Can Warren or Sanders beat Trump?

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Sounds like you are going off a gut feeling. I've noted that you feel this way.

I’ll add another. His only “message” is “I’m not trump.” That’s not enough. .

DWags wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_warren-6251.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-6250.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

I still think trump voters don’t tell the surveys they’re voting for him.

kingstonlake wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Why do I like him? I think he's qualified, I think he has a health care plan that will make our system better and he has the best shot to win the electoral map which is more important that winning the popular vote.

Steve, stop focusing on things like electability. If you like Gillibrand  vote for her because electability doesn’t matter. And why all the focusing on an electoral map? You act like it’s the foundation on determining a winner in a general election.

DWags wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:


I’ll add another. His only “message” is “I’m not trump.” That’s not enough. .

You’re right, however, not being Trump, imo, is plenty for millions of voters. I don’t know that you can win, but I’m thinking if they. threw me out there with my spartan shoes against him I pull 25 million votes immediately. The rest need to be earned.

steveschneider wrote:

DWags wrote:

You’re right, however, not being Trump, imo, is plenty for millions of voters. I don’t know that you can win, but I’m thinking if they. threw me out there with my spartan shoes against him I pull 25 million votes immediately. The rest need to be earned.

Not sure why everyone in this thread is glossing over his health care plan. It’s well thought out, probably the best one to win over the voters and brings more to the table than I’m not Trump. I love Warren and Sanders, but I fear most voters hate entitlement programs like paying back student loans, reparations, a green new deal and any health care plan they fear will destroy the private insurance industry. I live in a very blue area and am in a hip woke bubble but I don’t think it will win.

Cameron wrote:Steve loves Biden. Just one more reason steve is stupid.

Cameron wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I get a really really weird feeling about the primaries. On one hand I don’t think the general public is ready for a fund everybody and everything candidate like sanders or warren. Their projects or positions are incredibly expensive. I’m all in though for either of them though. Money doesn’t matter anymore. The cost of things just isn’t relevant. BE it healthcare, tuition, food, tax breaks for corporations, the rich, subsidies for farmers, big oil etc. it doesn’t really matter anymore. Just not sure the public is willing to switch allegiance from subsidizing corporate scum bags to funding our people. The stigmatism is still out there that funding programs for citizens is funding people who don’t want to work or pay for anything. Merica.

If the 2020 presidential election were held today, 54 percent of registered voters say that they would vote for former Vice President Joe Biden, while only 38 percent would vote for President Trump. Matchups against other top Democrats show:

   Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders topping Trump 53 - 39 percent;
   Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren ahead of Trump 52 - 40 percent;
   California Sen. Kamala Harris beating Trump 51 - 40 percent;
   South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg leading with 49 percent to Trump's 40 percent.

Floyd Robertson wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I get a really really weird feeling about the primaries. On one hand I don’t think the general public is ready for a fund everybody and everything candidate like sanders or warren. Their projects or positions are incredibly expensive. I’m all in though for either of them though. Money doesn’t matter anymore. The cost of things just isn’t relevant. BE it healthcare, tuition, food, tax breaks for corporations, the rich, subsidies for farmers, big oil etc. it doesn’t really matter anymore. Just not sure the public is willing to switch allegiance from subsidizing corporate scum bags to funding our people. The stigmatism is still out there that funding programs for citizens is funding people who don’t want to work or pay for anything. Merica.

Sort of sums up why I'm still with longshot #VoiceOfDoom Yang except he's younger and not angry like Bernie.

Floyd Robertson wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I get a really really weird feeling about the primaries. On one hand I don’t think the general public is ready for a fund everybody and everything candidate like sanders or warren. Their projects or positions are incredibly expensive. I’m all in though for either of them though. Money doesn’t matter anymore. The cost of things just isn’t relevant.  BE it healthcare, tuition, food, tax breaks for corporations, the rich, subsidies for farmers, big oil etc. it doesn’t really matter anymore. Just not sure the public is willing to switch allegiance from subsidizing corporate scum bags to funding our people. The stigmatism is still out there that funding programs for citizens is funding people who don’t want to work or pay for anything. Merica.

Sort of sums up why I'm still with longshot #VoiceOfDoom Yang except he's younger and not angry like Bernie.

kingstonlake wrote:I get a really really weird feeling about the primaries. On one hand I don’t think the general public is ready for a fund everybody and everything candidate like sanders or warren. Their projects or positions are incredibly expensive. I’m all in though for either of them though. Money doesn’t matter anymore. The cost of things just isn’t relevant. BE it healthcare, tuition, food, tax breaks for corporations, the rich, subsidies for farmers, big oil etc. it doesn’t really matter anymore. Just not sure the public is willing to switch allegiance from subsidizing corporate scum bags to funding our people. The stigmatism is still out there that funding programs for citizens is funding people who don’t want to work or pay for anything. Merica.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Floyd Robertson wrote:

Sort of sums up why I'm still with longshot #VoiceOfDoom Yang except he's younger and not angry like Bernie.

Is someone going to yell at Floyd for supporting a candidate who cannot win Wyoming based on the last poll I saw or should I

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I think your error is thinking that Democrats need to worry about the votes of your white male family members without college degrees steve. They don’t. And even if they did, it wouldn’t matter, they’re not getting their vote anyway. Fuck em.

Cameron wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Is someone going to yell at Floyd for supporting a candidate who cannot win Wyoming based on the last poll I saw or should I

Aren't you the one who says to support the candidate you like most without regard for polling or electability?

#YangGang

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I think your error is thinking that Democrats need to worry about the votes of your white male family members without college degrees steve. They don’t. And even if they did, it wouldn’t matter, they’re not getting their vote anyway. Fuck em.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Though, missing not being serious aside.... I don’t say that you should disregard electability. I say that electability is not a real thing that exists, at least not in how people refer to it. It’s an invented concept made up by cable news pundits to get you to watch their television programs.

kingstonlake wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Though, missing not being serious aside.... I don’t say that you should disregard electability. I say that electability is not a real thing that exists, at least not in how people refer to it. It’s an invented concept made up by cable news pundits to get you to watch their television programs.

Hard disagree. Most here disregarded the potential of Trump winning the primary let alone the general because he was an idiot and novelty act. It turned out that he had an electability factor we discounted. Racism. The media and TV pundits didn’t create his racism or electability factor. It obviously was always there. It was just never cultivated by actually standing on a stage and displaying it for everyone to see and hear.

Rocinante wrote:The D party has a diverging path. Either they go the old way and take back the non college educated white males in PA, MI, and especially WI, or they go hard for some of the Sun Belt states that are starting to turn Blue. If they take the second route (they likely won’t), Sanders or more likely Warren has a great chance to win, if they go the first route, it’s a lot harder no matter who is the nominee, but Biden probably has an edge in his ability to beat Trump. I advocate for expanding the democratic electorate. It’s more risky, but it’s more permanent. Texas and Louisiana will eventually turn and then it’s hard for the Republicans to win any presidential election. Unless hey do some dirty shit and change the rules... which... they’re Republicans so...

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Electability is determined by who gets the most votes, not some talking head in a box on your tv. not some poll. If everyone just votes for who they like then we will find out who is most electable.

Trump was the most electable republican, obviously. But no one would have said that in August 2015. They would have said the soft racists like jeb and Cruz.

Floyd Robertson wrote:August 28, 2019 - All Top Dems Beat Trump As Voters' Economic Outlook Dims Quinnipiac University Poll Finds; Dem Primary Stays Stable With Biden Holding The Lead

If the 2020 presidential election were held today, 54 percent of registered voters say that they would vote for former Vice President Joe Biden, while only 38 percent would vote for President Trump. Matchups against other top Democrats show:

   Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders topping Trump 53 - 39 percent;
   Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren ahead of Trump 52 - 40 percent;
   California Sen. Kamala Harris beating Trump 51 - 40 percent;
   South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg leading with 49 percent to Trump's 40 percent.

kingstonlake wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Electability is determined by who gets the most votes, not some talking head in a box on your tv. not some poll. If everyone just votes for who they like then we will find out who is most electable.

Trump was the most electable republican, obviously. But no one would have said that in August 2015. They would have said the soft racists like jeb and Cruz.

I think you’re a bit to much “all in” on the word electability. Certain candidates are unelectable with certain demographics. I think electability is a real thing. The person getting the most votes isn’t “electability”. Especially as it relates to a vastly diverse party like the Democratic Party. It may be what you think it is in the GOP. There’s very little diversity.

kingstonlake wrote:I get a really really weird feeling about the primaries. On one hand I don’t think the general public is ready for a fund everybody and everything candidate like sanders or warren. Their projects or positions are incredibly expensive. I’m all in though for either of them though. Money doesn’t matter anymore. The cost of things just isn’t relevant. BE it healthcare, tuition, food, tax breaks for corporations, the rich, subsidies for farmers, big oil etc. it doesn’t really matter anymore. Just not sure the public is willing to switch allegiance from subsidizing corporate scum bags to funding our people. The stigmatism is still out there that funding programs for citizens is funding people who don’t want to work or pay for anything. Merica.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I get a really really weird feeling about the primaries. On one hand I don’t think the general public is ready for a fund everybody and everything candidate like sanders or warren. Their projects or positions are incredibly expensive. I’m all in though for either of them though. Money doesn’t matter anymore. The cost of things just isn’t relevant. BE it healthcare, tuition, food, tax breaks for corporations, the rich, subsidies for farmers, big oil etc. it doesn’t really matter anymore. Just not sure the public is willing to switch allegiance from subsidizing corporate scum bags to funding our people. The stigmatism is still out there that funding programs for citizens is funding people who don’t want to work or pay for anything. Merica.

Here's the thing for me. People act like the President actually has power to pass laws. Like, "Oh, Bernie and Warren are going to institute these huge socialist programs which will raise my taxes." No, no they won't. Not unless at least a certain 269 other people, each with their own jobs on the line in answering to their constituents, agree with them. The ideas that people fear most will never get passed.

Granted, you have someone like Trump, who practically thinks that he can make laws without Congress, and when that doesn't work, does what he can to try to bully both sides of the aisle to do what he wants, but he hasn't really had a ton of success with that. And I don't think any reasonable person would think that Bernie, Warren, or someone else would behave in the same manner.

This isn't a new phenomenon of people thinking that a President has more power than he does. It's always kind of baffled me.

Rocinante wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Here's the thing for me. People act like the President actually has power to pass laws. Like, "Oh, Bernie and Warren are going to institute these huge socialist programs which will raise my taxes." No, no they won't. Not unless at least a certain 269 other people, each with their own jobs on the line in answering to their constituents, agree with them. The ideas that people fear most will never get passed.

Granted, you have someone like Trump, who practically thinks that he can make laws without Congress, and when that doesn't work, does what he can to try to bully both sides of the aisle to do what he wants, but he hasn't really had a ton of success with that. And I don't think any reasonable person would think that Bernie, Warren, or someone else would behave in the same manner.

This isn't a new phenomenon of people thinking that a President has more power than he does. It's always kind of baffled me.

The president has enormous power. Since Reagan congress has been abdicating power to him and it went all in after 9/11. Trump has been very successful implementing his agenda in my opinion. EOs are essentially laws now. Interpretation of law to mean whatever you want it to mean when deciding on regulatory changes seems to have no boundaries. Congress chooses not to work in a bipartisan manner to pass laws or check presidential overstep so almost nothing gets done. They are perfectly happy appearing to be working rather than actually working. Whether the next president doesn’t do things like Trump depends on whether they have a cooperative congress. But presidents never give back power. So it will take congress to decide to take it back. I don’t know if that’s realistic to expect.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

I think you’re a bit to much “all in” on the word electability. Certain candidates are unelectable with certain demographics. I think electability is a real thing. The person getting the most votes isn’t “electability”. Especially as it relates to a vastly diverse party like the Democratic Party. It may be what you think it is in the GOP. There’s very little diversity.

What demographics and which candidates? And based on what?

kingstonlake wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

What demographics and which candidates? And based on what?

All you have to do is look at voter demographics and participation rates. The GOP basically only has to please whites and supposed Christians. As long as you scream anti abortion and guns they will show up and vote. It’s much more complicated in the Democratic Party.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

All you have to do is look at voter demographics and participation rates. The GOP basically only has to please whites and supposed Christians. As long as you scream anti abortion and guns they will show up and vote. It’s much more complicated in the Democratic Party.

That’s not very specific