the changes to free agency probably changed things a lot. If you go back to the 80's just about every team had a player that was really good and just about a house hold name. Now a days seems like just about every good player ends up on a big market team even if they are just on the bench as depth or will end up released.

There's a lot of dumb shit added to the game as well.

No more home plate collisions. Reviews are tedious and ended manager/ump arguments. Pitchers are so dominant the ball doesn't go in play anymore. No more taking out the guy at 2b with a good hard slide. No more intentional walks. Too many pitcher changes. An inning can talk almost an hour....

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2019-06-18, 09:13

I agree with you steve but intentional walks? Arguments? Wrecking dudes legs with slides? These are bad reasons steve.

by **Wally Fairway** 2019-06-18, 09:28

Couple of points
- all my friends who are Michigan fans are not telling me how great baseball is, so that must mean something
- I thankfully have moved past the Tigers and have been an Astro's fan since the 80's, so it is exciting to follow them (and JV - who got the ring he deserved)

Baseball will be fine - all sports suck at replay, free agency affects all pro sports but Detroit might have the worst owners between this generation of the Ilitch family and the Ford family

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-18, 09:39

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I agree with you steve but intentional walks? Arguments? Wrecking dudes legs with slides? These are bad reasons steve.

There have been intentional walks where the better have jumped in and hit the ball or the pitcher misses the catcher. These special moments add to the game.

I've seen guys go into second with good hard slides and get called out because the ump didn't like the look of the slide. And what's wrong with you? A good manager ump ejection is usually good comedy relief.

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-18, 11:01

Zero interests in keeping up with the Cape Cod league this year.
If this the best they have to offer for Tiger fans these days then they are in big trouble.
[tw]1140991504128925696[/tw]

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2019-06-18, 11:22

Cape cod league Is baseball in trouble or am I just a Tigers fan? 1966794946

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2019-06-18, 11:45

steveschneider wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I agree with you steve but intentional walks? Arguments? Wrecking dudes legs with slides? These are bad reasons steve.

There have been intentional walks where the better have jumped in and hit the ball or the pitcher misses the catcher. These special moments add to the game.

I've seen guys go into second with good hard slides and get called out because the ump didn't like the look of the slide. And what's wrong with you? A good manager ump ejection is usually good comedy relief.

Miggy did that once 20 years ago and that’s about it. Whatever. Managers still get ejected all the time, gsrdenhire 5 times this year alone including Saturday.... and I have no interest in seeing dudes legs get shredded sorry

by **Floyd Robertson** 2019-06-18, 11:46

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Cape cod league

Not sure why that's so funny. Is baseball in trouble or am I just a Tigers fan? 502811600

by **Watch Out Pylon!** 2019-06-18, 11:49

I really don't give a fuck about the Tigers you guys. Can we talk about something else?

by **steveschneider** 2019-06-18, 14:14

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

There have been intentional walks where the better have jumped in and hit the ball or the pitcher misses the catcher. These special moments add to the game.

I've seen guys go into second with good hard slides and get called out because the ump didn't like the look of the slide. And what's wrong with you? A good manager ump ejection is usually good comedy relief.

Miggy did that once 20 years ago and that’s about it. Whatever. Managers still get ejected all the time, gsrdenhire 5 times this year alone including Saturday.... and I have no interest in seeing dudes legs get shredded sorry

I was watching a game once and this guy that could throw in the upper 90's had to intentionally walk someone and it was a riot. These guys are such creatures of habit that it clearly threw him out of his comfort zone. It made me feel good about myself because as a guy just sitting on his couch drinking beer I thought to myself 'hey, with one hour of practice I could intentionally walk that batter better than this pitcher'

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